Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

[ProfessorWalsh]

Wow, lot's of stuff to answer...

 

 

 

Seismic Charges are f*cking dangerous. I guess they are banned throughout the galaxy and high end black marked technology. They are more powerful than photon torpedos, especially because they can send a shockwave in space!!!

 

But they don't destroy asteroids completely, it scatters them into several parts. I don't know the exact episode in which this is done in Star Trek, but I think they did want to destroy the asteroid completely, not just split it into some parts. Do you know which episode it was?

 

Unsure, there were several that had problems with asteroids.

 

Several people have posted about the Hoth asteroids. If they also explode when they hit each other, or a ship, they are weird asteroids. But doubt nearly every complete desintegration we see in Star Wars end Star Trek. Special effects are limited after all, normally everything should leave debris.

 

But I will say that the Executers turbo lasers are powerful enough to destroy asteroids that much that they don't pose a threat for the ship anymore. So I could see a single Executer turbolaser shot doing critical damage on the Enterprise if the shields are down.

 

I still say, based on power output, the Executor would blow holes through the shield and ship.

 

But there is a special scene in RotS: When Grievous ship and a Venetor fire at each other, they have no reason to tone their turbolasers down. You see a shot of a cannon on each ship getting destroyed, so the shields in this section must be down, but the turbolaser bolt didn't pierce through the whole ship.

 

That is due to the material the hull and the ship are made of. Star Wars has something Star Trek doesn't again, in this case "Durasteel" which is basically what Star Trek calls "Quantum Armor" and it is common in Star Wars while super rare in Star Trek and in Star Trek that armor "cannot be penetrated" even by quantum torpedoes.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Note, it's not simply punching through it, it is vaporizing it. In other words, a Type I hand Phaser could probably destroy an AT-ST. A Type II and Type III probably could do the same without discharging all the energy in the power cell to do it. So we a weapon that is smaller than Han Solo's blaster, that can take down Scout Walkers.

 

No. It couldn't. Durasteel is not Tritanium. Durasteel, as described in Star Wars has a counterpart in Star Trek. In Star Trek it was called "Quantum armor" and it was, according to TNG, "Indestructible." Though they could not reproduce it due to the creator taking the secret to his grave.

 

So what would happen is this:

 

Phaser fires at AT-ST, AT-ST takes the hit, turns, the shot has no effect, and the AT-ST blasts the federation person who tried it.

 

However Durasteel does have a weakness. It is highly flexible and can be deformed by concussive blows of significant enough mass. The Ewoks actually were able to use this to their advantage.

[onexsora]

I never really watched star trek, i think ive seen like a few episodes but didnt like it, to me star wars is better.

[Vespassian]

It's Star Wars.. Nuff' said. Star Wars is still a huge franchise, and people even compare it to Star Trek? lawl

[jarjarloves]

Unsure, there were several that had problems with asteroids.

 

 

 

I still say, based on power output, the Executor would blow holes through the shield and ship.

 

 

 

That is due to the material the hull and the ship are made of. Star Wars has something Star Trek doesn't again, in this case "Durasteel" which is basically what Star Trek calls "Quantum Armor" and it is common in Star Wars while super rare in Star Trek and in Star Trek that armor "cannot be penetrated" even by quantum torpedoes.

 

Yeah durasteel can't even stand up to even wood. We also see Storm Trooper armor can't stop a wooden arrow and it cracks when a storm trooper rolls down a hill.

 

As for the Asteroids the one that hits the Star Destroyer they use the same special effect as when it is hit with the turbo laser. It's actually the same explosion and it completely destroys the entire tower. So there is absolutely no question that it is the asteroid that has the power and not the turbolaser.

 

 

Additionally if the Turbo lasers did have a force equal to that of a nucearl weapon as the ICCS says then when a ship got hit with and it survived it would end up spinning off into space at close to light speed. The force hitting it would be incredible. The passengers inside would be liquefied. The acceleration would be like 100 Gs.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Yeah durasteel can't even stand up to even wood. We also see Storm Trooper armor can't stop a wooden arrow and it cracks when a storm trooper rolls down a hill.

 

Do you really really want to play the game where we start nit picking flaws in the others tech? I mean... Do you seriously want to do that? You know... How Star Trek ships and shields can't handle a lightning strike? How about how shields aren't capable of stopping a normal missile? Do we want to get into the fact that they showed a normal rock, thrown by a human, shatter "tritanium plating" in an episode?

 

I mean... If you want to go there... We can but... Since Star Trek has had multiple TV shows they have had a lot more room for catastrophic mistakes.

 

You are trying to ignore the source material based on nit picks, also, it wasn't "wood" that broke the AT-ST, Durasteel is highly flexible, it was two logs slamming into it simultaneously causing it to deform which crushed the cockpit.

 

But if we want to play the nit-pick game...

 

We have seen a spear, thrown by a human, crack the hull of a Trek ship.

 

We have seen a normal lightning strike cause the sheilds to fail and fry "half of systems on the ship" and this went right through the shields mind you.

 

If a normal lightning bolt can do that, then I'd hate to see what an ion canon can do.

 

Additionally if the Turbo lasers did have a force equal to that of a nucearl weapon as the ICCS says then when a ship got hit with and it survived it would end up spinning off into space at close to light speed. The force hitting it would be incredible. The passengers inside would be liquefied. The acceleration would be like 100 Gs.

 

Explained in canon. There is something called inertial compensators at play that prevent the things you mentioned from happening. Judging from how people get knocked around on Trek ships from pretty much any impact no matter how weak it just shows Trek doesn't have them.

Edited August 10, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Aurbere]

Trek just doesn't have the same kind of firepower that Star Wars does. I never really got into Trek, but what I do know is, that a big cruiser like the Providence class could decimate a Federation cruiser. And don't get me started with what ISD's could do. The ISD was the most powerful cruiser of its time and remained as such until the GA leaned more heavily on Mon Cal ship designs. And a Viscount Mon Cal cruiser has been shown to duke it out with multiple Executor class SSD's. I forget where, but I remember seeing something about that. So take it as you will.

 

As for ground. Star Wars again. Like I said, I don't know much about Trek so I don't know much about their military ground strategies, but I do know that all Star Wars military's have a lot of good tacticians like Veers and Grievous who could turn a battle around easily. That's really what anything comes down to: tactics. Again, I don't know much about Trek so I will only post the great tacticians of Star Wars, feel free to post up some Trek techinicians. Tacticians like Veers, Vader, Grievous, Thrawn, and Palleon to name a few accomplished great things and won many victories. If you have any of these guys leading the charge, I think Trek is going to lose.

[AshlaBoga]

Star Trek would win due to it's technological advantage (which I will explain below) but it would probably be a very pyrrhic victory.

 

1. Faster than Light Travel

-Warp Travel vs. Hyperdrive

Winner: Hyperdrive

 

Warp Travelin Star Trek is about 1000-2000 lightyears per year.

Hyperdrive? In excess of 100,000 lightyears per WEEK.

A couple of Stark Trek species such as the Borg have Transwarp, which is comparable to Hyperdrive, but the Federation and it's neighbors don't.

 

2. Shields

Winner: Star Trek

Why? Because the shields in Star Wars come in 3 types - protects against solid matter (ships), protects against energy (blaster fire), and protects against both.

The Star Trek shields protect against both so there's that. But mostly because unfinished or not, needing to put your battle stations shield generator on a nearby planet is a complete disadvantage.

 

3. Scanning technology

Winner: Star Trek

BY A LONG SHOT. Tricorders seem to be better than any Star Wars scanning device that I'm aware of.

[Smuglebunny]

All the most powerfull force users would be blinked out of exsistance by Q instantly. So Star Trek wins...

 

Greatest power in Star Trek Universe Vs. every living thing in Star Wars Universe = Star Trek wins.

 

As far as technology the Star Wars universe is far more advanced than the star trek uni.

 

There is no way to decide this.

[GarfieldJL]

No. It couldn't. Durasteel is not Tritanium. Durasteel, as described in Star Wars has a counterpart in Star Trek. In Star Trek it was called "Quantum armor" and it was, according to TNG, "Indestructible." Though they could not reproduce it due to the creator taking the secret to his grave.

 

I think you have the hull of the Sun Crusher confused with durasteel, durasteel is nowhere near that strong. Next you'll be claiming that Transparent aluminum as seen in Star Trek IV is more fragile than a glass vase.... Considering the amount of pressure forced on 1 inch thick transparent aluminum holding back thousands of gallons of water and 2 humpback whales, seems to me you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

So what would happen is this:

 

Phaser fires at AT-ST, AT-ST takes the hit, turns, the shot has no effect, and the AT-ST blasts the federation person who tried it.

 

However Durasteel does have a weakness. It is highly flexible and can be deformed by concussive blows of significant enough mass. The Ewoks actually were able to use this to their advantage.

 

 

Another, the ignorant Death Star is larger than a dyson sphere moments....

 

A hand phaser type I easily has more firepower than a blaster rifle, it has been seen on multiple Star Trek Episodes (and a Type I (which is something an average crewman has) can easily fit in the palm of your hand).

 

There is a reason why I go to the Technical manuals rather than looking at blooper reels to find any little nitpicky mistake I can to misrepresent things.

 

The 'fragile tritanium incident' you mention was something that occurred after the tritanium had been exposed to something which had rendered it brittle, like a quantum distortion that caused it to seperate into the base components some of which was incredibly brittle (tritanium is an alloy, it would be like saying steel is brittle by breaking a stick of graphite). Btw, Star Trek: Generations completely contradicts your claims of tritanium and duranium's fragility, considering the fact the Saucer Section crashed into a mountain without shattering into a million pieces.

 

Star Trek ships easily pull off turns at 25% the speed of light, got news for you pal if things were really that fragile the ship would tear itself apart every time it turned on the impulse engines...

 

Furthermore the Hoth Asteroids were not Iron, in fact most asteroids are composed of lighter materials than iron. If there were that much iron in the Hoth Asteroid belt, there would be another planet in the Hoth System. There is a reason Earth's core is molten iron as well as other heavy elements...

 

Trek just doesn't have the same kind of firepower that Star Wars does. I never really got into Trek, but what I do know is, that a big cruiser like the Providence class could decimate a Federation cruiser. And don't get me started with what ISD's could do. The ISD was the most powerful cruiser of its time and remained as such until the GA leaned more heavily on Mon Cal ship designs. And a Viscount Mon Cal cruiser has been shown to duke it out with multiple Executor class SSD's. I forget where, but I remember seeing something about that. So take it as you will.

 

Sarcasm: I wasn't aware that a Corellian Corvette was capable of blowing up a planet?

Got news for you, an Oberth Class Science vessel could blow up a planet though. Antimatter makes the H bomb look like a small balloon popping in comparison, that is scientific fact. A galaxy class starship has 3,000 m^3 worth of slush anti-deuterium (deuterium actually does exist it is an isotope of Hydrogen), I'll let someone else do the calculations as to how much the mass of the anti-deuterium is (it is in a slush form, meaning liquid/solid state), an Oberth class science vessel supposedly carries even more antimatter than that...

 

As for ground. Star Wars again. Like I said, I don't know much about Trek so I don't know much about their military ground strategies, but I do know that all Star Wars military's have a lot of good tacticians like Veers and Grievous who could turn a battle around easily. That's really what anything comes down to: tactics. Again, I don't know much about Trek so I will only post the great tacticians of Star Wars, feel free to post up some Trek techinicians. Tacticians like Veers, Vader, Grievous, Thrawn, and Palleon to name a few accomplished great things and won many victories. If you have any of these guys leading the charge, I think Trek is going to lose.

 

Sarcasm: I wasn't aware that Han Solo's blaster could actually vaporize a 5 ft 8 in human, quite literally...

Edited August 10, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Maaruin]

Unsure, there were several that had problems with asteroids.

 

I think there was also one were the Voyager destroyed an asteroid with one torpedo, a smaller one though. But I'm not sure.

 

I still say, based on power output, the Executor would blow holes through the shield and ship.

 

And I still say the shield is capable of blocking it. I'm no expert in both areas, so I'll leave it to those who know more.

 

That is due to the material the hull and the ship are made of. Star Wars has something Star Trek doesn't again, in this case "Durasteel" which is basically what Star Trek calls "Quantum Armor" and it is common in Star Wars while super rare in Star Trek and in Star Trek that armor "cannot be penetrated" even by quantum torpedoes.

 

So this is how it works:

 

It looks like weapons with reasonable energy levels do reasonable damage on reasonable strong metal.

 

But then you make the weapons super powerful. Oh, they would pierce through the whole ship? Well, make the metal super powerful too.

 

Nah, I'll stay with more believable speccs. (And I do think Star Trekk will loose because of significantly less resources.)

 

 

But, assuming the Durasteel thing is right: Why do the Stortroopers inside the Tantive IV tone their blasters down to a level that they don't pierce through even one enemy, of there is no danger of destroying the inpenetrable durasteel.

[GarfieldJL]

I think there was also one were the Voyager destroyed an asteroid with one torpedo, a smaller one though. But I'm not sure.

 

There was also a TNG episode where a few torpedos pretty much decimated part of an asteroid field, but in fairness that field was probably artificially made to serve as a trap.

 

And I still say the shield is capable of blocking it. I'm no expert in both areas, so I'll leave it to those who know more.

 

Maaruin, the numbers that the professor is giving is a bunch of balonie...

 

To give you a rough idea of the kind of stress a Galaxy Class Starship routinely underwent.

 

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class

If you look at that, it says that a galaxy class is 4,500,000 metric tons, in order to go from 0 to 25% the speed of light in a matter of seconds, the amount of acceleration would be enormous, thus the idea that a Trek ship is so fragile that a human can break the hull by throwing a rock at it, is rather laughable.

 

So this is how it works:

 

It looks like weapons with reasonable energy levels do reasonable damage on reasonable strong metal.

 

But then you make the weapons super powerful. Oh, they would pierce through the whole ship? Well, make the metal super powerful too.

 

Nah, I'll stay with more believable speccs. (And I do think Star Trekk will loose because of significantly less resources.)

 

 

But, assuming the Durasteel thing is right: Why do the Stortroopers inside the Tantive IV tone their blasters down to a level that they don't pierce through even one enemy, of there is no danger of destroying the inpenetrable durasteel.

 

It's cause blasters don't have the firepower that the "Professor" is claiming, in Star Trek hand phasers are automatically restricted to lower settings while aboard ship to avoid accidentally punching a hole in the hull, this can be overridden by Security.

 

I don't dispute Hyperdrives being faster than Warp Drive, but you have to drop out of Hyperspace to change course, plus you are entirely blind. In Star Trek, a ship at warp can change course, can see where it is going, even fire torpedos at a pursuer while at warp.

 

Star Trek Generations also proves that a Star Trek ship is a heck of a lot tougher than what is being claimed by some Star Wars fans.

 

 

I actually think Star Wars ships would largely be considered rather primitive in the Star Trek universe.

Edited August 10, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Sipah]

I actually think Star Wars ships would largely be considered rather primitive in the Star Trek universe.

 

 

I can agree that Trek technology is more elegant and advanced in many critical areas. However, I would describe their technical superiority as a tactical advantage vs. a strategic advantage. The Empire's approach is very simple: 'build it bigger and make it fast.'

 

The strategic advantage of hyperdrive vs. warp drive is huge. The Empire has the resources and industrial might to build huge armadas of city-sized ships. They can hyper over to a Federation planet, slag it, and hyper out before the Federation can even respond in strength (probably days later). The Federation would be spread too thin trying to defend all their member planets screaming for protection from the onslaught.

 

Also, how much more advanced does Trek technology have to be in order to beat the Goliath that is the Empire? We're talking about a couple hundred worlds against 1.5 million worlds. Would the Empire even notice that the Federation is attacking? What happens if the Empire inevitably captures a Federation ship with its technology intact before it could auto-destruct? I bet the Sith interrogators will make the ship engineers quickly spill their secrets and guts in that order. An Empire that now has access to Federation technology is even scarier. Now if the Federation captures an Imperial ship, they are less likely to benefit since they don't have the economic base to produce enough ships to counter the Empire.

 

History has shown that battles can be won by technological superiority but wars are generally won by whoever has the greatest resources, logistics, and industrial base, all of which the Empire has an overwhelming advantage.

[Maaruin]

History has shown that battles can be won by technological superiority but wars are generally won by whoever has the greatest resources, logistics, and industrial base, all of which the Empire has an overwhelming advantage.

 

^This.

 

The only thing the Federation could do is go into hit&run attacks like the rebels. And probably join the rebels, their ideals seem to be similar.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Maaruin

[ProfessorWalsh]

Even if we say that Star Trek vessels can slag any Wars vessel with ease, with full shields intact, without a scratch of damage (Yeah, not possible, but whatever) the Star Trek universe simply cannot compete.

 

Lets assume that Star Wars vessels are the equivalent of TOS ships, the numbers say otherwise, but Trekkies won't budge on being the best regardless of what tech manuals say.

 

There is still Hyperdrive.

 

Hyperdrive alone makes it impossible for the Federation to win.

 

We know, for example, that the Star Wars galaxy is 2x the size of our real galaxy, which is the same galaxy that Trek takes place in.

 

A ship can traverse, in Wars, from one end of the Galaxy to the other in about 6 weeks.

A Trek Ship can traverse, in Trek, from one end of the Galaxy tot he other in about 150 years.

 

So... Here is what happens...

 

The Imperials set up Star Bases somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant. The fastest the feds can get there is 75 years. Meaning Trek can't attack high command or the ship building facilities.

 

Wars has huge numbers, dwarfing the Federation.

 

Here is the first strike:

 

Wars sets loose 18,002 Star Destroyers... Assume... I dunno... 2 Super Star Destroyers, 6,000 Imperial Star Destroyers, 12,000 Victory class Star Destroyers, and lets assume around another 20,000 cruisers and other Imperial ships.

 

So we are talking about 38,002 capital ships, each filled with a full compliment.

 

These ships hit Earth.

 

Earth has no way to know they are coming before they get there, they might detect something, but they don't have anything there to stop that kind of an attack. 38,002 ships pop out of Hyperspace. In a matter of seconds after that the Federation would attempt to talk to the Empire, this is the standard Federation MO. The Imperials respond by opening fire.

 

The Earth is destroyed, there might even be heavy losses on the Imperial side, but the Federation just lost Earth and Earth's shipyards. No ships can possibly respond in time. Once Federation ships arrive all they find is a scorched Earth and fields of debris. Starfleet is in shambles and aside from some recovered video footage nobody knows where these ships came from or where they went.

 

The Federation is suddenly in trouble. The loss of Earth as well as their shipyards as well as tons of defending ships means the Federation is vulnerable. This would cause the Federation to fracture at the foundations, as every other episode deals with some faction or another within the Federation having a problem with the Federation and with the massive loss the Federation just suffered they will suddenly be facing internal strife with no ability to hold it together.

 

The Imperials then simply appear, picking Federation targets at random, using no pattern, but always with the same MO. Every few weeks a huge fleet drops out of warp and slags a planet, a space station, or whatever. They are always gone before the Federation ships can get there. They strike from an unknown location and fade away just as fast.

 

Within a year the Federation falls.

[ProfessorWalsh]

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class

If you look at that, it says that a galaxy class is 4,500,000 metric tons, in order to go from 0 to 25% the speed of light in a matter of seconds, the amount of acceleration would be enormous, thus the idea that a Trek ship is so fragile that a human can break the hull by throwing a rock at it, is rather laughable.

 

To quote some of the Trekkies here...

 

"It happened on screen so we can't really dispute it!"

 

Sure it was likely simply a mistake of filming and the ship wasn't supposed to get scratched, but they kept the shot in, we saw a rock shatter the side panel of a shuttlecraft and we have seen, in Generations, a rock gouge a hole in the side of the NCC 1701-D as the D crashed down to the planet.

[Maaruin]

Even if we say that Star Trek vessels can slag any Wars vessel with ease, with full shields intact, without a scratch of damage (Yeah, not possible, but whatever) the Star Trek universe simply cannot compete.

 

Lets assume that Star Wars vessels are the equivalent of TOS ships, the numbers say otherwise, but Trekkies won't budge on being the best regardless of what tech manuals say.

 

There is still Hyperdrive.

 

Hyperdrive alone makes it impossible for the Federation to win.

 

We know, for example, that the Star Wars galaxy is 2x the size of our real galaxy, which is the same galaxy that Trek takes place in.

 

A ship can traverse, in Wars, from one end of the Galaxy to the other in about 6 weeks.

A Trek Ship can traverse, in Trek, from one end of the Galaxy tot he other in about 150 years.

 

So... Here is what happens...

 

The Imperials set up Star Bases somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant. The fastest the feds can get there is 75 years. Meaning Trek can't attack high command or the ship building facilities.

 

Wars has huge numbers, dwarfing the Federation.

 

Here is the first strike:

 

Wars sets loose 18,002 Star Destroyers... Assume... I dunno... 2 Super Star Destroyers, 6,000 Imperial Star Destroyers, 12,000 Victory class Star Destroyers, and lets assume around another 20,000 cruisers and other Imperial ships.

 

So we are talking about 38,002 capital ships, each filled with a full compliment.

 

These ships hit Earth.

 

Earth has no way to know they are coming before they get there, they might detect something, but they don't have anything there to stop that kind of an attack. 38,002 ships pop out of Hyperspace. In a matter of seconds after that the Federation would attempt to talk to the Empire, this is the standard Federation MO. The Imperials respond by opening fire.

 

The Earth is destroyed, there might even be heavy losses on the Imperial side, but the Federation just lost Earth and Earth's shipyards. No ships can possibly respond in time. Once Federation ships arrive all they find is a scorched Earth and fields of debris. Starfleet is in shambles and aside from some recovered video footage nobody knows where these ships came from or where they went.

 

The Federation is suddenly in trouble. The loss of Earth as well as their shipyards as well as tons of defending ships means the Federation is vulnerable. This would cause the Federation to fracture at the foundations, as every other episode deals with some faction or another within the Federation having a problem with the Federation and with the massive loss the Federation just suffered they will suddenly be facing internal strife with no ability to hold it together.

 

The Imperials then simply appear, picking Federation targets at random, using no pattern, but always with the same MO. Every few weeks a huge fleet drops out of warp and slags a planet, a space station, or whatever. They are always gone before the Federation ships can get there. They strike from an unknown location and fade away just as fast.

 

Within a year the Federation falls.

 

That's the way you do it.

 

That's a scenario I can actually believe. Yes, the federation fails and what's left of Star Fleet joins the rebels.

 

But I guess the Empire would want to conquer the Federation, so it would make counter attacks possible. But the Empire just has so much more ships and can bring them in far more quickly, the Federation would still loose.

 

After they joined the rebels and adapt to their tactics, they might be helpful though. Eventually the rebels and the federation will found the new republic. The Federation would be a member of it, or maybe one of its smaller allies.

[DarkForster]

As much as I prefer star wars , IMHO Star trek tng+ would win.

 

1st vastly superior technology in all but hyperspace vs warp but that would be solved by the easy capture of even a hyperspace capable fighter.

 

Star treks tiny fit in the palm of your had phaser is vastly more destructive that largest auto cannon/blaster rifle.

 

With a massive force such as empire invading, the klingons (since empire has no honor & they are already allies at end) , the romulans , Cardassians (to survive) would join forces with federation.

 

Transporters would offer huge advantage just beam over bombs into ea ch capital ship since star wars sheild are relatively primative and easily bypassed since they are simple single frequency.

 

Plus in actual space combat trek ships have huge speed advantage, zip in bypass shielding beam over bomb warp out = capital ship vaporized.

 

Plus targeting systems for star wars turbolasers are horrible, just 1 shuttlecraft with bomb per capital ship would decimate the empires vast superiority in capital ships.

 

The federation planets systems all have automated defense systems, heavily shielded very large yield photon torpedoes designed to take out any ship entering and phaser satilities.

Edited August 10, 2012 by DarkForster

[Nydus]

All the most powerfull force users would be blinked out of exsistance by Q instantly. So Star Trek wins...

 

Laughing so incredibly hard right now...

 

Completely true; Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, and every Sith Lord that ever existed would be blinked out of the Universe without ever having existed in the time it takes to snap your fingers .

 

However, considering the OPer took out force users from his scenarios we should probably remove Q from the scenario too to balance it out.

 

To the posters that are getting into a Star Wars vs. Star Trek "which is the better franchise" argument, go start your own thread please. The Original Poster demonstrated a knowledge (and like) of both universes so I think it is appropriate to continue that in that vein.

 

I like Trek an awful lot, but I'm on a bloody Star Wars message board so obviously I like this franchise too.

 

- Ord'os

Edited August 10, 2012 by Nydus

[Nydus]

But I guess the Empire would want to conquer the Federation, so it would make counter attacks possible. But the Empire just has so much more ships and can bring them in far more quickly, the Federation would still loose.

 

Aren't you -- and everybody else -- forgetting about replicators. ANY advantage the Empire has in technology (and I dispute most of those) would be nullified after a single battle.

 

- Ord'os

[Maaruin]

Aren't you -- and everybody else -- forgetting about replicators. ANY advantage the Empire has in technology (and I dispute most of those) would be nullified after a single battle.

 

- Ord'os

 

Sorry, no. Ships have to be build at ship yards. And that takes time. And probably resources. And people, people can't be replicated. This is not about technical advantage, this is about the huge number of ships the Empire can send. Even if Starfleet gets Hyperdrive, even if they can predict where the Empire will strike next, they will be overwhelmed on the long run.

[GarfieldJL]

Actually the only advantage the Empire has is numbers... Hyperdrives are more of a disadvantage than an advantage, because Star Wars sensors let's face it are a complete joke.

 

Even if we say that Star Trek vessels can slag any Wars vessel with ease, with full shields intact, without a scratch of damage (Yeah, not possible, but whatever) the Star Trek universe simply cannot compete.

 

Lets assume that Star Wars vessels are the equivalent of TOS ships, the numbers say otherwise, but Trekkies won't budge on being the best regardless of what tech manuals say.

 

Walsh, I'm flat out saying that the numbers you are giving, the assumptions you are using, etc. are a bunch of balonie. It doesn't matter what the numbers say when the numbers are generated using completely false assumptions.

 

There is still Hyperdrive.

 

So what? There are several flaws in this, in fact the Empire would get absolutely no advantage from Hyperdrives. Once you enter hyperspace, you are flying completely blind.

 

Hyperdrive alone makes it impossible for the Federation to win.

 

The Empire does not possess star charts nor do they have navigational maps of the Milky Way galaxy, considering the fact that ships using hyperdrives are completely blind, Star Wars sensors are a complete joke compared to Star Trek sensors. Considering there are no astrogation charts in Imperial Possession of Federation Space, the speed advantage from Hyperdrives is not only completely negated, but makes using Hyperdrives the equivalent of Russian Roulette with half of the chambers of the firearm loaded, and that's just to make a jump without getting yourself killed.

 

We know, for example, that the Star Wars galaxy is 2x the size of our real galaxy, which is the same galaxy that Trek takes place in.

 

Ships in Star Wars use established hyperspace routes, they have to calculate safe jumps from one place to another. Good luck trying to do that without any navigational references, no star charts, etc.

 

A ship can traverse, in Wars, from one end of the Galaxy to the other in about 6 weeks.

A Trek Ship can traverse, in Trek, from one end of the Galaxy tot he other in about 150 years.

 

So... Here is what happens...

 

The Imperials set up Star Bases somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant. The fastest the feds can get there is 75 years. Meaning Trek can't attack high command or the ship building facilities.

 

 

How are you coming up with the notion that it would take 75 years?!?! In the Star Trek Universe, Earth is in the Alpha Quadrant, as is Vulcan, and many other core Federation planets... I'm pretty sure the Federation would notice and have ships there in under a week.

 

The Delta Quadrant is the home territory of the Borg, Gamma Quadrant is controlled by the Dominion, some of Federation space I think is in the Beta Quadrant, and either Klingon or the Romulan Empire is in the Beta Quadrant. Sorry but I think a major power would notice the Imperial ships long before they had a clue where the nearest Federation Planet was let alone Earth...

 

Wars has huge numbers, dwarfing the Federation.

 

That's the only thing Star Wars has going for it...

 

Here is the first strike:

 

You mean here is your scenario that ignores some rather important key facts which completely undermines your scenario.

 

Wars sets loose 18,002 Star Destroyers... Assume... I dunno... 2 Super Star Destroyers, 6,000 Imperial Star Destroyers, 12,000 Victory class Star Destroyers, and lets assume around another 20,000 cruisers and other Imperial ships.

 

So we are talking about 38,002 capital ships, each filled with a full compliment.

 

Looks like a proverbial traffic jam, where Imperial ships are in danger of shooting each other, and considering the fact that TIE Fighters are totally worthless due to lack of shields and the fact that shuttlecraft (particularly type IX's and type XI's are armed with minature photon torpedos and actually have shields, one side would have fighter craft and capital ships, the other side would just have capital ships.

 

These ships hit Earth.

 

Earth has no way to know they are coming before they get there, they might detect something, but they don't have anything there to stop that kind of an attack. 38,002 ships pop out of Hyperspace. In a matter of seconds after that the Federation would attempt to talk to the Empire, this is the standard Federation MO. The Imperials respond by opening fire.

 

The Earth is destroyed, there might even be heavy losses on the Imperial side, but the Federation just lost Earth and Earth's shipyards. No ships can possibly respond in time. Once Federation ships arrive all they find is a scorched Earth and fields of debris. Starfleet is in shambles and aside from some recovered video footage nobody knows where these ships came from or where they went.

 

The Federation is suddenly in trouble. The loss of Earth as well as their shipyards as well as tons of defending ships means the Federation is vulnerable. This would cause the Federation to fracture at the foundations, as every other episode deals with some faction or another within the Federation having a problem with the Federation and with the massive loss the Federation just suffered they will suddenly be facing internal strife with no ability to hold it together.

 

The Imperials then simply appear, picking Federation targets at random, using no pattern, but always with the same MO. Every few weeks a huge fleet drops out of warp and slags a planet, a space station, or whatever. They are always gone before the Federation ships can get there. They strike from an unknown location and fade away just as fast.

 

Within a year the Federation falls.

 

 

Flaws in your argument:

1. The Empire has no star charts of the Milky Way galaxy, no idea as to what would be safe hyperspace routes, etc. Trying to find Earth would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack the size of a football field.

2. During the Dominion war for instance the Federation had one of their fleets stationed near Earth.

3. Earth isn't exactly the outermost planet in our solar system, Hyperdrives are knocked out of service every time they hit a mass shadow, a ship with Warp Drive can go to warp while within a gravity well, heck they can even go to warp in a planet's atmosphere... Earth would have plenty of warning (assuming the Empire could even find Earth, heck they are rather likely to assume Mars is our homeworld, which has plenty of defenses I might add because of Utopia Planetia).

4. The idea that the Federation wouldn't notice the spatial anomoly depositing Imperial ships in their own backyard is rather silly.

a. Due to the fact your presumed staging area is the alpha quadrant got news for you, the Empire wouldn't be able to pull these large numbers because they wouldn't have time to do so.

b. The Federation already has a method of dealing with spatial anomolies, wormholes, etc. that allow hostile forces to invade. I think a couple hundred cloaked mines with built in replicators to build new mines kinda does the trick. You wouldn't even need that many ships to defend the location.

 

While SW ships have Hyperdrives and hyperdrives do have some advantages over warp drive, there is a pretty big flaw with hyperdrives that Warp drive doesn't have. A starship with warp drive doesn't need pre-existing star charts of an area to travel safely, a Federation starship can see where it is going while at warp, it can change course to avoid a hazard while at warp. A ship in Hyperspace is completely blind.

 

 

If said anomoly was 20 Light Years from Coruscant, I think it is rather likely a Federation ship would figure out where Coruscant was within 48 hours at most.

 

If said anomoly was 20 light years from Earth, you'd be seeing half of starfleet showing up in a few days, and probably half the Klingon Navy not long after that, and the Empire still wouldn't have a clue where Earth was.

Edited August 10, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[ProfessorWalsh]

Actually the only advantage the Empire has is numbers...

 

Yes I said Alpha, I should have said Delta.

 

As for the rest... You are a Star Trek fan. You are always going to make Trek come out on top no matter what. The numbers aren't balonie, Trek would lose. You are using your own personal preference to create your own desired outcome.

 

Believe that Trek is the best all you want. The numbers say otherwise and the numbers don't lie.

[DarkForster]

Also remember most of the federations fleet are not even true warships, more research an exploration with ability to fill warship role, The Federation with production of the Defiant class showed they can rapidly mass produce tiny extremely well armed , shieilded & armored warships with cloaking that would be small enough to give star wars targeting systems a stroke. Edited August 10, 2012 by DarkForster

[PaerisKiran]

Sorry, no. Ships have to be build at ship yards. And that takes time. And probably resources. And people, people can't be replicated. This is not about technical advantage, this is about the huge number of ships the Empire can send. Even if Starfleet gets Hyperdrive, even if they can predict where the Empire will strike next, they will be overwhelmed on the long run.

 

You do know Federation did get equivalent of hyperdrive when Voyager returned home- quantumslipstream transwarp drives. I just took few years to hammer out the bugs.

 

True... Voyager´s prototype drive failed after short time, and they did not have reasources to build another in years onboard the ship. And generaly Voyager was never built to travel at slipstream velocities (or to be blunt trough subspace) so it would reaquire at minimum a hull overhaul.

 

And well it did bring transphasic torpedo technology too... (And treaty of Algeron between Romulans and Federation which prohibited Federation from developing cloakingdevices and transphasic technology in general was nullified by the the treaty Romulan-Klingon-Federation alliance signed with Dominion after Founders surrendered)