Why make force camo better than force cloak?

[Mournblood]

Where other classes have a knockback to try and get away, they have an automatic get out of jail free card every 45 sec.

 

You obviously didn't read my post a few posts above yours, or you're just ignoring it because it would be inconvenient to acknowledge it. Force Camo is NOT a "get of out jail free card." There are many ways it can be countered. I dare you to play the class at level 50 PvP against anyone who's competent and then come back here and say that.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Mournblood

[Coldin]

Pretty sure Hidden Strike doesn't require being out of combat to use. It simply requires being in stealth and behind the target.

 

And yes, I think it's ridiculous that Marauders get a better version of stealth than assassins and operatives. It's so incredibly easy to be knocked out stealth, which is something that a Marauder doesn't have to worry about when they use Force Camo.

 

Honestly, if they just made Operative and Shadow vanishes have the ability to not be knocked out of stealth for ~6 seconds, it would be much more balanced.

[dcgregorya]

I think what you mean to say, or at least should say, is that the cooldown on force cloak/vanish and the scoundrel/operative counterpart is too long. It should be one minute, not three minutes. Or 1:30 with the concealment/scrapper/infiltration/etc cooldown bringing it down to 1 minute.

 

As a dirty fighting scoundrel for instance, you cannot get out of combat for like 30+ seconds after you dot someone if you take the talent that prevents your dots from being cleansed. This is because dots keep you in combat. At the same time, the only balance to dirty fighting for upper hand is being able to open from stealth so that spawning pugnacity doesn't leave you without any significant DPS for another 6 seconds. So basically you're screwed and you have to get out of combat using vanish except vanish has a 3 minute cooldown. On scrapper its the same thing, shoot first is half your damage and to use it you need to be out of combat, with the cooldown reduction its still a 2 minute timer.

 

I don't play assassins but I'd imagine its very much the same. The cooldowns are too long to be useful and the classes are too fragile, vulnerable to roots/slows and melee dependent to stand and fight without being able to open from stealth. If I see a scrapper out of stealth, he has no chance against me because I'll slow him, kite him and wreck him and he can't do anything meaningful to stop me unless his vanish is off of cooldown.

Edited August 7, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Coldin]

You obviously didn't read my post a few posts above yours, or you're just ignoring it because it would be inconvenient to acknowledge it. Force Camo is NOT a "get of out jail free card." There are many ways it can be countered. I dare you to play the class at level 50 PvP against anyone who's competent and then come back here and say that.

 

Mind listing those counters?

 

Best I can think is getting some kind of root on them the second before they use it. (Not really a counter in my opinion, since you have to use it before).

 

It may not always be a get out of jail free card, but then neither is the Assassin and Operative's stealth. You just can't deny that because Marauder's camo is on a shorter cooldown and can't be broken by damage, it's significantly more useful.

[dcgregorya]

Mind listing those counters?

 

Best I can think is getting some kind of root on them the second before they use it. (Not really a counter in my opinion, since you have to use it before).

 

It may not always be a get out of jail free card, but then neither is the Assassin and Operative's stealth. You just can't deny that because Marauder's camo is on a shorter cooldown and can't be broken by damage, it's significantly more useful.

 

It's only 4-6 seconds. Look around for the marauder and pull him, leap to him, root him, stun him, bleed him, snare him or whatever else you want to do to prevent him from getting away. It should not be long enough to keep them alive (if you're paying attention), only long enough for them to get dropped as the primary target under focus fire.

[Paulman]

Another Mara/Sent OP thread. The Pyro PTs must be laying low lately.

 

You'd think players would have figured this out by now and moved on to more legitimate class issues. I swear I'm going to compile some video of me getting owned while using Force Camo and Undying Rage. Until then, the examples already provided should suffice. The ability in question (Force Camo) is essential to the AC as melee DPS, since Charge (leap) is often countered with knockbacks and we're very susceptible to snares/roots because we have no ability to break them. Force Camo won't break snares/roots unless you're spec'd Carnage, which most PvP Maras are not (they are either Rage or Annihilation). If we were ranged DPS, then we wouldn't need it. Typically, I'm using it as a gap closer to get to my target, which is usually a healer in the back lines. Sins can and do the exact same thing with their stealth. If I'm using Camo to escape, smarter players will AE mezz the moment they see me vanish, which stops me in my tracks, or they know I'm going for the health restore in the corner and beat me to it, or they simply focus a different target until I reappear, or they AE an area in the direction they saw me heading and pull me out of stealth. The ability itself is not an automatic "get of jail free card" as players who've never played a Mara/Sent would have anyone believe.

 

The advantage Sin stealth has over Camo is that it's indefinite. I can't count how many times teams underestimate how defended a node is because there are one or two Sins sitting there stealthed, which results in wasting time and resources and the opposite team getting further ahead on the score clock. I've also seen the opposite, where a team over-commits to attacking a node, leaves too few defenders at the one they own, and the one or two Sins that have been patiently waiting there stealthed pounce on the defender and take the node.

 

The comparison between the two abilities is apples and oranges, as someone has already pointed out. Yet there will always be players who instead of seeing the advantages their particular ability offers, they will only see what they don't get from a somewhat similar ability. If your issue is with the limitations of your own ability, address that specifically. But attempting to justify a nerf of another class ability based on your own related ability isn't sufficient justification for it, and undermines any argument you may make about issues with your own ability (or ours).

 

 

 

It's a 45 second CD. If you actually played the class, you'd know this.

 

So spoiled. Your argument is that no one should be able to counter you. The fact is mara/sent and warrior types in general have plenty of other tools to deal with roots and snares. In addition to roots and snares of there own.

[mtsr]

Force Cloak I keep waiting for the game developers to FIX it!

 

It is UNDEPENDABLE and crap.

 

Meanwhile maras and sents SKATE away 99% of the time.

 

Force cloak 50% of the time does not work!. :ANGRY FIST!

[Mournblood]

Mind listing those counters?

 

Best I can think is getting some kind of root on them the second before they use it. (Not really a counter in my opinion, since you have to use it before).

 

It may not always be a get out of jail free card, but then neither is the Assassin and Operative's stealth. You just can't deny that because Marauder's camo is on a shorter cooldown and can't be broken by damage, it's significantly more useful.

 

I gave several examples in my post. I'll relist them here, since you apparently missed them.

 

1. AE CC the moment you see them Camo.

2. AE snare the moment you see them Camo. They won't get far, unless they are Carnage spec'd.

3. If they were low on health when they used Camo, beat them to the nearest health restore because that's where they are going.

4. AE damage just ahead of the direction they were facing when they used Camo. Direct damage WILL pull them out of stealth, contrary to what you said.

5. Drop a stealth detection just ahead of the direction they were facing when they used Camo.

6. Focus a different target until they reappear, such as the nearest healer.

 

Obviously, your class may not have the ability to do all of these things, but you should be able to do at least 3 of them.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Mournblood

[Mournblood]

So spoiled. Your argument is that no one should be able to counter you.

 

How exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that my argument was that no one should be able to counter us, when I provided several examples of just how you can do that in my post?

 

Mind letting the rest of us know what color the sky is in your world? Maybe we could join you there.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Mournblood

[Coldin]

I gave several examples in my post. I'll relist them here, since you apparently missed them.

 

1. AE CC the moment you see them Camo.

2. AE snare the moment you see them Camo. They won't get far, unless they are Carnage spec'd.

3. If they were low on health when they used Camo, beat them to the nearest health restore because that's where they are going.

4. AE damage just ahead of the direction they were facing when they used Camo. Direct damage WILL pull them out of stealth, contrary to what you said.

5. Drop a stealth detection just ahead of the direction they were facing when they used Camo.

6. Focus a different target until they reappear, such as the nearest healer.

 

Obviously, your class may not have the ability to do all of these things, but you should be able to do at least 3 of them.

 

Okay. I'm a Scoundrel. Let's see how well that advice works?

 

1. AOE CC requires a target, so can't use that on a Marauder that can't be targeted.

2. AOE Snare. Scoundrels don't get one. The snare we do get requires a target.

3. They get a speed increase when traited into it. Chances are, I won't beat them to the health.

4. I've never seen a marauder broken out of stealth from damage. Even so, Scoundrel AOE either requires significant time to cast, or is limited range and cone-based.

5. Not a trooper, so don't get a stealth detect. Not sure if I've ever seen that work either.

6. Not really a counter, since I'm focusing now on a different target.

 

Any other advice?

[Mournblood]

Okay. I'm a Scoundrel. Let's see how well that advice works?

 

1. AOE CC requires a target, so can't use that on a Marauder that can't be targeted.

2. AOE Snare. Scoundrels don't get one. The snare we do get requires a target.

3. They get a speed increase when traited into it. Chances are, I won't beat them to the health.

4. I've never seen a marauder broken out of stealth from damage. Even so, Scoundrel AOE either requires significant time to cast, or is limited range and cone-based.

5. Not a trooper, so don't get a stealth detect. Not sure if I've ever seen that work either.

6. Not really a counter, since I'm focusing now on a different target.

 

Any other advice?

 

1. Yours may, others do not. I have an AOE CC (Intimidating Roar) that is centered on me. I can drop that the moment I see another Mara Camo, and I promise you it will catch him before he's out of range.

2. Juggs are who I was thinking of with this example.

3. Other classes do, such as a Sorc.

4. It can happen, since Force Camo was nerfed in 1.2 and reduced from 100% DR to 50% DR.

5. This was an example for Troopers/BHs stealth probes, as you noted.

6. If you're focusing on a nearby healer who might try to heal the Mara while he's using Camo, then yes, it is a counter.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Mournblood

[Coldin]

1. Yours may, others do not. I have an AOE CC (Intimidating Roar) that is centered on me. I can drop that the moment I see another Mara Camo, and I promise you it will catch him before he's out of range.

2. Juggs are who I was thinking of with this example.

3. Other classes do, such as a Sorc.

4. It can happen, since Force Camo was nerfed in 1.2 and reduced from 100% DR to 50% DR.

5. This was an example for Troopers/BHs stealth probes, as you noted.

6. If you're focusing on a nearby healer who might try to heal the Mara while he's using Camo, then yes, it is a counter.

 

2. Technically, that's just a slow.

4. I still have yet to see it happen. I have seen Marauders drop right back out of stealth after using it, but that's to attack me or someone else.

6. Eh, it's about as much of a counter as swapping to the healer that's healing a tank. It's not what I consider a counter, since it's just taking pressure off the Marauder. It's just changing tactics.

 

 

Camo is still better than force cloak too. Since all those tactics work well against assassins, plus you rob them of a 2-3 minute cooldown, instead of just a 45 second one.

[Jadescythe]

1. Yours may, others do not. I have an AOE CC (Intimidating Roar) that is centered on me. I can drop that the moment I see another Mara Camo, and I promise you it will catch him before he's out of range.

2. Juggs are who I was thinking of with this example.

3. Other classes do, such as a Sorc.

4. It can happen, since Force Camo was nerfed in 1.2 and reduced from 100% DR to 50% DR.

5. This was an example for Troopers/BHs stealth probes, as you noted.

6. If you're focusing on a nearby healer who might try to heal the Mara while he's using Camo, then yes, it is a counter.

 

1) that is the only AOE mezz that doesn't require a target that I'm aware of, glad maras are a good counter to maras

2) juggs are the only example I'm aware of

3) inquisitors have force speed, but I assume I used it already since I'm not dead

4) damage will take them out of stealth, you are right, so time to hope you pick the right 5 meter circle to drop it

5) see #4 but for BH's

6) If there is a nearby healer, why am I attacking the mara at all?

 

(I have not played all classes and am not claiming to be an expert on all classes, so if there is another class in 1 or 2 that had a similar ability, feel free to flame me)

 

BTW, what class fits at least 3 of these like you claimed earlier? I believe mara is the top at 3 (since 6 was a terrible point and does not count), they can do 1, 3(predation), and 4(smash, which is instant unlike most AOEs and I assume you are staying within 4 meters of your opponent since that is your range as well). Just sayin

[Coldin]

 

BTW, what class fits at least 3 of these like you claimed earlier?

 

Maybe he meant Marauders and Powertechs? You know, the only classes that currently matter?

[Astarica]

Force Camo doesn't get knocked out by damage. If it did it'd just be as useful as Force Cloak, which is to say none because there's almost always an AE or a dot or a missile already in flight somewhere. By the way, stealth never clears any attack that's already 'in flight', i.e. someone shoot a Tracer Missile at you, you can see that the missile doesn't do damage until the it gets to where you are. If you pop something like Force Speed you can actually delay the inevitable but it'll obviously always catch up to you at the end. Stealth cannot clear such attacks once they're already in the 'in flight' stage which is why most attempts to stealth ends up with a projectile of some sorts hitting you to knock you out of it instantly. Since Force Camo is not broken by damage, they still get hit but they remain in stealth which is the important part.

 

CCs do not reveal Force Camo though it'd stop them which is good enough, but like mentioned most AE CCs requires a target ot be used in the first place.

 

Force Camo comes with a 30% innate speed boost which is faster than the in combat speed (0%) so most likely the Marauder is faster than you when this is on. Even if you're both snared, they'll still be a little bit faster, which makes it easier for them to get to the health powerup before you do.

 

The only ability that will reveal Force Camo is a stealth scan but don't forget stealth scan uses a GCD and Force Camo does not so by the time you can drop a stealth scan, you'd usually have to guess where the Marauder is as he's no longer next to you.

[foxmob]

5. Not a trooper, so don't get a stealth detect. Not sure if I've ever seen that work either.

stealth detect always works if a mara/sent is in the aoe, but you have to guess right about where the mara/sent is in the first place.

[Paulman]

I gave several examples in my post. I'll relist them here, since you apparently missed them.

 

1. AE CC the moment you see them Camo.

2. AE snare the moment you see them Camo. They won't get far, unless they are Carnage spec'd.

3. If they were low on health when they used Camo, beat them to the nearest health restore because that's where they are going.

4. AE damage just ahead of the direction they were facing when they used Camo. Direct damage WILL pull them out of stealth, contrary to what you said.

5. Drop a stealth detection just ahead of the direction they were facing when they used Camo.

6. Focus a different target until they reappear, such as the nearest healer.

 

Obviously, your class may not have the ability to do all of these things, but you should be able to do at least 3 of them.

 

The ability in question (Force Camo) is essential to the AC as melee DPS, since Charge (leap) is often countered with knockbacks and we're very susceptible to snares/roots because we have no ability to break them

 

This is your justification for needing it. Like I said, you already have other ways of dealing with these. And your advice on dealing with camo is unlikely to work in many situations, assuming you even have the capability which many classes don't. You assume that no one should be able to counter you and if they do then you should have multiple ways around it. Which you actually do without camo anyways.

 

Tell me which classes break marauder roots?

[foxmob]

The ability in question (Force Camo) is essential to the AC as melee DPS, since Charge (leap) is often countered with knockbacks and we're very susceptible to snares/roots because we have no ability to break them

welcome to the game. mara/sent doesn't wanna leap to target. trooper/sage doesn't wanna knock him back until he does leap. there are plenty of other targets in the game that have no kb at all that a mara/sent will leap to indiscriminately. supposed to be rock, paper, scissors. I don't think it is...but that's the general idea. frankly, commando wins against nobody.

[Pvtcarnage]

it's to counter ranged knock back and stun, there you go...I'm sure u understand now.

[CBRGhostRider]

I'm leveling up an assassin at the moment, and I was shocked to find out some days back that force cloak popped me right out of combat in most cases (DoTs). I don't even have shroud yet, but even when I eventually get it, it's kinda crazy to blow it just because I want to cloak and speed away later.

 

If marauders need camo to close in, then my juggernaut could use it as well. Or, god forbid, my powertech, since he needs to be in range and has neither camo nor a leap... LOL! (And no, I don't use grapple to close gaps at the start, just like maras don;t usually leap to a class w/ knockback).

 

Anyway, back on topic... I believe force cloak should work at least for a few seconds (8 seconds?) if you have a DoT on you before it pops you out of stealth. If you do not have a DoT, it should continue to function correctly as it does right now. There is no reason why a stealth based class' cloak should be worse in design than a melee class, which doesn't really need it in the first place.

[FalcoLombardi]

That's the point. If you had Camo, you wouldn't have HS...

 

My point is as a stealth class, that pretty much revolves around that opener for good burst at least, we should have a better tool to use it more often

[Coldin]

it's to counter ranged knock back and stun, there you go...I'm sure u understand now.

 

So...Marauders get the ability to respond to counters with counters of their own. Unfortunately not all classes get counters to everything like marauders.

[Macabrae]

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I cant do something another class can, its OP.

 

Seriously people quit it... Just quit it. Its not a problem. If you cant figure how to counter something and you're only solution is to come to the forums and cry about it please go play the sims.

 

I dont even play my sent anymore, haven't for about 4 months. I dont have a single problem countering the ability OR counting to 4 then killing said sent/mara.

 

oh my he has god mode, he's op. No he's not op, you just cant figure out to save you're stun for about 35% health then rip the last 35% away from him while he's left useless.

 

oh my he has cloak and hes not a cloak class.. 1.2.3.4. dead... thats how long it takes. but but but he's full health when he comes out of stealth..... Stop lying a) the healer didnt fill him completly up in 4 seconds, secondly thats 4 seconds you could of used to focus the healer instead of standing there looking stupid crying about him being able to turn invisable.

 

I miss the 90's when people just played the game instead of becoming keyboard warriors on the forums arguing about why everything they didnt have was OP.

 

I feel ya.....everytime I see one of these garbage threads begging for nerfs, I ask myself are people really that bad they have to actually come to the forums and beg for nerfs? Then IO look at the pages of threads in all pvp games and say "Why yes, yes they are".

 

 

Marauders and PT's are fine. I kill them easily on my Assassin and my Operative slaughters them like a hot knife thru melted butter. People really need to learn how to counter classes better instead of QQing so much, but I guess it is easier to come onto the forums and beg for nerfs then it is to learn how to beat those classes.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Macabrae

[Coldin]

Marauders and PT's are fine. I kill them easily on my Assassin and my Operative slaughters them like a hot knife thru melted butter. People really need to learn how to counter classes better instead of QQing so much, but I guess it is easier to come onto the forums and beg for nerfs then it is to learn how to beat those classes.

 

These kind of posts do nothing to add to the discussion other than to basically say "I'm awesome, you're not. Learn to play".

 

Maybe there's nothing wrong with Marauders and Powertechs, and everyone just needs to play better. But you make no real argument for this to be the case. There are lots of threads and posts on these forums that actually hold info that points to an unbalance between classes.

[Tetsuos-despair]

Well the class shouldnt have a counter to everything imo i think it should be taken away. Marras have waay to many things to counter other classes.

 

No offense to you directly this is general and aimed at the QQs. I just don't understand the crazy hate for mara/sent and the stubborn insistence upon nerfing the class?

 

I've recently rolled a PT and a sniper and oddly enough from lvl 10 onward more often than not I have been able to get into one of the top three slots of most WZs with them just as I do with my marauder.

 

Sure mara/sents and assassins have killed me plenty of times while on both of these toons and I've somehow managed to kill tons of them, but at no point in time did I think that I should be able to facetank melee classes as a BH or IA, or feel that mara/sent had any great advantage over me that I could not counter with a bit of strategy.

 

I just do not see this OPness people cry about regarding ANY class, beyond things that have been clearly broken, I'm starting to realize that 99.9998% of all the QQ stems from L2P issues and people not being able to deal with being outplayed.

 

I'll soon be rolling an assassin, and I predict I'll probably do alright with that toon also, It really is the person behind the keyboard, people just need to learn their classes intimately, know their enemy classes just as well and think strategically, and also not expect to be immortal and unstoppable because no one is.

 

From what I gather most of the QQ comes from spazzes who can't think on their feet and get easily flustered in the chaos of battle, I think if the people QQ would just roll a mara/sent or any other class they think is OP to lvl 10 and get into a few WZs they may no longer feel the same way.

 

TL;DR: Instead of thinking the grass is greener on the other side, please go check it out first, worst thing that could happen is you learn a bit about your enemy and gain some real perspective.