Why Hero Engine Bioware?

[--Grim--]

SWTOR didn't fail because of the Hero Engine. It failed because the gameplay design is very poor.

 

I don't understand the lemming push to blame the Hero Engine for all of SWTOR's failings. If the Devs had created a fun game then the same lemmings would be praising the engine.

 

The Hero Engine is just a canvas the Devs use to illustrate their designs. The design sucked, not the canvas.

Edited July 24, 2012 by --Grim--

[turjake]

no. KotOR 2 was made by Obsidian..BioWare had NOTHING to do with it...nor the time-frame of it.

 

and no they're not the same company. the "real" BioWare would NEVER have done what they did to DA2...as just ONE example.

 

wrong wrong and wrong.

 

but thanks for playing.

 

I know its made by Obsidian, not Bioware.

[Suromir]

I know its made by Obsidian, not Bioware.

 

then your "example" has nothing to do with your post nor your point of defending BioWare by saying they're still the same company.

 

how about DA2? that's not only an example of a rushed (cash grab) game, but so many shortcuts were taken it was sickening..and it WAS BIOWARE.....and if you followed the criticisms...BioWare, esp Gaider, kept defending DA2 and saying us fans "just don't get it" (not that it was a crap game or bad choices were made to cash-in on DA:O's success..but we "didn't get it")

 

and DA2 is the PERFECT example of MY point that BioWare is NOT the same company anymore...that game was an abortion.

 

if you're going to make a counterpoint at least have it make sense and have to do with the company you're defending. but again, thanks for playing.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Suromir

[Malastare]

Let me make clear. I am not out to bash Bioware.

 

Yet you are.

 

You've been trolling this point for months, and over all that time, you still haven't managed to educate yourself at all about how software is actually made. It is very, very common in software development to take an existing package or framework and modify it and build it up for your own purposes.

 

Did you actually think that they just bought Hero Engine and had a hundred developers working with Photoshop for a few years to create textures? Please at least try to apply some sort of logic here. They bought the engine so they could modify it and re-write it at will. That's why you don't see a "Made with Hero Engine" ad anywhere on SWTOR. What SWTOR uses hasn't been the Hero Engine for a long time. They even mention in those articles that you quote but refuse to understand, that they haven't been able to apply patches from the Hero Engine codebase for a long time because it no longer resembled the SWTOR codebase.

 

The point of using Hero Engine was that it would allow them to begin prototyping immediately, and that (in my opinion) would be critical to a story-driven game. You'd really need to be able to start setting up the worlds as soon as possible to help the story designers while the core developers continued work writing/re-writing the parts that needed it. Anyone with a decent background in software can see the changes they're making. Even a novice can see that the SWTOR app is multiprocessing, which certainly isn't a function of the Hero Engine.

 

Do you have any idea at all about how software is developed? Do you understand how code even works?

 

Not that I expect you to understand this now, of course. You've had this explained to you many times. Why would it suddenly make sense the fifteenth time you read it? Whatever, I guess. Why let ignorance slow you down? Research and actually understanding are for chumps, right?

 

Looking forward to next week's rehash of this same topic, started off by you.

[turjake]

then your "example" has nothing to do with your post nor your point of defending BioWare by saying they're still the same company.

 

how about DA2? that's not only an example of a rushed (cash grab) game, but so many shortcuts were taken it was sickening..and it WAS BIOWARE.....and if you followed the criticisms...BioWare, esp Gaider, kept defending DA2 and saying us fans "just don't get it" (not that it was a crap game or bad choices were made to cash-in on DA:O's success..but we "didn't get it")

 

and DA2 is the PERFECT example of MY point that BioWare is NOT the same company anymore...that game was an abortion.

 

if you're going to make a counterpoint at least have it make sense and have to do with the company you're defending. but again, thanks for playing.

 

Maybe you should reread my post and try to understand it too before you rant some more. Ill help, first 2 sentences is enough.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Yet you are.

 

You've been trolling this point for months, and over all that time, you still haven't managed to educate yourself at all about how software is actually made. It is very, very common in software development to take an existing package or framework and modify it and build it up for your own purposes.

 

Did you actually think that they just bought Hero Engine and had a hundred developers working with Photoshop for a few years to create textures? Please at least try to apply some sort of logic here. They bought the engine so they could modify it and re-write it at will. That's why you don't see a "Made with Hero Engine" ad anywhere on SWTOR. What SWTOR uses hasn't been the Hero Engine for a long time. They even mention in those articles that you quote but refuse to understand, that they haven't been able to apply patches from the Hero Engine codebase for a long time because it no longer resembled the SWTOR codebase.

 

The point of using Hero Engine was that it would allow them to begin prototyping immediately, and that (in my opinion) would be critical to a story-driven game. You'd really need to be able to start setting up the worlds as soon as possible to help the story designers while the core developers continued work writing/re-writing the parts that needed it. Anyone with a decent background in software can see the changes they're making. Even a novice can see that the SWTOR app is multiprocessing, which certainly isn't a function of the Hero Engine.

 

Do you have any idea at all about how software is developed? Do you understand how code even works?

 

Not that I expect you to understand this now, of course. You've had this explained to you many times. Why would it suddenly make sense the fifteenth time you read it? Whatever, I guess. Why let ignorance slow you down? Research and actually understanding are for chumps, right?

 

Looking forward to next week's rehash of this same topic, started off by you.

 

Your post is clearly full of hate. I understand your stance to defend Bioware. Just because you say I am out to bash someone, clearly it doesn't make it true. Your post is covered with bitterness and I will put in bold the bitter part just so you understand.

 

What I actually do see is seven separate thread's created long before I made this thread. In those thread's the mod's clearly warn against Flaming and Flame Baiting but I see no actual response from a Dev in detail about the engine or the design. There was over seven separate thread's with countless reply's from different people.

 

I suppose those people were just trolling their points too?

 

They mention that in articles but I refuse to admit? show me any article anywhere. I think they have been given ample time to respond but they are the ones who refused to do so. How about actually providing some links to back up your information instead of just babbling on about what a bad person I am. How I must be a troll because I disagree with their choice of a engine.

 

In fact the ONLY information I have found close to them talking about the engine design was from Hero Engine website. Aside from that there is NOTHING I have found on the web and it's both insulting and offending at the same time you think I would cut out information.

 

If the changes they are making so fast and superior they why are we having nearly two down times a month? why when they added the patch that day it deleted the guild bank. Then had to re-roll back the servers. Why are the loading screen's taking at least 5 minutes if not more for some people. That's what prompted me to make the thread. People complaining about the wait time and I traced it back to the engine.

 

Now in closing you have explained nothing, over and over. I wouldn't be surprised if you worked on their team how your post is "I'm better then you, smarter and I know thing's you cannot understand" is the engine is so superior why is it having so many problems. At least I been a fan of them but willing to admit their short coming's and ask they respond kindly about the engine.

 

IMO, they should have created their own engine. That's what other company's did. Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and I am sure they did not have the budget. Maybe you should go tell their company's obviously they don't understand coding and what not.

 

Thanks for your hate full, non contrition post.

Edited July 24, 2012 by DragonAgeOrgins

[Trenter]

Your post is clearly full of hate. I understand your stance to defend Bioware. Just because you say I am out to bash someone, clearly it doesn't make it true. Your post is covered with bitterness and I will put in bold the bitter part just so you understand.

 

What I actually do see is seven separate thread's created long before I made this thread. In those thread's the mod's clearly warn against Flaming and Flame Baiting but I see no actual response from a Dev in detail about the engine or the design. There was over seven separate thread's with countless reply's from different people.

 

I suppose those people were just trolling their points too?

 

They mention that in articles but I refuse to admit? show me any article anywhere. I think they have been given ample time to respond but they are the ones who refused to do so. How about actually providing some links to back up your information instead of just babbling on about what a bad person I am. How I must be a troll because I disagree with their choice of a engine.

 

In fact the ONLY information I have found close to them talking about the engine design was from Hero Engine website. Aside from that there is NOTHING I have found on the web and it's both insulting and offending at the same time you think I would cut out information.

 

If the changes they are making so fast and superior they why are we having nearly two down times a month? why when they added the patch that day it deleted the guild bank. Then had to re-roll back the servers. Why are the loading screen's taking at least 5 minutes if not more for some people. That's what prompted me to make the thread. People complaining about the wait time and I traced it back to the engine.

 

Now in closing you have explained nothing, over and over. I wouldn't be surprised if you worked on their team how your post is "I'm better then you, smarter and I know thing's you cannot understand" is the engine is so superior why is it having so many problems. At least I been a fan of them but willing to admit their short coming's and ask they respond kindly about the engine.

 

IMO, they should have created their own engine. That's what other company's did. Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and I am sure they did not have the budget. Maybe you should go tell their company's obviously they don't understand coding and what not.

 

Thanks for your hate full, non contrition post.

 

So... do you know anything about coding and engines or not?

 

Why do you need an answer anyways? What good will that do you?

[Malastare]

Your post is clearly full of hate.

 

Not hate. Annoyance. I'm tired of you repeatedly complaining about things you don't understand, and basing your arguments on a lack of knowledge. See below.

 

In fact the ONLY information I have found close to them talking about the engine design was from Hero Engine website. Aside from that there is NOTHING I have found on the web and it's both insulting and offending at the same time you think I would cut out information.

 

So, you don't know anything about the design. And you don't have any actual knowledge about software design or development in general. And you haven't found any more research which is actually applicable to SWTOR. So, in the absence of information, expertise, and research you make an assumption of what it must be like... regardless of the fact that you have no basis or knowledge to make that assumption.

 

Yet you complain and criticize developers, despite the fact that you don't actually understand even the fundamental topics at hand.

 

When confronted with this, you simply toss out unrelated complaints:

 

If the changes they are making so fast and superior they why are we having nearly two down times a month? why when they added the patch that day it deleted the guild bank. Then had to re-roll back the servers. Why are the loading screen's taking at least 5 minutes if not more for some people. That's what prompted me to make the thread. People complaining about the wait time and I traced it back to the engine.

 

Your "I traced it back to the Engine" is the only tenuous link to the discussion at hand, and it is --yet again-- based on a lack of information. You don't know about the engine or software development. But you "traced it back" based on the fact that the Hero Engine link is all you know, so it must be the problem, yeah?

 

In effort to prove my point and perhaps educate you a bit:

• Bugs introduced during patching (aka: Regressions) are not related to or caused by engine choice. They are a product of software development. No engine or framework can or will ever prevent regressions.
  
• The number or length of maintenance times is not related to or caused by engine choice. This is a function of development style and product organization. It is completely orthogonal to engine "quality"
  
• Load times are strongly linked to hardware capability. While engine characteristics can have direct impacts on load times, the times themselves are not a measure of engine quality. In practice, load times (ignoring hardware effects) are far more strongly linked to resource size and complexity rather than engine design. As a result, novices are almost certainly unable to make any sort of judgement as to engine quality based on load time.
  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if you worked on their team...

 

As expected: When presented with an argument you cannot counter, claim your opponent is part of a conspiracy to suppress your opinion.

 

I don't work for Bioware. Or EA. But I am a developer. And I've been doing this for twelve years now. When I talk about software design and the use of frameworks or "starter packages" it's not because I read some Yahoo! Answers posts or hit up a couple MMO blogs. This is just everyday life for me. Now, I have to go back and work on some code that's needed to support a whole bunch of new customers.

 

And --in case it might finally sink in-- the software I'm working on was bought from a small company and then heavily modified and re-written by us over the course of a couple years. The original version couldn't hope to support more than a few thousand customers. The current version can support 100 times that. And while bugs exist, trying to say that they exist because original version was cheap or didn't scale well or because we didn't write the whole thing from scratch would just show how little you understood about software.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Malastare

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

This get's even more unreal. Thanks for the link. I'm updating the main question with this article in mind placing in bold the parts I find interesting.

 

Quote

 

“I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.” Gordon is not an excitable guy by nature but this had his adrenaline flowing. “This is just what I need! I want to license your engine.”

 

We had thought about offering our engine and tools to developers but we had expected that we would have to actually ship a game first, like Epic did with Unreal Tournament before they licensed the original Unreal Engine.

 

“It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.”

 

End Quote

 

Totally unreal but explains so much. It was not optimized from the start. Something people with loading long screens and two down times a week will notice. Why it takes so long to load and why it's so unstable at times. I find it highly interesting.

 

That Bioware stone wall's us on this issue over seven month's and not a word to comment. Yet on Hero Engine own website they detail how the meeting went and with their own admission they clearly stated the engine wasn't ready.

 

Despite the warnings. They took the engine anyways and from layoff's I doubt it will get worked out anytime soon. Just wow.

 

FFS, that quote is something someone said in 2005. "We took an early version of our game to the legendary 2005 E3 show", he's talking about what happened 7 years ago.

 

As was stated, BW wanted to modify the engine themselves. Lots of companies do that, licence the engine and then tailor it heavily to their own game's needs.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

So... do you know anything about coding and engines or not?

 

Why do you need an answer anyways? What good will that do you?

 

This thread is not intended to discuss my personal knowledge of coding. I don't need a degree in gaming to see a pattern. By using your logic, you are saying in order to have a point of view of something that I must have a degree in that subject.

 

Logically, I cannot understand why Warcraft and Guild Wars 2 have an engine that has more fluid, fast paced combat. I cannot understand why they won't comment on the engine. The only information I found on the web about the engine was from "Hero Engine" website.

 

From their admission they picked an engine that wasn't ready and rewrote the code in order for time for launch. People are having problem with long loading screens. The down times go on average 2 times a week. Seriously everything I love about this game is great, expect the engine.

 

I am just seeking an answer but not from fanboi's who love to inform me that "I simply don't understand" I don't to take classes in acting or directing a movie to know when I dislike a movie. Not because "I don't understand it",

 

Bottom Line: Why is the engine having so many problems. It took months after release for them to have High textures, they just recently upgraded the graphics and added "Bloom" in beta for some reason the graphics were much much better.(You can confirm this by searching through the topics)

 

I cannot seriously be the only one, scratching their head thinking the game's engine is not what it should be.

Edited July 24, 2012 by DragonAgeOrgins

[Tekkoclarky]

He can't spell cheque.

 

Yes the Hero Engine ruined this game, I think mass pvp will never be possible due to the terrible engine.

 

GW2 looks much nicer than this game, yet you can mass pvp with no lag at all.

 

I'm in shock anyone can defend the engine, it is terrible.

 

It is sad, the game had so much potential. It's Bioware's first MMO so they should learn from this at least.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Tekkoclarky

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Not hate. Annoyance. I'm tired of you repeatedly complaining about things you don't understand, and basing your arguments on a lack of knowledge. See below..

 

I am going to stop responding to you not because you provided a full front arugment that is superior. Actually your post just Nitpick's my thread commenting on thing's repeating and recycling the same used line "Oh so you know nothing about coding..well then when you know coding you can comment.."

 

Here's what I DO KNOW in comparing to Warcraft and Guild Wars 2, having played both. I cannot understand you are right, but not about the coding why a company with a much smaller budget is able to create a more superior engine. You are correct. I do not understand coding but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem

 

However you are so prone to ignore to the several complaints by not me by several other players with a total over seven thread's complaining about the engine. I do feel sad for whatever company you work for with an attitude like yours, every complaint you must dismiss as "above their heads" and when the game suffers "gamers don't understand coding"

 

Do I need to understand how to make a meal from scratch to figure out if I dislike the taste. Should I go to cooking school and learn how to make a five star meal, in order to know that if I dislike it. I simply don't understand. You have provided no information, other then recycling insults. Nothing.

 

Where are all these links you provided about Bioware commenting on their engine. Oh yeah that's right you don't have them because they don't exist. You pretty much just back and forth insulted me. I will not have this thread pulled off topic just to pleasure your ego.

Edited July 24, 2012 by DragonAgeOrgins
typo

[Tekkoclarky]

So... do you know anything about coding and engines or not?

 

Why do you need an answer anyways? What good will that do you?

 

It's got nothing to do with knowing about coding.

 

It's to ask them why their engineers are so crap/or why they chose such a crap engine in the first place which can't handle more than 10 people in one area.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Tekkoclarky

[Rikeryo]

I support DragonAgeOrgins.

[Bloodstealer]

This get's even more unreal. Thanks for the link. I'm updating the main question with this article in mind placing in bold the parts I find interesting.

 

Quote

 

“I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.” Gordon is not an excitable guy by nature but this had his adrenaline flowing. “This is just what I need! I want to license your engine.”

 

We had thought about offering our engine and tools to developers but we had expected that we would have to actually ship a game first, like Epic did with Unreal Tournament before they licensed the original Unreal Engine.

 

“It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.”

 

End Quote

 

Totally unreal but explains so much. It was not optimized from the start. Something people with loading long screens and two down times a week will notice. Why it takes so long to load and why it's so unstable at times. I find it highly interesting.

 

That Bioware stone wall's us on this issue over seven month's and not a word to comment. Yet on Hero Engine own website they detail how the meeting went and with their own admission they clearly stated the engine wasn't ready.

 

Despite the warnings. They took the engine anyways and from layoff's I doubt it will get worked out anytime soon. Just wow.

 

Why why why... this is sooo yesterday and will be filed with the multitude of other threads about the engine.

Could of just read those threads, even commented in them if you felt the urge rather than dredging up a dog that's been beaten to death already.

 

Fact - the game has the BWHero engine now.. meaning that after all those years of coding, re-coding, rehashing, adding, taking away.. its not really the Hero Engine anymore.... go take a look through their own forums and you will see that BW cut ties with the Hero to keep it all underwraps... that to me was the bigger mistake. The engine itself now that's its been through its alpha and beta etc etc doesnt look too bad but if you take something that wasnt close to being alpha tested and then butcher that same product to work at the core of your $multi-million AAA MMO then.. well the rst I guess is now history.

Personally I would of taken HERO and wrapped an NDA around them and tied them to their chairs to get working on the SWTOR engine.... afterall they were the engine experts and BW were the game developers.... but its not like EABW are gunna STOP and atart again now is it so this thread is futile really..

Edited July 24, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Bloodstealer]

It's got nothing to do with knowing about coding.

 

It's to ask them why their engineers are so crap/or why they chose such a crap engine in the first place which can't handle more than 10 people in one area.

 

Well reading into your assumptions you obviously know quite a bit about engines, am I right?..... as to call the Hero Engine crap without knowing anything about it would of course be nothing more than that.. a wild assumption.

 

Choosing the Hero engine may or may not of been the issue.. choosing an unfinished, untested engine and ripping it apart to create the SWTOR engine without the knowledge or support from Hero may well of had lots to do with the issues this game has had / still has.

I seriously hope that the Hero engine is much better than what you and the OP assume because I am waiting as patiently as I can for that first playable Beta for ESO... but I am no expert either, so time will tell I guess, but until then I just choose to not think of SWTOR and Hero Engine in the same sentence and neither do Hero most likely

Edited July 24, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Malastare]

Do I need to understand how to make a meal from scratch to figure out if I dislike the taste.

 

I agree. Wholeheartedly.

 

Feel free to complain about slow loading screens or low performance in crowded areas, or the large amount of maintenance downtime. I've never said you shouldn't complain about it.

 

My issue is that you are spamming your analysis of the cause of problem without having any idea about the actual situation. It would be like me, an admitted novice in the building and maintenance of cars, insisting that some NASCAR driver was doing horribly because he picked the wrong tires. I can see that he did horribly. However, I have zero knowledge that would substantiate the fact that it was the tires that were at fault.

 

Or, to use your own analogy: You can complain about the food tasting bad, but if you have no clue how to cook, it would be silly of you to say: "This food tastes bad. It was because the cook used Black Angus beef instead of Wagyu."

[Cymate]

I support DragonAgeOrgins.

 

So do I, and I spent many years of my life building a game engine from scratch...

 

This thread is not 'futile' imho because it tries to pinpoint or understand the main suspect.

Lag on the fleet, lack of world PVP, removal of chat bubbles are obvious side effects of an engine 'not optimized' (lol) for a modern MMO. Maybe ok for a story driven 1st person title, but for a MMO the critical layer of code is the networking section, like how fast you may send and receive data. And the trade-off in using a rapid prototyping engine is that usually the data structures are real large.

 

Common it's not rocket science, it's computer science

If it lags like hell with 30 toons, the engine is porked.

[Andryah]

I'm looking through the links. I even see some mod's posting rules about the topic. No answer is given. If they goofed up. Fine but TELL US this. People notice they is a problem, ignoring it only makes people start to talk about why they are keeping quiet.

 

It would be evident to any sensible person that your thread is a waste of space and time. Why not ask directly to Bioware, rather then spaming up the forum with a 6 month old ad nauseum topic AGAIN.

 

Personally, I don't see the Hero engine as a problem for an MMO. You cannot compare a single player engine with an MMO engine. Apples and Oranges.

[Saurakk]

It would be evident to any sensible person that your thread is a waste of space and time. Why not ask directly to Bioware, rather then spaming up the forum with a 6 month old ad nauseum topic AGAIN.

 

Personally, I don't see the Hero engine as a problem for an MMO. You cannot compare a single player engine with an MMO engine. Apples and Oranges.

 

This...100% this.

 

Why do you even care? What will you do with the answer?

 

Total waste of time for a stupid rhetorical question where the answer means absolutely nothing.

[Bellumpvp]

Idk a few months ago Id say the Hero Engine is crap, but I can run this game on a 800$ laptop flawlessly. Got textures and shader complexity maxed and honestly the game looks great.

 

Eventually BW will have the shadows figured out, but if your computer can run it wow does it look good.

[Bellumpvp]

So do I, and I spent many years of my life building a game engine from scratch...

 

This thread is not 'futile' imho because it tries to pinpoint or understand the main suspect.

Lag on the fleet, lack of world PVP, removal of chat bubbles are obvious side effects of an engine 'not optimized' (lol) for a modern MMO. Maybe ok for a story driven 1st person title, but for a MMO the critical layer of code is the networking section, like how fast you may send and receive data. And the trade-off in using a rapid prototyping engine is that usually the data structures are real large.

 

Common it's not rocket science, it's computer science

If it lags like hell with 30 toons, the engine is porked.

 

Just give BW time, the game needed work on release and if it wasnt for EA the game wouldnt of been released but we all know EA right?

 

I just feel terrible for those with high end gaming rigs up in the 2000$ range having FPS issues when 800$ rigs are running fine.

[belizar]

Just give BW time, the game needed work on release and if it wasnt for EA the game wouldnt of been released but we all know EA right?

 

I just feel terrible for those with high end gaming rigs up in the 2000$ range having FPS issues when 800$ rigs are running fine.

 

who pays 2k for a pc lol make it yourself save that 1k u think ppl pay

[Bellumpvp]

who pays 2k for a pc lol make it yourself save that 1k u think ppl pay

 

Im talking high end gaming rigs, with brand new parts (Aka released within the year). It will cost in the 2000$ range, no doubt you can get a nice rig for 1000$ but you aint getting "High End Parts".

[Cymate]

Well to be fair my game runs kind of ok with all the video settings to minimum, except in Fleet.

I used a GTX 8800 that was fine with games like COD3 and Battlefront. My card died yesterday night so i'll try a GTX

670, but still... Given enough time BW will rewrite and optimize the code; some unlucky basterds are in the deep coal mine right now grinding to recode this monster, i'm certain of that, and they have all my best regards