Why P2W will ruin the game.

[DarthTHC]

They've stated clear enough that play to win will not occur. It is clearly evident that a P2W model will be counter productive to their desired outcome, so the chances of them changing their mind on this seems very unlikely not based on their "honor", but the business model they are seeking to achieve with this particular game.

 

Everything else is merely the mind projection fallacy of posters on the board.

 

The intriguing thing is they've said that they don't want pay-to-win, yes. They've also said we'll get content on a 4 week cadence. Then on a 6 week cadence.

 

A whole crapton of stuff they say that is just absolute, complete, fabrication.

 

And let's remember that even as they said they're against pay-to-win, they went on to say in the very next breath that "boosts" will be in the cash shop. Without specific detail it's impossible to know if we, the community, would consider those "boosts" pay-to-win, but the word sure is ominous, isn't it?

Edited August 22, 2012 by DarthTHC

[HarleysRule]

They (Bioware Devs and EA execs) are talking about it directly.

 

And they've already done it in games like Warhammer Online (and it sold very, very well).

 

I don't think "Warhammer Online" and "sold very, very well" should ever go in the same sentence. Warhammer Online is *primarily* a PvP game, and this isn't. I dispute your assertion that the devs/EA are directly talking about P2W, when everything I seen from them they insist TOR *won't* be P2W. If they end up selling WH gear in the cash shop, then yeah this game is toast for a lot of people. If it ends up being that way, I'll just uninstall and never look back, and I'm primarily a PvEer nowadays.

[Goretzu]

I don't think "Warhammer Online" and "sold very, very well" should ever go in the same sentence. Warhammer Online is *primarily* a PvP game, and this isn't. I dispute your assertion that the devs/EA are directly talking about P2W, when everything I seen from them they insist TOR *won't* be P2W. If they end up selling WH gear in the cash shop, then yeah this game is toast for a lot of people. If it ends up being that way, I'll just uninstall and never look back, and I'm primarily a PvEer nowadays.

 

Well WAR sold a pretty decent amount (it just didn't retain them), but that's not what I mean.

 

I mean the P2W pet they put in WAR had nearly a 100% buy rate within 2 month of it becoming availible (and that won't have escaped EA accountants notice).

 

 

They are currently talking about adding cashshop stat gear to SWTOR, and EA exec have said they see nothing wrong with selling ammo reloads for RL dollars in Battlefield.

 

Personally I'd rather I did my best to make sure it didn't happen, rather than just passively let it happen, and then uninstall......... I'd rather be able to keep playing SWTOR frankly.

[kevlarto]

tin foil hat for the op..LOL

 

Yes p2w will ruin this game for someone I am sure since no one in this game has the same opnion on what makes an item p2w... I think p2w is more a perception than something that is real in game.. I am going to hold out on my opinion, until I see the store and what they offer, going to save my knees from all the silly knee jerk reactions..LOL

[Goretzu]

tin foil hat for the op..LOL

 

Yes p2w will ruin this game for someone I am sure since no one in this game has the same opnion on what makes an item p2w... I think p2w is more a perception than something that is real in game.. I am going to hold out on my opinion, until I see the store and what they offer, going to save my knees from all the silly knee jerk reactions..LOL

 

 

P2W is basically anything that allows you to circumvent the in-game path, via paying RL cash.

[RenegadeCarlyle]

P2W would not ruin the game because I'm willing to pay over $1000 a month if possible for it. I P2W in real life and would love to do so in my video games as well.

[Apollodorus]

EA has said there will be blue level items available to buy for sub 50 classes. It's only going to be a matter of time until they do it for level 50s

 

Ah the time-tested "Slippery Slope" fallacy.

 

The sky is not falling folks.

[Goretzu]

P2W would not ruin the game because I'm willing to pay over $1000 a month if possible for it. I P2W in real life and would love to do so in my video games as well.

 

That's what ruins it though, someone IS.......... and then they end up playing by themselves.

[DarthTHC]

Ah the time-tested "Slippery Slope" fallacy.

 

The sky is not falling folks.

 

At the time it was first started, the US Federal Income Tax was "slippery slope". Now look where we are...

 

Slippery slope is real. In the case of P2W, it is driven by the combination of the publisher's greed (EA has this in spades) and inability to generate revenue any other way (as they've proved with this game).

 

The P2W slope here in SWTOR has been transformed into an air hockey table, coated with Teflon and thoroughly greased.

[Digimanbyte_ID]

The intriguing thing is they've said that they don't want pay-to-win, yes. They've also said we'll get content on a 4 week cadence. Then on a 6 week cadence.

 

Yes because timescale for content scheduling in a game is serious business that should be taken at it word. There is a difference between that and down right pay 2 win.

 

Pay 2 win they lose the customer faith and their business is finished. Lack of content for a few weeks means it needs more tweaking.

 

Congratulations at learning tradesmen skill level criticizing on the internet. Oversimplifying speculation and theory-crafting and making it sound like fact.

[utio]

What's stopping the people who aren't paying for gear from getting it the old fashioned way? Strikes me that they'd be enjoying the content more as they do it.

There's no such thing as pay to win if the same gear is avaliable as loot, as anything bought would have no advantage.

[DarthTHC]

Yes because timescale for content scheduling in a game is serious business that should be taken at it word. There is a difference between that and down right pay 2 win.

 

Pay 2 win they lose the customer faith and their business is finished. Lack of content for a few weeks means it needs more tweaking.

 

Congratulations at learning tradesmen skill level criticizing on the internet. Oversimplifying speculation and theory-crafting and making it sound like fact.

 

Lies are lies regardless the context in which they're told.

 

Or if you prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, failing to deliver on promises and/or blaming changing environments is also the same regardless the context in which it happens.

 

Once you establish that pattern, you are likely to continue it.

 

So, yes, they've established the pattern of either lying or failing to live up to promises, then they promised something else. Only a fool would put 100% faith in anything EA says at this point, regardless how much said fool WANTS to believe it.

[Nelnueve]

just because someone thinks they can P2W doesn't mean they KNOW HOW TO PLAY.

Bravo

[HarleysRule]

Some people have ridiculous defintion of P2W, like speeders or XP boosts. How is a speeder P2W? It doesn't improve your combat performance at all. Maybe if the speeder makes you immune to getting knocked off in OWPvP...yeah OK. XP boosts are no different than rest XP. Stims and medpacks are a grey area, because they improve your combat ability, but are easily obtainable in game, and would generally just be a Stupid Tax if you spent real money on them instead.

 

IMO it's only P2W if the stuff in the cash shop is BETTER than the stuff you can get through normal play, or if the amount of normal play is such as painful time sink you'd have to be a masochist to NOT buy it instead.

Edited August 23, 2012 by HarleysRule

[DarthTHC]

IMO it's only P2W if the stuff in the cash shop is BETTER than the stuff you can get through normal play, or if the amount of normal play is such as painful time sink you'd have to be a masochist to NOT buy it instead.

 

Mmm hmm. A stim that gives a 5% better buff than what can be made. A health kit that heals just like what can be made but puts a 2-tick HoT on you... or increases your armor by 5% for 10 seconds. An adrenal that lasts an extra 5 seconds. They're "boosts" and now we have 2 EA employees saying "boosts" will be in the shop. They're much lower on the P2W chart than, say, a +51 crystal, right? Maybe they'll try something like that. Maybe the uproar will be loud but the sales will be compelling. So maybe they'll put more in. See how far they can push it.

 

This is EA, after all, the company that purchases, consumes, and destroys great game-makers for fun and profit.

 

Then there's the ever insidious key that opens up those cool boxes that bad guys have started dropping. Each box has a 0.01% chance to drop top-tier raid gear. Each key costs 25 cents worth of cartel coins. That's not P2W (well, maybe if it really is top-tier raid gear dropping), but it sure is... something... isn't it?

 

Speculation? Absolutely. That's all we have given the lack of clear, specific communication from EA.

 

Is it entirely outside of the realm of possibility? Not even close.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

P2W is a big issue and i wanted to put my 2 cents in. Basically, i think it will ruin the game because then all of the nooby 10 year old with rich parents will be able to pwn even the best players in pvp, be the best dps in ops, and do everything with their +300% damage boost gear that normal players wont be able to do. i do not believe any swtor player would want this, so all of you thinking it might be even a remotely good idea need to think seriously about the impact of p2w on normal skilled non rich players who just want to enjoy the game, including pvp and ops.

 

F2P and P2W are not synonymous. You can have F2P without P2W.

 

BW have stated they don't want the game to become P2W, lets hope this is how it turns out in the long run.

[MadBlue]

EA has said there will be blue level items available to buy for sub 50 classes. It's only going to be a matter of time until they do it for level 50s

 

I like how " We may put a medium level blue piece of armor on the cash shop for example. We might do that. We haven't decided and we're still talking about this" equals "EA has said there will be..." They qualified "maybe" 4 times in that statement.

[Kaisernick]

What's stopping the people who aren't paying for gear from getting it the old fashioned way? Strikes me that they'd be enjoying the content more as they do it.

There's no such thing as pay to win if the same gear is avaliable as loot, as anything bought would have no advantage.

 

ok getting tier1 pve end game gear is a massive grind that takes ages to achive.

 

if bioware put tier 1 pve gear into the cash shop then those who can afford it now no longer have to spend days or even weeks doing mind numbing awful dalies and hmfp for it.

 

thats the pay to win scenario, bioware arnt doing that yet but the simple fact they are thinking about charging subs for makeb and puttind mide level armor in the game means they arnt against the idea as much as we think.

[OnlyNameLeft]

Mmm hmm. A stim that gives a 5% better buff than what can be made. A health kit that heals just like what can be made but puts a 2-tick HoT on you... or increases your armor by 5% for 10 seconds. An adrenal that lasts an extra 5 seconds. They're "boosts" and now we have 2 EA employees saying "boosts" will be in the shop. They're much lower on the P2W chart than, say, a +51 crystal, right? Maybe they'll try something like that. Maybe the uproar will be loud but the sales will be compelling. So maybe they'll put more in. See how far they can push it.

 

This is EA, after all, the company that purchases, consumes, and destroys great game-makers for fun and profit.

 

Then there's the ever insidious key that opens up those cool boxes that bad guys have started dropping. Each box has a 0.01% chance to drop top-tier raid gear. Each key costs 25 cents worth of cartel coins. That's not P2W (well, maybe if it really is top-tier raid gear dropping), but it sure is... something... isn't it?

 

Speculation? Absolutely. That's all we have given the lack of clear, specific communication from EA.

 

Is it entirely outside of the realm of possibility? Not even close.

 

Damn bro, you start off with speculation, take a turn at assumptions, and end up in a back alley full of what-the-hell...

 

You're right though, no clear communication - except for the continued reassurance that F2P will not be P2W. But you can always disregard that communication you ask for since you can't trust them...

 

Fanciful stories, paranoia... Maybe lay off the THC, eh, Darth?

[schmerzbringer]

Lol, I think most people are wrong in my opinion.

 

It always depends on the point of view. And most people are not capable of thinking.

 

Let´s start with pve. Why would p2w ( you can buy better gear and weapons) would harm anyone? If someone really spend tons of bucks to rush through a hard OP, why not? In pve it doesnt really matter. Now, I spend around 150 Dollars a year. So let say, I would spend 100 Dollars a year to get equipment to get through a Operation. It´s ok for me. And if someone are not willing to spend just one dollar, he can still have fun playing a free to play. Ok, he cant play some Operations cos of missing gear.

 

So for me it doesnt matter if I pay a monthly fee or have to pay for gear and weapons!

 

So lets look at pvp.

 

Gear matters. Indeed. What do you think, what happens to me if I join a bg. Especially at the beginning I lost lots of time, cos I had to fight against better equipped guys.

 

Personlly its pretty unfair, that people who have 24 hours to play are better than me, it´s unfair. Why do I have to work hard, to play with my kids, to visit friends, hanging around in pubs. So, I couldnt play all the time. Why do I get bashed all the times form people better geared than me???????? It´s unfair.

 

I spend excatly the same amount of money than someone who plays far, far more than me. It´s unfair, really :) We spend the same money and he is better geared than me. THATS UNFAIR. Equal money = equal gear :D:D

You see its a different theory of what we think its fair.

 

You see, if you have a p2w system, I would be the GOD of the year, cos I am working hard and I could afford to pay much money for my beloved imba lightsword.

 

You see it depends on the point of view. People with lots of time to play would always prefer an abosystem. But there might be people who prefer a different system.

 

By the way, as I am 47 years old. Even if I would buy a 15% more efficient set, I would nonetheless loose in 1v1, cos I am too old to be good. I am decent player, ok.

 

So even if we got an p2w system, against good players I would loose all the time.

 

In the end it is only important how much money we spend thats the bottonline.

 

And in theory p2w is for more democratic than an abo model.

 

Pve-Players would pay for pve content.

Pvp-Players would pay for pvp content.

Crafter would pay for crafting stuff. Go on go on.

 

If you have to spend 150 $ to get all, or you have to spend 150 $ a year for your abo. What is the difference.

 

So, most important thing for me. I would like to be entertained in a good way.

Edited August 24, 2012 by schmerzbringer

[Goretzu]

What's stopping the people who aren't paying for gear from getting it the old fashioned way? Strikes me that they'd be enjoying the content more as they do it.

There's no such thing as pay to win if the same gear is avaliable as loot, as anything bought would have no advantage.

 

Of course there is.

 

It's like saying working 10 years to get a supercar is better than daddy buying "you" one.

 

Better is a subjective term, but getting one 10 years earlier and without effort just because of $$$'s isn't.

[DarthTHC]

Damn bro, you start off with speculation, take a turn at assumptions, and end up in a back alley full of what-the-hell...

 

You're right though, no clear communication - except for the continued reassurance that F2P will not be P2W. But you can always disregard that communication you ask for since you can't trust them...

 

Fanciful stories, paranoia... Maybe lay off the THC, eh, Darth?

 

Continuous reassurance that F2P will not be P2W.

 

In the next breath, the same guy says "boosts" will be in the cash shop.

 

Continuous reassurance that they'll release more content, more often.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm not the one who needs to "lay off the THC". If you can't see the clearly established pattern...

 

Can you do this pattern? -> 1, 3, 5, 7, __, __, __ ?

 

How about this one? -> 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, __, __, __ ?