Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

Not a fanboy, but pointing out your inconsistencies. So far you have said that GW2 being overly instanced was a primary thing in all the reviews you read. But then, lack of a gear grind is the biggest concern. And now, lack of a rating system is the biggest concern.

 

So which is it?

 

Quoting myself: "That's like matching people in TOR based on valor. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Don't try to win this one - the fact that there's no skill-based matchmaking is one of the negative items in most of the reviews."

 

Did I call it the "biggest?" No. Did I call it the "primary" negative remark? No. I said it was A negative remark. One out of some number of them. I think you'll find that if you look through the previous posts to which you are referring, I did not call the other items "the biggest" or "the worst" or use any other such language.

[Scritchy]

Quoting myself: "That's like matching people in TOR based on valor. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Don't try to win this one - the fact that there's no skill-based matchmaking is one of the negative items in most of the reviews."

 

Did I call it the "biggest?" No. Did I call it the "primary" negative remark? No. I said it was A negative remark. One out of some number of them. I think you'll find that if you look through the previous posts to which you are referring, I did not call the other items "the biggest" or "the worst" or use any other such language.

 

Also, have you played the GW2 beta? (That's a genuine question, not meant as a "gotcha!" question). One of the primary negatives from the reviews I have read is that it is very, very instanced - moreso than TOR is. I'm curious what someone who has played the beta thinks about this.

How about this one?

 

Edit: Still can't find any reviews that claim it is more instanced that TOR, though.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Scritchy

[Necrosov]

That's like matching people in TOR based on valor. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Don't try to win this one - the fact that there's no skill-based matchmaking is one of the negative items in most of the reviews.

 

Aside from your trolling - That's the best system you're going to get within the mechanics of the game. You can't have a perfect system here. There is no way to purely match make by skill ( which is relative ), The system goes by teaming you up based on experience on your characters experience. If you stand out and do better than you will get more glory points and move on to more experienced opponents.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Necrosov

[Skolops]

How about this one?

 

Edit: Still can't find any reviews that claim it is more instanced that TOR, though.

 

"One of the primary."

 

That hardly excludes listing other common items, nor even other "primary" items. The point is, I've seen several articles/blogs/videos/reviews which say, "Gee this is a great game, now here are the negatives..." and listing the matchmaking as a negative.

[Skolops]

Aside from your trolling - That's the best system you're going to get within the mechanics of the game. You can't have a perfect system here. There is no way to purely match make by skill ( which is relative ), The system goes by teaming you up based on experience on your characters experience. If you stand out and do better than you will get more glory points and move on to more experienced opponents.

 

Not really, no. The player who loses EVERY match he has ever played will still get to valor 100 at some point. The absolutely awful player who is a complete liability to his team will still get as much glory as some of the good players eventually - especially considering glory doesn't help you get better gear and give you any kind of additional help moving up.

 

Heck, even a game like LoL has matchmaking based on skill. Why can't GW2 do it? The game may end up being good, but that's no excuse to overlook it's failings.

[Necrosov]

How about this one?

 

Edit: Still can't find any reviews that claim it is more instanced that TOR, though.

 

Because it's not. I would say TOR does have more instancing because of thing like space docks and personal star-ships but they both are pretty close.

[Skolops]

Because it's not. I would say TOR does have more instancing because of thing like space docks and personal star-ships but they both are pretty close.

 

Alright, if you recall I said I had seen reviews saying it was too instanced and if I recall I said something along the lines of "some have even said its worse than TOR." Whether I worded it well or not, this is the reality of it: I have seen instancing discussed in several places, and a comparison to TOR in one video review.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Skolops

[Necrosov]

Heck, even a game like LoL has matchmaking based on skill. Why can't GW2 do it? The game may end up being good, but that's no excuse to overlook it's failings.

 

HAHAHA! Yeah and there are many people who will disagree with you on that one! The matchmaking system doesnt care about how good you are. It cares about you having close to 50% win/loss. Just google " LOL matchmaking" and there is lots of negativity on Riots system . Like I said - you can't have a perfect system.

[Necrosov]

Alright, if you recall I said I had seen reviews saying it was too instanced and if I recall I said something along the lines of "some have even said its worse than TOR." Whether I worded it well or not, this is the reality of it: I have seen instancing discussed in several places, and a comparison to TOR in one video review.

 

I was just agreeing with the guy I quoted - Not trying to attack/ start another pointless argument with you okay? Relax.

[Skolops]

I was just agreeing with the guy I quoted - Not trying to attack/ start another pointless argument with you okay? Relax.

 

I was responding to the other guy more than you, actually. You seem to be able to tell the difference between "the biggest" and "one of."

[fungihoujo]

HAHAHA! Yeah and there are many people who will disagree with you on that one! The matchmaking system doesnt care about how good you are. It cares about you having close to 50% win/loss. Just google " LOL matchmaking" and there is lots of negativity on Riots system . Like I said - you can't have a perfect system.

 

The system works very well outside of the middle rankings actually- the 'problem' with 1000-1400 ELO is that all new players start at 1200, so you get all sorts of great and terrible players in that range- meaning your ranking can tank based on teammates or be brought up- once you get above or below that range though the rankings work as intended... and regardless, you at least get variety- you have as much chance to have a bad match as a great match, and your chances on a relatively even match are pretty good in the 1200 range- and frankly, having a high or low rating matters far less than having a fun, equal game to me and most players. Furthermore- for team play it works because a good team will win more, and fight teams close in ranking- unlike SWTOR's where teams with 2800 will fight teams that are new or haven't even been ranked at all.

 

As for GW2- if they're smart they won't have rankings right away- you need some time at launch to balance, to let players get used to classes before you start the tournament season up.

 

The important thing isn't having a perfect system- it's having a better one than TOR's where amazing players with 100+ win streaks get in fights against teams who are 5 and 30. Squash matches shouldn't be a part of competitive pvp because it means that the system is clearly not remotely competitive.

[Scritchy]

I was responding to the other guy more than you, actually. You seem to be able to tell the difference between "the biggest" and "one of."

Still waiting for the links to the reviews claiming GW2 is the least bit instanced.

[Skolops]

Still waiting for the links to the reviews claiming GW2 is the least bit instanced.

 

I'm still waiting for a response on my thought that TOR feels more skill based because in GW2 the abilities never change or buff based on traits, proc, or order of cast. (Which, btw, I am happy to be corrected on with an example, which is the primary reason I asked the question.)

Edited August 3, 2012 by Skolops

[Necrosov]

The system works very well outside of the middle rankings actually- the 'problem' with 1000-1400 ELO is that all new players start at 1200, so you get all sorts of great and terrible players in that range- meaning your ranking can tank based on teammates or be brought up- once you get above or below that range though the rankings work as intended... and regardless, you at least get variety- you have as much chance to have a bad match as a great match, and your chances on a relatively even match are pretty good in the 1200 range- and frankly, having a high or low rating matters far less than having a fun, equal game to me and most players. Furthermore- for team play it works because a good team will win more, and fight teams close in ranking- unlike SWTOR's where teams with 2800 will fight teams that are new or haven't even been ranked at all.

 

As for GW2- if they're smart they won't have rankings right away- you need some time at launch to balance, to let players get used to classes before you start the tournament season up.

 

The important thing isn't having a perfect system- it's having a better one than TOR's where amazing players with 100+ win streaks get in fights against teams who are 5 and 30. Squash matches shouldn't be a part of competitive pvp because it means that the system is clearly not remotely competitive.

 

Then a person wanting a challenge should join the other sPvP option - Tournament mode.

 

"Tournaments are the more organized side of structured PvP. Talk to the tournament master to join. Tournament play is always 5v5 and matches take place on the same maps that are used for hot join play. Tournaments run with varying frequency, and different reward levels allow some players to get their feet wet in the smaller tournaments while more-organized teams battle it out in the larger tournaments.

 

Each tournament pits eight teams of five players against each other. Teams that excel during the three-round, single-elimination tournament are rewarded with tournament chests full of valuable loot.

 

Tournaments come in the following flavors:

 

Pickup: single-elimination tournaments wait for 8 teams to join before starting. This tournament has 3 rounds of eliminations, with winners receiving qualifier points.

Monthly: Require an amount of qualifier points from the pickup tournaments to join.

Yearly: These grand tournaments feature the winners from the monthly tournaments slugging it out for the right to call themselves the best PvP players of the year.

Player-Run: customized by players, these tournaments allow for great flexibility and unique bragging rights."

 

They got something for everybody

[Necrosov]

I'm still waiting for a response on my thought that TOR feels more skill based because in GW2 the abilities never change or buff based on traits, proc, or order of cast. (Which, btw, I am happy to be corrected on with an example, which is the primary reason I asked the question.)

 

Hmm, I don't quite get what your trying to say here because abilities change based on different weapons you're using and you swap between 2 sets of weapons ( there is a good amount of weapon combos too ) and you can also change your utility abilities on the fly as long as they are off cool down really easily. Abilities are buffed by traits and gear too. Order of cast does make a difference and does make other abilities hit harder ( Via Conditions ) - at least for the class I was playing. Does one game take more skill than the other? That's a matter of opinion either way. Yes, GW2 does have instancing but no more than TOR does.

 

Edit: If you want an example you can look that up pretty easy yourself on the web by looking at the different class abilities. You can also combo your abilities to do special attacks but the class I played ( necro ) didn't really have anything spectacular and many people aren't that good yet to set up combos between the classes.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Necrosov

[Fyda]

I'm still waiting for a response on my thought that TOR feels more skill based because in GW2 the abilities never change or buff based on traits, proc, or order of cast. (Which, btw, I am happy to be corrected on with an example, which is the primary reason I asked the question.)

 

Just look at this:

It's just the dodge mechanism.

[Necrosov]

Just look at this:

It's just the dodge mechanism.

 

Haha I watched this the other day - got it bookmarked. Good watch and shows the dodge mechanic off nicely.

[Skolops]

Hmm, I don't quite get what your trying to say here because abilities change based on different weapons you're using and you swap between 2 sets of weapons ( there is a good amount of weapon combos too ) and you can also change your utility abilities on the fly as long as they are off cool down really easily. Abilities are buffed by traits and gear too. Order of cast does make a difference and does make other abilities hit harder ( Via Conditions ) - at least for the class I was playing. Does one game take more skill than the other? That's a matter of opinion either way. Yes, GW2 does have instancing but no more than TOR does.

 

Edit: If you want an example you can look that up pretty easy yourself on the web by looking at the different class abilities. You can also combo your abilities to do special attacks but the class I played ( necro ) didn't really have anything spectacular and many people aren't that good yet to set up combos between the classes.

 

I don't care that much about instancing. I only brought it up in the first place in response to something.

 

What I mean by my question is this: If I play an Infiltration Shadow, every use of Clairvoyant Strike makes my next Project do 15% more damage, stacking up to twice. This means that my goal in battle is to get two CSs off and then a Project ( to make it simple). If I play an Assault Vanguard, every Ion pulse has a 45% chance to give me a free High Impact Bolt, so I use that until the free bolt procs. A Focus Guardian wants to get 4 stacks of Singularity, which builds via different abilities such as Force Stasis.

 

Now, on the other side, when I'm against these other classes, I want to do certain things based on how they work. This means staying out of range of Ion Pulse and interrupting Force Stasis, or popping defenses when I have had two Clairvoyant Strikes used on me.

 

Now, being interested in the Ranger class in GW2, I've looked into it a bit and it seems like regardless of what rotation I use, each attack will do basically the same thing every time. I've seen similarities with other classes but haven't as of yet been able to find anything closer to what I described from TOR. I was hoping someone could either confirm that combat in GW2 doesn't have anything like this, or provide me an example of where it does so I can take a look at it.

[Necrosov]

Ugh I hit back button it reposted Edited August 3, 2012 by Necrosov

[fungihoujo]

Don't get what you mean about order of cast- the abilities all mean something in GW2, and there isn't always a 'must do in this way rotation', partly due to things like the dodge mechanism.... having a predictable rotation is just asking to get evaded in GW2.

 

As for buffing up abilities- no, there's no talent tree, you just pick certain abilities you want- which does include signets which have passive abilities, short term buffs, and abilities that work well together (ie- an ability that does X more damage based on conditions an enemy has works well for a heavy condition build) or that buff pets up for the mesmer/ranger.

 

Not to mention combining your spells with ally spells.

 

Frankly- all in all it'll be more varied than spamming tracer missile or force lightning.

[marcusbjol]

Having been watching a lot more videos, it still does seem to me that TOR has more of a mental side and a skill to it in some ways.

 

For example, many of the classes in TOR are set up so that your goal is to build up X stacks of X buff, or do a particular rotation to set up a given proc, or whatever the case may be. You also need to find a way to do this in the dynamic environment of a warzone, so you can't actually just go through your rotation mechanically but find a way to get your stacks and procs while dealing with what the enemy is doing.

 

Meanwhile, you're also trying to prevent your enemies from building their stacks and activating their procs, along with recognizing when they have them and defending appropriately.

 

Now in GW2, I just see abilities on a bar which are really disconnected from one another. Through the trait system, you are able to proc certain stat gains or "independent" states/conditions (e.g., swiftness) by using your abilities, but I haven't seen any way in which the abilities themselves "change" or become buffed or whatnot based on how, when, or in what order you execute them. For example, when facing a Rage Juggernaut you need to do your best to prevent him from building up his 4 stacks to set up his smash, and he is trying to do that. When I watch these videos and look at skill calculators for GW2, it looks far simpler than this.

 

I quite sincerely say, correct me (with an example or two) if I am wrong.

 

I also find that in virtually every single video of the sPvP I've found, it's nothing more than a bunch of zerging from one point to the other. I don't even see teams trying to hold points - they capture them, and then almost every time the entire team leaves to go somewhere else. If that is the style of PvP that wins in GW2, it's another negative in my book. Thoughts?

 

Play the game.

 

Watching vids does not convey how the game plays. Fields are important, as are selecting the correct weapon combos (I started my guardian with a scepter/focus and sword/shield at first, thinking those were good sets... much better to have scepter/shield and sword/fire IMO... for WvWvW... scepter/shield and 2H sword).

 

The constant Zergfests you see are more likely the effect of it being a one off event (meaning Temp toons) and enjoying how the toons play (guarding does not do that). Any why would one watch a vid of someone guarding? Cant imagine anyone wanting to see a vid of me guarding W in an Alderan match. To assume everyone is zerging by watching interesting vids...

 

If a sense of accomplishment sought, craft/grind some PvE gear, use a Transmutation Stone to take that look in to sPvP. WvWvW you keep your clothes. For me, pulling out my tricked out toon to PvP and stomping some undergeared enemies... feels lame.

 

Instancing is few and far between actually as only the personal story line is. SWToR has many more instanced areas in comparison (BH Dailies has 2?, GW2 equivalent would not have any).

 

Play the game.

 

Speaking of psychological effects of MMOs (referring to the gear treadmill), I would like to point out another: "Walk into a room and look around the room for 30 seconds and become aware of the brown items in the room. Now close your eyes and start discussing the items that you recall that are blue. This is a hard task to accomplish. Because the concentration was on the brown items, it is hard to remember anything else." Yes, that is from Tony Robbins. We, as thinking being find what we look for. Having looked for all the flaws in the game before playing it, if any of those flaws exist, they STAND OUT when we finally do play it.

 

One of the greatest things about the game, IMHO, is the content scaling. Even tho the implementation sounds bad (essentially de-levels the toon to match the area, and upscales rewards to your current level), it renders all content relevant (in as much as you want to do it)... forever. In SWToR... I went from hitting 50 with 15k hps on my Vanguard tank to tanking SM EV that day. HM FPs were worthless. As I did not play WoW till the end of TBC, I missed most TBC heroics and raids (barely remember the 2 I did). The end result... if you want to play your 65th level toon with your friend/guildy that is 2nd level, you can (and still gain XP and drops for you).

 

What we have is an argument between those who have played the game and those who have researched it. An apt analogy would be someone who has read a book from Home Depot about electrical wiring for the home arguing with an experienced Electrician.

 

For me, I bought GW2 sight unscene at the start of BW1 and really enjoyed it as I did with BW2. I was stupidly obsessive with BW3 (Prolly 35 hrs played on that one). And it ruined SWToR for me. I am tired keeping my Tank, DPS, and Healer raid/PvP ready (prolly better said current). And yes, I did that with 3 toons on WoW, Rift and SWToR. If I have to do chores (may I NEVER do a BH daily again), I would rather do dishes, mow the yard, work the horses... but I see that as a chore.

 

Its too bad you missed the Beta Weekends (great advertising on their part). The best we can offer is:

 

Play the Game.

[Skolops]

Play the game.

 

Watching vids does not convey how the game plays. Fields are important, as are selecting the correct weapon combos (I started my guardian with a scepter/focus and sword/shield at first, thinking those were good sets... much better to have scepter/shield and sword/fire IMO... for WvWvW... scepter/shield and 2H sword).

 

The constant Zergfests you see are more likely the effect of it being a one off event (meaning Temp toons) and enjoying how the toons play (guarding does not do that). Any why would one watch a vid of someone guarding? Cant imagine anyone wanting to see a vid of me guarding W in an Alderan match. To assume everyone is zerging by watching interesting vids...

 

If a sense of accomplishment sought, craft/grind some PvE gear, use a Transmutation Stone to take that look in to sPvP. WvWvW you keep your clothes. For me, pulling out my tricked out toon to PvP and stomping some undergeared enemies... feels lame.

 

This really misses my whole point, but I still want to correct you: you cannot transmute PvE -> PvP gear or vice versa.

 

Instancing is few and far between actually as only the personal story line is. SWToR has many more instanced areas in comparison (BH Dailies has 2?, GW2 equivalent would not have any).

 

Play the game.

 

Speaking of psychological effects of MMOs (referring to the gear treadmill), I would like to point out another: "Walk into a room and look around the room for 30 seconds and become aware of the brown items in the room. Now close your eyes and start discussing the items that you recall that are blue. This is a hard task to accomplish. Because the concentration was on the brown items, it is hard to remember anything else." Yes, that is from Tony Robbins. We, as thinking being find what we look for. Having looked for all the flaws in the game before playing it, if any of those flaws exist, they STAND OUT when we finally do play it.

 

One of the greatest things about the game, IMHO, is the content scaling. Even tho the implementation sounds bad (essentially de-levels the toon to match the area, and upscales rewards to your current level), it renders all content relevant (in as much as you want to do it)... forever. In SWToR... I went from hitting 50 with 15k hps on my Vanguard tank to tanking SM EV that day. HM FPs were worthless. As I did not play WoW till the end of TBC, I missed most TBC heroics and raids (barely remember the 2 I did). The end result... if you want to play your 65th level toon with your friend/guildy that is 2nd level, you can (and still gain XP and drops for you).

 

What we have is an argument between those who have played the game and those who have researched it. An apt analogy would be someone who has read a book from Home Depot about electrical wiring for the home arguing with an experienced Electrician.

 

For me, I bought GW2 sight unscene at the start of BW1 and really enjoyed it as I did with BW2. I was stupidly obsessive with BW3 (Prolly 35 hrs played on that one). And it ruined SWToR for me. I am tired keeping my Tank, DPS, and Healer raid/PvP ready (prolly better said current). And yes, I did that with 3 toons on WoW, Rift and SWToR. If I have to do chores (may I NEVER do a BH daily again), I would rather do dishes, mow the yard, work the horses... but I see that as a chore.

 

Its too bad you missed the Beta Weekends (great advertising on their part). The best we can offer is:

 

Play the Game.

 

I am not unlike the vast, vast majority of people who have not had the chance to play the game and can do nothing more than research it to determine what level of interest we have. Part of that is asking questions of those who have played it. Instead of telling people "play the game," you'd do far better to try and help by answering the questions others may have.

[Morrolan]

Now, being interested in the Ranger class in GW2, I've looked into it a bit and it seems like regardless of what rotation I use, each attack will do basically the same thing every time. I've seen similarities with other classes but haven't as of yet been able to find anything closer to what I described from TOR. I was hoping someone could either confirm that combat in GW2 doesn't have anything like this, or provide me an example of where it does so I can take a look at it.

1. combos

2. utility skills

 

 

I am not unlike the vast, vast majority of people who have not had the chance to play the game and can do nothing more than research it to determine what level of interest we have. Part of that is asking questions of those who have played it. Instead of telling people "play the game," you'd do far better to try and help by answering the questions others may have.

If you want people to respond better towards you stop acting like a troll and spamming this thread, and develop an open mind.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Morrolan

[marcusbjol]

This really misses my whole point, but I still want to correct you: you cannot transmute PvE -> PvP gear or vice versa.

I stand corrected on the Transmutation Stone issue.

I am not unlike the vast, vast majority of people who have not had the chance to play the game and can do nothing more than research it to determine what level of interest we have. Part of that is asking questions of those who have played it. Instead of telling people "play the game," you'd do far better to try and help by answering the questions others may have.

So nothing else I mentioned helped you? Or are you just finding a flaw and ignoring as soon think you see one?

[Necrosov]

I don't care that much about instancing. I only brought it up in the first place in response to something.

 

What I mean by my question is this: If I play an Infiltration Shadow, every use of Clairvoyant Strike makes my next Project do 15% more damage, stacking up to twice. This means that my goal in battle is to get two CSs off and then a Project ( to make it simple). If I play an Assault Vanguard, every Ion pulse has a 45% chance to give me a free High Impact Bolt, so I use that until the free bolt procs. A Focus Guardian wants to get 4 stacks of Singularity, which builds via different abilities such as Force Stasis.

 

Now, on the other side, when I'm against these other classes, I want to do certain things based on how they work. This means staying out of range of Ion Pulse and interrupting Force Stasis, or popping defenses when I have had two Clairvoyant Strikes used on me.

 

Now, being interested in the Ranger class in GW2, I've looked into it a bit and it seems like regardless of what rotation I use, each attack will do basically the same thing every time. I've seen similarities with other classes but haven't as of yet been able to find anything closer to what I described from TOR. I was hoping someone could either confirm that combat in GW2 doesn't have anything like this, or provide me an example of where it does so I can take a look at it.

 

The necromancer I played I used the Sceptre main hand and either focus or dagger for offhand. I think I used staff for my other weapon set. Anyway, I built him around abilities that caused bleeding and conditions. I would stack conditions on someone and then hit my nuke - Feast of Corruption - which added 8 percent damage per different condition. If he didn't cleanse his conditions or prevent me from casting Feast of Corruption he took a good amount of damage. Aside, from that by using certain abilities I gained "Lifeforce" which allowed me to use Death shroud ( gives a separate set of abilities only usable in that form ) that also acted as a defensive ability. I don't know about the other professions too much ( I do know engineers had some ability to reflect damage back at me that was pretty nasty so you didn't want to use a big nuke on him when he used that ) - I really liked my necro so that all I played. But within my profession that type of gameplay was there.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Necrosov