31 Point Kinetic Outdamages Hybrids

[Astarica]

Snare is limited by CDs. Let's consider all the melee-based classes:

 

Shadow - Not counting mirror match against 31/0/10 the best snare they have is 6s 50% 12s CD if not talented (very few players have it talented). Does practically no damage and obviously doesn't last long.

 

Jugg - Their AE snare is arguably the best in the game.

 

Marauder - The 50% snare on burn is on 15s CD. The spammable snare costs 2 rage while doing basically no damage and has no synergy whatsoever with rest of their rotation, and still requires melee range. While in theory the burn snare can be used every 6 seconds, once you start denying him his rage generation he will no longer have enough rage to trigger the attacks that refresh the burn, thus reducing his ability to snare you as well.

 

Operative - They get 50% snare 12s on 12s CD for 10m.

 

PT - Don't know enough about this class.

 

There isn't this magic that allows you to cast a 12s CD spell twice by just being 'good'. You get rid of a Shadow or an Operative's snare and they can't put a second one on you for another 12 seconds. You get rid of the Marauder burn and they'll have to use a very bad attack that completely messes up their rotation, and that's assuming they even have melee range to you at this point (Force Speed easily creates greater than 4m of separation on demand).

 

You're basically theorycrafting about stuff that is downright impossible. Two of the melee classes (Shadow/Operative) simply cannot snare you again if you remove the first one because of CD limitations. A Marauder is always walking a very tight line on rage and having to give up an extra 2 rage instead of either a move that refreshes a burn or a move that generates rage profoundly impacts their ability to do damage, and unlike Shadow/Op both of their snares are melee range so they might not even be able to reapply it. Juggs have probably the best snare in the game, but it's AE so it works both ways. While you can get crippled by a Jugg's AE snare it is equally possible your opponent gets crippled by your team's AE snare and at least you've a way to remove it some of the time.

[Xinika]

I really don't get where we're getting this world where a 31/0/10 has a hard time kiting any melee. As long as you have you can dispel snares/roots on Force Speed (and obviously all the specs here can do that), all you need to do is use Force Speed to remove the snare after the Marauder leap. You'll have some kind of snare on them, and you'll be at 100% speed and they'll be at 70% to 50% speed. At this point, there is absolutely nothing the melee can do via fancy footworks to beat you..

 

This is so true. Doesn't matter how good they are, you CAN kite them long enough for the advantage to be in your favour. Paired with the amount of stuns and even a knockback, the mara is not going to catch you for very long.

[Astarica]

This is so true. Doesn't matter how good they are, you CAN kite them long enough for the advantage to be in your favour. Paired with the amount of stuns and even a knockback, the mara is not going to catch you for very long.

 

I know sometimes it feels llike it's you against the world, like you snared someone and then see it dispelled instantly, or you snared someone and kited him and then get leapt by another guy you didn't see. That's why despite having a significant theoractical advantage of course Shadows do not guaranteed a win against any melee class. But you can't play as if assuming the world is against you because you'd just come to the conclusion that you're already doomed.

 

By design, only one class (Jugg) and one other spec (31/0/10 Shadow) can basically keep you snared forever for almost no cost. If you're not fighting one of those two types, you should have the speed advantage and you need to always press that advantage. It won't always be enough and it might not always even work but the advantage is on your side, and being good (or not) isn't going to make your CDs reset faster. I play in 31/0/10 and I always know I'm supposed to be faster than the guy I'm fighting, and that doesn't mean I always win but I can never stop and doubt 'what if this guy has someone cleansing my snares' because if I do that I've already lost.

[JasonNH]

The downsides of full KC that we talk about in here mostly don't apply in a PvE environment, and it offers the -5% damage debuff (and if you're the tank in the group, then your group is normally relying on you to supply it on your own) and more self healing. And you don't really need instant lift or a 30m cap breaker in FiB.

 

So, for PvE you're just looking at full Kinetic, no contest. You could generally make the hybrid spec work if you're not pushing hard on difficult content, but it's still clearly sub-optimal.

 

Right, when looking at the numbers it didn't seem like too much of a sacrifice and I was trying to decide whether it was good enough not to bother with respecing constantly. That 5% damage debuff would probably add up to make a non-trivial impact. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

[Boarg]

Snare is limited by CDs. Let's consider all the melee-based classes:

 

Shadow - Not counting mirror match against 31/0/10 the best snare they have is 6s 50% 12s CD if not talented (very few players have it talented). Does practically no damage and obviously doesn't last long.

 

Jugg - Their AE snare is arguably the best in the game.

 

Marauder - The 50% snare on burn is on 15s CD. The spammable snare costs 2 rage while doing basically no damage and has no synergy whatsoever with rest of their rotation, and still requires melee range. While in theory the burn snare can be used every 6 seconds, once you start denying him his rage generation he will no longer have enough rage to trigger the attacks that refresh the burn, thus reducing his ability to snare you as well.

 

Operative - They get 50% snare 12s on 12s CD for 10m.

 

PT - Don't know enough about this class.

 

There isn't this magic that allows you to cast a 12s CD spell twice by just being 'good'. You get rid of a Shadow or an Operative's snare and they can't put a second one on you for another 12 seconds. You get rid of the Marauder burn and they'll have to use a very bad attack that completely messes up their rotation, and that's assuming they even have melee range to you at this point (Force Speed easily creates greater than 4m of separation on demand).

 

You're basically theorycrafting about stuff that is downright impossible. Two of the melee classes (Shadow/Operative) simply cannot snare you again if you remove the first one because of CD limitations. A Marauder is always walking a very tight line on rage and having to give up an extra 2 rage instead of either a move that refreshes a burn or a move that generates rage profoundly impacts their ability to do damage, and unlike Shadow/Op both of their snares are melee range so they might not even be able to reapply it. Juggs have probably the best snare in the game, but it's AE so it works both ways. While you can get crippled by a Jugg's AE snare it is equally possible your opponent gets crippled by your team's AE snare and at least you've a way to remove it some of the time.

 

With the Shadow - yeah, not many have Force Slow talented. I do, if I play dps role. 12s snare on 6s CD, 15m range. Plus all the other tools Shadow has - unkitable by KC. Many have tried; all have failed. If they try to fight me toe-to-toe they might win just from superior survivability, but if they try to run they're toast. Balance isn't easy to kite either if you don't let them use Force Speed to clear both root and snare at the same time...and the spec does more mid-range damage than KC anyway.

 

Marauder - you neglect mentioning the many ways they have to gap close and then reapply the spammable one. It doesn't matter that the dedicated snare doesn't do much damage - you need it to stay on target and a good player will use it because it's the difference between destroying a kiter and getting kited. They will generally get on you initially and snare without using Leap and then when you use Speed to clear the snare they Leap back and snare again. If you clear again with Resilience or something, they can use Camo offensively to get back on target and snare you again. And their leap is a shorter CD than Speed. Carnage/Combat is popular in rateds now, and they add roots to the mix. If you're successfully kiting marauders as KC for extended periods of time, they are baddies. Their toolset allows them plenty of uptime on KC if they use it right.

 

Operative - Their thing is huge opener and front loading. They'll kill you in no time if you don't pop Resilience. When you do pop it -> restealth -> reopen. In a WZ setting a really good one can kill you lots of times if they put their minds to it. They also have more >10m damage than you.

 

Pyro PT - Yes, these are melee; they just don't have to be if they don't want to for much of their fight. They are kitable to a pretty high portion of total time, but they will vastly out-damage KC from outside of melee. They can generally get their melee range for the brief periods they want it with pull and essentially a close to spammable 10m 50% snare on a high damage attack. You just have to out-race these guys on damage while using things like Resilience and stuns to buy precious extra GCD's.

 

Jugg - 10m spammable snare and gap closers, etc... KC can't kite these if they don't want to be kited.

 

 

So basically, several of the melee are actually a disadvantage to kite - as in you're better off staying close to melee because you win the damage race faster. The dynamic of fighting Concealment isn't really about sustained fighting. There's only 2 or 3 left that you would even want to kite, which are the two Knight classes for sure and maybe Infiltration. Infiltration you can take out for sure as wasted effort. The two Knight AC's can't be kited for extended periods of time if the players are at least as good as the KC player because they have superior snares and enough tools to get on target and reapply.

 

I can kinda get where you guys get this impression that KC kites so well... 90%+ of the players in this game are an easy kite regardless of class/spec. Frankly, most players in this game severely undervalue their snares. That doesn't mean you should be able to kite them, though. And there's also a lot of variables in WZ setting. If I play against experts on their class like folks in my guild, suddenly an easy kite changes into figuring out plan B. Realistically, if you were the one playing these Knight classes posting over in their forums you'd be saying, "lol those tanksin can't kite me" or something to that effect.

 

If you're just node defending and trying to survive until help arrives...kite away. It definitely makes you live longer even just trying and it's a team game.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Boarg

[DarthOvertone]

A 31 point kinetic can do all of this (apart from SS) replacing FiB with the higher DPS (taking cooldowns into consideration) Slow Time.

 

Except Slow Time doesn't exactly replace Force In Balance. FiB is a straight up DPS monster; AOE, Internal Damage, 30m Range. Slow Time pales in comparison.

 

My reasons for liking and using Slow Time are more related to its debuffs than it's actual damage. Damage is secondary for that skill.

 

 

All I know is this conversation is making it really really really hard to decide between 31/0/10 and 23/1/17.

 

It's really something you need to test for yourself. The playstyle is quite different for each even though the specs resemble each other in almost every way. I used to roll 23/1/17 almost exclusively up until 1.1. Then I switched to 31/0/10 and have never looked back. Test both specs. Go with what feels the most comfortable to you. No argument in the world will convince you of anything if the playstyle doesn't feel right.

[captindoom]

I find when using KC i do less damage however i take down opponents a lot quicker and have a higher kill rate. To me this is far more important than doing high damage and having a slower kill rate. Fighting shad Hyb i find them quick and easy to take down.

 

for example 491K damage as a KC with 71 kills in voidstar , i prefer the concerntrated damage of KC over the area damage of hyb. also i find KC is far better for 1v1 1v2 and 1v3.

[Bahamzero]

Never tried a hybrid spec simply because i love 31 KC. its awesome to defend notes and with the slow time - projct into TK i have enough damage to finish most 1v1's fast even in my survivor set. Edited August 7, 2012 by Bahamzero

[Xinika]

I also i find KC is far better for 1v1 1v2 and 1v3.

Not anymore.

[Astarica]

Survivality really doesn't go up that much for putting more points in the tank tree. Slow Time helps if you've something like a turret control to LoS while you snare the entire team but if you're talking about open ground there's no signficant differences in survivality.

 

31/0/10 really isn't about putting up crazy numbers or crazy defense but that powered TK absolutely destroys enemy CDs and lowers their DPS indirectly when they waste time trying to deal with it (assuming your enemy is unable to know the exact stack you used when you fired your TK and must treat everyone of them like it's 3 stacks, which is a reasonable assumption). For example you fire off a 2 stack TK on a Marauder, who reads it perfectly and avoids it perfectly with a Force Camo. This costs you 3500 tooltip damage but that's a very small price to pay to get rid of Force Camo, one of the most devastating powerful CDs in the game. There are certainly many ways you can use a Force Camo that gets you far more than 3500 tooltip damage avoided. Realistically you probably give up only 2000 tooltip damage (nobody's going to be able read it completely perfectly every time) and this puts your team ahead by being way ahead in the CD management game.

[captindoom]

Not anymore.

 

For me it is... however each person must choose what they feel is best for them...

[Xinika]

For me it is... however each person must choose what they feel is best for them...

 

That's like saying Infil is fine because I play it better. My point is not to have a "main" spec, but rather use whatever spec is needed for the call. Be adaptable.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Xinika

[Mutley-Gin]

You might have mastered The Class, some of us have not had as much exp with the squisher specs...I wish i could respec in a 1.30secs and PWN....maybe by december...lol and alot of the time...no healers to run to

till I learn this new spec and it`s potential I have no business jumping around trying new specs...

Just wished there where more Perfectly geared heals on my server to play with

Full KC is great!!! but for me to kill healers and win 2 on 1`s to take nodes Hybrid tankadin is just more useful...

 

Should I be respecing for hutball on the fly? switching out focus for sheild and tank peices?

is that what you do? run different specs for different games?

people who want to get better at the game want to know

[InariOkami]

I hope I'm not necro-ing here, but I really need to say something...

Survivality really doesn't go up that much for putting more points in the tank tree. Slow Time helps if you've something like a turret control to LoS while you snare the entire team but if you're talking about open ground there's no signficant differences in survivality.

 

31/0/10 really isn't about putting up crazy numbers or crazy defense but that powered TK absolutely destroys enemy CDs and lowers their DPS indirectly when they waste time trying to deal with it (assuming your enemy is unable to know the exact stack you used when you fired your TK and must treat everyone of them like it's 3 stacks, which is a reasonable assumption). For example you fire off a 2 stack TK on a Marauder, who reads it perfectly and avoids it perfectly with a Force Camo. This costs you 3500 tooltip damage but that's a very small price to pay to get rid of Force Camo, one of the most devastating powerful CDs in the game. There are certainly many ways you can use a Force Camo that gets you far more than 3500 tooltip damage avoided. Realistically you probably give up only 2000 tooltip damage (nobody's going to be able read it completely perfectly every time) and this puts your team ahead by being way ahead in the CD management game.

 

Bear in mind, everything I say is about ranked. I couldn't care less about regular frankly...

 

Okay so it seems a lot of your argument is based around "indirect dps loss" by interuppting your TKT. I'll explain it this way. I think it's been established that 31/0/10 IS a TKT spec. The entire rotation is based on building stacks. TKT is your hard hitter. Slow time's damage is relatively low, project without particle acceleration is also relatively low. I'll use your argument here of "indirect DPS loss". You spend 3 GCDs of low DPS attacks building up for your TKT. Meanwhile, they use those 3 GCDs however they want. All they have to do is interuppt your TKT. You also mentioned that you don't have to use 3 HS TKT. Sure, but that means using it on a 2 HS or god forbid 1 HS stack, both of which any class can use their off-GCD interuppt on (correct me if I'm wrong). You also mentioned that "nobody is going to be watching your HS counter". Actually, anytime I'm targeting a KC, I am constantly, constantly watching their HS. One big thing about shadows is that we have no casting moves. An interuppt really has no use on a shadow, unless they're casting crushing darkness, which in that case they should instantly uninstall. But my first instinct upon any class casting is to check what spell and if it can be interuppted. If I see you casting non 3HS TKT, I guarantee you I will interuppt it within 1-2 ticks and **** up your rotation. If I see it's a 3 HS, I'll just move out of range/LoS/CC you out of it. It's really simple, and even simpler when I know you have 3 HS prior to you casting TKT. The key to becoming a good player in PvP is mastering how to counter ACs. If people aren't watching your HS stacks when they have you targeted, they're not doin' it right.

 

And to your point about kiting...I have a few points on that too. First of all, a good marauder in MOST circumstances will not open with leap, especially on a melee class. I know I don't on my sent. Second, I don't see why a marauder is on you in the first place when they should be on a healer. Your slows are moot, because cauterize/leg slash apply an equal slow. They'll save their leap for your speed, and then proceed to wail on you. And they always have the smarter option of switching targets, unless they're on dedicated anti-peel duty which is pretty rare nowadays.

Edited August 13, 2012 by InariOkami

[jmsutton]

You only need one stack to make it non-interuptible I believe.

[parbs]

You only require the 1 stack for it to be uninterruptable and immune to pushback btw. So you're not going to get the chance unless it's a BAD kinetic player, or it's a balance / infil shadow using TKT (i will sometimes with force potency up as balance spec)

[Ceasaigh]

Damage in warzones is not indicative of how well a class is in a given WZ.

 

Anyone can put up huge numbers in a Voidstar stalemate on the first or second door. Same with a huttball match where the team just runs around and kills and doesn't try and score.

 

Success in WZ is about objectives and damage. Being able to kill the other team to cap a node or rest an area node like NC. Huttball takes mobility and lots of protection and taunts not so much big damage.

 

 

While big damage will pwn weak under geared teams with bad or no healers. Big DPS won't get it done against a team of similar gear and comp.

[InariOkami]

Damage in warzones is not indicative of how well a class is in a given WZ.

 

Anyone can put up huge numbers in a Voidstar stalemate on the first or second door. Same with a huttball match where the team just runs around and kills and doesn't try and score.

 

Success in WZ is about objectives and damage. Being able to kill the other team to cap a node or rest an area node like NC. Huttball takes mobility and lots of protection and taunts not so much big damage.

 

 

While big damage will pwn weak under geared teams with bad or no healers. Big DPS won't get it done against a team of similar gear and comp.

 

Except big DPS is how you take objectives. Voidstar, Civil War, to a certain degree Novare. All of those require you to sweep the other team quickly. If you don't have the damage to kill them, you won't take anything.