Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Yeah, unfortunately EULA's and TOS' pretty much make you unable to sue anybody. Like i said no they dont. A Eula and TOS cannot contradict law/consumer rights, EVER. Every time it has and its been brought up, the TOS/EULA is thrown out. Even Andryah went over it, its debateable when there's no law on the matter, and even then there's a "within reason" limit. Local, State, and federal law ALL supercede a EULA, period. Edited August 5, 2012 by Zyrious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Like i said not hey dont. A Eula and TOS cannot contradict law/consumer rights, EVER. Every time it has and its been brought up, the TOS/EULA is thrown out. Even Andryah went over it, its debateable when there's no law on the matter, and even then there's a "within reason" limit. Local, State, and federal law ALL supercede a EULA, period. And like I said. Look at contract law, not consumer rights law, because TOS' and EULA's are contracts. Edited August 5, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) And like I said. Look at contract law, not consumer rights law, because TOS' and EULA's are contracts. A contract cannot ever contradict the law, it is why contracts go to court all the time. You literally can't "sign your life away". Atleast in the US. Edited August 5, 2012 by Zyrious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I also stated a EULA is not LAW, you are not bound to every single word in it and you ALWAYS have your consumer rights as per local law. An EULA is a legal document, which stipulates the legal rights of the company providing the service, and binds the user to legally be bound by those rights. In that context, every single word of it is binding once the user accepts it. UNLESS it tries to supercede current law (and a well written EULA would not do this, that's what lawyers get paid to prevent in corporate law). You are just trying to create appearance of ambiguity and conflict with law where none has been established. Show me any fragment of the current EULA of this game that is in conflict with current law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I never once said it had been done yet, but i said there is merit both in being angry about it, and in the law itself. The problem is the army of lawyers you have to go against, and i was also clarifying what a bait and switch was which this could most definitely be seen as. I also stated a EULA is not LAW, you are not bound to every single word in it and you ALWAYS have your consumer rights as per local law. Which is FACT. Maybe you should re-read my originall post because apparently reading comprehension is not your forte'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smndi2tCsiI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smndi2tCsiI Are you done trolling or do you have something useful to add to this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) A contract cannot ever contradict the law, it is why contracts go to court all the time. You literally can't "sign your life away". Atleast in the US. Sure, but good luck. I'm sure the EULA has clauses dealing with this situation specifically (or it will once the patch updates the game) and no court would call it unreasonable for a company to reserve the right to make changes to their product or billing practices as long as you're informed about it. I'm sure your cable company has done that at least once every couple of years. All I'm saying is that consumer protection laws can't help you here. Have fun. Edited August 5, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Sure, but good luck. I'm sure the EULA has clauses dealing with this situation specifically (or it will once the patch updates the game) and no court would call it unreasonable for a company to reserve the right to make changes to their product or billing practices as long as you're informed about it. I'm sure your cable company has done that at least once every couple of years. All I'm saying is that consumer protection laws can't help you here. Have fun. I've had cases where in a year contract a cable company tries to up the price and a single phone call scares them away from doing it. People with 6month "contracts" so to speak with a sudden change in EULA/payment models without offer a refund could be an issue. But again, i dont think anyone will care enough to sue. When SOE released the Obi wan expansion and then did the huge gameplay switch to the NGE, SOE was about to get sued and they immediatly offered full refunds no questions asked. Edited August 5, 2012 by Zyrious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Someone once tried to sue Square Enix (Final Fantasy MMO) over online fees and such. The judge threw it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alephen Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 i win button: http://mashable.com/2012/07/12/silly-tech-lawsuits/ 4. Star Wars Galaxies Fans vs. Sony In 2011, several Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) fans filed a class action lawsuit against Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) in hopes of keeping the Star Wars-themed MMORPG running after Lucas Arts and SOE announced that they were shutting the game down on Dec. 15 of that year. The decision was made because of a decline in subscriptions, as well as due to the upcoming launch of Star Wars: The Old Republic. There was never any legal substance to the claim, though, since all players signed the end-user agreement, which is subject to change at any time, including a shutdown. Sony played the good guy by offering to ease the burden and refund prorated subscription fees as well as letting fans play for free until the end of last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) I've had cases where in a year contract a cable company tries to up the price and a single phone call scares them away from doing it. People with 6month "contracts" so to speak with a sudden change in EULA/payment models without offer a refund could be an issue. But again, i dont think anyone will care enough to sue. When SOE released the Obi wan expansion and then did the huge gameplay switch to the NGE, SOE was about to get sued and they immediatly offered full refunds no questions asked. Cable company certainly shouldn't increase your price while you're on contract, but when you're month to month it's common practice to up the price by a couple of bucks for inflation or stupidity or whatever reason they like. Difference here is that Bio isn't increasing the price. They're not even changing the standard price plan. They're just adding a new one, like a cell company would do. Edited August 5, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Cable company certainly shouldn't increase your price while you're on contract, but when you're not, it's common practice to up the price by a couple of bucks for inflation or stupidity or whatever reason they like. Difference here is that Bio isn't increasing the price. They're not even changing the standard price plan. They're just adding a new one, like a cell company would do. Well what the debate is here is, There will be things in the cash shop not even subscribers get thats why you get stipend, and if there is too much in the cash shop, not enough stipen, and you are in the middle of a 6 month subscription, i think you'd have a right to at the very least, demand a refund and early cancellation of the 6 month plan, and if denied that, could go to court over it because you need to pay *more* for full access to all content and that changed in the middle of a plan you signed up for before F2P was announced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Are you done trolling or do you have something useful to add to this discussion? I've submitted a third of the evidence against your claim in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Well what the debate is here is, There will be things in the cash shop not even subscribers get thats why you get stipend, and if there is too much in the cash shop, not enough stipen, and you are in the middle of a 6 month subscription, i think you'd have a right to at the very least, demand a refund and early cancellation of the 6 month plan, and if denied that, could go to court over it because you need to pay *more* for full access to all content and that changed in the middle of a plan you signed up for before F2P was announced. There's stuff in the WoW cash shop nobody can acquire the game proper either. They are seperate products. Even now in SWTOR, not everyone has access to everything in the game without a security key, or a collector's edition. The argument is moot. Paid subs will be getting a monthly allowance of Cartel points to get stuff from the cash shop anyways. Edited August 5, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 i win button: http://mashable.com/2012/07/12/silly-tech-lawsuits/ 4. Star Wars Galaxies Fans vs. Sony In 2011, several Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) fans filed a class action lawsuit against Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) in hopes of keeping the Star Wars-themed MMORPG running after Lucas Arts and SOE announced that they were shutting the game down on Dec. 15 of that year. The decision was made because of a decline in subscriptions, as well as due to the upcoming launch of Star Wars: The Old Republic. There was never any legal substance to the claim, though, since all players signed the end-user agreement, which is subject to change at any time, including a shutdown. Sony played the good guy by offering to ease the burden and refund prorated subscription fees as well as letting fans play for free until the end of last year. What does this have to do with anything? There's nothing in the law that says a service must exist forever and they technically arent taking away the game, just the service. As long as they offered refunds for all year/6month plans and ended subscriptions, which they did. However, there are laws on changing payment models/access to content in the middle of a subscription plan/contract. Your post has no bearing on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 There's stuff in the WoW cash shop nobody can acquire the game proper either. They are seperate products. As far as i'm aware, the cash shop in wow isnt too extensive however, since wow doesnt have a F2P setup, correct me if i'm wrong. That's what i'm saying with TOR, if the cash shop gets too extensive and there's too much stuff on ther and too little stipend, i think you have grouds there ESPECIALLY if in the middle of a 6 month plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I've submitted a third of the evidence against your claim in this thread. Ok dear trollmaster, they haven't "Always" thrown out the EULA. But that isnt my argument anyway you nitpicked a word and attacked it instead of taking the whole argument in context like the other posters have. Stop wasting space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) This isn't a price drop, it's a complete overhaul of the game. Yes, we got the product we paid for. Come November, it will not be the same product. It wasn't the same product a single patch into it. Ok dear trollmaster, they haven't "Always" thrown out the EULA. But that isnt my argument anyway you nitpicked a word and attacked it instead of taking the whole argument in context like the other posters have. Stop wasting space. If you're so right, why are you the only one with this opinion, with literally everyone else in this thread proving your statements incorrect post after post, with you changing your arguments in response every time? Edited August 5, 2012 by RazielHex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) As far as i'm aware, the cash shop in wow isnt too extensive however, since wow doesnt have a F2P setup, correct me if i'm wrong. That's what i'm saying with TOR, if the cash shop gets too extensive and there's too much stuff on ther and too little stipend, i think you have grouds there ESPECIALLY if in the middle of a 6 month plan. I keep editting while you're responding, or vice versa... As I said in my edit, subs get a monthly allowance of cartel points to spend in the cash shop as part of their paid plan. You will be able to buy stuff without additional charge unless you want every possible thing there is (assuming a vast selection). It will depend on the cost of the items in the shop Furthermore, there are already things in this game not everyone has access to. The security key vendor and the collector's edition perks for example. Both examples of paid perks. Edited August 5, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 It wasn't the same product a single patch into it. Content updates and changes are expected, a complete overhaul of the payment setup and addition of a cash shop is different especially if you're in the middle of a payment plan, and should at the very least be entitled to a full refund and immediate closure of account if requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Content updates and changes are expected, a complete overhaul of the payment setup and addition of a cash shop is different especially if you're in the middle of a payment plan, and should at the very least be entitled to a full refund and immediate closure of account if requested. For all you know, they might do that for you. You have to ask first before even attempting to file a law suit. Edited August 5, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 It wasn't the same product a single patch into it. If you're so right, why are you the only one with this opinion, with literally everyone else in this thread proving your statements incorrect post after post, with you changing your arguments in response every time? I have not changed my argument once, since the VERY BEGINNING i was stating what a bait and switch is, and why one could consider this such, and then went on arguing about the devs in response to the OP, and talked about how a EULA cannot just do whatever it wants and that any and all law regarding consumer rights supercedes the EULA regardless of how vague and all encompassing companies like to make it. If a company puts a notice on a vacuum that says "May explode and kill you when turned on" it doesnt mean your family cant sue and win if you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alephen Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 What does this have to do with anything? There's nothing in the law that says a service must exist forever and they technically arent taking away the game, just the service. As long as they offered refunds for all year/6month plans and ended subscriptions, which they did. However, there are laws on changing payment models/access to content in the middle of a subscription plan/contract. Your post has no bearing on anything. you are constantly misrepresenting what is being done in this game. while intentional and lying or unintentional and ignorant, i do not know. they are not reducing content for subscribers. no where have i seen any suggestion, besides from you, that they are. so stop making stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Content updates and changes are expected, a complete overhaul of the payment setup and addition of a cash shop is different especially if you're in the middle of a payment plan, and should at the very least be entitled to a full refund and immediate closure of account if requested. You're not entitled to anything on this planet besides air to breathe, and even that isn't promised to be healthy for you, and it comes with you agreeing not to ever go underwater for any reason whatsoever or you forfeit this entitlement. Edited August 5, 2012 by RazielHex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyrious Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 For all you know, they might do that for you. You have to ask first before even attempting to file a law suit. But that's what i've been saying from the beginning, that it's not an open and shut case like everyone has kept saying it has been. Everyone has been acting like, for FOUR PAGES, that there is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM for any legal action,a nd i've been trying to say a EULA is not an unfaultering god of law and depending on how things go they can be sued and IMO they are pulling a bait and switch. I said that in my first post, i've said it since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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