Revan should be in jail.

[caesaraugust]

Okay, there's a lot of hype over Revan. Allow me to offer common sense where it seems to be sorely lacking:

 

Revan was a Jedi who thought with his lightsaber first, and brain second. He circumvented the Jedi High Council and caused a rift in the Order to oppose the Mandalorians infringing on Republic space (making him an unauthorized vigilante). He persuaded a large group of young, impressionable Jedi to follow him into war (making him a disturber of the peace). Though victorious, he became bloodlustful, and stumbled into Unknown Space, wherein he met Emperor Vitiate in hiding. Revan, being the weak-willed imbecile that he is, is so seduced by the dark side he becomes Darth Revan and kicks off the Jedi Civil War (Sith having been outlawed under the Convention of Civilized Systems, that made him an enemy of the state). He returned to the Republic with his apprentice, Malak, and they brought horrific onslaught upon the galaxy they'd just saved (mass murder). He cut off Malak's jaw, and was utterly taken by surprise when an elite Jedi strike team boarded his cruiser. Malak, being slightly more intelligent than Revan (though not much) took this opportunity and blasted his master.

 

Revan (being outwitted. Easily outwitted) was incapacitated and apprehended by Bastila Shan, who took him to the Jedi Council (making her a criminal, considering he should have been placed in a federal prison). They wiped his memory (showing his further lack of willpower) and remade him into a Jedi. He went on to slay Malak. At this point, Revan's crimes- vigilantism, genocide, and acts againt humanity- was hailed as a hero...for cleaning up a mess he made...

 

Then he married Bastila. Heresy against the Jedi Order. His memories returned, and eventually he went to hunt down Vitiate. He allied himself with a Sith Lord named Scourge, and was totally caught off guard when Scourge betrayed him (one count of stupidity). The Emperor and Scourge incapacitated Revan and held him prisoner for three centuries.

 

So this is Revan. Failed Jedi, failed Sith. Over, and over, and over. A mindless murderer, to be sure, equating to nothing more than the Maul of his time. Why wasn't he arrested? I'm sorry...but the millions of Republic citizens who'd suffered at his hands would NOT have allowed the Senate NOT to have this monster imprisoned for life, if not executed for crimes against civilization.

 

Anyone care to explain what makes him vaguely cool?

[Aurbere]

I'm sure his destroying the Star Forge bit made up for his atrocious acts during the past two wars. Revan should have been executed or his tie to the Force cut by Meetra Surik. He may have destrpyed the Star Forge, but that does not make up for costing countless lives.

 

As to what makes him cool.

Apparently, he mastered every lightsaber form, mastered both sides of the Force, single handedly destroyed his Sith "Empire", and survived a fight with the Emperor. All lies except for that last bit, but his survival did nothing to help the Republic. The Emperor fed off of his energy and slowly made him insane. All of Revan's heroic actions were done to fix his mistakes. Not cool imo.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Aurbere

[caesaraugust]

I'm sure his destroying the Star Forge bit made up for his atrocious acts during the past two wars. Revan should have been executed or his tie to the Force cut by Meetra Surik. He may have destrpyed the Star Forge, but that does not make up for costing countless lives.

 

Millions upon millions of lives, as history tells us. Sure, he cleaned up his own mess- he found the Star Forge, which had been lost for millennia, and he killed Malak...who he trained. He should have been publicly executed...he's not a hero.

[Aurbere]

Millions upon millions of lives, as history tells us. Sure, he cleaned up his own mess- he found the Star Forge, which had been lost for millennia, and he killed Malak...who he trained. He should have been publicly executed...he's not a hero.

 

He isn't a hero. Maybe for leading the Republic against the Mandalorians, but he should have been executed for attacking the Republic only a few years later.

[caesaraugust]

He isn't a hero. Maybe for leading the Republic against the Mandalorians, but he should have been executed for attacking the Republic only a few years later.

 

Even that was a crime. He violated the Jedi Order's stance on the matter. No one at all knows what Mand'alor the Ultimate would have done had he even got close to Coruscant. Revan, again, is just a mindless Maul, running into combat without any thought. Completely anti-Jedi, and too irrational to be true Sith.

[BrandonSM]

The Jedi of his time had the same views as you. But the Republic(Senate and Citizens) made them accept him on the council.

[Aximand]

The Jedi of his time had the same views as you. But the Republic(Senate and Citizens) made them accept him on the council.

 

I.E. Drew didn't want his baby to die.

[Newyankalt]

I read the revan book a couple times and I don't see how it was revans fault that meetra lost her connection to the force. It was her choice to do so she was part of a war same as revan and wasn't she the one that activated the prototype weapon leading up to her own loss of the force.

[Newyankalt]

Also revan had no choice but to attack the republic. Vitiate was messing with revan and malaks minds making them do as he wished. At the time there was no way to overcome it.

[Tuscad]

Riddle me this: What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?

[BrandonSM]

Riddle me this: What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?

 

From what perspective?

 

To be born good means to never have the issue of having an evil nature or another side of darkness.

 

But to overcome your evil nature through great efforce enhances your Will and makes you stronger.

[Tuscad]

From what perspective?

 

To be born good means to never have the issue of having an evil nature or another side of darkness.

 

But to overcome your evil nature through great efforce enhances your Will and makes you stronger.

 

I mean which is more of a feat, which should be lauded more?

[caesaraugust]

Also revan had no choice but to attack the republic. Vitiate was messing with revan and malaks minds making them do as he wished. At the time there was no way to overcome it.

 

I don't think any court of law would buy that. His weak willpower is his own fault, so his actions belong to him.

[caesaraugust]

Riddle me this: What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?

 

Philosophy is out the window here. We're talking concrete law. Revan violated it over and over, leading to the subsequent deaths of millions of innocent beings the galaxy over. His small amount of redemption (if there is even any) is immaterial.

[Airmo]

Guess I'ma just ignore the unhidden bashing (we get it you don't like Revan). As said before I think the destroying of the Star Forge made up for the Mando Wars, and the attack on the Republic when he came back? He fell to the dark side, how many other Jedi have done the same and been off the hook? Years of war were changing him already and The Emperor forced his fall to be complete, it was basically brainwashing, he did the same with most of the Jedi Council years later in the failed attack against him, or his voice as it were, on that cloaked space station (guess they were all weak willed).

 

What does cutting Malak's jaw off have to do with anything? Sure it wasn't very nice but it's not like it happened to a good person. Sound's like a pretty awesome thing to do to me.

 

Bastila didn't really incapacitate Revan, the shot fired from Malak's ship did that. Bastila brought the already knocked out (and suffering from what I can guess is massive brain damage) Revan back to the council to heal and rewrite him.

 

By the time Revan was facing down Malak it was more of the Emperor's mess, since he turned both of them and showed them how to find the Star Forge. The Jedi wanted to kick Revan out for being with Bastila too but since he was a hero they kept him around to save face, I thought jedi were above such things? Scourge I guess wasn't that surprising but at the time he was completely against the guy trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy, which inludes himself, guess Revan thought Sith valued survival and self preservation.. which they do.

 

Again, I get it you don't like Revan.. what's your beef stranger? /empatheticface

Edited August 25, 2012 by Airmo
wording

[MyDarkSunshine]

Revan was a Jedi who thought with his lightsaber first, and brain second.

 

Nice phrasing, but one doesn't get hailed as a master tactician for collecting bottle-caps. He didn't always participate on the field in battle, much of his time was spent coordinating the war effort (using his brain first, and lightsaber when necessary).

 

He circumvented the Jedi High Council and caused a rift in the Order to oppose the Mandalorians infringing on Republic space (making him an unauthorized vigilante).

 

An unauthorized vigilante that halted the Mandalorian advance after assuming command of the Republic fleet, and then beat them back and all-but wiped them out; saving the Republic in the process.

 

He persuaded a large group of young, impressionable Jedi to follow him into war (making him a disturber of the peace).

 

If I'm not mistaken a few Jedi Masters also joined him. He wasn't just charismatic enough to persuade the impressionable; many believed he was right, and that action had to be taken. In my opinion, it was a failing of the Council not to act then and join the war effort, so it could assume control and direct its own away from the darkside.

 

Though victorious, he became bloodlustful, and stumbled into Unknown Space, wherein he met Emperor Vitiate in hiding. Revan, being the weak-willed imbecile that he is, is so seduced by the dark side he becomes Darth Revan and kicks off the Jedi Civil War (Sith having been outlawed under the Convention of Civilized Systems, that made him an enemy of the state).

 

Weak-willed? Debatable. For one (Jedi Knight storyline spoilers):

 

 

Both the Jedi Knight, and most of the Jedi Council, are forced to the darkside by Vitiate. Are they all weak-willed too?

 

Yes, it is true he was falling to the darkside before he entered Unknown Space. Not entirely surprising given the circumstances; Jedi have fallen for lesser reasons.

 

He returned to the Republic with his apprentice, Malak, and they brought horrific onslaught upon the galaxy they'd just saved (mass murder).

 

True. Except Revan left many core worlds untouched and sought to keep the Republic functioning as a whole, and it's infrastructure intact. It is highly likely that Kreia was lying when she suggested Revan sacrificed himself to the darkside, given what is now known about Revan's fall at the hands of the Emperor; but G0-t0's analyse of Revan's tactics match the theory that he never intended to hand the Republic over to Vitiate, but instead sought to temper it (through complete conquest, if necessary) into something that could oppose him.

 

The 'lesser evil'. Still a flawed philosophy, but it perhaps shows he wasn't as blood-crazed as you make out.

 

He cut off Malak's jaw, and was utterly taken by surprise when an elite Jedi strike team boarded his cruiser. Malak, being slightly more intelligent than Revan (though not much) took this opportunity and blasted his master.

 

Yeah, he should've seen that coming. But it is probable that like Malak, he expected the Apprentice's challenge to come in the form of single combat. Malak however saw an opportunity to rid himself of two dangerous enemies, and took it.

 

Revan (being outwitted. Easily outwitted) was incapacitated and apprehended by Bastila Shan, who took him to the Jedi Council (making her a criminal, considering he should have been placed in a federal prison). They wiped his memory (showing his further lack of willpower) and remade him into a Jedi. He went on to slay Malak. At this point, Revan's crimes- vigilantism, genocide, and acts againt humanity- was hailed as a hero...for cleaning up a mess he made...

 

Yes; the inability to prevent one's memory being wiped by The Jedi Council, whilst being unconscious, shows a clear lack of willpower... [/sarcasm] Also, despite their best efforts, his personality started coming to the forefront again during his time hunting Malak. If I am not mistaken, Malak says something to that effect.

 

As for why he was made into a hero. Good question. He brought an end to Malak, who was far more damaging to the Republic, if less of an overall threat, and had previously saved it from the Mandalorians; both heroic acts. However yes, he had caused a lot of suffering during the Civil War which would leave the Republic with scars for a long, long time. The impression I got from the games was that the darkside itself was blamed for Revan's actions, and not the person himself; which does, in a way, fit in with the Jedi's theories in regards to redemption.

 

Then he married Bastila. Heresy against the Jedi Order.

 

The Jedi Order is not infallible, as their mistakes show. Indeed, Jolee offers some wise words in regards to love and marriage. If I'm not mistaken, later era's (post RotJ for example) learnt from these mistakes.

 

Revan and Bastila would have married with or without their permission anyway. The Council probably thought it was best to sanction their actions this time in an attempt to have more control; they also got an agreement from the two that they would not spread their beliefs to other Jedi. Compromise.

 

His memories returned, and eventually he went to hunt down Vitiate. He allied himself with a Sith Lord named Scourge, and was totally caught off guard when Scourge betrayed him (one count of stupidity). The Emperor and Scourge incapacitated Revan and held him prisoner for three centuries.

 

Well, to be fair, Revan had no reason to suspect Scourge's betrayal. Scourge was fully committed to defeating the Emperor, it just so happened that the Emperor's Wrath realised something Revan didn't; Revan wouldn't be the one to defeat Vitiate. After the Exile's (yes, the writer's fault, not the character's) mistake in saving Revan instead of striking down the Emperor, Scourge made entirely the right choice in waiting for a guaranteed victory as opposed to a risking everything on a long shot chance.

 

& Yes. During those three centuries Revan managed to delay the war and hide the location of the foundry from Vitiate's probing, all thanks to the help of Meetra Surik - whom later instigated his rescue. Although ironically, Revan's plan could have doomed the entire Republic (Jedi Knight storyline spoilers):

 

 

Mass genocide is exactly what Vitiate wants, as it would allow him to transcend into a God-like state.

 

Not to mention, he definitely deserved to be locked up for that kind of plan; except oddly enough, the Jedi Council sanction it...

 

So this is Revan. Failed Jedi, failed Sith. Over, and over, and over. A mindless murderer, to be sure, equating to nothing more than the Maul of his time. Why wasn't he arrested? I'm sorry...but the millions of Republic citizens who'd suffered at his hands would NOT have allowed the Senate NOT to have this monster imprisoned for life, if not executed for crimes against civilization.

 

Certainly a failed Jedi, although according to Bane he was an awesome Sith (he just didn't stay one for long). He however wasn't a 'mindless murderer'; he was cold, calculating and open to allowing/causing death when necessary to fulfil his plans.

 

Again, I can't answer why he wasn't arrested. Perhaps because at most points in time, the Republic felt they needed Revan.

1. They needed him to fight the Mandalorians.

2. They needed him to defeat Malak.

3. Revan wasn't interested in staying in Republic space, but instead intended to go on a solo-crusade against some dark force within Unknown Space. Why waste tax payers money imprisoning a Force-user (that cannot be easy) when they intend to go into a self-inflicted exile of sorts.

4. After his rescue, the Republic needs all the help it can get against the now-returned Empire.

 

Anyone care to explain what makes him vaguely cool?

 

His outfit, for one. I mean seriously, did anyone play KotOR I for the first time and not think that it was awesome? I'm also sure much of his 'charm' originates in the fact that his actions are the players actions within the game; unless you're intentionally role-playing someone you dislike, Revan's pretty much going to handle situations in the same way you would.

 

Revan has an 'ends justify any means' type approach. Whilst in reality this isn't really a philosophy many agree with entirely (even consequentialists are unlikely to sanction genocide), it makes for a more interesting character than the conventional morally upright hero. Someone also described his story on the forums as 'tragic', which fits. He seems to never achieve his goals and always falls at the last hurdle, right when victory seems in his grasp. Tragedies make for good stories.

 

He was powerful without being ridiculously so. He wasn't 'special', 'the Chosen One' or 'destined to greatness' like other examples of Star Wars heroes; yet he manages to both save and doom the galaxy in equal measure. He is willing to risk and give everything to protect that which he loves.

 

Revan became a symbol. He might have been a mediocre Jedi, but he became more than that; he was an ideal. As in my signature, who he was became unimportant, it was his message that mattered.

 

He's just... different, when compared against other major Star Wars protagonists; especially for those that haven't read much of the expanded universe.

Edited August 25, 2012 by MyDarkSunshine

[Newyankalt]

I don't think any court of law would buy that. His weak willpower is his own fault, so his actions belong to him.

 

I don't think any Jedi would be able to overcome the emperors mind control. Who would put there hero revan in jail everyone loves him except the Jedi high council many padawans love him. Revan is there god ( probably is doubt any other jedi could beat him in a fight).

Edited August 25, 2012 by Newyankalt

[Aurbere]

Yeah, yeah Revan destroyed the Star Forge. So? Destroying the Star Forge hurt the Republic more than saving it did. 300 years later, the Sith Empire arrives with incredibly powerful Sith Lords at its head. Sith like Darth Jadus, Marr, Malgus, Baras and many other Sith Lords. Not to mention the Emperor, who's power grew considerably whilst building his armada.

 

In my opinion, the Star Forge could have been useful to the Republic. They could have used it to rebuild the Republic fleet, making it stronger than ever. But we do have to worry about the Forge's Dark Side energies. Of course someone strong in the Force could at least counter the energies, allowing Republic personnel to operate on it.

 

Destroying the Star Forge did more harm than good, imo. In the end, the second Chosen One failed to help the Republic at all.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Yeah, yeah Revan destroyed the Star Forge. So? Destroying the Star Forge hurt the Republic more than saving it did. 300 years later, the Sith Empire arrives with incredibly powerful Sith Lords at its head. Sith like Darth Jadus, Marr, Malgus, Baras and many other Sith Lords. Not to mention the Emperor, who's power grew considerably whilst building his armada.

 

The Star Forge was an instrument of the darkside, as you've mentioned. Not only did it corrupt those that used it, the Star Forge is believed to have contributed to the collapse of the Rakatan Infinite Empire, as its influence instigated their civil war. The Republic would have been misguided to utilise it, to say the least. Sure, it might have been their saving grace- but more likely their undoing.

 

& yes, delaying the war had unfortunate side-effects. But the future is hardly certain. It gave the Republic time to rebuild after the Civil War (admittedly that was somewhat interrupted by near-destruction of the Jedi Order pre-KotOR II), and prominent Jedi came to power during this time as well as Sith; including the Hero of Tython, the Jedi Knight that Scourge foresaw defeating the Emperor.

[Aurbere]

The Star Forge was an instrument of the darkside, as you've mentioned. Not only did it corrupt those that used it, the Star Forge is believed to have contributed to the collapse of the Rakatan Infinite Empire, as its influence instigated their civil war. The Republic would have been misguided to utilise it, to say the least. Sure, it might have been their saving grace- but more likely their undoing.

 

& yes, delaying the war had unfortunate side-effects. But the future is hardly certain. It gave the Republic time to rebuild after the Civil War (admittedly that was somewhat interrupted by near-destruction of the Jedi Order pre-KotOR II), and prominent Jedi came to power during this time as well as Sith; including the Hero of Tython, the Jedi Knight that Scourge foresaw defeating the Emperor.

 

Then maybe it was a good idea to destroy the Star Forge, but destroying the Forge did not delay the war. The Emperor saw the Forge as a means to speed up his invasion. Destroying it only put him back on schedule.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Then maybe it was a good idea to destroy the Star Forge, but destroying the Forge did not delay the war. The Emperor saw the Forge as a means to speed up his invasion. Destroying it only put him back on schedule.

 

Entirely correct. You're going to love the reason the war was delayed, I can just tell. During the Emperor's mental assault on Revan, the latter was able to plant seeds of doubt within his attackers mind; doubt that caused the Emperor to delay his war. If I remember correctly, he did this so his son could grow up in a time of peace and "never face the fear of total annihilation" (which failed miserably, based on the events of KotOR II). Oh, and apparently Revan caused the Emperor to seek peace via the Treaty of Coruscant, which is why he is angry at being awoken in Maelstrom Prison; although, the treaty never really helped the Republic much.

[Aurbere]

Entirely correct. You're going to love the reason the war was delayed, I can just tell. During the Emperor's mental assault on Revan, the latter was able to plant seeds of doubt within his attackers mind; doubt that caused the Emperor to delay his war. If I remember correctly, he did this so his son could grow up in a time of peace and "never face the fear of total annihilation" (which failed miserably, based on the events of KotOR II). Oh, and apparently Revan caused the Emperor to seek peace via the Treaty of Coruscant, which is why he is angry at being awoken in Maelstrom Prison; although, the treaty never really helped the Republic much.

 

Well Revan was only able to withstand the Emperor's mental assault because Meetra Surik was giving him the strength to resist. Even then, Revan was still driven insane. I doubt Revan could hold the Emperor back alone. Even TOR's greatest masters wouldn't be able to.

 

Looking back on the treaty. It actually helped the Republic and the Empire. More so the Empire, though The treaty allowed for the oppurtunity to train the four force classes and allowed the non-force using classes to gain prominence. It helped the Empire more because the Wrath and Nox would have been trained anyway. The Jedi would never have the chance to train the JK and JC if the treaty had not been signed.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Aurbere

[Tuscad]

Philosophy is out the window here. We're talking concrete law. Revan violated it over and over, leading to the subsequent deaths of millions of innocent beings the galaxy over. His small amount of redemption (if there is even any) is immaterial.

 

I disagree the whole theme of Star Wars is redemption. On a side note I think him going to war against the Mandalorians was the right thing to do, Millions (Billions maybe) were dying and had they spread to Coruscant the death toll would have easily surpassed the Trillions. I think where Revan went wrong was following the Mandalorians into deep space (he sought revenge and that was not the Jedi way), however had he not he would never have found the Star Forge and while he Ignited another war it ended up saving the galaxy. Had Revan not found out about the Star Forge, been redeemed and destroyed it then the Sith Empire would have arrived 300 years sooner and the Republic would have crumbled because of their massive losses to the Mandalorians. Right or Wrong, Revan saved the Republic from complete annihilation.

 

You can argue that what happened at Malachor V was wrong, I don't know, in some aspects I view it as the right thing to do because it brought a swift end to the war and stopped all the death then and there. If a Jedi's life is sacrifice then it would be hypocritical of them to be against sacrificing themselves to end a war, it is likewise for the Republic Troops as they were fighting to preserve their government no matter the cost, they performed splendidly, their deaths insured that the Mandalorians would be crushed.

[Tuscad]

Well Revan was only able to withstand the Emperor's mental assault because Meetra Surik was giving him the strength to resist. Even then, Revan was still driven insane. I doubt Revan could hold the Emperor back alone. Even TOR's greatest masters wouldn't be able to.

 

Looking back on the treaty. It actually helped the Republic and the Empire. More so the Empire, though The treaty allowed for the oppurtunity to train the four force classes and allowed the non-force using classes to gain prominence. It helped the Empire more because the Wrath and Nox would have been trained anyway. The Jedi would never have the chance to train the JK and JC if the treaty had not been signed.

 

I don't think he was driven insane, if you look back at Malachor V you will see that what he had planned on the Foundry is a more extreme example of that. Targeting and killing just Imperials would bring a swift end to the war and while it is not Jedi like it would provide the Republic with a clear cut win when now its future is uncertain. Revan on the Foundry is as Revan as Revan gets. If we were attacked by aliens and our future was uncertain and you were able to come across a device that would wipe them all out and save us, would you use it or hold out and hope that our own force would win or that peace would be attained? I would use the device and save Humanity, this is equal to what Revan was trying to do.

[Russkiier]

I don't think he was driven insane, if you look back at Malachor V you will see that what he had planned on the Foundry is a more extreme example of that. Targeting and killing just Imperials would bring a swift end to the war and while it is not Jedi like it would provide the Republic with a clear cut win when now its future is uncertain. Revan on the Foundry is as Revan as Revan gets. If we were attacked by aliens and our future was uncertain and you were able to come across a device that would wipe them all out and save us, would you use it or hold out and hope that our own force would win or that peace would be attained? I would use the device and save Humanity, this is equal to what Revan was trying to do.

 

I don't think your last couple of sentences ring true. Its not like the Empire is a group of scary aliens, many of them are human or near human. Revan in the foundry is perpetuating mass genocide, which is not the Jedi way. In fact you can see Revan fall to the darkside throughout the foundry fight.

 

I think Revan is an interesting character, not an uberl33t god. He chose action instead of inaction during the Mandalorian War. In KOTOR2 you learn that the republic wasn't putting up much of a fight and that the mandalorians wanted to test themselves against the jedi, so mandalorians dropped asteroids on planets and such. The inaction of the jedi council was foolish.