Revan should be in jail.

[OldVengeance]

It's been a while since I played kotor 2 as well but I was almost sure one of the Jedi Masters explicitly says to the PC that they were only one to return to face the Council.

 

One of the loading screens also mentions that Revan ensured the Jedi and republic troops that were not still totally loyal to him died at Malachor V. So I imagine any other Jedi who would have gone back had been killed by the Mass Shadow Generator.

[Aurbere]

It's been a while since I played kotor 2 as well but I was almost sure one of the Jedi Masters explicitly says to the PC that they were only one to return to face the Council.

 

One of the loading screens also mentions that Revan ensured the Jedi and republic troops that were not still totally loyal to him died at Malachor V. So I imagine any other Jedi who would have gone back had been killed by the Mass Shadow Generator.

 

I'm actually going to buy KOTOR II off Steam, so when I play through it, I'll be able to make a more accurate assessment.

[Rayla_Felana]

The Exile was the only Jedi to return AFTER the war had ended at Malachor V, Jedi Master Kavar returned early on in the war when he realised what was really going on in Revan's midst, I don't think it's too wild of an assumption to suggest others did, before Revan started his shady back door tactics with his forces, we know from Atton that the Jedi in Revan's ranks were starting to suss out what was going on, considering he himself was one of the Assassins that worked for Revan, I imagine he's a reliable source.

[BradTheImpaler]

Okay, there's a lot of hype over Revan. Allow me to offer common sense where it seems to be sorely lacking:

 

I hope that you're trolling or something.

 

Revan was a Jedi who thought with his lightsaber first, and brain second. He circumvented the Jedi High Council and caused a rift in the Order to oppose the Mandalorians infringing on Republic space (making him an unauthorized vigilante). He persuaded a large group of young, impressionable Jedi to follow him into war (making him a disturber of the peace).

 

As someone else said, you don't gain a reputation as a masterful tactician and win even Jedi Masters over who are sympathetic to your cause by being dumb or just "persuading a large group of young, impressionable Jedi". As for a "disturber of the peace"---what peace, exactly? Mandalorians were literally leaving worlds in flames and slaughtering millions by the time Revan & co. joined in the war. Yes, the Council did sense something vaguely in the background, and we all know what that was, but if the alternative was to leave millions to burn, then it was the will of the force and the overriding element of the Jedi Code to, as the Exile put it, protect others even when their masters wouldn't. Even if it were a mistake, it would not have been done out of evil or incompetence---but it was necessary.

 

Though victorious, he became bloodlustful, and stumbled into Unknown Space, wherein he met Emperor Vitiate in hiding. Revan, being the weak-willed imbecile that he is, is so seduced by the dark side he becomes Darth Revan and kicks off the Jedi Civil War (Sith having been outlawed under the Convention of Civilized Systems, that made him an enemy of the state). He returned to the Republic with his apprentice, Malak, and they brought horrific onslaught upon the galaxy they'd just saved (mass murder).

 

Weak-willed? That's just wrong. If you woke up tomorrow and realized that up until a few months ago you were a mass-murderer, I'm sure (or I hope) that you'd feel immense guilt. Even Carth, who had tried to blame him for his wife's death, said he wondered how Revan could keep going. Yet he still found the strength to go after the Emperor (hardly part of "the mess he made").

 

He cut off Malak's jaw, and was utterly taken by surprise when an elite Jedi strike team boarded his cruiser. Malak, being slightly more intelligent than Revan (though not much) took this opportunity and blasted his master.

 

As was said by someone else, cutting of an apprentice's jaw hardly seems worth mentioning as a crime in light of everything else. But that doesn't matter to you, of course, you're just blinded by hatred of Revan and will accept any excuse to criticize him for the smallest of things as well as the largest. As for Malak being smarter, that's just nonsense. Revan was Malak's master for his intellect as well as his strength. As a Sith, Malak was a brute and Revan was the tactical one. Generally the tactical one is the more intelligent.

 

Revan (being outwitted. Easily outwitted) was incapacitated and apprehended by Bastila Shan, who took him to the Jedi Council (making her a criminal, considering he should have been placed in a federal prison). They wiped his memory (showing his further lack of willpower) and remade him into a Jedi. He went on to slay Malak. At this point, Revan's crimes- vigilantism, genocide, and acts againt humanity- was hailed as a hero...for cleaning up a mess he made...

 

1. It's called battle meditation.

2. Try fighting a battle of that scale on two fronts.

3. So Revan was bad because he committed 'heresy' against the Jedi Order, but Bastila bringing Revan to the Council, rather than taking him to a Republic prison (Force cages don't seem to have the best track record of holding Force-sensitives anyway) and leaving them without knowledge of the Star Maps that led them to the Star Forge and Revan's redemption, was criminal? Not to mention that if he faced execution by the Republic as you suggest below, handing him over would blatantly violate the Jedi code. That's a blatant double-standard and it just shows, again, that you're just out to attack Revan and not let the facts get in the way.

4. As was said, again, the whole Council coming together to not just "wipe his memory", but reprogram his wounded mind with another identity, while he was unconscious, is no sign of a lack of willpower. In fact, how he handled finding out the truth, not to mention the confrontation on the Rakatan temple, was a sign of his extremely strong will. Yes, he did terrible things, but the Jedi believe in redemption for the repentant, not condemning out of vengeance, and he did many great things and saved many lives as well. Then there was the factor of the Emperor influencing his mind, for which he cannot be faulted (any Jedi, especially one who was witness to the atrocities of the Mandalorian War, would have been susceptible to this---the Emperor is no pushover and his influence still holds over an entire civilization).

 

Then he married Bastila. Heresy against the Jedi Order.

 

Here I admit to being somewhat on your side, but again, heresy against the Order seems to only matter to you when it's something Revan did. In any case, the feelings and Force bond that Revan & Bastila shared were ultimately what allowed Revan's influence to redeem Bastila. Ironically you seem to be falling into the very same trap that Bastila did---she was furious at Malak's crimes, and letting that overcome her made her doubt what the Code warns Jedi about---that those feelings themselves, uncontrolled, will lead you down the path that you angrily condemn.

 

His memories returned, and eventually he went to hunt down Vitiate. He allied himself with a Sith Lord named Scourge, and was totally caught off guard when Scourge betrayed him (one count of stupidity). The Emperor and Scourge incapacitated Revan and held him prisoner for three centuries.

 

As was said before, he had good reason to believe that Scourge would oppose the Emperor, though if you actually read, he did have his doubts, but they needed a way to reach the throne room. Even the Exile, who hardly trusted him at all from the start, was caught off guard. That's more to do with how it was written and the fact that the Emperor had "plot armor" than a failing of either Revan or the Exile.

 

So this is Revan. Failed Jedi, failed Sith. Over, and over, and over. A mindless murderer, to be sure, equating to nothing more than the Maul of his time. Why wasn't he arrested? I'm sorry...but the millions of Republic citizens who'd suffered at his hands would NOT have allowed the Senate NOT to have this monster imprisoned for life, if not executed for crimes against civilization.

 

Anyone care to explain what makes him vaguely cool?

 

See above about the idea of execution. No, he was not mindless. What he was, according to the Council itself, was "willful and headstrong". Oh by the way, emphasis on willful . He has been described time and time again as "saviour, villain, hero, conqueror"---but you have failed to learn the lesson of Revan, that as the Exile put it, "No one is without hope...There is a chance for redemption every day." The whole point of the contrast in that description is that he has seen the galaxy from both sides and is different things to different people, but ultimately was redeemed, and gained wisdom and strengths that would otherwise not have been possible. The good outweighs the bad.

[BradTheImpaler]

I'm actually going to buy KOTOR II off Steam, so when I play through it, I'll be able to make a more accurate assessment.

 

Enjoy!

[Aurbere]

Enjoy!

 

I had the game a few years ago, but I think I lost it. Either that or it got sold.

[Beniboybling]

I had the game a few years ago, but I think I lost it. Either that or it got sold.

Now THAT is heresy

[Tuscad]

I had the game a few years ago, but I think I lost it. Either that or it got sold.

 

Get the restored content patch, I wish I had it for PC so that I could but I only have it for the Xbox.

[BrandonSM]

Get the restored content patch, I wish I had it for PC so that I could but I only have it for the Xbox.

 

You and me both, I played the restored patch on a friend's comp and its beautiful..

 

 

[Invictos]

TBQH all Jedi that fall to the dark side and been "redemed" are guilty of crimes and should be punished as such, this whole "The dark side made me do it but im better now so i cant get in trouble" nonsense has always been absurd.

 

Yep. Anakin's redemption is a main theme of the movies, and therefore people understandably conclude that redemption should be a main theme of the whole Star Wars setting -- but the EU has turned redemption into a farce. Anakin died right after he was redeemed. Full stop. Even Lucas (probably, if perhaps only subconsciously) realized that having Darth Vader show up at the Ewok after-party wouldn't work. Can you imagine?

 

Luke: "Hey guys, we won! Wait, why are you all brandishing weapons? Ohhh ... don't mind dad. He's totally sorry for murdering innocents over the last two decades. Have some punch; we'll all have a good laugh about the bad old days together!"

 

The Dark Side may very well be, canonically, a mind-altering influence, but it shouldn't be a catch-all excuse for any and all bad behavior. If it is a catch-all excuse for Force users to commit bad acts under the law, then the Republic is no republic at all; it's an oligarchy, ruled by a class of supercilious and self-righteous superhumans. Realistically, normal citizens would hate and fear the Jedi, not revere them.

 

All of that rambling out of the way, the redemption theme is fine when used sparingly and handled plausibly. It's not fine when, as in TOR, redemption is handed out willy-nilly (and worse still, when the only option to mete out deserved punishment requires that you turn into a cold-blooded murderer yourself). I'm a big fan of Revan and of KoTOR, but even his storyline stretches credulity; I could see his heroics at the Star Forge earning him a pardon for past crimes -- special circumstances and all that jazz -- but there should be no question but that he earned the pardon, and that his having been mind-wiped makes him a special case, essentially a different person than the Sith Lord who had terrorized millions.

[BrandonSM]

Yep. Anakin's redemption is a main theme of the movies, and therefore people understandably conclude that redemption should be a main theme of the whole Star Wars setting -- but the EU has turned redemption into a farce. Anakin died right after he was redeemed. Full stop. Even Lucas (probably, if perhaps only subconsciously) realized that having Darth Vader show up at the Ewok after-party wouldn't work. Can you imagine?

 

Luke: "Hey guys, we won! Wait, why are you all brandishing weapons? Ohhh ... don't mind dad. He's totally sorry for murdering innocents over the last two decades. Have some punch; we'll all have a good laugh about the bad old days together!"

 

The Dark Side may very well be, canonically, a mind-altering influence, but it shouldn't be a catch-all excuse for any and all bad behavior. If it is a catch-all excuse for Force users to commit bad acts under the law, then the Republic is no republic at all; it's an oligarchy, ruled by a class of supercilious and self-righteous superhumans. Realistically, normal citizens would hate and fear the Jedi, not revere them.

 

All of that rambling out of the way, the redemption theme is fine when used sparingly and handled plausibly. It's not fine when, as in TOR, redemption is handed out willy-nilly (and worse still, when the only option to mete out deserved punishment requires that you turn into a cold-blooded murderer yourself). I'm a big fan of Revan and of KoTOR, but even his storyline stretches credulity; I could see his heroics at the Star Forge earning him a pardon for past crimes -- special circumstances and all that jazz -- but there should be no question but that he earned the pardon, and that his having been mind-wiped makes him a special case, essentially a different person than the Sith Lord who had terrorized millions.

 

 

To become a Force Ghost like Ben and Luke and Yoda, you have to be totally immersed in the Light-Side. Proof of him being redeemed.

[Invictos]

To become a Force Ghost like Ben and Luke and Yoda, you have to be totally immersed in the Light-Side. Proof of him being redeemed.

 

Yes, exactly. In order for his redemption to have the proper emotional weight, Anakin had to die. The Force Ghost thing just expounds on that principle.

 

The point is that realistically, there would have to be legal implications for Jedi who fall to the dark side and then commit terrible crimes -- legal implications apart from whatever internal treatments (what I like to call mystical rehab) the Jedi Order dreams up. Otherwise, the Republic is a farce; the viewer/reader/player is forced to think about what it would be like to live in a society policed by a small band of superhumans who are above the law, and that's not a good thing, from an author's perspective. What's more, Jedi fall so freaking often in certain stories that you have to wonder why the Senate continues to rely on them. Imagine being a trooper sent on a mission led by a jedi; she trips and breaks her ankle and the pain causes her to lash out -- "Argh!! It hurts; I hate you all!"

 

<lightning, telekinesis, lightsaber flashes punctuate a fade to black>

 

A day later? Half your unit is dead, but she's back to her cheery self -- and hey, no one but other Jedi, who obviously have a self-serving interest in minimizing dark-side-related crimes, can judge her -- so uh, whatevs. That's a silly example, but after playing through some of the Jedi storylines in TOR, it's really not that far-fetched to speculate that the average citizen might believe Jedi to be so volatile.

 

And that's a shame. IMO, Bioware really screwed up by shoe-horning either-or alignment choices into their story (forcing you to choose between cold-blooded murder and no-strings-attached redemption at every turn) -- but on a larger scale, perhaps Vitiate is the big mistake. Making him an all-powerful mind controller/corrupter really diminishes Star Wars' already over-simple morality axis.

[Aurbere]

Now THAT is heresy

 

Hey now. I had it on XBOX and sold it along with my exbawcks.

[Aurbere]

Get the restored content patch, I wish I had it for PC so that I could but I only have it for the Xbox.

 

I'm hoping Steam will have the full game up. If not then I'll have to download it off the interwebs.

[Rikalonius]

And that's a shame. IMO, Bioware really screwed up by shoe-horning either-or alignment choices into their story (forcing you to choose between cold-blooded murder and no-strings-attached redemption at every turn) -- but on a larger scale, perhaps Vitiate is the big mistake. Making him an all-powerful mind controller/corrupter really diminishes Star Wars' already over-simple morality axis.

 

I agree with this completely. They did the same thing with Mass Effect. The Reapers were a right good cosmic horror antagonist. They couldn't just leave it at that, they had to throw in a space god, disguised as a translucent ghost child of your memory, to tell you that he/it controls the reapers and created them to cull organic beings like so many weeds. Now, with their new DLC, you'll go in search of another awesome-super-bad ex-Reaper who holds that McGuffin to stop the Reapers.