Expertise cap?

[Gidoru]

 

For pure DPS, it works this way:

 

> ~700 expertise, power gives you more DPS point for point than expertise.

 

> ~1050 expertise, Main stat gives you more DPS point for point than expertise

 

Why would Power not also give you more DPS per point than expertise over 1050?

[MobiusZero]

On a side note, I have read, although can't verify, that you are better off stacking your character's main stat (strength, aim, whatever) rather than power.

 

This is true if you have the +9% main stat talent, and the +5% Buff. It doesn't give you as much DPS as power, even so, but the difference is so tiny that it's insignificant. Your main stat will also give you +crit, so most agree it's the better choice.

[Gidoru]

This is true if you have the +9% main stat talent, and the +5% Buff. It doesn't give you as much DPS as power, even so, but the difference is so tiny that it's insignificant. Your main stat will also give you +crit, so most agree it's the better choice.

 

It depends on how much crit you want. If you stack nothing but main stat you will have maybe 1% less crit but 15 + more damage than using a combination of mostly power with some crit

Edited July 24, 2012 by Gidoru

[SeventhGate]

I don't think this is correct either. If you are at 700 expertise facing me with 1300 then your bonus damage is 0% and mine is like 10%. This would only be correct if you were facing someone with 0 expertise.You also have to calculate in a significant amount of damage reduction against me.

 

I don't think this is the way it works, but I could be wrong. I believe it goes Damage * (1 + your % damage increase from expertise) * (1 - their % resistance from expertise); I think skolops is using this formula or something like it. In this formula, your opponent's expertise is irrelevant towards maximizing your damage. If you do 2500 damage with an attack, they will take the same amount regardless of whether you got that damage from an expertise % boost or a linear addition from power.

 

Does anyone know for sure if expertise works this way?

Edited July 24, 2012 by SeventhGate
Left a 1 out of a formula

[Darth_Philar]

My understanding is that Expertise is run twice (attack bonus calculated first, then defense bonus):

 

If we assume 2 equally geared players:

 

Player 1 attacks and does 1000 damage.

1000 is multiplied by his Expertise Damage modifier (let's say 10%) giving him 1100 damage.

1100 damage is then run against Player 2's Expertise Defense modifier (since they are equally geared, it should be 9.09%) meaning he sustains 1000 damage (the original amount).

 

If we assume non-equal Expertise:

 

Player 1 attacks and does 1000 damage.

1000 is again multiplied by his Expertise Damage modifier (which we are keeping at 10%) giving him 1100 damage.

1100 damage is then run against Player 2's smaller Expertise Defense modifier of only 6% meaning he sustains 1034 damage.

[kitsinni]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=500915

 

This is what I am assuming is true. This was stickied in the Sorc section but it should apply to anyone. This seems to be the most accurate information I can find until someone shows me otherwise.

 

Expertise RatingPvP-only stat. Increases your damage and healing done to other players and decreases the damage you take from other players. Healing is increased by "ignoring" part of the Trauma buff that is automatically applied when you enter PvP combat, and thus scales somewhat better in actual effect than the percentage displayed on the character sheet. The damage bonus scale moderately and limits to 50%, while the trauma ignore scales slowly and limits to 30%.

 

The DR portion is now (as of 1.2) calculated directly off of the damage portion, and is equal to 1 - 1 / (1 + DamageBoost%). The net effect of this change to DR is that any character attacking another character with the same amount of expertise will deal the same amount of damage they would deal if both they and the target were at 0 expertise. Previously, the DR portion scaled somewhat better, so, for example, a 1000 Expertise character attacking another 1000 expertise character would deal noticeably less damage than if both characters were at 0 expertise.

[Skolops]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=500915

The DR portion is now (as of 1.2) calculated directly off of the damage portion, and is equal to 1 - 1 / (1 + DamageBoost%). The net effect of this change to DR is that any character attacking another character with the same amount of expertise will deal the same amount of damage they would deal if both they and the target were at 0 expertise. Previously, the DR portion scaled somewhat better, so, for example, a 1000 Expertise character attacking another 1000 expertise character would deal noticeably less damage than if both characters were at 0 expertise.

 

It works out that way with equal expertise, but the way the math works it doesn't (if I'm running it in my head correctly) work out the same with different values. In other words, equal expertise cancels out, but it does NOT do so because of a flat subtraction. It does so because the way the mulrtiplicative formulas are designed they do this. However, being multiplicative when you compare, say, 1300 vs 1000 expertise it doesn't work out to the same as 300 vs zero.

 

I'm just doing this very quickly mentally now, so I could be wrong, but its really more of a side issue anyways. The real key is how expertise interacts with the base damage. Ill explain it more when I get home in about an hour.

[Skolops]

Ok, so here we go.

 

First, here is the formula for expertise damage boost for a level 50 player in the post 1.2 world:

 

50 * [1 - .98 ^ (Expertise / 40) ]

 

As you could see from graphing this, it means that the expertise buff has an upper limit of 50%. I don't explain this for any reason other than to demonstrate to those who believe otherwise that expertise is not perfectly linear and does have a limit as well as diminishing returns after a certain point. There is another formula for calculating the damage reduction from expertise which I won't waste space getting into, but others have posted it in this thread and you can get it here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-364.html

 

Moving on, here is the way that expertise itself factors into an attack in PvP:

 

PvPDamage = BaseDamage * (1 + ExpertiseBonus) * (1 - ExpertiseReduction)

 

For example, if I execute an attack of 2000 damage, and I have an expertise damage boost of 24% against an opponent with an expertise damage reduction of 15%, then it goes like this:

 

2000 * (1 + .24) * (1 - .15) =

= 2000 * (1.24) * (.85)

= 2000 * 1.054

= 2108

 

Thus, I do 2108 total damage. Now, when two players have equal expertise, it does indeed cancel out. For example, 1284 expertise gives a damage boost of 23.859% and a reduction of 19.263%:

 

2000 * (1.23859) * (.80737) =

= 2000 * 1.0000004083

= 2000.0008166

 

Of course, the only reason it is slightly different is because I rounded to only 5 figures in my initial values whereas the game does not, introducing error. In the actual calculations, these values would be carried to many more decimal places and it would indeed work out even and result back at 2000 damage.

 

However, consider players of different values of expertise, say an attacker of 800 expertise and his victim with 1000 expertise. The attacker's bonus is (again, rounding) 16.6196%, and the defender's additional mitigation is 16.5462%. (Don't be fooled that they are similar - the defender does have a big advantage, as it takes a rather smaller percentage mitigation to overcome a higher boost due to the way the formulas are designed - I can explain why if anyone does not understand it from what I have already written here). The attack:

 

2000 * (1.166196) * (.834538) =

= 2000 * .97323

= 1946.469

 

Now, does this work out to the same advantage as a 200 to zero defender edge? 200 expertise gives a reduction of 4.583758%. Thus:

 

2000 * 1 * (.95416242) =

= 1908.32484

 

As you can see, it does not. When we consider expertise differentials, we need to keep in mind that there is multiplying going on, not subtraction. Thus, a 1300 to 700 expertise difference is NOT the same as a 600 to zero difference. 700 expertise is worth considerably more against a very well geared opponent than 100 is against a lesser geared opponent.

 

This may be part of why there has been some confusion over how power or the mainstat could provide any advantage in pure DPS over expertise at medium levels of expertise. The reality is that, while 700 expertise is indeed a very low value for survivability's sake, for DPS it is already high enough to produce a multiplier percentage large enough to make the added damage from power outweigh and additional expertise.

 

Now, to help illustrate this let me provide a concrete example - but before I can, I need to explain one more thing: the way your power or mainstat effects each ability is slightly different. The formula for how damage is calculated for a given ability (for the maximum possible damage; the minimum is a similar formula) is as follows:

 

( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * MainHandMax + ( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * OffHandMax * 0.3 + Coefficient * DamageBonus + StandardHealthPercentMax * StandardHealth

 

MainHandMax and OffHandMax are the maximum damage ratings for your weapons, obviously. DamageBonus is the bonus damage you see when you pull up your stat sheet, a number that comes from your power and mainstat. All of the other values are unique to each ability which can be looked up on the internet if you are curious. This means that a Marauder's Smash is scaled by power and Strength a bit differently than his Ravage.

 

When a Marauder does a Ravage, the game takes his weapon ratings and whatever bonus damage he has from power and strength and calculates the damage using those two values along with the various numbers from the Ravage table it has stored in the code. When he does a smash, it does the same thing with numbers from the Smash table, etc.

 

The reason I'm explaining this is because it means we can't just plug power or mainstat values into some simple formula and multiply them by expertise ratings. We need to calculate them for a particular ability and see how it works out for that ability using those values. As this is tedious, I have a spreadsheet set up to do these calculations for me, allowing me to enter in the values from an ability table, power and mainstat levels, and of course expertise.

 

Opening the spreadsheet today, I have some ability entered in - I do not recall which. I think it may be Clairvoyant Strike, but I am not sure. In any case, I have it set up right now for 400 power and 1490 mainstat, which gives this ability a max damage of 925.871.

 

If I give my attacker 700 expertise against a defender of 1300 expertise, the attack results in a damage done of 857.3742.

 

Now, if I increase my expertise by, say 100, I get 870.2787 damage, an obvious gain. However, if instead I leave my expertise at 700 and increase my power from 400 to 500, I get 874.413 - a small, but still existing difference.

 

If of 100, I increase expertise or power by 200, I get as follows:

 

882.5477 with extra expertise

891.4517 with extra power and original expertise

 

If I increase my expertise or power by 500:

 

915.8464 with extra expertise

942.568 with extra power and original expertise

 

As you can see, the more we increase the degree of our change, the more power becomes favored over expertise for pure DPS.

 

Now, I also told you I tried this out with ridiculous values of expertise, such as 50,000. The damage of this attack against an opponent of 50,000 expertise, with me having only 700, is 709.1577, down a TON from the original 925.871.

 

Now, if I increase my power or expertise by 100:

 

719.8314 with extra expertise

723.2509 with extra power and original expertise

 

by 200:

 

729.9793 with extra expertise

737.3441 with extra power and original expertise

 

Ok, so here we go.

 

First, here is the formula for expertise damage boost for a level 50 player in the post 1.2 world:

 

50 * [1 - .98 ^ (Expertise / 40) ]

 

As you could see from graphing this, it means that the expertise buff has an upper limit of 50%. I don't explain this for any reason other than to demonstrate to those who believe otherwise that expertise is not perfectly linear and does have a limit as well as diminishing returns after a certain point. There is another formula for calculating the damage reduction from expertise which I won't waste space getting into, but others have posted it in this thread and you can get it here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-364.html

 

Moving on, here is the way that expertise itself factors into an attack in PvP:

 

PvPDamage = BaseDamage * (1 + ExpertiseBonus) * (1 - ExpertiseReduction)

 

For example, if I execute an attack of 2000 damage, and I have an expertise damage boost of 24% against an opponent with an expertise damage reduction of 15%, then it goes like this:

 

2000 * (1 + .24) * (1 - .15) =

= 2000 * (1.24) * (.85)

= 2000 * 1.054

= 2108

 

Thus, I do 2108 total damage. Now, when two players have equal expertise, it does indeed cancel out. For example, 1284 expertise gives a damage boost of 23.859% and a reduction of 19.263%:

 

2000 * (1.23859) * (.80737) =

= 2000 * 1.0000004083

= 2000.0008166

 

Of course, the only reason it is slightly different is because I rounded to only 5 figures in my initial values whereas the game does not, introducing error. In the actual calculations, these values would be carried to many more decimal places and it would indeed work out even and result back at 2000 damage.

 

However, consider players of different values of expertise, say an attacker of 800 expertise and his victim with 1000 expertise. The attacker's bonus is (again, rounding) 16.6196%, and the defender's additional mitigation is 16.5462%. (Don't be fooled that they are similar - the defender does have a big advantage, as it takes a rather smaller percentage mitigation to overcome a higher boost due to the way the formulas are designed - I can explain why if anyone does not understand it from what I have already written here). The attack:

 

2000 * (1.166196) * (.834538) =

= 2000 * .97323

= 1946.469

 

Now, does this work out to the same advantage as a 200 to zero defender edge? 200 expertise gives a reduction of 4.583758%. Thus:

 

2000 * 1 * (.95416242) =

= 1908.32484

 

As you can see, it does not. When we consider expertise differentials, we need to keep in mind that there is multiplying going on, not subtraction. Thus, a 1300 to 700 expertise difference is NOT the same as a 600 to zero difference. 700 expertise is worth considerably more against a very well geared opponent than 100 is against a lesser geared opponent.

 

This may be part of why there has been some confusion over how power or the mainstat could provide any advantage in pure DPS over expertise at medium levels of expertise. The reality is that, while 700 expertise is indeed a very low value for survivability's sake, for DPS it is already high enough to produce a multiplier percentage large enough to make the added damage from power outweigh and additional expertise.

 

Now, to help illustrate this let me provide a concrete example - but before I can, I need to explain one more thing: the way your power or mainstat effects each ability is slightly different. The formula for how damage is calculated for a given ability (for the maximum possible damage; the minimum is a similar formula) is as follows:

 

( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * MainHandMax + ( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * OffHandMax * 0.3 + Coefficient * DamageBonus + StandardHealthPercentMax * StandardHealth

 

MainHandMax and OffHandMax are the maximum damage ratings for your weapons, obviously. DamageBonus is the bonus damage you see when you pull up your stat sheet, a number that comes from your power and mainstat. All of the other values are unique to each ability which can be looked up on the internet if you are curious. This means that a Marauder's Smash is scaled by power and Strength a bit differently than his Ravage.

 

When a Marauder does a Ravage, the game takes his weapon ratings and whatever bonus damage he has from power and strength and calculates the damage using those two values along with the various numbers from the Ravage table it has stored in the code. When he does a smash, it does the same thing with numbers from the Smash table, etc.

 

The reason I'm explaining this is because it means we can't just plug power or mainstat values into some simple formula and multiply them by expertise ratings. We need to calculate them for a particular ability and see how it works out for that ability using those values. As this is tedious, I have a spreadsheet set up to do these calculations for me, allowing me to enter in the values from an ability table, power and mainstat levels, and of course expertise.

 

Opening the spreadsheet today, I have some ability entered in - I do not recall which. I think it may be Clairvoyant Strike, but I am not sure. In any case, I have it set up right now for 400 power and 1490 mainstat, which gives this ability a max damage of 925.871.

 

If I give my attacker 700 expertise against a defender of 1300 expertise, the attack results in a damage done of 857.3742.

 

Now, if I increase my expertise by, say 100, I get 870.2787 damage, an obvious gain. However, if instead I leave my expertise at 700 and increase my power from 400 to 500, I get 874.413 - a small, but still existing difference.

 

If of 100, I increase expertise or power by 200, I get as follows:

 

882.5477 with extra expertise

891.4517 with extra power and original expertise

 

If I increase my expertise or power by 500:

 

915.8464 with extra expertise

942.568 with extra power and original expertise

 

As you can see, the more we increase the degree of our change, the more power becomes favored over expertise for pure DPS.

 

Now, I also told you I tried this out with ridiculous values of expertise, such as 50,000. The damage of this attack against an opponent of 50,000 expertise, with me having only 700, is 709.1577, down a TON from the original 925.871.

 

Now, if I increase my power or expertise by 100:

 

719.8314 with extra expertise

723.2509 with extra power and original expertise

 

by 500:

 

757.5216 with extra expertise

779.6238 with extra power and original expertise

 

You can see that even with such an absurd expertise disadvantage, gaining extra expertise is still not going to give us more DPS than more power.

 

The reason for all of this is very simple. When I add extra expertise, I am taking some given base damage and increasing how much it is multiplied by, at some given rate. In other words, at the levels of expertise we're talking about (700 - 1400), adding 40 expertise will increase your multiplier by about 1%, though it varies somewhat over that spectrum (because again, expertise is NOT perfectly linear).

 

However, when I add power I am increasing my bonus damage - which the multiplier ends up multiplying - by some other rate - .23 bonus damage per point of power. The question is whether at some point the rate the power is adding onto my damage outpaces the rate the expertise does, and the answer is yes, and we have seen that demonstrated above.

 

40 expertise produces, give or take, 1% additional multiplier, or .025% per point.

40 power produces, at all times, 9.2 additional bonus damage, or .23 per point.

 

It would take some somewhat messy calculus to really figure out exactly where the point is precisely - especially given that the 40 expertise = 1% is not actually perfectly constant. Nonetheless, we would be able to see that at a certain point, the power will outpace things.

 

In any case, this is quite the rambling on and I will leave it at this for now, though I am open to any questions.