MMO's Do Not Die.

[VarKoE]

Are you kidding or being sarcastic ?

 

UO is still one of the top games with (imo) widest range of sandbox options, those who love sandbox elements & RP are still playing it ( including me). Besides, even after EA purchased UO, since game has solid systems, of course it will not easily die because no matter how "good" you get in that game, there's always something to do.

 

Asheron's Call is by far my favorite MMO, and by comparing SWTOR with it I realized how SWTOR feels super static. Think of AC's map, dynamism, sandbox elements and furthermore; even after all those years that game still has live events every month, with new updates. Did they change the graphics ? no . Are they really working hard to please their loyal customers ? Absolutely. This is also one of the major differences, here Devs knew they were going to get lots of negative feedback and it probably scared them, but closing your eyes and running away from such loyal player base is not acceptable.

 

Continuing with the same example, why do you think AC 2 failed ? I think It was more like SWTOR compared to AC 1. In other words, the game was not really dynamic anKd had no depth.

 

If you really enjoy the game, I am happy for you but if you look around you'll see the game is almost in coma now. I have been playing MMOs since 1999, and must say I have never seen such lack of management in any mmos.

 

Played both (alpha wave uo and early beta ac). Loved ac, uo not so much.

 

Both are still kicking with their niche and they both are more sandbox than tor. Thats a choice not mismanagement. Also both have small markets. But still love ac -resub every now snd then just to kill a drudge or two.

 

Howver tor is far from a coma, and suggestions of closing or no expansions are just odd to me. In a yr or so you will have a pretty good idea if this will be a mainstream mmo or niche one.

Edited July 25, 2012 by VarKoE

[ChickenWangs]

My example: Star trek Online. Way less subs at launch than TOR and yet still running with a good, active community. It's F2P, but in this market that seems to be the eventual direction of all MMOs. The question is how long will it take for TOR to go F2P. I give it more than 2 years because it took STO 2 years to go F2P. If a company can manage off low subs then EA can manage to keep it's subscription base with 300-800k subs (estimate).

[DarthTHC]

AC2 promised (either directly, or through player delusion, or both) to be a popular sequal to AC1. It was not. Just becasue they called it AC2 did not make it an actual MMO successor to AC1. It was a very different game, when in fact what players wanted was a logical extension to AC1, an AC1+ if you will. AC2 died because of a failed business plan (faked extension of AC1 IP) and failed expectations on the part of a relatively small player base.

 

There is no comparison to SWTOR, other then in your reminicient AC1 mind.

 

Wrong. AC2 died because the developers thought that foisting a piss-poor quality game (both in terms of bugs and game mechanics) upon the masses and then worsening its quality with every release would be a brilliant business strategy.

 

There is also comparison to SWTOR. They aped some of the worst mechanics of existing games while purposefully leaving out some of the best. They certainly didn't bring anything new and compelling to the genere (story is cool but it's been in RPGs for over a decade). For a little while, each release brought with it a reduction in overall quality of the game (bugs) and they still have some longstanding ones that aren't fixed. They seem to have turned that around but with the recent double-round of staffing cuts, how much confidence can there be for the upwards trend to continue?

Edited July 25, 2012 by DarthTHC

[jarjarloves]

Which consisted of A map that existed before Live and some Skaven character models (4 to be precise).

 

Other than that it was simply rejigging what already existed and charging a lot for it - it's no wonder that one of WARs biggest % population drops was right after 1.4 went Live (full of promise, very short on actual delievery ).

 

 

 

 

It's still running, and may be turning a very small profit.

 

Equally it might still be running because of the contract with GW.

 

Either way the game is zombiefied.

oh god no WAR's biggest drops where during the first 6 months. By that time they had alredy lost more then 75% of their subs.

 

Of course WAR was plauged with problems most notably the first 2 content patches where just stuff that was cut from launch like 4 classes and so on.

 

They actually extened their contract with GW so yeah it must be making a profit.

 

Point still being that seeing as SWTOR already made its budget back off of box sales and has more subs then WAR ever had its not likely they will be shutting down SWTOR

[Andryah]

There is also comparison to SWTOR. They aped some of the worst mechanics of existing games while purposefully leaving out some of the best. They certainly didn't bring anything new and compelling to the genere (story is cool but it's been in RPGs for over a decade). For a little while, each release brought with it a reduction in overall quality of the game (bugs) and they still have some longstanding ones that aren't fixed. They seem to have turned that around but with the recent double-round of staffing cuts, how much confidence can there be for the upwards trend to continue?

 

Opinion is.... opinion, not fact. You are entitled to it as opinion, but not as fact.

 

And you consistently demonstrate a lack of understanding of basic business operations with comments like what I highlighted above.

[KJOhio]

SWG, Asheron's Call 2, Tabula Rasa .. these are the ones I played. There may be more.

[Sporin]

 

Warhammer Online has been in maintainace mode (MMO-undeath) for several years now and it was only realeased in Sept 2008. In fact it never really got any new content at all (a couple of classes that were supposed to be in at release and a new zone that was 90% developed before it went Live).

 

Believe me maintanace mode is pretty much death for an MMORPG, or at least undeath, zombieMMOs aren't much fun.

 

That is maybe why we are getting maint. downtime 2 or 3 times a week... They are practicing it!

[DarthTHC]

Opinion is.... opinion, not fact. You are entitled to it as opinion, but not as fact.

 

And you consistently demonstrate a lack of understanding of basic business operations with comments like what I highlighted above.

 

Really? You think quality will improve after losing hundreds of people from the team, including leaders on the team, including testers and senior developers, including some people who were likely with the game from the beginning?

 

I've worked in IT for decades. Large staff cuts always always always impact quality and delivery schedule. Always.

Edited July 25, 2012 by DarthTHC

[DarthTHC]

oh god no WAR's biggest drops where during the first 6 months. By that time they had alredy lost more then 75% of their subs.

 

Of course WAR was plauged with problems most notably the first 2 content patches where just stuff that was cut from launch like 4 classes and so on.

 

They actually extened their contract with GW so yeah it must be making a profit.

 

Point still being that seeing as SWTOR already made its budget back off of box sales and has more subs then WAR ever had its not likely they will be shutting down SWTOR

 

Even if they got $60 per box (they didn't get anywhere near that), at 2,000,000 boxes sold they got $120,000,000. Cost of producing the game has been suggested as over 200 mil and up to 300 mil.

[jarjarloves]

Even if they got $60 per box (they didn't get anywhere near that), at 2,000,000 boxes sold they got $120,000,000. Cost of producing the game has been suggested as over 200 mil and up to 300 mil.

 

they said they made their budget back from the first month box sales in the first EA quarterly call. You are correct that it has been SUGGESTED that it MIGHT cost up to 200 million but there has been no actual proof of that.

 

 

edit: the 200 million price tag came from a New York times investigation where they also said the game had 800 people on four continents with an additional 1,000 voice actors making the game.

 

Their numbers are way off they included everything ie stuff Bioware outsourced as a payed employee or cost of the game.

Edited July 25, 2012 by jarjarloves

[DarthTHC]

they said they made their budget back from the first month box sales in the first EA quarterly call. You are correct that it has been SUGGESTED that it MIGHT cost up to 200 million but there has been no actual proof of that.

 

 

edit: the 200 million price tag came from a New York times investigation where they also said the game had 800 people on four continents with an additional 1,000 voice actors making the game.

 

Their numbers are way off they included everything ie stuff Bioware outsourced as a payed employee or cost of the game.

 

 

They said that, eh? Good.

 

Hopefully they can find a way to keep the service running profitably.

[WickedDjinn]

Are you kidding or being sarcastic ?

 

UO is still one of the top games with (imo) widest range of sandbox options, those who love sandbox elements & RP are still playing it ( including me). Besides, even after EA purchased UO, since game has solid systems, of course it will not easily die because no matter how "good" you get in that game, there's always something to do.

 

Asheron's Call is by far my favorite MMO, and by comparing SWTOR with it I realized how SWTOR feels super static. Think of AC's map, dynamism, sandbox elements and furthermore; even after all those years that game still has live events every month, with new updates. Did they change the graphics ? no . Are they really working hard to please their loyal customers ? Absolutely. This is also one of the major differences, here Devs knew they were going to get lots of negative feedback and it probably scared them, but closing your eyes and running away from such loyal player base is not acceptable.

 

Continuing with the same example, why do you think AC 2 failed ? I think It was more like SWTOR compared to AC 1. In other words, the game was not really dynamic and had no depth.

 

If you really enjoy the game, I am happy for you but if you look around you'll see the game is almost in coma now. I have been playing MMOs since 1999, and must say I have never seen such lack of management in any mmos.

 

 

Not once have I brought my personal feelings into this discussion as far as how much I like TOR. If anything I'm more often then not posting negatively about various issues with the game.

 

But once again, all that is besides the point.

 

And the point is that the age old big three, the founding fathers of the genre, still live! You know how long they've been around. You've been MMOing for that long. Despite the fact that they've had niche audiences for YEARS, they live on. I wasn't being sarcastic. You assume so because you apparently find the mere mention of TOR and Asherons Call in the same post offensive.

 

Again, this isn't rocket science. Look at how many MMOs have been released since Everquest. Few have ever completely gone away. Those that have were affected by issues unique to them in most cases. SWG is a fine example. Even after Sony came along and wrecked that game and drove off many of its players, if TOR hadnt come along it would Still be running.

 

Startrek online. Panned as a horrible game right out of the game. It survives and is still being updated.

 

Look, you are an intelligent person. I'm not going to go down a list, breaking this down like you're a child. MMOs... Regardless of population. Regardless of Metcritic score. Regardless of age or even game quality, very rarely shut down.

[AFKGCWBOT]

All the doomsdaying needs to stop tbh. Bioware is probably working on 1.4 hurr. With massive layoffs it's kind of obvious they all need to work on 1.4 instead of twittering and facebooking to reassure and comfort all the WOW kiddos.

[jarjarloves]

They said that, eh? Good.

 

Hopefully they can find a way to keep the service running profitably.

 

yeah it was an interesting read. They say that it far exceeded their expectations and with that they decided to increase spending for the next quarter. So my guess is they increased spending then when people left they had a loss of subcribers and increased spending so they had to cut a lot of personal. So that leaves us where we are now.

[Fireswraith]

Whatever the future holds, rest assured of one thing. The chance of this game no longer being supported even years from now is almost nonexistent.

 

When this game goes completely F2P I will consider it unsupported........... because BW wasn't good enough to support it up to that point. That's only if it happens though.

[Blondesolid]

Its true, this old slug will be in the garden for many years to come.

[Fornix]

When this game goes completely F2P I will consider it unsupported........... because BW wasn't good enough to support it up to that point. That's only if it happens though.

 

Well, may be true to the F2P haters, but if EA makes the change it may also just be that they believe they can make even more money by means of a F2P model instead.

 

After all, what's more lucrative than having people pay monthlies, on top of additional fees for fluff objects and legacy perks / unlocks. In addition to pulling in new people to do the same by offering them a free full time trial with no real limit anymore in terms of level.

[Sporin]

Did they make their money back though? The stocks would have you thinking things are in a bad way. (Asking an honest question btw).

 

Cause if they haven't and they are dumping staff, though J.O. said they were "keeping their full team" to work on content, does that mean that the new content will be a bought (£30) expansion to cover it and the sub loss?

 

Was all the VO done before release? One lump sum contract per actor for x-amount of VO work? Can they afford to throw good money after bad if not? Expansion delays? ...There is so many questions and fears.

[jarjarloves]

Did they make their money back though? The stocks would have you thinking things are in a bad way. (Asking an honest question btw).

 

Cause if they haven't and they are dumping staff, though J.O. said they were "keeping their full team" to work on content, does that mean that the new content will be a bought (£30) expansion to cover it and the sub loss?

 

Was all the VO done before release? One lump sum contract per actor for x-amount of VO work? Can they afford to throw good money after bad if not? Expansion delays? ...There is so many questions and fears.

 

they said they made their budget back in the first earnings call and if you remember the stocks DID go up after that first earning call. They went back down after and after the losses.

 

As for the voices and content we have no idea on how much they have or how much they can reuse. I do remember them saying they have enough content for the next year or so when they launched the question is how much is actually done, how long does it take to make it fully ready, and how many people do you need working on that.

 

They have also said MANY TIMES that the Makeb and the level cap increase will be FREE.

 

Don't bother worrying about the game just play it and have fun. If the game is going to be shut down tommorow is there anything you could do to stop it? no so just play and enjoy

[Fornix]

Did they make their money back though? The stocks would have you thinking things are in a bad way. (Asking an honest question btw).

 

Cause if they haven't and they are dumping staff, though J.O. said they were "keeping their full team" to work on content, does that mean that the new content will be a bought (£30) expansion to cover it and the sub loss?

 

Was all the VO done before release? One lump sum contract per actor for x-amount of VO work? Can they afford to throw good money after bad if not? Expansion delays? ...There is so many questions and fears.

 

Their stocks are bad yes, but keep in mind, it's EA stock, not SWTOR stock.

 

And not just EA, but the entire market has done bad when it comes to the video gaming industry, looking at the last 5 year results:

 

THQ - 298.24 (-98.33%)

EA - 40.36 (-77.81%)

Take-Two Interactive - 11.12 (-55.47%)

Activision/Blizzard + 2.64 (+29.08%)

Ubisoft - 16.26 (-74.95%)

 

Out of the big 5 the majority made major losses, THQ in particular. The only one which increased in stock value is Activision/Blizzard, but also their stock isn't worth that much.

 

The problem of the past years is investors don't understand the changes currently going on in the market. Sales are going digital, games are going free, profit is gained more and more by means of DLC, item malls, etc. Digital sales are also taking in profit. All of this isn't grasped by investors, they fail to understand how lowering prices or giving away products for free leads to increased profits. Also they fail to understand the concept of digital sales.

 

So all they look at is profit from store sales, that decreases, they lose faith and start ditching their stock, result, stock values keep dropping.

[Tommot]

They have also said MANY TIMES that the Makeb and the level cap increase will be FREE.

Mind pointing where? I havent heard this before.

[jarjarloves]

Mind pointing where? I havent heard this before.

 

they said it in a bunch of E3 interviews

here are a couple of interviews about it.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/videos/play/2485/James-Ohlen-On-the-Future-of-the-Game.html

 

 

James says Makeb will be the largest content ever added to a MMO for free outside of a Expansion.

[Blackardin]

This is speculative. It is not fact. Your argument has many logical errors. There is no way to "divine" the future of SWTOR or any MMORPG.

 

Then people should stop predicting it's death, no? I think that is what he was speaking to....the constant and continual unsupported post promulgating such?

 

 

By stating "oh noes that's an exception", you invalidate your own argument. Since you emphatically stated:

 

"Whatever the future holds, rest assured of one thing. The chance of this game no longer being supported even years from now is almost nonexistent."

 

Again you show defensiveness in the defence of your premise.

 

Now all that said, I would like to see this game stay around for a while but, with defenses of SWTOR like this, we don't need any enemies.

 

This is just another example of:

 

"Quick Fanboiz Assemble! ™"

 

Good try. Poor execution.

 

He may have not phrased it completely correctly as a thesis, but the gist of the argument is solid enough to postulate a theory regarding the subject matter. In short, the chances of this game suddenly going belly-up in the next several years, let alone the next several months, based upon observable data regarding the genre, is very minute. Exceptions are irrelevant to the argument. There are always exceptions.

[Synxos]

He may have not phrased it completely correctly as a thesis, but the gist of the argument is solid enough to postulate a theory regarding the subject matter. In short, the chances of this game suddenly going belly-up in the next several years, let alone the next several months, based upon observable data regarding the genre, is very minute. Exceptions are irrelevant to the argument. There are always exceptions.

You're ignoring the observable data regarding this game. 2.4 million subs to 1.3 million subs in 3 months. That number is no doubt much lower now, you'll see in a month or 2. My server went from 100 people on fleet when that number was announced, to under 20 people at peak times.

They went from 100+ servers to just 12. Explain how that's not a huge sign the game is dying?

It's unlikely the game will shut down in the next few months, BUT to say it can't die in the next several years is just delusional.

[Synxos]

they said it in a bunch of E3 interviews

here are a couple of interviews about it.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/videos/play/2485/James-Ohlen-On-the-Future-of-the-Game.html

 

 

James says Makeb will be the largest content ever added to a MMO for free outside of a Expansion.

They've promised a lot of things, and changed them at the last minute.