23-15-3, its been under our noses the whole time

[Xethis]

I can tell you that even with ~51% crit with exploitive strike up, my mauls can still go uncrit multiple times, it's a bit annoying.

 

Oh yeah I definitely know that feeling. My crit with ES is about 48% and I cannot stand getting 4-5 noncrits in a row. I go in to nerd rage quick. But I quickly change my mood when I get 4 crits in a row, that is sexssy time!

[Sroxe]

Your wastiing pts in this spec i cannot see it working very well

[Xethis]

Your wastiing pts in this spec i cannot see it working very well

 

Define "working very well"?

Just watch the first 90 seconds, I chain kill two Marauders in a row then and an Inquisitor gets 4 Maul crits and two Shock crits. That sounds "very well" to me.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Xethis

[Werdan]

What sort of rotation do you use if you have HD back in your rotation, and do you feel that it is stronger than Exploitive Strikes? That 9% crit basically takes you close to the 50% crit range making your Mauls crit 1 out of 2.

 

I do mostly PvP so I hardly ever follow a strict rotation as everything is situational. That said, from stealth I'll always try a Maul spam, use Blackout, and either Spike (can be used out of stealth in this build) and Maul again if I don't crit a lot and/or Assassinate to finish them off. I prep for HD while in longer fights against multiple opponents, weaving in Thrash, Recklessness, and Shock to build up stacks while moving and positioning for Mauls. While it may sound a bit simple, I do use most of my other abilities in a warzone with pulls, slows, defensive CDs, etc. On that same note, I wish Static Cling was lower in the Deception tree as I love Force Slow. I'm going to try a 24/17/0 build (no HD) to see how it plays out.

 

Like someone else pointed out, even with extreme high crit you're still a prisoner of RNG and can get a long string of no crits. I don't have any parsers but even with decent crit, I see quite a but of crits.

[Azareal]

Define "working very well"?

Just watch the first 90 seconds, I chain kill two Marauders in a row then and an Inquisitor gets 4 Maul crits and two Shock crits. That sounds "very well" to me.

 

You no like spike?

[Astarica]

Basically any 2X/?/? build is an inferior version of 31/0/10 because you lose the DPS and utility of Wither and you're already too close to Wither to not get it. Yes 10/31/0 loses to 31/10/0 too but at least you're nowhere close to getting Wither. It's still an inferior build but it doesn't look like you're intentionally gimping yourself by not picking up Wither when it's reasonable to do so.

 

As is right now buliding HD stacks and throw out FLs is pretty much the best DPS out there in PvP. It's boring but it's definitely the most effective style. Now inferior builds doesn't mean they aren't fun but you're pretty much just counting on Dark Charge to bail you out of a sub-optimal spec, which is less viable than it was before 1.3. I get that some people just want to backstab people but there is nothing that involves stabbing someone in the back in this game (this includes Op) that's viable at the high end. It's okay if you don't want to be competitive against the two powerhouse DPS classes (PT/Marauder) but no you're not going to beat an equally geared/skilled member of these two classes while running an inferior build. It's hard enough even while running the optimal build.

 

As an aside 4 Mauls is equal to 6 Thrashes in damage, so if someone died to that they're either almost already dead or they're greatly outgeared. 6 Thrash of damage is less than 1.5 Wither cycle (Wither -> Shock -> FL > 4 Thrashes) and even as low TTK is in this game, almost no one equally geared is going to go down in 2 Wither cycles.

[Werdan]

Basically any 2X/?/? build is an inferior version of 31/0/10 because you lose the DPS and utility of Wither and you're already too close to Wither to not get it. Yes 10/31/0 loses to 31/10/0 too but at least you're nowhere close to getting Wither. It's still an inferior build but it doesn't look like you're intentionally gimping yourself by not picking up Wither when it's reasonable to do so.

 

As is right now buliding HD stacks and throw out FLs is pretty much the best DPS out there in PvP. It's boring but it's definitely the most effective style. Now inferior builds doesn't mean they aren't fun but you're pretty much just counting on Dark Charge to bail you out of a sub-optimal spec, which is less viable than it was before 1.3. I get that some people just want to backstab people but there is nothing that involves stabbing someone in the back in this game (this includes Op) that's viable at the high end. It's okay if you don't want to be competitive against the two powerhouse DPS classes (PT/Marauder) but no you're not going to beat an equally geared/skilled member of these two classes while running an inferior build. It's hard enough even while running the optimal build.

 

As an aside 4 Mauls is equal to 6 Thrashes in damage, so if someone died to that they're either almost already dead or they're greatly outgeared. 6 Thrash of damage is less than 1.5 Wither cycle (Wither -> Shock -> FL > 4 Thrashes) and even as low TTK is in this game, almost no one equally geared is going to go down in 2 Wither cycles.

 

I won't argue about which spec is better as it's really subjective to the individual player. Plus, I don't like the idea of having a "best spec" for any class as it only promotes FOTM issues. While BW can surely do a much better job at class (and spec) balance, there are still players that enjoy (and excel at) different specs. I have a friend who not only loves Deception but does extremely well at it and hes not even full WH yet.

 

As far as Maul vs thrash goes I don't know where you are getting your numbers from. From what I've been noticing since messing around with these alternative specs, 1 Maul = 2 Thrash, 1 crit Maul = 2 crit Thrash with Maul being better, and 1 crit Maul with Exploit Weakness and Induction is way better than 2 crit Thrashes and costs the same. Again I don't have any parsers to back this up and is based from what I personally am seeing. That said, Thrash has more utility in that it can proc multiple damage modifiers and is key in specs with HD.

 

Will I keep one of these different specs? I'm not sure but I'm having even more fun with a class I was starting to get kind of bored with. It'll be interesting to see what additions/changes are made to this AC when they increase the level cap and I hope it's still as viable as a hybrid after.

[Astarica]

Um 1 Maul = 1.5 Thrash, this is very obvious from the tooltip. If 1 Maul = 2 Thrash then you'd never use Thrash if you can use Maul. You can infer this just by looking at the tooltip. That's why with 50% Force reduction Maul > Thrash but not without.

 

You're fooling yourself if you want to argue there isn't a 'best spec' for any class. The problem here is that the Darkness 31/0/10 far eclipses any other spec it's not even up to debate. For example the original Arsenal Merc spec is probably better than Pyro Merc but at least Pyro Merc is more mobile. It isn't enough to make up for the differences but you can at least argue there might be value in being able to do damage while on the move as opposed to standing still and shoot Tracer Missiles all day. Compared to 31/0/10 there's no such thing. It's by far the hardiest spec out there. It's most resilient against kiting tactics (in fact it can kite almost anyone). The burst DPS is comparable to any other spec in realistic situations (people don't just stand there and drool while you set up 5 stacks of Static Cling or even 2 stacks of Voltiac Slash). It outranges (10m versus 4m) any non Darkness based spec. There isn't even some sort of fringe benefit like Pyro versus Arsenal (prenerf) Merc here.

 

31/X/X has the survivality + mobilty advantage over just about any spec. This means you can simply emulate any other spec's play style and do it better by the fact that you're harder to kill and you can get to whareever you need to be easier. Well, it can't emulate anything that requires a deep talent (say, Low Slash), but Maul isn't exactly dependent on deep talents. If there's a 25 point tier talent in Deception that increase Maul damage by 25/50% then you can't emulate that in 31/X/X but no such thing exists. The +crit damage on Maul is nice, but it doesn't let you use Maul more often than EW proc and 31/X/X can certainly pick up EW.

[Astarica]

After thinking about this problem a bit more I think the reason why Darkness trumps all other specs is that Madness/Deception has some really weak 20-30 point talents. Generally speaking, if you look at a powerful class, their class might as well be gutted if the 20-30 point tier talent gets gutted. Imagine trying to play a Darkness Assassin without the 20-30 stuff (force pull, Wither, HD, +15% shock damage), or an Annihilation Marauder without 20-30. It simply won't work because those talents are powerful.

 

In Deception/Madness the 20-30 stuff is more like nice to have but not essential. +50% crit damage to Shock and Discharge crit is nice, but the overall impact to your DPS is actually pretty little. Being able to heal double from dot ticks is nice too, but again that's not something you cannot possibly play without. This means you can essentially emulate all other specs as Darkness. Darkness starts with highest survivality and mobilty, and if there isn't any awesome talents you're missing out, why would it ever lose to the other two specs? In fact you can make a good argument that most of the best Deceptoin/Madness talents are available in the first two tier, which is always reachable even with 31 points into Darkness. You need 27 points to hit HD in Darkness, so it is impossible for other two specs to emulate HD no matter what. The closest thing from the other trees might be Raze or Death Field, but you can get that by just giving up Wither (which I don't recommend)

 

Deception/Madness needs their 20-30 points buffed. Maybe they don't need to be like Darkness where it's basically a list of top 5 talents in the game (Force Pull, Wither, HD) but right now most of the 20-30 Madness/Deception feels more like filler you've to get for the 31 point talent which you're not even sure why it's worth such a big commitment to get in the first place.

[GeneralShade]

Nice OP if I ever decide to pvp with my assassin again I'll give this a try. Dark Maul...haha love it I'm not a theory crafter myself but even if trash in other builds are superior damage to maul in this build, if this works for the OP who cares? Stop hating on someone excited about a new spec he's trying out (and doing well with).

 

I'm sure very many star wars lore junkies would tell you that Darth Maul was a low tier sith, but he was still the most stylish and the best sith in my book

[MandraMoody]

Define "working very well"?

Just watch the first 90 seconds, I chain kill two Marauders in a row then and an Inquisitor gets 4 Maul crits and two Shock crits. That sounds "very well" to me.

 

Good music choice on the vid. What I can respect here is the fact that you aren't running around with a pocket healer like so many "uber OP build" vids on the forums. Ok 1st mara you did get the drop on but too bad...his fault for just standing there.

What convinced me to give this spec a try was #2. Got the drop on you and you were low in HP, wrecked him! Good show! No one can whine about any build until they try it, Theorycrafting is merely a forum game. I say try it out and if it doesn't work for you, then oh well.

 

Edit: LMAO at many of your opponents basically ignored you til it was too late.

Edited July 29, 2012 by MandraMoody

[Xethis]

You no like spike?

 

LoL! So funny you mention that, so many times while editing those videos I saw things that I could have done way better. Some fights my Spike and Electrocute were on cd, and during the fight they came off cd and I never noticed it. Looking back I saw so many opportunities to use Force Pull for an interrupt or to avoid being Charged.

 

Guess I need more practice.

[Xethis]

Good music choice on the vid. What I can respect here is the fact that you aren't running around with a pocket healer like so many "uber OP build" vids on the forums. Ok 1st mara you did get the drop on but too bad...his fault for just standing there.

What convinced me to give this spec a try was #2. Got the drop on you and you were low in HP, wrecked him! Good show! No one can whine about any build until they try it, Theorycrafting is merely a forum game. I say try it out and if it doesn't work for you, then oh well.

 

Edit: LMAO at many of your opponents basically ignored you til it was too late.

 

Yeah my goal with the vid was to show how it plays they way most people go into a WZ, by themselves, no pocket healers. My guild is still trying to gear up to be competitive in rateds but if we get a core RWZ group Ill try to see how effective this spec can be. Right now my money is still on 31-0-10 for rateds.

 

I would make a note as to those Mara's in the beginning were a bit under geared compared to me but that first Mara utterly destroyed me about 1 min prior to that. Notice that he did not have any defensive cool downs lol. I opened up on him and he popped everything right up front, next thing I know im at 10% health and he is at 90%, I had to vanish and go heal up.

[Astarica]

The problem with Marauders is that Marauders are the #1 melee class in the game by far. Nobody beats them if you're both in melee range for the whole fight, not even the pre 1.3 Tankasin. This means ultimately melee-based specs are futile because at best you're a weaker version of the Marauder and you'll never beat an equally skilled/geared Marauder with a melee spec. The only way to beat a Marauder is take advantage of their lack of range, but if you're a primarily melee-spec you can't do that.

 

For melee to be viable, Marauders need to be nerfed. It's not that melee-based spec is inherently unviable. They work okay if there are no Marauders, but as soon as you see one, all you're doing is being a weaker version of the Marauder.

[Werdan]

Looking for another fun spec to mess around with? I've been running this all day and having a ton of fun with it. It's still squishy but it plays fast enough that you can get out of trouble fairly easily. The highlights are Disjunction, Lightning Recovery, 100% run speed in combat, great Maul and Thrash crits, reduced cost Chain Shock with Induction, and Death Field for some light healing. I run it using Surging Charge (for the armor pen on all attacks) and have seen Maul crits as high as 6k with EW. It's probably not something I'll stick with very long but for those looking to mix things up, give it a try.

[Xethis]

Looking for another fun spec to mess around with? I've been running this all day and having a ton of fun with it. It's still squishy but it plays fast enough that you can get out of trouble fairly easily. The highlights are Disjunction, Lightning Recovery, 100% run speed in combat, great Maul and Thrash crits, reduced cost Chain Shock with Induction, and Death Field for some light healing. I run it using Surging Charge (for the armor pen on all attacks) and have seen Maul crits as high as 6k with EW. It's probably not something I'll stick with very long but for those looking to mix things up, give it a try.

 

Sounds interesting, Ill give this a go.

[thefishdude]

Two Mauls critting for 3.4k is almost 7k dmg, Force Lighting will never do that much damage regardless of what self buffs we have.

 

You must be under-geared then. When my HD stacks crit, I see anywhere from 1,800 - 2,100 ticks. Obviously, that depends on the person that I'm attacking (gear wise). I'll Fraps a couple WZ today and prove it as well.

[Astarica]

The base tooltip damage for Maul is lower than half of a 3 stack Force Lightning. Yes Maul does have higher crit damage modifier but the base damage of 3 stack FL is usually much higher to make the extra crit mod not a factor.

 

You can easily get 2K or higher ticks on low armored targets. Maul crits are more reliable against high armored targets due to 50% armor penetration though that only applies to the first Maul.

 

I really wonder if people even look at their own tooltip at times. If attack A has higher tooltip damage than attack B, unless there are talents that significantly affect these attacks, then attack A will always do more damage in almost any conceiveable situation since every stat that benefits attack B also benefits attack A.

[Xethis]

You must be under-geared then. When my HD stacks crit, I see anywhere from 1,800 - 2,100 ticks. Obviously, that depends on the person that I'm attacking (gear wise). I'll Fraps a couple WZ today and prove it as well.

 

Yes I am a bit undergeared, well just crit heavy really. Trying to mod out to increase my damage. And yes a full 3 stacks of HD with Recklessness is way more damage. But how often are you going to crit on every tick? Ive spent quite a bit of time on the dummies, it happens far less than you think. Sure in a WZ when we see it we are excited and it holds up in our memory banks longer giving us the perception that it has more frequency do to us not remembering the low damage Force Lightnings.

 

I would love to see your Fraps if you have them. Not sure if you have seen mine so I will link so you can see what 4-5 Maul crits do.

 

[Netzgeist]

Yes I am a bit undergeared, well just crit heavy really. Trying to mod out to increase my damage. And yes a full 3 stacks of HD with Recklessness is way more damage. But how often are you going to crit on every tick? Ive spent quite a bit of time on the dummies, it happens far less than you think. Sure in a WZ when we see it we are excited and it holds up in our memory banks longer giving us the perception that it has more frequency do to us not remembering the low damage Force Lightnings.

 

I would love to see your Fraps if you have them. Not sure if you have seen mine so I will link so you can see what 4-5 Maul crits do.

 

 

 

Here you go:

 

 

Also,

here's a recent combat log utilising 31/2/8(tabbed into the most offensive one):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/67f9e05a-8f31-4099-9eb7-b817d14fa281/player/1#d=0,f=9,b=1

 

This should be a valid answer to any assumptions for removing wither+hd from a darkness spec.

[Astarica]

Let's say your crit rate is 40%, while it's far less likely to crit all 4 ticks of Force Lightning compared to any one hit attack with the same crit rate, it's also far less likely to not crit on any tick of Force Lighting (13%) versus a 60% chance to not crit on any one hit attack.

 

Crits don't inherently favor or disfavor multiple hit attacks. It's less likely to get a higher total hit (all multiple hits crit) but it's also less likely to get unlucky and get no crits compared to single hit attacks. With Maul you've say 40% chance of hitting 3K and 60% chance of hitting 1.5K. With Force Lightning you've like 1% chance of hitting 10K and 12% chance of hitting for 4K, and most of the time you'll hit for something like 6K, which is as good as critting 2 Mauls (and your second Maul won't hit has hard since AP only applies to first Maul), and remember you only have a 16% chance to crit 2 Mauls in a row to begin with.

[Xethis]

Here you go:

 

 

Also,

here's a recent combat log utilising 31/2/8(tabbed into the most offensive one):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/67f9e05a-8f31-4099-9eb7-b817d14fa281/player/1#d=0,f=9,b=1

 

This should be a valid answer to any assumptions for removing wither+hd from a darkness spec.

 

I am not saying that 3 stacks of HD on a Force Lightning is not awesome, it is very sexy. But I don't think we are really accounting for all the times that it ticks for less than 1k all the while we are standing still while our opponents are starting to kite us. And as far as the 4% health we get back from FL adding to our survivability, again I don't think we are truly evaluating how much survivability this talent really adds. In my experience I have never had a fight go so close that the 4% mattered, either you were going to kill your target anyways or you were zerged you die regardless of the 4% heals.

[Xethis]

Let's say your crit rate is 40%, while it's far less likely to crit all 4 ticks of Force Lightning compared to any one hit attack with the same crit rate, it's also far less likely to not crit on any tick of Force Lighting (13%) versus a 60% chance to not crit on any one hit attack.

 

Crits don't inherently favor or disfavor multiple hit attacks. It's less likely to get a higher total hit (all multiple hits crit) but it's also less likely to get unlucky and get no crits compared to single hit attacks. With Maul you've say 40% chance of hitting 3K and 60% chance of hitting 1.5K. With Force Lightning you've like 1% chance of hitting 10K and 12% chance of hitting for 4K, and most of the time you'll hit for something like 6K, which is as good as critting 2 Mauls (and your second Maul won't hit has hard since AP only applies to first Maul), and remember you only have a 16% chance to crit 2 Mauls in a row to begin with.

 

You logic and Math are sound when it comes to crit chances and actual crit rates. But I think there is some funny math going on behind the scenes. I have seen very long crit chains over and over again, and I have seen as many as 9 non crit mauls in a row. The chance of that happening are so damn small its hard to believe that it happens often. I am sure it all balances out to my 46% crit rate (Exploitive Strikes) in the end, but it sure is crazy to see how often I crit on under geared targets and how often I don't crit on geared targets.

[Netzgeist]

- Its not 4% but 8%(2% per tick) which summed up to 51014 healing in my log i posted.

- We are not kiteable. period.

[Xethis]

- Its not 4% but 8%(2% per tick) which summed up to 51014 healing in my log i posted.

- We are not kiteable. period.

 

My bad.