Sipah Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 dear god... Fan fac and by Micheal Wong?? I consider fan fics to be the lowest form of entertainment. They are just.... ugggghhh. I honestly can't even begin to explain how much I loath fan fiction. Then you add in that Micheal Wong wrote it?? He makes me ashamed to ever admit that I have even watched Star Wars let alone like it. I think i'll pass. I don't really know the guy but listed him since I am not the author. I personally thought it was a well written and entertaining story. Of course anyone on the extreme ends of the current debate will find fault with the author's technical representation, but that is inevitable given this highly passionate crowd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I don't really know the guy but listed him since I am not the author. I personally thought it was a well written and entertaining story. Of course anyone on the extreme ends of the current debate will find fault with the author's technical representation, but that is inevitable given this highly passionate crowd I'm a Star Wars fan i've only seen a few of the Star Trek movies, but I know Wong is a die hard believer in Curtis Saxtons work so he blindly parrots it with out actually thinking of how incredibly wrong it is. I have shown in this thread that the Star Wars numbers that Curtis Saxon came up with for the weapons are 100% wrong. It is absolutely physically impossible for them to do that kind of damage. I didn't even get into the Tie Fighter/ R2 example another one which proves Curtis Saxton is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sipah Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I'm a Star Wars fan i've only seen a few of the Star Trek movies, but I know Wong is a die hard believer in Curtis Saxtons work so he blindly parrots it with out actually thinking of how incredibly wrong it is. I have shown in this thread that the Star Wars numbers that Curtis Saxon came up with for the weapons are 100% wrong. It is absolutely physically impossible for them to do that kind of damage. I didn't even get into the Tie Fighter/ R2 example another one which proves Curtis Saxton is wrong. I get the impression that the directors that make these shows and movies don't read up on the technology developed to flesh out each universe. Their scenes are designed to dazzle the audience with cool explosions and stuff. Unfortunately, this leads to lots of inconsistencies in terms of what exactly happened and whether it is even possible within the defined technology base. For example, the two logs smashing the walker was probably purposely set up to look funny in an anthropomorphic way. It was almost cartoonish and probably made all the kiddies laugh because the teddy bears can kick ***. That is part of the story telling and made the audience happy. But I still won't buy the concept that a bunch of care bears can take down a few battalions of stormtroopers (as inept as they are often portrayed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) I get the impression that the directors that make these shows and movies don't read up on the technology developed to flesh out each universe. Their scenes are designed to dazzle the audience with cool explosions and stuff. Unfortunately, this leads to lots of inconsistencies in terms of what exactly happened and whether it is even possible within the defined technology base. For example, the two logs smashing the walker was probably purposely set up to look funny in an anthropomorphic way. It was almost cartoonish and probably made all the kiddies laugh because the teddy bears can kick ***. That is part of the story telling and made the audience happy. But I still won't buy the concept that a bunch of care bears can take down a few battalions of stormtroopers (as inept as they are often portrayed). With Star Wars that is 100% true. Obviously Lucas didn't know anything about science or physics when he made the movies. He just wanted to tell a interesting story and that's fine. I mean he obviously didn't know a parsec is a unit distance not time. If it was any other movie people would not care or say "hey thats fake, oh well moving on" BUT since Star Wars gained such a strong following especially with nerds it became something else. Really only hardcore fans care so much about contradicitons and inconsistansies. 99% of the worlds population don't care about the technical specs of an x-wing. But the Star Wars fans do. It is because of them that Lucas had to set up the Canon policy in the first place. It's because of them that they have all the schemiatics of all the the ships. Really it doesn't matter but the "type" of fans that Star Wars attracts must have it. So that is why in Star Wars the policiy is what you see on screen is exactly how it happens so that's why Saxton thought he could calculate the strength of all the weapons. Now Saxton is 100% right about the power of the Death Stars main gun. But he is grossly wrong about the numbers for every other weapon. As for the Ewoks beating the Storm troopers... well thats the way it is written. It's even worse in the books btw. In the official novelization it's a bloodbath the stormtroopers get completley destroyed. Edited August 10, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Uh huh... Again... A normal rock... Thrown by a normal human... Can shatter the hull armor of a Star Trek ship. You keep ignoring that. If you really want to nit pick... I already said I was game. We use the numbers, or you admit that by the numbers Trek loses and that in your "What if" universe, Trek wins. Source please... I get the feeling it is from the episode: "Rascals," considering Star Trek Generations has the Saucer Section (which the core structural supports consist of Tritanium plowing through a mountain, I'll be perfectly blunt if it is from the Episode "Rascals" or a few other episodes I can think of, then I would strongly advise you to drop it or I will call you out for being dishonest, which would be a statement of fact. Btw, the TNG Technical manual is considered canon, material and some things in the Trek episodes are considered to be bloopers. The Tech Manual was written with input from the production team for TNG, including the Executive Producers. The Empire couldn't defeat the Federation for one rather simple reason. They would have no clue where any habitable world in the Milky Way is, let alone Earth... Even if they got ahold of Federation astrogation charts, they could never use them because mass shadows (gravity wells) do not affect warp drive. Because Star Wars sensor technology is a complete joke when compared to Archer's Enterprise NX-01, let alone sensors from Kirk's era, and even more laughable when Picard was commanding the Stargazer, I highly doubt a single Imperial ship could even make it to the Alpha Quadrent from the Delta Quadrant, let alone to Earth. ------------------------------------------------------ Also about Imperial ships being larger, unless you're implyingt that Imperial Ships are overweight, you aren't going to prove anything. Romulan Warbirds are at least twice the size of a Galaxy Class starship (upper estimate is 5x the size of a Galaxy Class), and a Galaxy Class starship can actually beat the heck out of a Romulan Warbird in a head to head match up. The even smaller Defiant, can rip a Warbird to pieces. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since someone brought up transphasic torpedos, if the Federation felt like using them, they win period... To give people that don't have any knowledge about Star Trek some idea what transphasic torpedos are and how they work: A transphasic torpedo basically phases through shields and part of the target's hull so that the torpedo is actually inside the target ship when it detonates. Translation you put a transphasic torpedo on the Delta Flyer, a Type XI shuttle, or a type IX shuttle, and it can essentially one-shot a Super Star Destroyer (while the Super Star Destroyer has its' shields up). Transphasic torpedos could do considerable damage to the Death Star, forget about exhaust ports, a Federation Galaxy Class Starship could probably carry 250 Transphasic torpedos (which are similar in size to a regular torpedo otherwise Voyager couldn't have used them in Endgame). You would probably use up the ship's compliment of torpedos, but a Galaxy Class starship could certainly take a Death Star's superlaser out of commission. The reason I don't like ST vs SW debates is because SW fans take things out of context pull bogus numbers out of thin air, and then claim that they are the ones giving numbers and we're being accused of taking things out of context. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rhetorical Question: Is the Millenium Falcon able to fly into the outer atmosphere of a star? Answer: No, it would have been melted down into slag in the attempt. A star trek shuttle craft can, a shuttle craft that is probably 1/3 the size of the Millenium Falcon (which sports shields meant for a capital starship I might add). If the numbers SW fans are giving are remotely accurate (which they aren't) the Millenium Falcon would be able to fly through a star (quite literally) and come out the other side unscathed. However the Millenium Falcon isn't even capable of surviving the outer atmosphere of a star, the ship would be fried, yet a standard Federation shuttle that is 1/3rd the size of the Falcon can not only survive the outer atmosphere of the star, it emerges unscathed. Rhetorical Question: Can the Millenium Falcon survive crushing pressures found in a Jovian Atmosphere? Answer: No, it can't it would be crushed like an egg. The Delta Flyer actually entered a Jovian atmosphere diving deep inside to retrieve some object or other (I didn't follow Voyager that closely so don't remember the name of the Episode). The Flyer took some damage in the process, but that is immaterial because it survived it and after some repairs it was able to fly again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Concerning the Death Star, got news for Star Wars fans, Star Trek has seen Planet Killers as well, and the planet killer in Star Trek was substancially smaller than a Death Star. 1. The USS Enterprise NCC-1701 survived some hits from said Planet Killer. 2. Another Constitution Class Starship took heavy damage from it but was later used to render said planet killer inoperable. You have 23rd century starships surviving blasts that are about the equivalent of the DS superlaser and are telling me that a 24th century starship couldn't stand up to a measely super star destroyer, let alone an Imperial Star Destroyer, looks more like the Star Destroyer would be a complete and total joke. Then we have the TNG episode: "Relics" and got news for some Wars fans, an out of date wreck of a Starship pulled stunts that an Star Wars ship of a similar size just quite frankly couldn't do. That ship didn't even have main power for crying out loud... While Grand Admiral Thrawn had some star destroyers go near a star before and ended up waylaid for weeks afterward for repairs, problem for Star Wars fans is that USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D easily topped this feat. The Galaxy Class starship entered the outer atmosphere of a star to evade a Borg ship, the Enterprise was operating on Impulse power having taken damage to one of the warp nacells. The Enterprise then triggered a solar eruption which destroyed the Borg ship. This is in the Star Trek Episodes Descent Parts I and II. For example, the two logs smashing the walker was probably purposely set up to look funny in an anthropomorphic way. It was almost cartoonish and probably made all the kiddies laugh because the teddy bears can kick ***. That is part of the story telling and made the audience happy. But I still won't buy the concept that a bunch of care bears can take down a few battalions of stormtroopers (as inept as they are often portrayed). Well from what I've read about AT-STs, it is quite believable, a lot of Wars fans have no clue about the specs of vehicles in Star Wars, the AT-ST is fairly lightly armored and there are some weak spots that a small blaster can cause significant damage. The idea that it could be smashed by 2 logs is quite accurate. I also have the Star Wars Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. Edited August 11, 2012 by GarfieldJL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbelMorvant Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Actually we don't know that Q could do that. The continuum doesn't exactly like it when Q's start pulling things and we don't know how the Force interacts with a Q. The force is just gas released from Q's **** on Taco Bell Tuesdays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Well from what I've read about AT-STs, it is quite believable, a lot of Wars fans have no clue about the specs of vehicles in Star Wars, the AT-ST is fairly lightly armored and there are some weak spots that a small blaster can cause significant damage. The idea that it could be smashed by 2 logs is quite accurate. I also have the Star Wars Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. well of course it's accurate it's in the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Q isn't going to be a factor because it's not like he even favors any particular race of Star Trek, and since guys like Spock or Picard can convince him to change his mind, it'd be trivial for someone like Thrawn or Leia or any number of the charismatic leaders of Star Wars to talk him into at least staying neutral if not giving them an edge. Certainly Thrawn will solve any challenge he set forth pretty trivially should the universe of Star Wars needs to prove themselves somehow. Technology wise both series can talk about how stupidly powerful their weapons can be but both seem to have 'blow up a planet' as the most devastating form of warfare, not including whatever happened during the Continuum civil war (and nobody outside of Q could have access to these weapons anyway). Hyperdrive, based on the quoted speed, would mean that Star Trek universe would be unable to defend themselves against certain attacks even if they saw it coming, and the manufacturing capability of the two universes is vastly different (trillions of people died in the Yuuzhan Vong invasion but the Galactic Alliance still continued fighting, can't imagine any Star Trek human-based alliance shrug that off). Let's say you just equalize speed and production capability (for some reason they never had too many ships in Star Wars even though they have millions of planets). However the Star Wars universe is geared toward producing great leader because it's not like Star Trek where if you 'tech the tech' you can solve the problem. Even in the world with Force you can see the culture values military geniuses. Thrawn is an obvious example but any of the famous admirals/generals are presumably battle tested and know fighting in and out, whereas the qualification to be an admiral in Star Trek seems to be "I once was captain of a big ship and fought some aliens". The fact that Star Wars universe is constantly at war would mean it'll produce more leaders, though depending on which point in time you could catch Star Wars vulnerable when its latest batch of great military leaders just died. For example, if the two uinverse fought immediately after Thrawn was assassinated, then it might be pretty even since Pelloeon at that point hasn't had time to digest what he learned from Thrawn and the New Republic seems to be running on a system of nepotism (no reason why Wedge or Lando should be generals at all). If Bel Iblis fell out of power due to some internal struggle you'd probably have an average joe at best running the Star Wars war campaign, though they'd still have Admiral Ackbar even in this particularly bad scenario. Edited August 11, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Source please... Quite a few places actually. Look. You are a Trek fanatic. No matter what I source, no matter what I say, you are going to twist it in some way. So I am just going to agree to disagree with you and cease further discussion with you. You go your way, I'll go mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Karsk Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) I just love how beyond ignorant the star trek fans are and clueless when it comes to the star wars universe,as i said earlier star wars tech in lighyears ahead of the stoneage teck they use in star trek, know before you speak out of nothing else then beeing a blindfanboy/girl.And to even bring up a silly God character, awesome character but silly is just plain dumb, and i think John de Lancie would agree. Edited August 11, 2012 by Lord_Karsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I just love how beyond ignorant the star trek fans are and clueless when it comes to the star wars universe,as i said earlier star wars tech in lighyears ahead of the stoneage teck they use in star trek, know before you speak out of nothing else then beeing a blindfanboy/girl.And to even bring up a silly God character, awesome character but silly is just plain dumb, and i think John de Lancie would agree. At best Q would be like 'let me show you a universe that can own you' and then separate the universes again when Picard beg him for forgivance. It's not going to be like 'hey Q can you make Star Wars cease existing". He may somewhat favor the humans but it's not like he's going to annihilate another universe just for them and if anything the guys in Star Wars are probably more interesting to him anywa, since Q seems to be more interested in the ugly part of humanity and there's a lot more of that in Star Wars with the constant backstabbing. Even within the New/Old Republic there's plenty of shady guys and pretty much everyone in the Sith Empire by definition is a shady guy. Even with the no Force user thing, it's not like guys in the Sith Empire stop being shady. All those guys backstabbing each other would still do it even without the Force. Q will probably defect to join the Sith Empire just because he'd enjoy seeing how humans play around with his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Quite a few places actually. Look. You are a Trek fanatic. No matter what I source, no matter what I say, you are going to twist it in some way. So I am just going to agree to disagree with you and cease further discussion with you. You go your way, I'll go mine. I'm not a Star Trek fan. I'm still waiting for you to come up with some proof that Star Wars weapons are as powerful as you say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I'm not a Star Trek fan. I'm still waiting for you to come up with some proof that Star Wars weapons are as powerful as you say Tech manual. Official source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaerisKiran Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 BUT I AGREE that without any force or magic or anything the STAR WARS uni wins hands down. They are like 50000 years more advanced. Not really just have more and bigger ships... tech itself is inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaerisKiran Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Tech manual. Official source. AT-AT fire against Rebel line isn´t exactly eficient... not to mention it is not actualy very explosive. In fact nowadays infantery mortal grenades could do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Karsk Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 AT-AT fire against Rebel line isn´t exactly eficient... not to mention it is not actualy very explosive. In fact nowadays infantery mortal grenades could do better. So 1 AT AT should wipe rebel aliance in 1 shot and end of movie^trilogy ^^ were is the fun in that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Tech manual. Official source. do you mean the ICS? Which the numbers for are 100% wrong as they contradict the movies? like I said before all Star Wars plasma based weapons would be 100% ineffective against a ship that could produce a magnetic field. Edited August 11, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaerisKiran Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 So 1 AT AT should wipe rebel aliance in 1 shot and end of movie^trilogy ^^ were is the fun in that Nowhere but since I doubt Ice it was hitting had different properties than ours it is quite easily possible to see it´s firepower per shot (which easily seems to be outclased by M1-Abrams) however I do admit that it has advantages- faster rate of fire, non-balistic trajectory, easy operation in vacuum, no recoil. (and when it blasted shied generator away it most likely did fire more powerful bolt- but it also seemed to require quite a charging to do it. Arguably star destroyers pack a lot more firepower, but not to that hellish extent- when shields went down Echo base on Hoth WAS bombarded from orbit (otherwise you know... the passage would not cave in and Leia would not end on the Falcon. But that generaly means average firepower in given time could not exceed level of few kiloton nuke. (And since Echo base was more or less left intact and captured...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaruin Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 do you mean the ICS? Which the numbers for are 100% wrong as they contradict the movies? like I said before all Star Wars plasma based weapons would be 100% ineffective against a ship that could produce a magnetic field. Would it really be? I can force two magnets together that repel each other. So it would depend on how strong the magnetic field is and how fast the plasma moves. No, wait, not how fast it moves but it's momentum. Wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Would it really be? I can force two magnets together that repel each other. So it would depend on how strong the magnetic field is and how fast the plasma moves. No, wait, not how fast it moves but it's momentum. Wouldn't it? of course you can but it stands to reason that if they can make a magnetic field they could easily make it strong enough to repeal the plasma blast. I actually have a couple magnets laying around my classroom that are too strong to be pushed together by humans. My electromagnets are also a ton of fun. A simple iron core and 2 9 volt batteries and i can make it so football players can't even pull them apart or push them together. The magnetic field around the plasma is going to have to be incredibly strong. The faster it moves the stronger it will have to be to keep all the plasma together. So all the star trek guys have to do is create a similar magnetic field and it will repel it. Seeing as they have enough power for warp drive a simple strong magnetic field shouldn't be a problem. Of course seeing how horrible the Empire is at aiming I don't think this will even be an issue since I doubt they would even be able to hit it. Edited August 11, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaerisKiran Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 The magnetic field around the plasma is going to have to be incredibly strong. The faster it moves the stronger it will have to be to keep all the plasma together. So all the star trek guys have to do is create a similar magnetic field and it will repel it. Seeing as they have enough power for warp drive a simple strong magnetic field shouldn't be a problem. Of course seeing how horrible the Empire is at aiming I don't think this will even be an issue since I doubt they would even be able to hit it. Well is ST they actualy do not have plasma beams of such magnificent power either... beam range is really small, they mostly end with pulse fire. Compared to this... everybody is ameteur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainscarbeard Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 The Galactic Empire(RotJ, not post-RotJ) vs The Dominion (DS9) Dominion. They'd throw the Jem'Hadar at them just long enough to get a changeling to impersonate the emperor. The Borg Collective vs the Galactic Alliance. Borg. The alliance has numbers, so they'd maybe take out a cube or two before the Borg adapt. Even Jedi wouldn't buy them much time, because Midichlorians could likely be assimilated too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaerisKiran Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Dominion. They'd throw the Jem'Hadar at them just long enough to get a changeling to impersonate the emperor. Why bother? Just manipulate Imperial fleet to one system and dump a protomatter explosive into star. (By inferno´s light...) nova will wipe it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XyriusSES Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 The Founders are gods, sry m8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lodril Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Here's what I don't get about all this. The comparisons you see of the technologies and resources involved are all in-continuity. At no point do you see the Star Trek and Star Wars things pitted against the same opponents, so there's no base-line on which to judge their technology in military terms. That's not to say that there aren't other objective factors. Foremost, and framing much of my remarks, time since leaving their homeworld. Star Trek, depending on which civilization and which iteration of the series you take, has been zipping around faster than light for a few centuries, perhaps a millennia. The Galactic Republic has been around for tens of thousands of years, and combined from space faring civilizations existing before it, so presumably their space-faring cultures begun far earlier than that, and took time to expand outwards. Therefore, on that basis alone it is likely that any of those iterations of Star Wars governments have technology that is as far ahead from Star Trek as we are from the bronze age. Secondly, you can compare political accomplishments. Civilizations in Star Trek exist within quarters of their galaxy. The largest I'm aware of occupies an entire quarter of the galaxy. The Galactic Empire, however, has very few competitors, and occupies the lion's share of their potential political sphere. They have a senate with thousands of races represented, each with presumably trillions of similarly predicated species back home. Thirdly, compare distances involved. It takes the Enterprise five years to cruise through their quarter of the galaxy and back. Conversely, when Anakin is on the verge of death, the Emperor senses that he has been hurt, organizes a search party, crosses half the galaxy (Coruscant at the center to Mustafar on the outer rim) and still arrives in time to apply first aid before Anakin dies from his severe injuries or the poisonous fumes all around him. Speed is vastly in favor of the Star Wars chaps, which makes sense given their extra 10,000+ years of technological development. Fourthly, the only other easily directly comparable technology I can think of is robot intelligences. Data is one of a handful created by an eccentric genius. Conversely, C3P0 is one of millions of similar intelligences, and was assembled by a clever child. Therefore, the Galactic Republic's children are educated to the point that the cleverest of them are as capable in their idle tinkering as the smartest human dedicated to a given art in the Federation. It seems a little crazy, but think of this - today a child could build a catapult, a device which would have astonished most engineers in the bronze age. Time marches on. Bitter medicine for those that want to argue Trek's technological and military parity, I'm afraid, but the facts just aren't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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