PSA To PVP Gunnery Commandos

[NeoRinTinTin]

If you want to be taken seriously in PVP just bite the bullet and switch to assault spec. Gunnery is "viable" in pvp of course, but you're just gimping yourself and your team. The few things I missed from the gunnery tree is the half assed stockstrike knockback/interrupt, improved concussive charge, and healing recharge cells. I gladly gave those up though to be able to move and kite my opponents. Being able DPS longer means being able to survive longer and vice versa. I no longer fear operatives or assassins because there's little they can interrupt and I'm actually allowed to turn around and hit back.

 

I didn't switch to assault for a while because I heard how much better vanguards were better in it and because I was too cheap and lazy to respec, but even if assault vanguards are be better than assault commandos, assault commandos are still better than gunnery commandos in pvp.

 

P.S. The main thing we're lacking is a real interrupt, that's undeniable.

Edited August 27, 2012 by NeoRinTinTin

[ArchangelLBC]

If you want to be taken seriously in PVP just bite the bullet and switch to assault spec. Gunnery is "viable" in pvp of course, but you're just gimping yourself and your team. The few things I missed from the gunnery tree is the half assed stockstrike knockback/interrupt, improved concussive charge, and healing recharge cells. I gladly gave those up though to be able to move and kite my opponents. Being able DPS longer means being able to survive longer and vice versa. I no longer fear operatives or assassins because there's little they can interrupt and I'm actually allowed to turn around and hit back.

 

I didn't switch to assault for a while because I heard how much better vanguards were better in it and because I was too cheap and lazy to respec, but even if assault vanguards are be better than assault commandos, assault commandos are still better than gunnery commandos in pvp.

 

P.S. The main thing we're lacking is a real interrupt, that's undeniable.

 

Honestly even in assault spec the thing I think we're missing is an interrupt immunity (and leaps for that matter) or a baseline snare/root. Lack of interrupt certainly doesn't help with killing healers though I'll grant you that.

[Luceon]

Only charged bolts, full auto, and plasma grenade can really be interrupted, but you don't need full auto to finish to take hib off CD and plasma grenade should mainly be used with tech override because of the long cast time. As a ranged class we don't need a gap closer like vanguards have which are closer to a melee class. A guaranteed snare would be nice, but I'd definitely want an interrupt first and foremost to take down healers more efficiently and to be more useful in raids.

 

He wasn't saying we need leaps, but that we needed immunity to leaps. Just to clarify. As for my input on the subject, well I simply hate the idea of switching specs constantly just to PVP. I love Gunnery and I do PVE more than PVP, however having to (or even suggesting) switch my specs over and over again is just asking too much (not saying the OP was saying this).

[ArchangelLBC]

Only charged bolts, full auto, and plasma grenade can really be interrupted, but you don't need full auto to finish to take hib off CD and plasma grenade should mainly be used with tech override because of the long cast time. As a ranged class we don't need a gap closer like vanguards have which are closer to a melee class. A guaranteed snare would be nice, but I'd definitely want an interrupt first and foremost to take down healers more efficiently and to be more useful in raids.

 

And charged bolts is still used for filler if you want to reset HiB more often than once every 15 seconds or when FA fails to reset it.

 

Such an immunity would also VASTLY help gunnery in PVP as well.

 

The utility of interrupts in raids is vastly overrated. I guarantee I would not be brought to one more additional raid by having an interrupt than I do now when I don't have it. Again I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice. Just that the interrupt is not even in my top 3 of things we need in PVP. I have a class with a 12s interrupt and a class with an 8s interrupt and if they're intent on chain casting heals interrupting one is just going to get them to go to another at which point you need your stun or knock back.

[oaceen]

i don't see how you're doing better against operatives since, against an assault commando, they can just cleanse, heal without fear of interrupts, and sigh as they take no meaningful damage whatsoever.

[Delaoron]

I'm a rank 92 almost min-maxed Commando and after the latest changes to the Gunnery tree I respecced to it after running around in AS for quite a while. The combination of procced Full Auto + Demo Round + HIB is just too strong.

I am worse in 1on1s against melees (but stronger against sorcs/snipers), sure. But that's not my job. My job is killing enemies asap as long as I am alive and I do that job better than AS imho.

Gunnery has its issues, sure. But AS has even greater ones. It kinda feels clunky when there's no HIB proc. When I try to kill a healer as AS, it's normally sth like this: IR, HIB, AP, FA, HIB (hopefully). But that's normally just not enough dmg and it's pretty resourceheavy. After this rotation you can only spam Hammer Shot or CB and hope for another HIB proc.

Gunnery instead: 3 x GR, FA, DR, HIB. A sorc healer is kinda dead by then with some crits.

 

AS has also the same problems with interrupts like Gunnery. If you have everything on cd and try to reset HIB's cd by using CB and it's interrupted you can only use Hammer Shot for 4s. As a Gunnery you can at least use CB instead of GR or Stockstrike cause of the Knockback.

 

So, my conclusion is that both specs aren't that great in PvP but Gunnery gets the job done better for me personally.

Most people don't cleanse and I can keep reapplying dots.

 

Gunnery commandos are just sitting ducks once they get behind you.

Good luck reapplying dots when IR costs 3 ammo. Besides, when we are talking about bad enemies, Gunnery is better anyway cause bad enemies don't interrupt.

When I see that some Merc made me burn first thing I do is cleanse myself. That's a dpsloss for me but an even higher one for the Merc. To use his heavy hitter HIB he first has to use a dot. (IR with 3 ammo or Rapid Shots with low dmg and no 100% chance).

[Luceon]

I would like to add that it is also a play style difference. Some people may be able to play both specs with relative ease, but for others they simply outshine as Gunnery or as Assault. I have always been better as Gunnery than Assault, and frankly when I did PVP the only way I found myself getting ran over is if the other player out gears me (I do not PVP that much anymore, so I am under geared) or if there are like 3 against me. Other than that I am usually at the top of my game and pose a threat to most anyone I run into. I played as Assault for awhile and I was simply not as effective. Granted I did do more damage than usual but that was simply because I was burning people to keep them from taking points. Edited August 29, 2012 by Luceon

[oaceen]

Only commandos and scoundrels and their mirror classes can cleanse.

 

ok, but i was specifically talking about operatives....

[niiall]

I'm a rank 92 almost min-maxed Commando and after the latest changes to the Gunnery tree I respecced to it after running around in AS for quite a while. The combination of procced Full Auto + Demo Round + HIB is just too strong.

I am worse in 1on1s against melees (but stronger against sorcs/snipers), sure. But that's not my job. My job is killing enemies asap as long as I am alive and I do that job better than AS imho.

Gunnery has its issues, sure. But AS has even greater ones. It kinda feels clunky when there's no HIB proc. When I try to kill a healer as AS, it's normally sth like this: IR, HIB, AP, FA, HIB (hopefully). But that's normally just not enough dmg and it's pretty resourceheavy. After this rotation you can only spam Hammer Shot or CB and hope for another HIB proc.

Gunnery instead: 3 x GR, FA, DR, HIB. A sorc healer is kinda dead by then with some crits.

 

AS has also the same problems with interrupts like Gunnery. If you have everything on cd and try to reset HIB's cd by using CB and it's interrupted you can only use Hammer Shot for 4s. As a Gunnery you can at least use CB instead of GR or Stockstrike cause of the Knockback.

 

So, my conclusion is that both specs aren't that great in PvP but Gunnery gets the job done better for me personally.

 

Good luck reapplying dots when IR costs 3 ammo. Besides, when we are talking about bad enemies, Gunnery is better anyway cause bad enemies don't interrupt.

When I see that some Merc made me burn first thing I do is cleanse myself. That's a dpsloss for me but an even higher one for the Merc. To use his heavy hitter HIB he first has to use a dot. (IR with 3 ammo or Rapid Shots with low dmg and no 100% chance).

 

 

 

completely agree here, as said in another thread i am running a gunnery trooper , doing ranked aswell now. 1860 aim and 600 power mean very powerfull single target dps. with full auto damage proc up, on light armour it can do 9-12k dps in 3 secs. and 5300 crit hib

 

the playstyle does not suit everyone but they are not a useless spec. and we may even be headed for a buff in the next balance

 

Can i solo an equally geared marauder. NO, but thats not the point, can i burn key targets very quickly. Yes !

[oaceen]

Unlike gunnery commandos, assault commandos can chase down operative healers. Los or simply running beyond 30m will nullify most of a gunnery commando's DPS because of casting. Cleanse uses up energy, a GCD, and goes on CD while an assault commando can still chase and keep serious pressure on an operative and it'll be a matter of who can proc and manage their ammo better.

 

As for a DPS operative, a huge chunk of their burst requires them being behind you. You can turn around and move in assault spec giving you a chance to fight back and avoid a second hard hitting burst from them. This also makes commandos more viable as guards on nodes against stealth classes.

why did you reply to the same post twice with conflicting arguments?

 

 

as for turning, you can rotate in place just as easily without moving no matter what spec or class, so i don't know what you're trying to say.

[Luceon]

I was replying to your post specifically because you didn't seem satisfied. What part of my post is conflicting exactly?

 

Manually turning or moving in gunnery interrupts casts which is the core of its rotation.

 

No it does not, you can turn till you get dizzy and your cast bar will keep on rolling. Only when you move from the spot you are in is when the bar is disrupted. I am beginning to wonder just how well you played as gunnery anyway, maybe it simply isn't your style and mobility is. Something as simple as that can be a determining factor in your results.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Luceon

[Luceon]

I'll stand corrected with that point, but I'd wager an assault commando can handle any melee dps better than a gunnery commando 1 on 1 especially operatives and assassins.

 

At the end of the day I'd rather be a gimped vanguard than a crippled gunslinger.

 

I think anyone can agree 1 on 1 Gunnery is at a large disadvantage. However it still stands to preferences, as I am ok with not being good at 1 v 1 but can mow into a group and do large damage or be able to protect a node (which I have become good at). I know that I am very effective when I shadow my team, attack from a distance, or better yet above my targets, and just spread damage to enemies attacking my team.

[TheMB]

1-on-1 with any spec'd Commando should be avoid at all times, unless your opponent is very bad. Although some will say that they can handle a 1v1 situation with no problem I still advise to avoid such needless fights and call for help. You'll never know when an unexpected visitor will show up to the fight and take the objective that you thought you could handle all by yourself.

 

Both specs have their pros and cons, for instance Assault lacks more utility than Gunnery has (which is very little but still more than Assault). Assault is a pure single target heavy hitter, while Gunnery is also a single target hitter but also offers team support with shorter cool downs on some abilities. I prefer to play Gunnery almost because of the utility itself but also it does some serious damage when geared well. Assault, to me, is alright but I feel way more squishy than I should be. Yeah your mobile and yeah you have a kitting mechanic but so do the other classes that last longer than 2 secs and isn't proc'd by weapon damage (16% chance I believe).

 

I have fought against many marauders, sins, and ops to know that even if your spec'd Gunnery you can still kite if you play smart and learn to use LoS, your utility, and the map to your advantage. Being a Commando is about surviving your fights and living long enough to help your team out afterwards.

[klham]

I made the switch from Gunnery to Assault yesterday and PvP gameplay is suddenly much more satisfying and actually enjoyable. I was starting to give up because I was getting focused continually by the same maras/juggs over and over agiain (free kill i guess). Being able to run AND deal meaningful damage makes a big difference. Ammo mgt is a bigger issue, and I'm still at a disadvantage 1v1 with melee but it isn't quite as bad, and I even won a few. Still feels squishy though, still miss the interrupt, and still can't close gaps easily. Gunnery would be more viable if it shared some of the "turret" advantages of the Gunslinger cover mechanic (hunker down, immunity to jumps). Also, I'm fairly certain my Gunslinger was able to turn around and use all her abilities at her 6 o'clock. Gunnery can't cast behind in the 5-7 o'clock radius. Keyboard rotation isn't fast enough for good melee to keep casting. Will play Assault on my Vanguard before making final judgment on viability, but I've read that Commando Assault is still second to Vanguard Assault.

[Luceon]

I made the switch from Gunnery to Assault yesterday and PvP gameplay is suddenly much more satisfying and actually enjoyable. I was starting to give up because I was getting focused continually by the same maras/juggs over and over agiain (free kill i guess). Being able to run AND deal meaningful damage makes a big difference. Ammo mgt is a bigger issue, and I'm still at a disadvantage 1v1 with melee but it isn't quite as bad, and I even won a few. Still feels squishy though, still miss the interrupt, and still can't close gaps easily. Gunnery would be more viable if it shared some of the "turret" advantages of the Gunslinger cover mechanic (hunker down, immunity to jumps). Also, I'm fairly certain my Gunslinger was able to turn around and use all her abilities at her 6 o'clock. Gunnery can't cast behind in the 5-7 o'clock radius. Keyboard rotation isn't fast enough for good melee to keep casting. Will play Assault on my Vanguard before making final judgment on viability, but I've read that Commando Assault is still second to Vanguard Assault.

 

I am glad you found something that works for you but I will say this again, commando can turn in place. Both manual and letting the cast do it. When you stand still and cast at a target your character will turn to follow him/her, or if you think your better and more accurate, you can turn yourself while casting.

[Jherad]

Yeah, as gunnery you need to learn to take your finger off that right mouse button when some silly bunnyhopper starts running circles around you. You'll track them just fine as you're casting (unless you get rooted/stunned, which screws anyone).

[klham]

Yeah, as gunnery you need to learn to take your finger off that right mouse button when some silly bunnyhopper starts running circles around you. You'll track them just fine as you're casting (unless you get rooted/stunned, which screws anyone).

 

Yes true, but I'm pretty sure you need to already be casting when they enter your 5-7 o'clock zone, and your Commando will track them. And when you switch casted abilities (e.g. from grav round to full auto) you'll need to re-orient yourself towards the target. Otherwise manually rotating (like you must when using that AoE directional ion blast) isn't quick enough. I've fired Full Auto at a 45-degree angle before, but not 180 unless they moved into that position while the ability was already going off. The Gunslinger mechanic is more forgiving - i can switch targets and abilities directly behind me and the GS toon just twist around unnaturally.

[oaceen]

Yes true, but I'm pretty sure you need to already be casting when they enter your 5-7 o'clock zone, and your Commando will track them. And when you switch casted abilities (e.g. from grav round to full auto) you'll need to re-orient yourself towards the target. Otherwise manually rotating (like you must when using that AoE directional ion blast) isn't quick enough. I've fired Full Auto at a 45-degree angle before, but not 180 unless they moved into that position while the ability was already going off. The Gunslinger mechanic is more forgiving - i can switch targets and abilities directly behind me and the GS toon just twist around unnaturally.

 

to my knowledge, no one can attack directly behind the target by just pressing an attack.

 

what attacks are able to do this?

[klham]

to my knowledge, no one can attack directly behind the target by just pressing an attack.

 

what attacks are able to do this?

I've seen it with Charged Burst and Speed Shot. She turns around and fires roughly 180-degrees from the direction that her cover screen is facing. Haven't taken her out in a while, so I'm not sure if anything's changed recently. But I rarely had to exit & re-enter cover just to resolve directional issues, and not with the frequency my Commando has to stop casting and turn around then recast (since manual keyboard rotation isn't quick enough).

[Llama-Eight]

the frequency my Commando has to stop casting and turn around then recast (since manual keyboard rotation isn't quick enough).

 

As long as you started casting while the target was "in front" of you, you won't need to turn around (possibly unless they're still behind you when you actually fire, I tend to turn with my mouse while casting anyway so I'm usually pointing in the right direction anyway).

[klham]

As long as you started casting while the target was "in front" of you, you won't need to turn around (possibly unless they're still behind you when you actually fire, I tend to turn with my mouse while casting anyway so I'm usually pointing in the right direction anyway).

 

Correct, that's what I said above re direction & casting. But you can't mouse-turn and cast, since that doesn't keep you rooted.

[oaceen]

Correct, that's what I said above re direction & casting. But you can't mouse-turn and cast, since that doesn't keep you rooted.

 

i'm confused what you mean by this exactly then.

 

 

i can hold down my left mouse button and pan my camera, or my right mouse button and pan my character along with my camera, but still stay rooted in place.

 

do you consider rotating your character in place not being still rooted?

[klham]

do you consider rotating your character in place not being still rooted?

It keeps you rooted, so you can continue casting. But I never found it quick enough to track good melee effectively. My point is that directionality requires more management by the Commando player when being kited by melee, obliging the commando to stop casting and move, whereas if you play Gunslinger you'll notice the animations take care of a lot of that for you and the target stays 'acquired' across casted abilities even when they're behind you. A Gunslinger in cover never freezes with weapons pointed sideways while trying to fire in the 5-7 o'clock zone the way a rooted commando will do (or at least it was rare enough that I don't recall it being a big issue with Gunslinger). That's a major advantage when melee get in your face and are running through your 'toon back and forth etc (to say nothing of the defensive aspects of remaining rooted in cover).