Ranged, melee and defense

[UGLYMRJ]

Never thought about this until now, but I see a trend and it makes sense to me. Maybe I'm not looking at the big picture but I think I see it just fine.

 

Now people complain about certain classes being soft, squishy and not having much defensive ability. What never really clicked until today was that the biggest complaints are the following.

 

1. Mercs and sorcs are too soft.

2. Marauders and Tanksins are too tough. (Less tanksin complaints now obviously but they're still tough)

 

Now after these there are complaints about PT's defense but it's not nearly as bad as 30m classes like sniper, merc and sorcs. What I'm getting at is, it seems as if the further from the fight you are.... or capable of being, the softer you are for the most part.

 

Anyways, just wondering what people's thought are on it. It makes sense to me and I would assume it was intentional. To me it wouldn't make much sense to have a ranged class being tougher than a melee class. It's kind of the same as in many FPS games, a light armor class will be faster than a heavy armor class. Give a little to get a little. I also didn't include a few classes since I don't see much talk about them or have I played them so I would love the feedback.

 

As long as that feedback isn't "NERF MARAUDERS"... it always hurts my feeling. I don't wanna be nerfed!!!

Edited July 27, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Helistin]

Your post makes good sense for the most part. The classes that have to get into thick of things should have better defences, as they do.

Trouble is since 1.2 there haven't been ranged classes since there's no way to keep horde's of marauders in distance.

[ArchangelLBC]

As always the solution is to nerf operatives.

 

 

The funny thing is whenever I talk about being squishy on a merc I get told that I have heavy armor, which is pretty laughable as a form of defense.

 

Now yes ranged casters (which despite the aesthetic is what Commandos are) are supposed to be squishy, but they're also supposed to have tools to keep enemies at range. Sorcs/Sages can kite with slow and other tools. Snipers/Gunslingers can't be leapt to in that shield and have roots and great CC as well. They kind of have to fire and displace like crazy SoBs sometimes, but they have the tools to keep enemies at range for a period of time, and get their casts off.

 

The main problems for Mercs/Commandos is they have the ranged casting along with all the disadvantages that go with it (long casts leading to self rooting and immobility), but none of the tools to keep people at range.

 

Assault gets 1 knockback and an RNG snare best activated by spamming Hammer Shot and praying it goes off.

Gunnery gets 2 knockbacks, the second of which is a very light knockback with no attached slow or root, and a snare on a 15s cooldown attached to an ability that's a self root so not actually useful for kiting at all.

 

I'm not saying that it wasn't intended to make the ranged casters squishier than the melee. I'm saying that if that's the case they didn't actually do a great job of actually balancing it in all cases (also this balance usually includes high burst damage in exchange for those long cast times which sorcs/sages seem to feel cheated on atm).

 

Only ones I don't see really QQing about how tough Maras/Sents are are the snipers/gunslingers because surprise surprise, they were given the tools to do the job.

[UGLYMRJ]

As always the solution is to nerf operatives.

 

 

The funny thing is whenever I talk about being squishy on a merc I get told that I have heavy armor, which is pretty laughable as a form of defense.

 

Now yes ranged casters (which despite the aesthetic is what Commandos are) are supposed to be squishy, but they're also supposed to have tools to keep enemies at range. Sorcs/Sages can kite with slow and other tools. Snipers/Gunslingers can't be leapt to in that shield and have roots and great CC as well. They kind of have to fire and displace like crazy SoBs sometimes, but they have the tools to keep enemies at range for a period of time, and get their casts off.

 

The main problems for Mercs/Commandos is they have the ranged casting along with all the disadvantages that go with it (long casts leading to self rooting and immobility), but none of the tools to keep people at range.

 

Assault gets 1 knockback and an RNG snare best activated by spamming Hammer Shot and praying it goes off.

Gunnery gets 2 knockbacks, the second of which is a very light knockback with no attached slow or root, and a snare on a 15s cooldown attached to an ability that's a self root so not actually useful for kiting at all.

 

I'm not saying that it wasn't intended to make the ranged casters squishier than the melee. I'm saying that if that's the case they didn't actually do a great job of actually balancing it in all cases (also this balance usually includes high burst damage in exchange for those long cast times which sorcs/sages seem to feel cheated on atm).

 

Only ones I don't see really QQing about how tough Maras/Sents are are the snipers/gunslingers because surprise surprise, they were given the tools to do the job.

 

Glad you saw this and commented. It was actually your comment in that other thread that triggered this thought. From what you've said and I know I've heard the same thing before, I agree. I really don't agree with the masses about PT and marauders getting nerfed. I think that's a step in the wrong direction. However I completely agree that some trees and classes can use a little buff. From everything you've said about the merc, a defensive buff definitely sounds like it's much needed. Not so much a "make me take more hits buff" but a utility buff. Something to keep people off of you.

 

Someone once mentioned adding a disengage type of ability that would essentially be a jet boost backwards. I like the idea. Maybe even with a snare for anyone in X amount of feet. Small change but would make the world of difference. This idea stood out to me because it was very well thought out and actually makes a lot of sense for a ranged class to have something like this IMO. I'm sure there's another way to accomplish something similar by tweaking the trees but I'm not familiar enough with them to really comment on that.

Edited July 27, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[ArchangelLBC]

Glad you saw this and commented. It was actually your comment in that other thread that triggered this thought. From what you've said and I know I've heard the same thing before, I agree. I really don't agree with the masses about PT and marauders getting nerfed. I think that's a step in the wrong direction. However I completely agree that some trees and classes can use a little buff. From everything you've said about the merc, a defensive buff definitely sounds like it's much needed. Not so much a "make me take more hits buff" but a utility buff. Something to keep people off of you.

 

Someone once mentioned adding a disengage type of ability that would essentially be a jet boost backwards. I like the idea. Maybe even with a snare for anyone in X amount of feet. Small chance but would make the world of difference. I'm sure there's another way to accomplish something similar by tweaking the trees but I'm not familiar enough with them to really comment on that.

 

Much as I hate Force Camo out of sheer jealousy, I agree that nerfs are taking things in the wrong direction.

 

For assault I honestly think having Charged Bolts on an instant cast with cooldown (talented) and having it proc Plasma Cell 100% of the time (Talented) would solve alot of the specs problems since that would make them more mobile AND give them the kiting tool they need to go along with their knockback (though a baseline snare or root on a 15s cooldown like Sages(a snare) or Gunslingers (a root) get would not go amiss).

 

Gunnery is much more stationary and needs the tools to reflect that. Personally, I think concussion charge should root the targets in place similar to sage knockback (talented), the talented snare on Full Auto should be a root (since the FA channel is a 3s self root), and an ability added high in the tree similar to the Tactics Vanguard Hold the Line ability which would grant immunity to leaps and interrupts for 8 seconds on a 30 second cooldown. It would give a way for Gunnery to have the defense and time needed to get their setup done, but not 100% of the time so it's use would require smart tactical use, and the CD wouldn't be so restrictive that we'd only be useful once a minute.

 

None of that would stop a merc or commando from being curb stomped when they get focused, but it would also stop them from being a guaranteed free kill the second they get noticed.

[UGLYMRJ]

All sounds pretty logical to me... hard for me to say for sure of course since I haven't played the class yet. Thanks for the feedback though. The original thought seemed so logical but I always wonder what the brilliant minds of the forums will think.

[ArchangelLBC]

The brilliant minds will agree that we should nerf operatives.

[UGLYMRJ]

The brilliant minds will agree that we should nerf operatives.

 

It truly is the only solution...

[Xerain]

I think the best nerf to operatives is to make all their damage with that knife melee instead of tech... how come i can't dodge a guy stabbing me with a knife but i can dodge a guy swinging a lightsaber at me?

[NilanVoid]

As always the solution is to nerf operatives.

 

^^ Pretty much, this...

[Yeochins]

Never thought about this until now, but I see a trend and it makes sense to me. Maybe I'm not looking at the big picture but I think I see it just fine.

 

Now people complain about certain classes being soft, squishy and not having much defensive ability. What never really clicked until today was that the biggest complaints are the following.

 

1. Mercs and sorcs are too soft.

2. Marauders and Tanksins are too tough. (Less tanksin complaints now obviously but they're still tough)

 

Now after these there are complaints about PT's defense but it's not nearly as bad as 30m classes like sniper, merc and sorcs. What I'm getting at is, it seems as if the further from the fight you are.... or capable of being, the softer you are for the most part.

 

Anyways, just wondering what people's thought are on it. It makes sense to me and I would assume it was intentional. To me it wouldn't make much sense to have a ranged class being tougher than a melee class. It's kind of the same as in many FPS games, a light armor class will be faster than a heavy armor class. Give a little to get a little. I also didn't include a few classes since I don't see much talk about them or have I played them so I would love the feedback.

 

As long as that feedback isn't "NERF MARAUDERS"... it always hurts my feeling. I don't wanna be nerfed!!!

 

You dont seem to understand the fact there is no real melee class in this game. All melee except operatives have a 30 meter gap closer - whether it is a leap, or pull. There is no advantage to being a ranged Sorcerer, or Mercenary because there is very little "gap closing" time to work with. Coupled with the fact that melees have slows and roots its not possible to get good distance from flawless play by marauders, or powertechs.

[Vaipyr]

What I'm getting at is, it seems as if the further from the fight you are.... or capable of being, the softer you are for the most part.

 

Anyways, just wondering what people's thought are on it. It makes sense to me

 

You're right, and it DOES make sense... if melee isn't fully capable of near 100% uptime on most every ranged target. Now be honest with yourself and how often are you actually out of melee combat (besides running back from respawn)?

 

If you're anything like myself, or the vast majority of anyone with a melee toon (yes, even DPS ops though they could still use a movement utility for tactical reasons) the answer is probably "Well shoot, I'm almost always in melee against my target".

 

Especially when you count the strange "phantom" reach effect (both for and against melee guys) where someone is clearly trying to kite in that mystical 11m range, and appears to be there on his screen, yet the melee dude chasing him is swinging at the air and like an anime ninja still producing damage via the rushing air current from his missed swings.

 

Sorc's can kite well. Other ranged classes, not so much. Snipers are fairly good too depending on which spec they are. Yet still, through using LoS in every WZ and sprinting leaping zen-ninja zerg powers of god my melee toons have I find that I'm really never incapable of sticking in melee range to unload on those ranged "squishies".

 

*The main problems with Maras though is that their durability is on par, and in some situations GREATER, than those of melee TANKS. Yet they still get to have their ZOMGBURST along with it. Yes, I retired my tank for a sentinal and it's sooooo much more effective overall. Only miss out on throwing taunts (guard just gets tanks killed 9/10x if they're not babysat by a professional pocket healer anyways).*

[Kalifus]

Especially when you count the strange "phantom" reach effect (both for and against melee guys) where someone is clearly trying to kite in that mystical 11m range, and appears to be there on his screen, yet the melee dude chasing him is swinging at the air and like an anime ninja still producing damage via the rushing air current from his missed swings.*

 

Ya what is the deal with that.