Remove gear stats from PvP please.

[Ravashakk]

Anyways, instead of continuing to argue over things that aren't getting us anywhere, I would like to state this...

 

Gear progression has always felt like a rite of passage. You learn how to play your character well in the absence of gear. When you do get the gear, you have the skills to go with it that you wouldn't have had if everyone would have been on the same playing field from the start. You appreciate what you have a lot more because of the time you put into it.

 

Even from a business stand point this makes sense. People are less likely to drop something you have so much invested in to. This also adds more replay value, and is the reason I don't care for games like CoD or Halo for more than a day every once in awhile.

[Zunayson]

 

edit - If you think everything is "fair" in the olympics then you obviously are not watching the whole thing. You think Team USA basketball men or womens is "fair" and "balanced" when playing against other teams from other countries?

 

edit 2 - e-sports. That would be fps games, not mmo games with pvp in them. Go play CoD or Halo for that.

 

First edit: Yes, if the point is to be better, you cannot complain that there is an imbalance because 1 team is better. The point is to better, one team will win.

 

You cannot say that 1 team chooses to practice more and dedicates more time to the sport and call an imbalance

You can say, however, that due to some countries low income, that they are unable to play sports that require rather expensive supplies to play, such as football (Pads, goal posts), or Tennis (A net, clay, a racket). Low income countries (Such as many countries in Africa) are able to play soccer, for example. Every country, more or less, is able to practice soccer whenever. Whether or not they choose to do that is there decision. Africa (And the countries that make it up) have little access to ice, creating an imbalance. This is why America (And I think Japan?) Dominated baseball when it was in the Olympics. There was an imbalance. They took it out.

 

second point: No, FPS is e-sports, but e-sports is not necessarily FPS. I'm sure many people who dont have the reaction time needed to play FPS but like the genre of RPGs yet don't have the reaction time for GW2 would love to play a game like this on equal footing. With the new F2P option, this may go pretty well.

[Scritchy]

Anyways, instead of continuing to argue over things that aren't getting us anywhere, I would like to state this...

 

Gear progression has always felt like a rite of passage. You learn how to play your character well in the absence of gear. When you do get the gear, you have the skills to go with it that you wouldn't have had if everyone would have been on the same playing field from the start. You appreciate what you have a lot more because of the time you put into it.

 

Even from a business stand point this makes sense. People are less likely to drop something you have so much invested in to. This also adds more replay value, and is the reason I don't care for games like CoD or Halo for more than a day every once in awhile.

From a business standpoint, it is shooting itself in the foot. After a certain time, it prevents players from joining the game, because they would have no hope of catching up to compete. Look at WAR as an example, no matter what they change, it will never attract more people because those that are there have renown rank 80 or 100 (whatever the limit is now) gear and you will be farmed forever trying to get it to compete.

 

This game is bleeding subs like a sucking chest wound. If you want to attract new players, you don't handicap them in any way, it is just counterproductive.

[fungihoujo]

From a business standpoint, it is shooting itself in the foot. After a certain time, it prevents players from joining the game, because they would have no hope of catching up to compete. Look at WAR as an example, no matter what they change, it will never attract more people because those that are there have renown rank 80 or 100 (whatever the limit is now) gear and you will be farmed forever trying to get it to compete.

 

This game is bleeding subs like a sucking chest wound. If you want to attract new players, you don't handicap them in any way, it is just counterproductive.

 

This- people once put up with the gear grind because there was nothing else- but that's not the case anymore, and that model after WoW is continually failing in every new mmo, over and over and over. Even WoW is dropping over a million subs a year now.

 

There is NO incentive to play this game's pvp if you are new because of the huge barrier, and there is no incentive if you don't play 20+ hours a week because by the time you get the current gear a new set will be out. That kills the entirety of BW's casual playerbase, and it also prevents new players to replace bleeding subs.

 

There's just nothing smart about it.

[Ravashakk]

From a business standpoint, it is shooting itself in the foot. After a certain time, it prevents players from joining the game, because they would have no hope of catching up to compete. Look at WAR as an example, no matter what they change, it will never attract more people because those that are there have renown rank 80 or 100 (whatever the limit is now) gear and you will be farmed forever trying to get it to compete.

 

This game is bleeding subs like a sucking chest wound. If you want to attract new players, you don't handicap them in any way, it is just counterproductive.

 

They are doing the same thing wow does. Entry level gear is crafted in wow, but given to you in swtor. You then grind out last season's best gear while trying to obtain this season's best gear in parallel. It gives the ppl that have been playing an advantage for a bit, but allows newcomers that put time in to quickly catch up.

 

I agree with you that it should NEVER be a case where those with the best stay on top and make it impossible for ppl to join them. In this game, the difference is you might have a rough time if you are pugging against good teams with good gear, but you will still get gear at a decent rate. Shouldn't take you longer than an hour or 2 per piece of BM....and that's incredible compared to other games' gear grind.

[PowerReaper]

How dare you try to upgrade your characters stats and gear how dare you!

[Scritchy]

They are doing the same thing wow does. Entry level gear is crafted in wow, but given to you in swtor. You then grind out last season's best gear while trying to obtain this season's best gear in parallel. It gives the ppl that have been playing an advantage for a bit, but allows newcomers that put time in to quickly catch up.

 

I agree with you that it should NEVER be a case where those with the best stay on top and make it impossible for ppl to join them. In this game, the difference is you might have a rough time if you are pugging against good teams with good gear, but you will still get gear at a decent rate. Shouldn't take you longer than an hour or 2 per piece of BM....and that's incredible compared to other games' gear grind.

The problem will be as the game matures and more levels/gear is added increasing the length of the pain.

 

Also, the guy above me has a lot of skill, you can tell by the fact that he is a War Hero Sentinel.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Scritchy

[CRNphg]

As someone who played a competitive FPS for 11 years all this talk about skill in an MMO is starting to make me itchy.

 

Let me keep my awesomesauce gear and let me fight other players in awesomesauce gear or whoever dares defy us. Give the recruits and the casuals a myfirstwarzone with 1/10th of the payout and a big warning on normal warzone queue that there might be very strong opponents that could utterly destroy them.

[CRNphg]

The problem will be as the game matures and more levels/gear is added increasing the length of the pain.

 

Also, the guy above me has a lot of skill, you can tell by the fact that he is a War Hero Sentinel.

 

In come more brackets. Either you want to have the same fun as Endgame geared players or you just want the same gear.

[Scritchy]

In come more brackets. Either you want to have the same fun as Endgame geared players or you just want the same gear.

Segregating an already dwindling player base makes sense. Personally, I didn't find it fun 5 or 6-shotting recruits who didn't have a chance. The fact that you do says something.

[Pvtcarnage]

I like how you use the quote of a morally bankrupt insane man who is part of the sith, which are known for being considerably worse than Adolf Hitler's Nazis when it comes to slavery, extermination and racial prejudice. Definitely what I'd use to back up my opinions.

 

Does not change that fact that it is true.....

But it makes me think of people on welfare for generations and not ever trying to get off it.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Pvtcarnage

[CRNphg]

Segregating an already dwindling player base makes sense. Personally, I didn't find it fun 5 or 6-shotting recruits who didn't have a chance.

 

Yes it does. I'll no longer be teamed up with 'skilled players that lack gear' who don't know that it is more usefull to delay incoming opponents then to also start capping a node when arriving 2 seconds later on the start of civ war. People who don't have 'throw huttball' binded to a key. People that don't know how to call incs.

People that chase on voidstar and don't watch the doors. I can go on for a while here.

 

The fact that you do says something.

 

Please enlighten me. Where is this fact stated?

[Scritchy]

Yes it does. I'll no longer be teamed up with 'skilled players that lack gear' who don't know that it is more usefull to delay incoming opponents then to also start capping a node when arriving 2 seconds later on the start of civ war. People who don't have 'throw huttball' binded to a key. People that don't know how to call incs.

People that chase on voidstar and don't watch the doors. I can go on for a while here.

I still see that in 50 warzones occasionally. Even from people in War Hero. Gear doesn't cure stupid, and some people are afflicted badly. All it would do is slow queue pops down even more.

Please enlighten me. Where is this fact stated?

Which fact? The one that you like 5-6 shotting recruits who don't stand a chance?

Either you want to have the same fun as Endgame geared players

I can't think of anything else that you would think is fun as an endgame geared player - ranked warzones certainly don't pop enough to qualify.

[CRNphg]

I still see that in 50 warzones occasionally. Even from people in War Hero. Gear doesn't cure stupid, and some people are afflicted badly. All it would do is slow queue pops down even more.

 

Sure it happens to the occasional less gifted player in War Hero. But it is not a given like most fresh 50's.

Gear is acquired by playing a lot of 50's warzones in which you will be told to stop acting stupid by people like me.

I would not mind waiting a bit longer for better games. Not having any problems with queues atm.

 

Which fact? The one that you like 5-6 shotting recruits who don't stand a chance?

 

I don't know where you play but the number of geared players on my server seems to outweigh the number that are not. I have a lot of exciting matches versus stronger and weaker geared teams.

I would just like the teams to be balanced. So one team does not have 8WH players while the other has 4WH and 4Recruits.

[Scritchy]

I don't know where you play but the number of geared players on my server seems to outweigh the number that are not. I have a lot of exciting matches versus stronger and weaker geared teams.

I would just like the teams to be balanced. So one team does not have 8WH players while the other has 4WH and 4Recruits.

I'd rather it so if I'm defending or attacking a node with somebody and everybody on the other side that is on that node is in Recruit, we didn't destroy them without them standing a chance. To me, that isn't fun. I'd rather play a close match and lose than stomping somebody in lesser gear just because I have to be prepared for the WH that might make their way to my node or me to theirs.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Scritchy

[LightForse]

For the love of god..get rid of expertise and put in resolve..or just make expertise reduce damage/crit period. would even out all the burst dps out there .Why the hell does it increase damage anyways?

[CRNphg]

I'd rather it so if I'm defending or attacking a node with somebody and everybody on the other side that is on that node is in Recruit, we didn't destroy them without them standing a chance. To me, that isn't fun. I'd rather play a close match and lose than stomping somebody in lesser gear just because I have to be prepared for the WH that might make their way to my node or me to theirs.

 

That would just be dumb teamwork.

[Scritchy]

That would just be dumb teamwork.

And an artificial handicap that doesn't need to exist.

[NamikazeNaruto]

Before I did not think the gear gap was that much... However I recently transferred some of my gear over to the pub side. My imp had fully augmented min/maxed war hero gear. If I fought a merc dps 1v1, I would have about 90% or more hp left after the fight was over. If I fought a marauder, 9 times out of 10 I would win the duel. Now flip it over to my char on the pub side who has 5 pieces of regular non augmented war hero and the rest of the gear is recruit.... Me and another recruit gear assassin lost 2v1 to a full WH marauder. I also lost 1v1 to a full WH merc who had about 5% hp left when it was over...HUGE DIFFERENCE. 500 difference in willpower from my imp version and about 8% difference on my surge rating. about 300 less power as well. I guess this was a wake up call as to just how much gear comes into play in the PvP in this game.

[-Ransome-]

Yep, let it be skill vs skill. Can't wait for guild wars 2.

[ChickenWangs]

After looking at London Olympics games, there fair play dominate, I started to think why we cannot have fair play in SWTOR PvP.

 

SWTOR PvP is currently discrimination based on gear, gear give some players ridiculous handicap whilst others players has serious disadvantage. All players need the same stats in PvP, it should be no unfair advantage even for 1% more dmg or healing.

 

We need gear stats does not affect player vs player performance. No matter what gear you have damage and healing in player vs player combat should be calculated on static coefficients without taking gear stats. Gear stats can affect pve only, but as soon player involves into pvp combat in open world or warzones damage need to be calculated without taking gear into an account.

 

Another major improvement we need is improvement of bolster system. Any player entered warzone at level below 50 should automatically increase its level to 50 with all class abilities available. We need the same queue poll for all levels from level 10 to level 50 where all player of the same class no matter of level has ABSOLUTELY the same HP, damage and healing with no discrimination based on level and gear.

 

Actually BW has a choice move this game forward and make it as a standart for e-sports or loose all its PvP population to Guild Wars 2 and other games where people compete on fair basis.

 

Thought this was serious, then saw that part . Pvp is not discrimination it's skill. 6/10 because I believed you were being serious for most of the post

[Ravashakk]

Before I did not think the gear gap was that much... However I recently transferred some of my gear over to the pub side. My imp had fully augmented min/maxed war hero gear. If I fought a merc dps 1v1, I would have about 90% or more hp left after the fight was over. If I fought a marauder, 9 times out of 10 I would win the duel. Now flip it over to my char on the pub side who has 5 pieces of regular non augmented war hero and the rest of the gear is recruit.... Me and another recruit gear assassin lost 2v1 to a full WH marauder. I also lost 1v1 to a full WH merc who had about 5% hp left when it was over...HUGE DIFFERENCE. 500 difference in willpower from my imp version and about 8% difference on my surge rating. about 300 less power as well. I guess this was a wake up call as to just how much gear comes into play in the PvP in this game.

 

You are introducing variables you aren't addressing...like the quality of your opposition. Since your opponent didn't stay the same between your 2 characters, how are we suppose to know you didn't face the world's best marauder or merc?

 

Also you are complaining about having a HUGE gear difference between you and this merc and he BARELY beat you.

 

No one here is saying "gear doesn't matter". We all know it does. I just think people put too much emphasis on how much it affects the game. This is war, you go in giving yourself every advantage. USA is such a huge military power based on their technology....a gear advantage. If your aim sucks, then it doesn't matter how great that gun is, the guy you're firing at with an old springfield will probably take you out.

[Scritchy]

This is war, you go in giving yourself every advantage. USA is such a huge military power based on their technology....a gear advantage. If your aim sucks, then it doesn't matter how great that gun is, the guy you're firing at with an old springfield will probably take you out.

You can't equate a game to real world. Real world is about dominance to prevent needless lives being lost, excessive money being spent, etc. A game is (supposed to be) about fun.

[SweetOldBob]

The more ... dedicated you are, the more time you spend to get your basic stats as optimal as possible. In sports, that manifests as basic training, physical and mental, hours and hours spent daily with blood, sweat and tears. In this game, that manifests as gear. Sometimes it is boring, sometimes humiliating, sometimes feels like it will never end. But those who have endured that hardship earns the right to use better gear.

Good point: gear in SWTOR does not correspond to cleats, shoulder pads, gloves, etc. in RL sports, but instead getting the gear corresponds to training.

 

I've noticed that doing the dailies again and again reminds me of working through repeated katas back when I took Tae Kwon Do, except that I don't get nearly as sweaty.

[Roiz]

Thought this was serious, then saw that part . Pvp is not discrimination it's skill. 6/10 because I believed you were being serious for most of the post

 

I think we have slight misunderstanding. The idea of what you selected in red is to bring all players of the same class at equal condition where the same ability of all players do the same damage. For example Rail shot of all PT in warzone will do the same damage no matter what gear and level PT have. Of course at the end of the match they have different total damage and healing done depending how well players play.