Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

Okay maybe not the balance, maybe people just played for a few months and game to the conclusion that it was WoW in Space. Speaking of which, I'm sure quite a few people came here from WoW initially. And from what I've seen of pictures comparing Sith Warrior to a WoW Warrior, they already had a pretty good idea of what the PvP was gonna be like.

 

That last part kind of went on and on in a very round-a-bout way to me. Not exactly sure what you're trying to say there. You said it earlier too. And what I got from it was... Yeah it sounds like you're just denying they lost subs because of perceived imbalance. And everyone just quit playing sorc/ops, and went mara/vangaurd. No, no... They just quit playing the game entirely. Unless you can clarify that... Meh, confused.

 

Ok, let me try to make it more clear. First, we all acknowledge that the sub numbers dropped dramatically with 1.2. Now given that, there are two mutually exclusive claims being made about what happened when 1.2 came out:

 

1) A whole bunch of people playing certain classes (sorc, op, etc.) quit the game entirely because of the nerfs

 

2) A whole bunch of people started playing other classes (maras, PTS) because of the buffs

 

The reason that these are mutually exclusive claims is because we know that the sub numbers dropped dramatically. In other words, all of those new marauders and powertechs can't be attributed to new subs. However, those marauders came from somewhere.

 

Now, if the people playing sorc rerolled marauders, then all makes sense. If, however, they just quit as yourself and the other fellow are claiming, then where did all of these marauders all of a sudden come from?

[Scritchy]

No, that is really how I feel. Please don't claim to be able to read my mind.

You really feel that doing the same thing in two games is vastly different and that is why you hate the second game. Makes sense.

 

 

Ok, let me try to make it more clear. First, we all acknowledge that the sub numbers dropped dramatically with 1.2. Now given that, there are two mutually exclusive claims being made about what happened when 1.2 came out:

 

1) A whole bunch of people playing certain classes (sorc, op, etc.) quit the game entirely because of the nerfs

 

2) A whole bunch of people started playing other classes (maras, PTS) because of the buffs

 

The reason that these are mutually exclusive claims is because we know that the sub numbers dropped dramatically. In other words, all of those new marauders and powertechs can't be attributed to new subs. However, those marauders came from somewhere.

 

Now, if the people playing sorc rerolled marauders, then all makes sense. If, however, they just quit as yourself and the other fellow are claiming, then where did all of these marauders all of a sudden come from?

Why do the number of new marauders have to equal the number of lost sorcs? A ton of people playing sorcs and operatives quit, a bunch rerolled. It isn't that hard to figure out.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Scritchy

[Skolops]

Ok, let's get one thing straight first. We're talking about a video game not civil rights or anything even close to that. This is the second time you have made assumptions about how I feel about things outside of a video game and they are borderline insulting if not downright so. I'm glad you have these ideas on morality and it's good to know people do but this is about a video game and not civil liberties or freeing people from tyranny or oppresion. Your heart might be in a good place but it seems like you're taking video games a little too seriously. If we were discussing ethics and morality of things that actually affect how people live their lives I would probably be approaching it with a different mindset but this is only a video game.

 

Secondly, one of the things I have pointed out that you seem to be missing that people with a good amount of wisdom know is that when it comes to opinions there is in non-extreme cases no real right or wrong. Yes, you have some education and a vocabulary but I'm going to assume, as you have done so with me, that you are most likely in your early twenties or late teens (at the very least you have the mentality of one) and still have that "I know the answers to life's problems" mentality. Ask anyone above the age of 30 who acts like it and they will tell you that they look back on how they acted at that age and realize they didn't and don't know jack.

 

As I said, both arguments on this subject have validity because it is backed by reasoning coming from both parties. You seem to be of the mentality of "If you disagree with me you're wrong" and have even gone so far as to tell me my line of thinking is leading the destruction of the human race and morally and intellectually bankrupt. Well let me respond, your line of "anyone who doesn't agree with me is morally/ethically wrong" is the same type of thinking that leads to fundamentalist and fanatics commiting atrocities. Here's another thing, I work in education. I work to help people to learn so they can go on and find a better way of life through having better chances because of a college education. I work with socialist groups to work towards ending the inequities created by capitalism and I'm staunch supporter LBGT rights and have stood in defense of them against oppression. You're arguing for moral integrity of competition for a video game and you're not even doing it on that game's forum; and you seriously have the gall to call me morally and intellectually bankrupt? Question to answer to yourself: How much have you done to help real people with real problems outside of a video game?

 

1) I have never assumed either in my mind and especially in anything[ I have written what your age is.

 

2) I am not in my "teens or early twenties."

 

3) I work in education and have spent my life doing plenty to help others

 

4) I called the philosophy that your posts seem to be based on morally lacking and intellectually bankrupt, not you

 

5) None of this is remotely relevant to the topic, and, frankly, is just a bunch of ad hominem.

 

My only point is that after going back and forth on this issue a few times it has become apparent that we will not be able to come to an agreement about the particular game issue we have been discussing without first coming to an agreement on the more general worldview that we hold to - something which is really not going to happen on a video game forum.

 

Whether a video game is as important as helping a homeless person is really not relevant. What is relevant is that, even with one of these items fairly important and the other relatively unimportant, the way we each view them is still based and dependent upon out greater worldview - a worldview which we do not share and which is an obstacle to our coming to an agreement on this point. Given that, the best course of action is to agree to disagree and so spend our time on more important things like helping others.

[Skolops]

You really feel that doing the same thing in two games is vastly different and that is why you hate the second game. Makes sense.

 

On this particular issue we are discussing right now, I don't think they are the same. In TOR, there are a whole bunch of ways that my character sitting guarding a node in Novarre Coast is the same/connected to the character I spent 100s of hours on. It seems that in GW2, the cosmetics are about the ONLY thing connected, and so to me TOR wins out in the very important department of feeling an investment in your character.

 

Why do the number of new marauders have to equal the number of lost sorcs? A ton of people playing sorcs and operatives quit, a bunch rerolled. It isn't that hard to figure out.

 

You're quite right: they don't have to be equal. It's entirely possible that you had something like 60% of the sorcs quit, 20% kept playing sorc, 20% kept playing but rolled a new class.

 

The thing I was disagreeing with is that others seemed to be making the claim - or at least rather strongly implying - that essentially all of the sorcs who stopped playing sorc, also quit the game.

[Scritchy]

On this particular issue we are discussing right now, I don't think they are the same. In TOR, there are a whole bunch of ways that my character sitting guarding a node in Novarre Coast is the same/connected to the character I spent 100s of hours on. It seems that in GW2, the cosmetics are about the ONLY thing connected, and so to me TOR wins out in the very important department of feeling an investment in your character.

What is preventing you from leveling your PVP character up to 80 to get that emotional investment? Nothing? So, there is no difference unless you want there to be.

 

You're quite right: they don't have to be equal. It's entirely possible that you had something like 60% of the sorcs quit, 20% kept playing sorc, 20% kept playing but rolled a new class.

 

The thing I was disagreeing with is that others seemed to be making the claim - or at least rather strongly implying - that essentially all of the sorcs who stopped playing sorc, also quit the game.

It is as silly thinking that balance was the only reason people quit as it is thinking 6-month subs being up two months early was the reason.

[Skolops]

What is preventing you from leveling your PVP character up to 80 to get that emotional investment? Nothing? So, there is no difference unless you want there to be.

 

The huge difference is that the only thing you can possibly actually share between the PvP and non PvP character in GW2 is the cosmetics - if even that. In TOR, there are a lot of other things.

 

Completely aside from that, though, is a more important point which I already explained but I will repeat here. We, as human beings, draw a certain sense of fulfillment from accomplishing things through our efforts. I feel good about a deck that I myself built moreso than one that someone else built. In TOR, I feel good about my valor 80 character with all of the crew skills, the outfits, the titles, and even the reputation I have built.

 

In the sPvP of GW2, even if I spend 2000 hours leveling and doing all manner of other things with that character, when I load into a PvP match, I will always know that all of that work - other than to get whatever PvP clothes I may have on - was completely meaningless because I could have the very same character had I simply put no time in and entered after character creation. The whole thing will really make me feel like, even if I do put time into the character, it didn't actually accomplish anything.

 

Look, Scritchy, like I said I am excited about GW2 and I look forward to trying it out. There are a lot of cool/fun things I see in it. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed or shouldn't also point out where I see it as bad or lacking. You act as if one either has to like the entire game or they're somehow dishonest, have bad taste, or are some other form of negative.

 

 

It is as silly thinking that balance was the only reason people quit as it is thinking 6-month subs being up two months early was the reason.

 

When 1.2 came out, general chat and these forms were FULL of people saying that BECAUSE of 1.2, they were choosing not the renew their 6 month subs. The fact that the renewal date wasn't for 2 months isn't relevant to whether or not 1.2 led people not to renew.

[WraitheDarkbane]

the best course of action is to agree to disagree and so spend our time on more important things like helping others.

 

I completely agree and I'm glad we can come to a point of agreement on this.

 

Yes, we do have differing viewpoints on the subject at hand and is based on our worldviews. As I stated I feel capitalism is unequiable because of a resource, i. money. This leads me to see the inequity in in the system that has tiered mechanical advantages that are gained through another resource, ie. time. In both instances some have more of it than another and use it to lord over others. You have a different viewpoint but it doesn't make either person wrong or right. I do think we both have good hearts but we're probably educated in two very different areas. Words you have used lead me to believe that you are probably educated in some area of Liberal Arts, possibly even Philosophy. Where as my field of education is in mathematics. What I'm saying is we're going to see things differently. Also, I replied as I did because twice your wording lead me to feeling attacked. Either way, we agree to disagree and go on with our lives. Best of luck to you in your endeavours.

[Skolops]

I completely agree and I'm glad we can come to a point of agreement on this.

 

Yes, we do have differing viewpoints on the subject at hand and is based on our worldviews. As I stated I feel capitalism is unequiable because of a resource, i. money. This leads me to see the inequity in in the system that has tiered mechanical advantages that are gained through another resource, ie. time. In both instances some have more of it than another and use it to lord over others. You have a different viewpoint but it doesn't make either person wrong or right. I do think we both have good hearts but we're probably educated in two very different areas. Words you have used lead me to believe that you are probably educated in some area of Liberal Arts, possibly even Philosophy. Where as my field of education is in mathematics. What I'm saying is we're going to see things differently. Also, I replied as I did because twice your wording lead me to feeling attacked. Either way, we agree to disagree and go on with our lives. Best of luck to you in your endeavours.

 

I apologize if I made you feel attacked; I try to come across as neutrally as possible in "tone" on the internet precisely because of how a lack of a real vocal tone makes it easy to sound aggressive. Ultimately, I think that anytime someone disagrees with a person on the internet it tends to feel like an attack, even if they have the nicest of attitudes. I am educated in primarily math with a lot of philosophy on top of that.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Skolops

[Scritchy]

The huge difference is that the only thing you can possibly actually share between the PvP and non PvP character in GW2 is the cosmetics - if even that. In TOR, there are a lot of other things.

 

Completely aside from that, though, is a more important point which I already explained but I will repeat here. We, as human beings, draw a certain sense of fulfillment from accomplishing things through our efforts. I feel good about a deck that I myself built moreso than one that someone else built. In TOR, I feel good about my valor 80 character with all of the crew skills, the outfits, the titles, and even the reputation I have built.

If you level up, you unlock all the skills and everything that are available in sPVP. The only difference is you put on different clothes, much like in TOR when you have a PVP and a PVE set. The only difference is, it is changed for you, you don't get roflstomped if you forget to swap. If you go through PVE, there is absolutely nothing different from your character in PVE or PVP other than your outfit.

[heechJunzi]

I have very mixed feelings about this. It'll be interesting to see how it works out.

 

I've never really done a progression MMO before, and I have to say... the climb looked incredibly daunting when I first started out on PvP gear. But on many occasions, I literally "forced" myself into SWTOR even when I otherwise wasn't in the mood to play, just in order to finish my dailies/weeklies and get those extra comms.... So, absolutely, the gear progression increased my level of play + overall addiction to the game.

 

So, the question becomes... will GW2 be so damn entertaining that it'll attract as many players, even without that extra level of addiction?

[Skolops]

If you level up, you unlock all the skills and everything that are available in sPVP. The only difference is you put on different clothes, much like in TOR when you have a PVP and a PVE set. The only difference is, it is changed for you, you don't get roflstomped if you forget to swap. If you go through PVE, there is absolutely nothing different from your character in PVE or PVP other than your outfit.

 

The difference is that I didn't need to go through all of that PvE. If I had just made a character and entered PvP right away, I would be in the same place. If you plan to play for only or primarily sPvP, it devalues every bit of time and work you put into your character and makes you feel like its a waste. At least it would for me, because I value and get a sense of accomplishment from what I do to get my high level character to where he is.

 

In other words, I don't WANT to have a free level 80 with all the bells and whistles, I want to have to work for it, but, even if I DO work for it, ultimately it won't matter because when I'm all done, the character waiting for me in the PvP lobby will be the same thing that was waiting for me had I skipped all of that work.

[Scritchy]

The difference is that I didn't need to go through all of that PvE. If I had just made a character and entered PvP right away, I would be in the same place. If you plan to play for only or primarily sPvP, it devalues every bit of time and work you put into your character and makes you feel like its a waste. At least it would for me, because I value and get a sense of accomplishment from what I do to get my high level character to where he is.

 

In other words, I don't WANT to have a free level 80 with all the bells and whistles, I want to have to work for it, but, even if I DO work for it, ultimately it won't matter because when I'm all done, the character waiting for me in the PvP lobby will be the same thing that was waiting for me had I skipped all of that work.

So the choice of not having to do PVE if you don't want and competitive PVP instead of a gear grind is bad?

[Balinus]

I find lvl 50 pvp so balanced......ppl that says that this game need to balance pvp, in my opnion, it is more a l2p issue....

[Skolops]

So the choice of not having to do PVE if you don't want and competitive PVP instead of a gear grind is bad?

 

For me, it is, because it means that I won't have that sense of accomplishment from getting my character to where he is. Look at my signature and see all of my characters... as each one hits 50, and hits BM, and hits WH gear, that adds to my enjoyment in playing that character, because when I am in a warzone with a toon its the reward and fruits of something that I personally did. I accomplished it.

 

Now sure, when I am on the winning side in GW2 that's something, too, and that's great! However, there will also be a lot of emptiness in knowing that the character I'm playing with is basically just something off of a shelf that anyone could have picked up and used. It's the difference between reaching into the refrigerator for some store bought BBQ sauce and reaching in for the BBQ sauce that I made. It's just a sense of having done something, having accomplished something.

 

Now before anyone says it, sure - I have plenty of real world, more meaningful accomplishments. This isn't a case of trying to make a game into a substitute for a failure at life or anything like that. It's really just that in whatever I do - and really in whatever any human being does - there is something nice about feeling like you've accomplished it through your own efforts, and it helps to make us feel connections to those things. The man who has a deck installed just uses it, but the man whose built it himself admires it in the sunset, or rubs his hand along the banister. The man who has bought a house sells it when the market is right, but the man who has built his own house has a hard time with even the thought of selling it.

 

GW2 is, to me, a game for so much of our culture - instant, microwave style reward, no effort, nothing earned everything given for free, etc. etc. It might be fun for a while, but it's just not going to be fulfilling in the way a good MMO can be.

[heechJunzi]

I will say the gear progression requirements on SWTOR has really led me into doing a lot of things I normally wouldn't have thought I was interested in...

 

For example, I had no plans/interest in doing raids or even flash-points. I made it to level 50 having done ... well, Esseles, and nothing else. But after being tempted with BH comms to use the group finder, I've used it a number of times and tried the various flash-points available. And to be honest, they're fun.

 

Oh, and crafting. I had zero interest in crafting, and frankly didn't even understand it. But after learning about some of the perks of biochem, I started from scratch... and put in quite a few hours max'ing out my crew skills. Again, if I wasn't "motivated" to do so by game design, I know I wouldn't have done any of that.

 

But on the other hand... I'm not ready to dismiss the GW2 model as not working. Frankly, proof will be in the pudding. I (and a lot of other people) will try it out... and it'll either be fascinating + a blast, or it won't be.

[Necrosov]

For me, it is, because it means that I won't have that sense of accomplishment from getting my character to where he is. Look at my signature and see all of my characters... as each one hits 50, and hits BM, and hits WH gear, that adds to my enjoyment in playing that character, because when I am in a warzone with a toon its the reward and fruits of something that I personally did. I accomplished it.

 

Now sure, when I am on the winning side in GW2 that's something, too, and that's great! However, there will also be a lot of emptiness in knowing that the character I'm playing with is basically just something off of a shelf that anyone could have picked up and used. It's the difference between reaching into the refrigerator for some store bought BBQ sauce and reaching in for the BBQ sauce that I made. It's just a sense of having done something, having accomplished something.

 

Now before anyone says it, sure - I have plenty of real world, more meaningful accomplishments. This isn't a case of trying to make a game into a substitute for a failure at life or anything like that. It's really just that in whatever I do - and really in whatever any human being does - there is something nice about feeling like you've accomplished it through your own efforts, and it helps to make us feel connections to those things. The man who has a deck installed just uses it, but the man whose built it himself admires it in the sunset, or rubs his hand along the banister. The man who has bought a house sells it when the market is right, but the man who has built his own house has a hard time with even the thought of selling it.

 

GW2 is, to me, a game for so much of our culture - instant, microwave style reward, no effort, nothing earned everything given for free, etc. etc. It might be fun for a while, but it's just not going to be fulfilling in the way a good MMO can be.

 

Fair enough. But I myself have played enough of these "second job" MMO's throughout the years and just want to get into the game and have fun. I already WORK hard at my job everyday. I am not a kid any more and I can't just neglect the tons of responsibilities I have as an adult. For me the sense of having done something and accomplished something is honing my PvP skills and kicking the most butt through use of my gamer skills, knowledge, tactics, and strategy. The accomplishment to me is becoming the best player because of my skill - not because I raid/grind for the best gear to get the one up on somebody. I want an even playing ground or as close to that as it's going to get. I like how GW2 does this. The reason they do it this way is because their goal is to make it an E-sport. I like their PvP much better and find it more rewarding.

[Skolops]

Fair enough. But I myself have played enough of these "second job" MMO's throughout the years and just want to get into the game and have fun. I already WORK hard at my job everyday. I am not a kid any more and I can't just neglect the tons of responsibilities I have as an adult. For me the sense of having done something and accomplished something is honing my PvP skills and kicking the most butt through use of my gamer skills, knowledge, tactics, and strategy. The accomplishment to me is becoming the best player because of my skill - not because I raid/grind for the best gear to get the one up on somebody. I want an even playing ground or as close to that as it's going to get. I like how GW2 does this. The reason they do it this way is because their goal is to make it an E-sport. I like their PvP much better and find it more rewarding.

 

I can understand that and I have responsibilities, too. I would just rather there be SOMEwhat more of a connection between the work I put in in building the character and the final product. Even in a game like TOR or WoW where there is a lot put into building the character, there is also the accomplishment of practicing and getting better.

 

I just feel like there's TOO MUCH of a disconnect in the GW2 system. I honestly couldn't say what would be a good middle ground, I just think I'd like it much better if there were.

[heechJunzi]

One point to be made about the progression-free model of games like guild wars 2.... Fully half of the player base will, by definition, be below average. What motivates them to log in if their skills are simply inferior?

 

In a progression MMO, at least you can hide behind the crutch of better gear.

[Necrosov]

One point to be made about the progression-free model of games like guild wars 2.... Fully half of the player base will, by definition, be below average. What motivates them to log in if their skills are simply inferior?

 

In a progression MMO, at least you can hide behind the crutch of better gear.

 

Probably the same thing that makes them keep playing COD, BF3 or whatever similar game. There is plenty of other things to do in the game aside from the SPvP which will be the most competitive. WvWvW is less about personal skill but more about teamwork, communication, strategy, and tactics - you don't have to be the best player to make a impact.

[heechJunzi]

Probably the same thing that makes them keep playing COD, BF3 or whatever similar game. There is plenty of other things to do in the game aside from the SPvP which will be the most competitive. WvWvW is less about personal skill but more about teamwork, communication, strategy, and tactics - you don't have to be the best player to make a impact.

That makes sense to me. Which suggests the natural competition for GW2 might not be SWTOR, but rather the state-less/character-less FPS out there.

[Scritchy]

One point to be made about the progression-free model of games like guild wars 2.... Fully half of the player base will, by definition, be below average. What motivates them to log in if their skills are simply inferior?

 

In a progression MMO, at least you can hide behind the crutch of better gear.

Just because sPVP isn't relying on progression doesn't me there isn't some in other aspects of the game. The folks that don't want to do any PVP can still solo or group up and go kill things. It still has all the traditional stuff you can do in a MMO.

[Skolops]

Just because sPVP isn't relying on progression doesn't me there isn't some in other aspects of the game. The folks that don't want to do any PVP can still solo or group up and go kill things. It still has all the traditional stuff you can do in a MMO.

 

You're kindof dancing around or missing the point here. The point wasn't about people who like to PvE or whatever the case may be. It was about whether people who play the game because they like PvP will be motivated to log in without some kind of carrot on a stick.

[Scritchy]

You're kindof dancing around or missing the point here. The point wasn't about people who like to PvE or whatever the case may be. It was about whether people who play the game because they like PvP will be motivated to log in without some kind of carrot on a stick.

The carrot on the stick are the titles, tournaments and beating people when it isn't gear vs gear.

[Skolops]

The carrot on the stick are the titles, tournaments and beating people when it isn't gear vs gear.

 

Those aren't the kinds of carrots on sticks that motivate people, though. As I've said before, psychologists have actually studied how MMOs addictive qualities keep people playing. The gear progression is a HUGE part of it.

 

Now titles and all of that are nice, but they just aren't the same thing and will appeal to a far, far smaller portion of the community. In particular, they apply to completionists and the kinds of people who like Xbox Achievements and that kind of thing, There's nothing wrong with that at all, if they like it. It's just not the kind of thing that motivates large portions of the population in the way gear progressions do.

 

Moreover, what you're suggesting actually supports his point. The players who are bad or average will be nowhere NEAR tournaments or those titles. They need something to go after that they can get win or lose. It sounds silly, but its a HUGE part of retaining people in an MMO.

[Scritchy]

Those aren't the kinds of carrots on sticks that motivate people, though. As I've said before, psychologists have actually studied how MMOs addictive qualities keep people playing. The gear progression is a HUGE part of it.

If that was true, Aion would have retained a lot more subs than it did since gear progression was a HUGE part of the game.