Zantul Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The Sith are not inherently evil yet their philosophy can corrupt easily. The Sith are different from the Jedi in that they seek to gain Dark Side power by taking advantage of all emotions especially ones that could be considered negative. IE: they use their rage to give them strength and fighting ability, they use their passion to empower their drive to succeed, and use fear to increase their desire to destroy the enemy. Doing this allows the Sith to have access to more powerful abilities than the Jedi have. However using emotions like these cloud judgement just like how in real life we would say or do things we normally wouldn't when were angry, thus usually leading to corruption and evil. However it doesn't have to be that way. A Light Side Sith would be a strong willed force user who used their emotions to to give them great power yet at the same time exercised restraint and calm along with negative emotions, and used their power to help people. + 1 great post. If you need a guild message me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 your descriptions of light-side sith are great, they helped me a lot comprehending how I could play a light side sith character myself. one thing i don't understand though is the greater goal of the Empire...why would a light-sided sith agree with the aim to enslave the galaxy? (if that's the greater goal of the empire..) Simple they are not enslaving. They are taking what is theirs. Rebels are just that rebels that are in the way of progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 From a completely objective point of view you make a valid point. However, when it comes to these sorts of things subjectivity tends to lead the way. The Empire may be a fascist regime but its also the "homeland" of Sith characters regardless of their individual moral compass. Patriotism (or tribalism) is a powerful force in human nature. Take your own country of origin of example. You probably see many things within your native culture/government/religious traditions that you don't approve of, or think need changing. You might even see somethings as outright wrong. However, odds are you don't think your nation or people are evil and need to be stopped. Its much more likely you love your nation and its people and any flaws you perceive simply need to be "reformed", re-evaluated, or evolved. This would apply to ethical Sith as well. They love the Empire of their birth, but want to help lead it do better. + 1 great post. If you need a guild message me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entropus Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 From a completely objective point of view you make a valid point. However, when it comes to these sorts of things subjectivity tends to lead the way. The Empire may be a fascist regime but its also the "homeland" of Sith characters regardless of their individual moral compass. Patriotism (or tribalism) is a powerful force in human nature. Take your own country of origin of example. You probably see many things within your native culture/government/religious traditions that you don't approve of, or think need changing. You might even see somethings as outright wrong. However, odds are you don't think your nation or people are evil and need to be stopped. Its much more likely you love your nation and its people and any flaws you perceive simply need to be "reformed", re-evaluated, or evolved. This would apply to ethical Sith as well. They love the Empire of their birth, but want to help lead it do better. Thanks for this thought-provoking impulse...i didn't account for that fact. I think i might be enjoying a light sith now even more...even if I don't know if I have enough back-knowledge to play on a rp-server Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun_Slinger Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The Sith are not inherently evil yet their philosophy can corrupt easily. The Sith are different from the Jedi in that they seek to gain Dark Side power by taking advantage of all emotions especially ones that could be considered negative. IE: they use their rage to give them strength and fighting ability, they use their passion to empower their drive to succeed, and use fear to increase their desire to destroy the enemy. Doing this allows the Sith to have access to more powerful abilities than the Jedi have. However using emotions like these cloud judgement just like how in real life we would say or do things we normally wouldn't when were angry, thus usually leading to corruption and evil. However it doesn't have to be that way. A Light Side Sith would be a strong willed force user who used their emotions to to give them great power yet at the same time exercised restraint and calm along with negative emotions, and used their power to help people. Sorry, but Sith are inherently Dark Side. Kinda the whole point is that following emotion instead of tranquility and reason IS the dark side, it always, inevitably, leads to downfall. Always. Period. Sith ARE Dark Side. So, while I understand from a game mechanic perspective the choice of light or dark, if a Sith went light, they wouldn't be Sith, they would be Former Sith. Which is why I think there should be a 'Betrayal' quest (as in EQ2) once you get to a certain level of Light Side as Sith or Dark Side as Jedi. Actually it woul dbe more like a breaking away from the Order or the Dark Council thing. Become independent. You would still work for the empire, but not for the Order or for the Dark Lords respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XargonWan Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sorry, but Sith are inherently Dark Side. Kinda the whole point is that following emotion instead of tranquility and reason IS the dark side, it always, inevitably, leads to downfall. Always. Period. Sith ARE Dark Side. So, while I understand from a game mechanic perspective the choice of light or dark, if a Sith went light, they wouldn't be Sith, they would be Former Sith. Which is why I think there should be a 'Betrayal' quest (as in EQ2) once you get to a certain level of Light Side as Sith or Dark Side as Jedi. Actually it woul dbe more like a breaking away from the Order or the Dark Council thing. Become independent. You would still work for the empire, but not for the Order or for the Dark Lords respectively.Good solution but I think it's hardly applicable to the game without spending a lot of resources in programming and voice acting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun_Slinger Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Good solution but I think it's hardly applicable to the game without spending a lot of resources in programming and voice acting... This is true, but a guy can dream, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XargonWan Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 This is true, but a guy can dream, eh?Of course, keep you chin up eh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jancarius Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The Sith are not inherently evil yet their philosophy can corrupt easily. The Sith are different from the Jedi in that they seek to gain Dark Side power by taking advantage of all emotions especially ones that could be considered negative. IE: they use their rage to give them strength and fighting ability, they use their passion to empower their drive to succeed, and use fear to increase their desire to destroy the enemy. Doing this allows the Sith to have access to more powerful abilities than the Jedi have. However using emotions like these cloud judgement just like how in real life we would say or do things we normally wouldn't when were angry, thus usually leading to corruption and evil. However it doesn't have to be that way. A Light Side Sith would be a strong willed force user who used their emotions to to give them great power yet at the same time exercised restraint and calm along with negative emotions, and used their power to help people. This in particular is exactly what made Revan so powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowclaimer Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sorry, but Sith are inherently Dark Side. Kinda the whole point is that following emotion instead of tranquility and reason IS the dark side, it always, inevitably, leads to downfall. Always. Period. Sith ARE Dark Side. So, while I understand from a game mechanic perspective the choice of light or dark, if a Sith went light, they wouldn't be Sith, they would be Former Sith. Which is why I think there should be a 'Betrayal' quest (as in EQ2) once you get to a certain level of Light Side as Sith or Dark Side as Jedi. Actually it woul dbe more like a breaking away from the Order or the Dark Council thing. Become independent. You would still work for the empire, but not for the Order or for the Dark Lords respectively. Sith =/= Dark Side Look at it this way, the "dark side" of the force is the usage of letting your emotions influence your force powers. This "stronger" side of the force is more easily accessible if you channel more potent emotions (anger, fear, etc.). The reason the Jedi preach against the dark side of the force is that it easily corrupts one and overwhelms them with their own emotions. Soon you are driven entirely by your emotions and become a power hungry egomaniac living in constant anger/fear. It is possible to be a "good" person and use the dark side of the force, the issue is you'd have to maintain your composure or channel emotions that won't overwhelm and consume you. The thing is it is such a thin line between completely consumed by it and maintaining it, and once you cross over you're basically stuck, that the Jedi preach against letting emotion cloud your judgement whatsoever, and just letting your sheer force of will power your force powers (IE: the Light Side). A "Good Sith" can exist, they can be merciful, respectful, and honorable, and channel the proper emotions into their dark side powers, BUT eventually they will be consumed by their emotions and become no different than their dark side comrades. It is only a matter of time really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jancarius Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sorry, but Sith are inherently Dark Side. Kinda the whole point is that following emotion instead of tranquility and reason IS the dark side, it always, inevitably, leads to downfall. Always. Period. Sith ARE Dark Side. So, while I understand from a game mechanic perspective the choice of light or dark, if a Sith went light, they wouldn't be Sith, they would be Former Sith. Which is why I think there should be a 'Betrayal' quest (as in EQ2) once you get to a certain level of Light Side as Sith or Dark Side as Jedi. Actually it woul dbe more like a breaking away from the Order or the Dark Council thing. Become independent. You would still work for the empire, but not for the Order or for the Dark Lords respectively. This is actually true/false based on whether you believe George Lucas, or EVERY OTHER WRITER for Star Wars. Lucas believes heavily in absolutes, thus the hilariously ironic statement from Obi Wan "Only Sith deal in absolutes" Every other writer has taken more of a stance that the Jedi's distance from emotion is actually part of the reason why they are so frequently ineffectual. At the same time, the Sith's reliance on emotion often clouds their judgement and leads to 'for the evulz' behavior that you see a lot of the Sith doing. Revan is probably the best example of how a Light side Sith behaves. Though the Revan novel is fairly poorly written, even the Sith who eventually becomes the Emperor's Wrath see's vast improvements in his power by mixing light side techniques with his Sith ways. I feel a betrayal storyline might be interesting, but too difficult to implement, but make it a purely optional thing ("Abandon the Empire and join the Jedi order" or "Reform the Empire from within") and that would essentially be a pretty massive story branch to write for all the Jedi classes (and that's assuming you don't allow the non-Force users to do it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun_Slinger Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sith =/= Dark Side Look at it this way, the "dark side" of the force is the usage of letting your emotions influence your force powers. This "stronger" side of the force is more easily accessible if you channel more potent emotions (anger, fear, etc.). The reason the Jedi preach against the dark side of the force is that it easily corrupts one and overwhelms them with their own emotions. Soon you are driven entirely by your emotions and become a power hungry egomaniac living in constant anger/fear. It is possible to be a "good" person and use the dark side of the force, the issue is you'd have to maintain your composure or channel emotions that won't overwhelm and consume you. The thing is it is such a thin line between completely consumed by it and maintaining it, and once you cross over you're basically stuck, that the Jedi preach against letting emotion cloud your judgement whatsoever, and just letting your sheer force of will power your force powers (IE: the Light Side). A "Good Sith" can exist, they can be merciful, respectful, and honorable, and channel the proper emotions into their dark side powers, BUT eventually they will be consumed by their emotions and become no different than their dark side comrades. It is only a matter of time really. Okay, I think maybe the issue is that you are equating 'Dark Side' with 'Evil.' You say the Sith aren't necessarilly Dark Side. I say they are absolutely Dark Side, but that the Dark Side is not necessarilly 'Evil.' It is simply a different means of accomplishing an end. The problem with it is that it can, as you say, and almost without exception does, corrupt a person so that now their ends are evil, in addition to their means being 'Dark Side force usage.' The point I am making is that the Dark Side of the force is all about Anger, Fear, Aggression. (see, e.g. Yoda) and the Sith FORCE users (not the simliarly dubbed empire, which includes non force users), teach these exact same things, Sith teachings are Dark Side teachings, they are synonymous. To use the light side, to embrance tranquility and reject emotions like that, is to not be Sith. Sith is defined by its teachings, and its teachings are Dark Side. This is actually true/false based on whether you believe George Lucas, or EVERY OTHER WRITER for Star Wars. Lucas believes heavily in absolutes, thus the hilariously ironic statement from Obi Wan "Only Sith deal in absolutes" Every other writer has taken more of a stance that the Jedi's distance from emotion is actually part of the reason why they are so frequently ineffectual. At the same time, the Sith's reliance on emotion often clouds their judgement and leads to 'for the evulz' behavior that you see a lot of the Sith doing. Revan is probably the best example of how a Light side Sith behaves. Though the Revan novel is fairly poorly written, even the Sith who eventually becomes the Emperor's Wrath see's vast improvements in his power by mixing light side techniques with his Sith ways. I feel a betrayal storyline might be interesting, but too difficult to implement, but make it a purely optional thing ("Abandon the Empire and join the Jedi order" or "Reform the Empire from within") and that would essentially be a pretty massive story branch to write for all the Jedi classes (and that's assuming you don't allow the non-Force users to do it). Hah! You love/hate the exact same Obi quite I love/hate...but for some reason I thought it was Mace Windu who says it. Yeah, it is almost miraculously ironic. I have watched all the movies, and read most of the big EU books, including the stackpole parts of X-wing series, Thrawn trilogy, thrawn duology, jedi academy trilogy, New Jedi Order, Fate of the Jedi, Legacy of the Force, and even *gulp* some of the young jedi series. THere are also afew singletons in there, like darksaber, and some tales from the XXXXXX. I have seen the lessening of absolutes in the New Jedi Order series, the problem is now they are sort of retconning that, Luke himself, in dealing with a Sith girl, Vestara, is basically like, you were raised sith, you were therefore raised to use the Dark Side, because that is they way of Sith teachings. Again, I think it should be made clear, to me Dark Side =/= Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydranova Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 hm...while we're on this, for some of the class stories there ought to be a quest where, for example, you have this scenario: Congratulations! Through personal kindheartedness, charisma, and good old gumption, you managed to get elected to the position of emporer! Which you made electable (somehow)! People everywhere thank you for your kind-heartedness, your austerity, your charity, and generally speaking, you would make the Pope feel proud. BAM! Offworld slavery! Sacrificing children to your citizen's unborn children! Public food coliseums for the rich and wealthy to watch everyone else fight it out for soup! Turns out, all those good things you did? Not sincere. All your LS points switch to DS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmarshal Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sorry, but Sith are inherently Dark Side. Kinda the whole point is that following emotion instead of tranquility and reason IS the dark side, it always, inevitably, leads to downfall. Always. Period. Sith ARE Dark Side. So, while I understand from a game mechanic perspective the choice of light or dark, if a Sith went light, they wouldn't be Sith, they would be Former Sith. Which is why I think there should be a 'Betrayal' quest (as in EQ2) once you get to a certain level of Light Side as Sith or Dark Side as Jedi. Actually it woul dbe more like a breaking away from the Order or the Dark Council thing. Become independent. You would still work for the empire, but not for the Order or for the Dark Lords respectively. The Sith are inherently Dark Side, I never said their not. The Dark Side is a force philosophy that involves feeding on emotions to become more powerful, exactly what Sith do. What I said was that Sith are not inherently evil, the Dark Side usually corrupts but doesn't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drethon Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 My light side Sith does good actions but isn't truly lightside. He believes himself to the the ultimate Sith, he cannot be defeated. As a result he prefers not to kill and to be merciful as those he leaves alive with either recognize his greatness or choose to attack him again. If he is attacked again it is simply an opportunity to grow even more powerful. He believes he has nothing to fear and fuels the dark side through pure passion to dominate others. I'm sure in the real world he wouldn't survive long but its an interesting persona to explore within the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sorry.... this is BS... Lightside Sith = Lore killer... They only made that way so they would have more things to explorer.... it's 1000% impossible for a sith to be lightside. IF anyone had read any of the Old Republic books, specially the Bane Trilogy would understand. You are trained trou pain, suffering, agony. You either embrace the sith philosofy or you will perish.... This 2 sentence from siths better explain "I am not a man of words. But I respect the power of words, for that is what transformed me. The words of the Sith Code. Others had heard them, contemplated them, and so on. But I understood them, and they changed me. For what was I before I heard those words? Nothing." ―Darth Bane, Dark Lord of the Sith "Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you." ―Darth Plagueis there is just NO WAY a lightside sith would survive. Specially... Dark Side emanate an aura.... There is only way to deny that aura, and that is trou Sith Sorcery. So if you don't have it... sorry, you die... And futhermore.... the Dark Side powers are ONLY acessible trou the emotions... in other words... someone who isn't angry, hatred, and so on, is unable to cast a force lightning... so, it is just impossible to be lightside and use darkside powers... This is best described when Bane did not embrace the dark side, and therefor he was unable to use the powers and was almost killed... Another perfect example is when Exar Kun was denied of his lightside powers, becouse he had so much anger in him... but at the same time, not enough to be strong enough to save him self.... He had to fully embrace the darkside in order to survive... and thats a path that you cannot turn back... to sum up... Lightside Sith just dosen't exit... I am pretty much a SW geek I played everything game I read every single book about the old republic I read all the old republic comics I read all the clone wars book And even a few post empire books (I don't like that period very much). There is just NO WAY a Lightside Sith would exist... this is a TERRIBLE mistake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun_Slinger Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The Sith are inherently Dark Side, I never said their not. The Dark Side is a force philosophy that involves feeding on emotions to become more powerful, exactly what Sith do. What I said was that Sith are not inherently evil, the Dark Side usually corrupts but doesn't have to. Oh, well then I misunderstood, I apologize, and we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun_Slinger Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I am pretty much a SW geek I played everything game I read every single book about the old republic I read all the old republic comics I read all the clone wars book And even a few post empire books (I don't like that period very much). There is just NO WAY a Lightside Sith would exist... this is a TERRIBLE mistake... Oh....god. You mean you read all the books based on or stemming from eps I-III, but none of the books (that have been around longer) stemming from eps IV-VI? Ugh. I don't entirely disagree with your point...or what I understand your point to be...but...just....ugh. You are NOT a SW geek. Sorry . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The Sith are not inherently evil yet their philosophy can corrupt easily. The Sith are different from the Jedi in that they seek to gain Dark Side power by taking advantage of all emotions especially ones that could be considered negative. IE: they use their rage to give them strength and fighting ability, they use their passion to empower their drive to succeed, and use fear to increase their desire to destroy the enemy. Doing this allows the Sith to have access to more powerful abilities than the Jedi have. However using emotions like these cloud judgement just like how in real life we would say or do things we normally wouldn't when were angry, thus usually leading to corruption and evil. However it doesn't have to be that way. A Light Side Sith would be a strong willed force user who used their emotions to to give them great power yet at the same time exercised restraint and calm along with negative emotions, and used their power to help people. I am sorry, but you are mistaken... They are not "evil"... they just belive that the stronger should lead, who is not strong enough should die... Been sith is a Religion, not a race, not an Empire. Show me 1 single sith who is not evil, or at least completly twisted. You are born fighting, seen your masters been slayed in front of you... Either you swear alligiance to the Dark Lord of the Sith, or you die... In the words of the great Marka Ragnos, One to embody the power, the other to crave it. That is the sith philosofy... they are not "evil"... they just think ir you are not strong enough, you should die. And NO, there is NO excuse. Onde again, show me 1 single sith who is an execption Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 This in particular is exactly what made Revan so powerful. No. What made Revan so powerful is exactly what made Exar Kun so powerful, Naga Sadow so powerful, Vader so powerful. They are just attuned to the force, and understand it. Revan was NEVER both Light and dark... He was Lightside... as Kreia said he was the very heart of the force. He realized there was a need for a villain, therefor he embraced the darkside, and the Revan he once was died. Coming back to the lightside was a fortune, not something he planned... You can't be both Light or Dark.... he was both, in diferent times... Never the 2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sith =/= Dark Side Look at it this way, the "dark side" of the force is the usage of letting your emotions influence your force powers. This "stronger" side of the force is more easily accessible if you channel more potent emotions (anger, fear, etc.). The reason the Jedi preach against the dark side of the force is that it easily corrupts one and overwhelms them with their own emotions. Soon you are driven entirely by your emotions and become a power hungry egomaniac living in constant anger/fear. It is possible to be a "good" person and use the dark side of the force, the issue is you'd have to maintain your composure or channel emotions that won't overwhelm and consume you. The thing is it is such a thin line between completely consumed by it and maintaining it, and once you cross over you're basically stuck, that the Jedi preach against letting emotion cloud your judgement whatsoever, and just letting your sheer force of will power your force powers (IE: the Light Side). A "Good Sith" can exist, they can be merciful, respectful, and honorable, and channel the proper emotions into their dark side powers, BUT eventually they will be consumed by their emotions and become no different than their dark side comrades. It is only a matter of time really. No... it is not... Unless you fully embrace those emotions, the force will fail you... Merciful, respectiful, honorabel, are not emotions... Unless you are always on the edge, the force will fail you... As Bane and Exar Kun already proved that.... You can't be both "in peace" and "on the edge" at the same time... And you can't channel light side powers been on the edge, the same you can't channel dark side powers been in peace... Sorry, it dosen't work like that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) Oh....god. You mean you read all the books based on or stemming from eps I-III, but none of the books (that have been around longer) stemming from eps IV-VI? Ugh. I don't entirely disagree with your point...or what I understand your point to be...but...just....ugh. You are NOT a SW geek. Sorry . No man, you didn't get it... I did read a few of them... just not all as I did with the old republic I Did read the Trwan Triology, which is amazing The jedi academy trilogy (which i don't like) And a few of the New Jedi Era, thats when I gave up on em... I read like 15 books of the post empire era... and around 30 + all the comics from before the empire era. The 1994+(Old republic) Comics, I read em all. I do agree that Darth Bane trilogy is realy recent, but still gives you an awsome insight in the dark side philosofy... so does the Exar Kun / Ulic Quel story... Edited December 20, 2011 by drollzito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drethon Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 No. What made Revan so powerful is exactly what made Exar Kun so powerful, Naga Sadow so powerful, Vader so powerful. They are just attuned to the force, and understand it. Revan was NEVER both Light and dark... He was Lightside... as Kreia said he was the very heart of the force. He realized there was a need for a villain, therefor he embraced the darkside, and the Revan he once was died. Coming back to the lightside was a fortune, not something he planned... You can't be both Light or Dark.... he was both, in diferent times... Never the 2... The Revan novel completely disagrees with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Still waiting for it to arrive... Taking Amazon ages to send ;/ I REALLY hope they did not ruin the Revan story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drollzito Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The Revan novel completely disagrees with you. I am still waiting for it... Taking Amazon ages to send me... I hope they didn't ruin the story... but still... is quite possible, since it was writen by one of the Bioware game developers (no sure if you know that)... They might have done it to "change things" for the swtor context... So I would not really count on that source... but it is written, so I get your point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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