remove heals from dps commano

[BlastingGravy]

Believe it or not, heavy armor just isn't that much of an advantage, especially not with the many skills and abilities which either bypass armor entirely, or allow classes to gain significant amounts of armor penetration. People always seem surprised when we say that heavy armor just isn't all that. It doesn't allow us to facetank anything for significantly longer than the other healing classes, but we don't get the escapes they do (disappearing act and force speed).

Yea, armor isn't quite as useful as it sounds at first glance. Even Bioware admits that they might need to reevaluate how armor and defense works given how much can bypass them. It's still significant enough to make you much harder to kill than a sage or scoundrel though.

Scoundrels get Dodge (nullifies the biggest part of the burst from Assault Vanguards/ Pyro PTs, probably takes quite a bit of skill to use this way), and Defense Screen. Would you care to comment on the overall effectiveness of Defense Screen? It sure SOUNDS better than Energy Shield which is a flat 25% DR for 12 seconds, but it could, likely is, limited in how much damage it absorbs. Our other defensive cool down is Adrenaline Rush which frankly isn't all that good, any heavy DPS is going to out DPS Adrenaline Rush.

You'd have to get pretty lucky to time dodge that perfectly, given that HIB is an instant. Pop it too early, and the PT will know to wait until it ends. It is, however, extremely useful against master strike. Defense screen is complete garbage. It is instantly destroyed any time I use it in PvP on my Operative healer.

I already mentioned Disappearing Act and Vanish, but sage in particular has that great kiting ability while still doing damage through DoTs and that is absolutely a form of survivability.

The same applies to an assault commando, although I admit that the sage is still better.

Commandos are like Vanguards in that our only real escape is to kill our opponent. We win or we die. Vanguards do this better though since their abilities to reset HiB are all instant, and Neural Surge can really buy them some time to get their damage out. If Full Auto doesn't proc IA then we're stuck with Charged Bolts which has a 2s cast time (1.5s if you spec into muzzle fluting in the Gunnery Tree), which suffers from the same problems Grav Round has as far as being shutdown.

I totally agree. However, I see it as a problem with assault spec vanguards being overpowered, rather than commandos being underpowered.

The ability to spec their knockback to root their opponents is huge for sages who need time to cast. Don't think it isn't. I'll trade the second knockback talented on stockstrike for that alone, and sages get a baseline snare.

The snare breaks on damage after 2 seconds, so you will get one cast. A 4 second slow sounds just as good to me, and you don't have to spec into it. I suppose it would be better if your plan is to run away.

I think this is showing your Vanguard background. THEY get the 100% applied snare on an ability that is part of their normal rotation to keep proccing Ionic Accelerator. Commandos don't get that for our secondary IA proccing ability, Charged Bolts. It has the same baseline chance to proc Plasma Cell that every other skill has. If we want to reliably spread our DoTs around we have to rely on the 50% more expensive Incendiary Round, or spam Hammer Shot, which at least hits multiple times so has a better chance of proccing IA.

I don't play assault vanguard. Don't forget that HIB refreshes plasma cell automatically. Plasma cell lasts for 6 seconds, and HIB can be off cooldown a maximum of 6 seconds. Full auto and hammer shot both have a good chance of triggering it as well, so it's not that hard to keep it up. Even if you get unlucky, you are still going to keep it up more than force slow.

[ArchangelLBC]

Yea, armor isn't quite as useful as it sounds at first glance. Even Bioware admits that they might need to reevaluate how armor and defense works given how much can bypass them. It's still significant enough to make you much harder to kill than a sage or scoundrel though.

 

I disagree with this completely. From a DPS perspective it sure as hell doesn't feel like they're any harder to kill. Like at all. Even Mercs and Commandos can kill other DPS mercs and commandos if they get the opening shot (otherwise it's a gear based DPS race). Operatives are arguably easier to kill in an open ground, both see each other and start DPSing each other situation but no operative is going to let themselves be caught in the open like that so we have to wait till they gank one of our friends and then start in on them. Commandos are out there as a free kill for anyone who wants to take them.

 

 

You'd have to get pretty lucky to time dodge that perfectly, given that HIB is an instant. Pop it too early, and the PT will know to wait until it ends. It is, however, extremely useful against master strike. Defense screen is complete garbage. It is instantly destroyed any time I use it in PvP on my Operative healer.

 

You can deny the second HiB to them. I'll grant you that Operatives are easy to kill 1v1 when you catch them out in the open, but again the ability to engage on your own terms is a definite survival tool. Of the three Commandos are the only ones that have to face tank whatever gets sent after them and their defensive tools to accomplish that just aren't up to snuff.

 

The same applies to an assault commando, although I admit that the sage is still better.

 

I'll address this in full at the end, but seriously the kiting tools on assault commando just aren't all that. Do you play commando? If so I'd love to see some good kiting tips for Assault Commando (not sarcasm btw. Please enlighten us). We have two dots. Plasma cell requires Hammer Shot on the move and the other costs 25% of our resources and doesn't snare the target. My understanding is that 30% of the time Hammer Shot isn't going to apply the DoT which means it won't apply the snare, and every melee class has a gap closer. Especially since Assault Commandos have to save their knockback for interrupting things like Master Strike.

 

I totally agree. However, I see it as a problem with assault spec vanguards being overpowered, rather than commandos being underpowered.

 

Then you're quite frankly wrong and I don't know what to tell you. Vanguards are fine. They have really good damage and some good team utility with grapple and taunts, but that's about it. They just don't fold like a cheap card table but that's because they can win the DPS race with pretty much anyone (the AoE melee range stun is the only real extra defensive ability they get). We both win or die, but commandos die more than they win (unless we're being ignored) while Vanguards win more than they die. At best it's a problem with commandos being underpowered AND vanguards being overpowered.

 

The snare breaks on damage after 2 seconds, so you will get one cast. A 4 second slow sounds just as good to me, and you don't have to spec into it. I suppose it would be better if your plan is to run away.

 

The ROOT breaks after 2 seconds. That means they can't get back in range to interrupt that one cast. Their baseline snare does NOT break after 2 seconds of damage. It lasts a full 6 seconds and is completely off of the resolve bar. And yes, the plan is to run away, get some distance, try to put the engagement more on our terms or at the least less on theirs. Depending on the cast you can get two casts off (cast something with like a 1.5s cast time, or use project, and the damage will land before the 2s is up), maybe three if you can get another cast off before they get back to you. Commando just gets the maybe one cast before they get back to you.

 

I don't play assault vanguard. Don't forget that HIB refreshes plasma cell automatically. Plasma cell lasts for 6 seconds, and HIB can be off cooldown a maximum of 6 seconds. Full auto and hammer shot both have a good chance of triggering it as well, so it's not that hard to keep it up. Even if you get unlucky, you are still going to keep it up more than force slow.

 

HiB is off cooldown for a MINIMUM of 6 seconds if that HiB is an Ionic Accelerator proc'd HiB not a maximum. It's maximum cooldown is 15 seconds. Additionally while Plasma Cell's DoT last 6 seconds, the snare which is the part we're discussing, only lasts for 2 seconds. For Vanguards this is ok since they can reapply that slow every single GCD with Ion Pulse or HiB. Full Auto is a 3 second self root or will be interrupted and is on a hard 15 second cooldown in the assualt tree. Hammer Shot has a decent chance to proc it but remember that Hammer Shot is a low priority filler attack for the purposes of Ammo Regen and something to do on the move while we wait for cooldowns on IA to finish. Force Slow has a guaranteed 20% uptime. Plasma Cell can theoretically be more but in practice it just isn't, because Plasma Cell pretty much comes as a bonus for us, because we just can't keep it up reliably. Additionally if we DO want that HiB to have a chance to come off cooldown after 6 seconds we're going to need to use Charged Bolts which is a 1.5-2s cast which has the talented 16% chance to proc plasma cell that every other hit has a chance to proc (barring HiB of course).

 

Yes if your singular goal is to keep Plasma Cell up, you can get decent uptime on it, and if you aren't unlucky on how those Hammer Shot procs are spread out you can keep the slow on with decent uptime to (not as decent as Plasma Cell, but still). If you want to get those High Impact Bolts off other than two in quick succession every 15 seconds, you're going to have to put Plasma cell procs on the backburner.

Edited August 5, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[BlastingGravy]

I disagree with this completely. From a DPS perspective it sure as hell doesn't feel like they're any harder to kill. Like at all.

Well, from the perspective of a both a Tank and DPS fighting commandos, I "feel" like they are harder to kill because of their heavy armor. I suppose that there's no point debating this since it keeps coming back to what people "feel."

You can deny the second HiB to them.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

I'll address this in full at the end, but seriously the kiting tools on assault commando just aren't all that. Do you play commando? If so I'd love to see some good kiting tips for Assault Commando (not sarcasm btw. Please enlighten us).

No, I haven't tried a commando yet, but I've played with (as in partied with) and against more than enough commandos to know what they are capable of.

Especially since Assault Commandos have to save their knockback for interrupting things like Master Strike.

Cryo grenade works fine for this.

Then you're quite frankly wrong and I don't know what to tell you. Vanguards are fine. They have really good damage and some good team utility with grapple and taunts, but that's about it. They just don't fold like a cheap card table but that's because they can win the DPS race with pretty much anyone (the AoE melee range stun is the only real extra defensive ability they get). We both win or die, but commandos die more than they win (unless we're being ignored) while Vanguards win more than they die. At best it's a problem with commandos being underpowered AND vanguards being overpowered.

I'm confused as to why you say Vanguards are fine and then immediately follow by saying that they can beat anyone in DPS. What exactly balances out the fact that they are the highest DPS class in the game?

Depending on the cast you can get two casts off (cast something with like a 1.5s cast time, or use project, and the damage will land before the 2s is up), maybe three if you can get another cast off before they get back to you. Commando just gets the maybe one cast before they get back to you.

You're forgetting that knockbacks trigger the global cooldown. So by the time you've casted your 1.5 second cast, 3 seconds will have passed. Yes, you could get off an instant, but it's no different for a commando.

Additionally while Plasma Cell's DoT last 6 seconds, the snare which is the part we're discussing, only lasts for 2 seconds.

Yes, 2 seconds, after every tick. This means that they are slowed for the duration, perhaps a little longer. (Although I do believe that most DOTs in TOR have a brief moment between application and the first tick.)

[ArchangelLBC]

Well, from the perspective of a both a Tank and DPS fighting commandos, I "feel" like they are harder to kill because of their heavy armor. I suppose that there's no point debating this since it keeps coming back to what people "feel."

 

Sadly this is true. Would be hard to really conduct a good test of TTK on each of the healing classes in various DPS specs because their defensive tools are vastly different. The sages are meant to DoT and kite (tons of DoTs and wonderful kiting tools), and Scoundrels seem meant to always engage on their own terms (a scoundrel in my guild constantly can keep 2 to 3 or more people tied up on an off node), with an escape for when the engagement is not on their terms. Commandos are pretty much forced to stand and fight, but our defenses (Heavy Armor and 2 mediocre Defensive cooldowns) just are not up to that. Having better defensive CDs than classes that arguably get their survivability from not eating damage does not prove we're less squishy. Our best defense is to just not be noticed, and worse if we ARE noticed we can be shutdown hard. Assault depends on self rooting casts almost as much much as gunnery, the only difference is they can get their burst out upfront unless they get unlucky with the IA proc from FA (since the proc occurs when you activate the ability). After that though it's charged bolts and hammer shots. Assault is actually worse at the casting game unless they invest 3 incredibly valuable points in getting the pushback reduction from tier 2 of the gunnery tree.

 

And I still feel incredibly easy to kill even if both of them were easier to kill. This whole side discussion still seems like an argument to buff all three classes.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

 

Admittedly I have to surmise what assault vanguard mentality is, but on assault commando my basic opening mentality is to Incend Round (frees up HiB) > HiB > reset HiB quickly with FA, and use Charged Bolts as a backup > HiB again.

 

If I was doing this on vanguard that step in the middle would be done with Stockstrike with Ion Pulse as a backup (which also applied Plasma Cell!). If you Dodge after the stockstrike/rocket punch you will either buy time to breath before they can drop that second HiB on you or if you're very lucky muscle memory will kick in and they'll HiB before they realize what you've done, wasting it and giving you 6 seconds of HiB free bliss. Of course now that I think about it alot of the PTs I run into apply that 2s AoE stun so they may be using that to guarantee that second Railshot can follow the first, but this is spitballing. We have less tools than they do so maybe their approach is different. If they hold it though they give you breathing room to stealth and run away (who knows how good they are at instantly dropping stealth scan down to stop this?)

 

No, I haven't tried a commando yet, but I've played with (as in partied with) and against more than enough commandos to know what they are capable of.

 

Maybe they have good survival tips. Can you ask them what they do about survivability?

 

Cryo grenade works fine for this.

 

Well master strike is on a 30s cooldown and cryo grenade is on a 60s cooldown so they don't quite match up like that, and I like to save my Cryo Grenade for things like other people's defensive cooldowns (only real counter I have to GBTF as an example), or when I really need some breathing room since its the only way to get myself a guaranteed heal off. A fight isn't likely to last another 30s but there are others to worry about. I do probably end up saving my Cryo TOO much though.

 

I'm confused as to why you say Vanguards are fine and then immediately follow by saying that they can beat anyone in DPS. What exactly balances out the fact that they are the highest DPS class in the game?

 

Their only defense is to win that DPS race, they are much more easily focused than their closest competitors for melee DPS sprinter, the Sents/Maras who can sustain that damage better, and even if I concede the point it would still remain a problem of them being overpowered and commandos being underpowered. The ability to out DPS everyone else does not make a class overpowered, any more than a Shadow's ability to solo cap a node makes them overpowered, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

You're forgetting that knockbacks trigger the global cooldown. So by the time you've casted your 1.5 second cast, 3 seconds will have passed. Yes, you could get off an instant, but it's no different for a commando.

 

Most of the GCD for Sage's is taken up in the animation (arguably a double edged sword for them!). There is also the aforementioned ability to just run, which I remind you Sages do way better than we do. Also our instants are on 15s cooldowns (to get off hammer shot quicker would require us to cast, and the better ability by far for that is also on a 15s cooldown) or are named Hammershot. Project has a 6s cooldown and is much more likely to be up (in the TK tree I don't think Project is even a normal part of their rotation.) Also if their procs have worked out they can make Telekinetic Wave instant. Better chances for good instants is my point.

 

Yes, 2 seconds, after every tick. This means that they are slowed for the duration, perhaps a little longer. (Although I do believe that most DOTs in TOR have a brief moment between application and the first tick)

 

Really? Learn something new every day. I'm either cleansing the DoT or too busy too look at my bar to notice that the slow is reapplying. Are you quite sure about this? Not the impression I get from all the QQ on the PVP forums, I suppose this would be easy enough to check on the Training Dummy, and until I know for sure otherwise I'll operate under the assumption that you're correct about it refreshing though I'll assume it ends when the plasma cell ends.

 

Certainly that makes getting Plasma Cell on target a larger priority, but we still have no reasonable certainty of getting it on till we can Hammer Shot. Even Full Auto only has a 40% chance or so to apply the DoT if my understanding is correct (84% chance to not proc cubed for all 3 ticks of FA is a ~59.27% to not proc. Probability not my area though).

 

Much more probable to kite, though it still doesn't solve the self rooting issue if you want to reset HiB with Charged Bolts on a regular basis.

[BlastingGravy]

And I still feel incredibly easy to kill even if both of them were easier to kill. This whole side discussion still seems like an argument to buff all three classes.

I actually kind of agree with this assessment. I was only trying to make the point that commando was no worse than the other off-heal capable DPS. I think there is at least some truth to the idea that all three aren't on par with other DPS classes (in PvP anyway).

Maybe they have good survival tips. Can you ask them what they do about survivability?

I'll ask when I get the chance. One thing I do know is extremely valuable to them is reflexive shield.

Most of the GCD for Sage's is taken up in the animation (arguably a double edged sword for them!).

I'm not sure how this is relevant, it's just an animation.

Project has a 6s cooldown and is much more likely to be up (in the TK tree I don't think Project is even a normal part of their rotation.) Also if their procs have worked out they can make Telekinetic Wave instant. Better chances for good instants is my point.

You're right, project isn't a normal part of their rotation, which makes it no more useful than hammer shot. Disturbance (a 1.5 second cast) has a 30% chance of giving you an instant telekinetic wave, which is a much worse situation than with your HIB proc. That's why I don't PvP on my sorcerer, I like the lightning tree for PvE, but it's the worst PvP spec in the game.

Really? Learn something new every day. I'm either cleansing the DoT or too busy too look at my bar to notice that the slow is reapplying. Are you quite sure about this? Not the impression I get from all the QQ on the PVP forums, I suppose this would be easy enough to check on the Training Dummy, and until I know for sure otherwise I'll operate under the assumption that you're correct about it refreshing though I'll assume it ends when the plasma cell ends.

Yes, in fact on my combat sentinel in Huttball yesterday I used force camo, which in the combat tree removes all movement-impairing effects, but since the DOT itself wasn't removed, I was immediately slowed again.

Certainly that makes getting Plasma Cell on target a larger priority, but we still have no reasonable certainty of getting it on till we can Hammer Shot. Even Full Auto only has a 40% chance or so to apply the DoT if my understanding is correct (84% chance to not proc cubed for all 3 ticks of FA is a ~59.27% to not proc. Probability not my area though).

With three ticks, that is correct. I should check how many ticks hammer shot has, I've never bothered to count due to how quickly they pop up.

Much more probable to kite, though it still doesn't solve the self rooting issue if you want to reset HiB with Charged Bolts on a regular basis.

As I said before, you can kite, but not as effectively as a sage. But my point is that you don't need to do it as much as a sage, because you have better defenses. Kiting is pretty much all sages have to defend themselves.

[Aaoogaa]

No, I haven't tried a commando yet, but I've played with (as in partied with) and against more than enough commandos to know what they are capable of.

 

I guess this is a measure of your credibility on this forum then. Someone that hasn't played the class providing advice and feedback on the class. I havn't played a sage to 50 yet...I don't comment on their forums due to lack of knowledge playing the class in the level 50 bracket.

 

Roll a gunnery commando. Level them to 50. Grind to warhero in the current state of the game...and you might have an idea of how much time we have invested in a class that is greatly underperforming in PVP. Then play assault and be a little happier with a class that is underperforming in PVP. Then go combat medic so others will actually take you on their rated teams when they cannot find a scoundrel.

 

As I said before, you can kite, but not as effectively as a sage. But my point is that you don't need to do it as much as a sage, because you have better defenses. Kiting is pretty much all sages have to defend themselves.

 

Sage shield + force speed + talented options > commando defensive shield...not seeing how you think we have better defensive abilities...unless you're refering to our armor...which BW has already said is underperforming.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[BlastingGravy]

I guess this is a measure of your credibility on this forum then. Someone that hasn't played the class providing advice and feedback on the class. I havn't played a sage to 50 yet...I don't comment on their forums due to lack of knowledge playing the class in the level 50 bracket.

 

Sage shield + force speed + talented options > commando defensive shield...not seeing how you think we have better defensive abilities...unless you're refering to our armor...which BW has already said is underperforming.

 

I find it ironic that you say my opinions on the commando lack credibility since I haven't played one, admit that you haven't played a sage, and then immediately give your opinions on the sage in PvP. I fail to see how your opinions on classes you haven't played are somehow better than mine.

[Trevalion]

I have played with pinkie-pie alot. Maybe I am coloring his opinion of commandos? I am pretty great after all...

 

All kidding aside, I finally got full warhero in all my slots and found that being on-par gearwise to the other rated teams on my server added alot to my survivability.

 

My tools did not change, but the added damage soak from expertise brought my armor mitigation more inline. I am currently happy in gunnery spec for pvp. I have to acknowledge the defensive weaknesses that have been discussed in this thread. However, I also am of the opinion that defensively we are not so far behind all the other classes either. Except for sentinel/maurader but everybody is behind them on defensive cooldowns for a dps class.

 

Gunnery spec is extremely situational though, no lie.

[ArchangelLBC]

I was only trying to make the point that commando was no worse than the other off-heal capable DPS..

 

Well as to that I'm still not sure I'd agree with that. I'd take a DPS scoundrel before I'd take a DPS commando to rateds as an example (and I AM a DPS commando). Of course DPS scoundrel would be almost my last choice of ANY class for PVE, and maybe BW wants it that way.

 

Balance Sage's problem is not that they can't do their job since their kiting ability combined with non activation time DoTs totally allows them to do that job. It's that their damage DOES come from DoTs and their burst isn't very good (a perfectly viable complaint), so what they can do is not really wanted in PVP because with a good healer it's mostly fluff damage. Commando's complaint is that we don't have the tools to do our job and depend on not getting noticed.

 

I'm not sure how this is relevant, it's just an animation.

 

It's relevant in the same way old Project animation was relevant. If the actual root effect doesn't apply till they actually land from the knocked back (starting the clock on the effect), then the fact that the knockback is on the GCD doesn't matter because the GCD will be over before they land allowing them to get off a cast before that 2s is up. The old project issue (where people could actually LOS the damage because the animation took so long) is what leads me to believe this is the case.

 

You're right, project isn't a normal part of their rotation, which makes it no more useful than hammer shot. Disturbance (a 1.5 second cast) has a 30% chance of giving you an instant telekinetic wave, which is a much worse situation than with your HIB proc. That's why I don't PvP on my sorcerer, I like the lightning tree for PvE, but it's the worst PvP spec in the game.

 

Well if it does more damage than it's more useful. I'd argue that Gunnery Commando is a worse spec for PVP than Lightning Sorc/Telekinetic Sage, but we're barely staying on point here so maybe that's a discussion for another thread lol.

 

Yes, in fact on my combat sentinel in Huttball yesterday I used force camo, which in the combat tree removes all movement-impairing effects, but since the DOT itself wasn't removed, I was immediately slowed again.

 

cool cool, thanks for the update. I've learned something from this thread which makes it a success in my opinion.

 

With three ticks, that is correct. I should check how many ticks hammer shot has, I've never bothered to count due to how quickly they pop up.

 

Yeah I was trying to think about that. Someone had spouted off a number of 70%, which is what I was using before but Hammer Shot would need like 7 ticks to achieve that, and while they pop up quick I don't THINK it's that many. 4-5, 6 at most I'd think. Guess I could actually just go to the ops dummy, do one hammer shot, and go parse my log, but as a mathematician I am way too lazy for that.

 

As I said before, you can kite, but not as effectively as a sage. But my point is that you don't need to do it as much as a sage, because you have better defenses. Kiting is pretty much all sages have to defend themselves.

 

My point is that the defense is not really enough better to properly face tank, and the snare (which I'll remind you is still pretty RNG dependent, though once it lands at least you get a solid 2 GCDs to try again) is not the best of tools. Sages can kite because on Balance spec they have enough instants and synergy to use abilities and run at the same time. Self rooting for 1.5s repeatedly is not something they have to contend with. This isn't a case of "well sages are the best but commandos are pretty good too". It's a case of "Sages are good and no one else is even really close". They do have those burst issues but that's an entirely different issue. On commando kiting is much more of a start/stop issue and when they catch up it's mostly stop for awhile (the two melee classes I've played both have snares also). Clearly though my kiting skills aren't what they really could be so maybe it's just a L2P issue.

 

To everyone else: This has been mostly a civil discussion (thanks to BlastingGravy for that) so let's try to keep it that way eh?

[BlastingGravy]

Balance Sage's problem is not that they can't do their job since their kiting ability combined with non activation time DoTs totally allows them to do that job. It's that their damage DOES come from DoTs and their burst isn't very good (a perfectly viable complaint), so what they can do is not really wanted in PVP because with a good healer it's mostly fluff damage. Commando's complaint is that we don't have the tools to do our job and depend on not getting noticed.

This is sort of the point that I tried to make originally, that commandos and sages have different, but roughly equal weaknesses.

It's relevant in the same way old Project animation was relevant. If the actual root effect doesn't apply till they actually land from the knocked back (starting the clock on the effect), then the fact that the knockback is on the GCD doesn't matter because the GCD will be over before they land allowing them to get off a cast before that 2s is up. The old project issue (where people could actually LOS the damage because the animation took so long) is what leads me to believe this is the case.

I just tested this on my sorcerer's training dummy, and it appears that the damage occurs somewhere in the middle of the GCD, so I'm assuming that's when the knockback occurs as well. I might test this further some time on a live target. I know for a fact that the root is applied as soon as the person is hit, and not when they land. The electric bindings animation is clearly visible as you fly through the air when a sorcerer knocks you back. The sage one is more a more subtle animation, but I suppose we're kind of deviating from the topic again.

Clearly though my kiting skills aren't what they really could be so maybe it's just a L2P issue.

I wouldn't say that. You clearly have the knowledge required, so at most you just need to hone your skills. (Although I'm probably not one to talk, I admit that I'm not the greatest PvP player in any class.)

To everyone else: This has been mostly a civil discussion (thanks to BlastingGravy for that) so let's try to keep it that way eh?

Yes, I would very much like to thank you for that as well. It's so nice to chat with someone with a touch of humanity and intelligence on these forums. Know that you have earned my respect, regardless of whether we agree or not.

 

Since our discussion is getting kind of stale, I'd like to ask something. Assuming that commandos are indeed under-performing in PvP, what changes would you suggest to improve them (or perhaps all off-heal DPS)?

[Gyronamics]

I don't play assault vanguard. Don't forget that HIB refreshes plasma cell automatically. Plasma cell lasts for 6 seconds, and HIB can be off cooldown a maximum of 6 seconds. Full auto and hammer shot both have a good chance of triggering it as well, so it's not that hard to keep it up. Even if you get unlucky, you are still going to keep it up more than force slow.

 

Er no.

 

6 seconds is the minimum lockout for HiB.

 

In a dummy run looking to maximise HiB procs a realistic time between HiB in sustained damage is 9 seconds.

[Aaoogaa]

I find it ironic that you say my opinions on the commando lack credibility since I haven't played one, admit that you haven't played a sage, and then immediately give your opinions on the sage in PvP. I fail to see how your opinions on classes you haven't played are somehow better than mine.

 

I believe I said I don't comment on the SAGE FORUMS. These are the commando forums so making a comparison here is valid when countering misinformation. I have played a sage to 30...not 50 so I am familiar with their abilities. Where as you have yet to play a commando and it does not seem to stop you from being an expert.

 

Yes, 2 seconds, after every tick. This means that they are slowed for the duration, perhaps a little longer. (Although I do believe that most DOTs in TOR have a brief moment between application and the first tick.)

 

I stand corrected the snare does tick twice...see below.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[BlastingGravy]

Er no.

 

6 seconds is the minimum lockout for HiB.

That's what I meant, that's why I said "off cooldown" instead of "on cooldown." It's still very poor wording though, so sorry for the confusion.

I believe I said I don't comment on the SAGE FORUMS. These are the commando forums. I have played a sage to 30...not 50 so I am familiar with their abilities. So I feel I can comment on those abilities in the commando forum. Where as you have yet to play a commando and it does not seem to stop you from being an expert.

So it's ok to express opinions on classes you haven't played, as long as it's in a different part of the forum? That makes no sense. How are the validity of one's opinions suddenly different based on where the post is made? The funny thing is, if you had simply said that I lack credibility due to not playing a commando, I would have agreed with you. It's the fact that you get to "act like an expert" on sages while criticizing me for doing the same with commandos that I have a problem with. I admit that I'm not an expert on commandos, but at least I'm not a hypocrite.

[Aaoogaa]

That's what I meant, that's why I said "off cooldown" instead of "on cooldown." It's still very poor wording though, so sorry for the confusion.

 

So it's ok to express opinions on classes you haven't played, as long as it's in a different part of the forum? That makes no sense. How are the validity of one's opinions suddenly different based on where the post is made? The funny thing is, if you had simply said that I lack credibility due to not playing a commando, I would have agreed with you. It's the fact that you get to "act like an expert" on sages while criticizing me for doing the same with commandos that I have a problem with. I admit that I'm not an expert on commandos, but at least I'm not a hypocrite.

 

Now you're just trolling. You are the one that was wrong about commando vs. sage kiting skills. Rather than admit you lack knowledge you attack. You have been corrected on your misconceptions multiple times in these forums. Nothing I wrote was indisputable so you decide to attack me. /golfclap Sages have more tools to kite and you have not played commando and like I said I have played the sage just not to 50. Alas, I have not made repeated mistakes when commenting on the sage like you have about the commando.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[BlastingGravy]

Now you're just trolling. You are the one that was wrong about commando vs. sage kiting skills. Rather than admit you lack knowledge you attack.

How was I wrong? In case you didn't notice, I did admit that I wasn't an expert. You attacked first, I was just defending myself.

You have been corrected on your misconceptions multiple times in these forums.

Examples, please.

Nothing I wrote was indisputable so you decide to attack me.

Nothing you wrote was indisputable? I'm not sure of your intended meaning here. If what you wrote is debatable, why would that be a reason to "attack" you?

[Aaoogaa]

Indisputable - beyond doubt, unquestionable, unarguable

 

You have not played commando...Indisputable

 

You think Commando has better defensive tools than a sage. In the current state of the game this isn't true. Defensive means abiltiy to stay alive...and sages currently have better tools to stay alive at every level of pvp than a commando does. Sure standing still Commandos will live longer vs. certain classes than a sage due to armor. Put all the defensive tools that a sage has into effect and the sage will live longer more than 5 times out of 10..the sage has better defensive tools...indisputable.

[AngelFluttershy]

You think Commando has better defensive tools than a sage. In the current state of the game this isn't true. Defensive means abiltiy to stay alive...and sages currently have better tools to stay alive at every level of pvp than a commando does. Sure standing still Commandos will live longer vs. certain classes than a sage due to armor. Put all the defensive tools that a sage has into effect and the sage will live longer more than 5 times out of 10..the sage has better defensive tools...indisputable.

 

As a level 50 Sage I can vouch that we don't have good defensive tools for PvP, we have great "get the hell out of there" tools. Sages only have Force Armor, a cleanse, two heals (one being trash and the other taking too long unless you spec into it), and Force Speed in their base "defensive" abilities. Force Armor only blocks about 4k of incoming damage if it isn't specced into, and you can only use it on a target every 20 seconds (unless you have the Mystic PvP set). The main complaint in the Sage thread, if you have read it at all, is that we're glass. Commandos have Reactive Shield, Adrenaline Rush, heavy armor, and Medics have great heals on the move. Sages only get two heals on the move which have to be specced into, their HOT and giving cleanse a small heal. Having played along side and against different specs of Commandos, I can vouch that even though Sages can run away, Commandos will outlast them any day.

[BlastingGravy]

Indisputable - beyond doubt, unquestionable, unarguable

 

You have not played commando...Indisputable

Then why did you say that nothing you said was indisputable? This means that there is some doubt in everything you said.

You think Commando has better defensive tools than a sage. In the current state of the game this isn't true. Defensive means abiltiy to stay alive...and sages currently have better tools to stay alive at every level of pvp than a commando does. Sure standing still Commandos will live longer vs. certain classes than a sage due to armor. Put all the defensive tools that a sage has into effect and the sage will live longer more than 5 times out of 10..the sage has better defensive tools...indisputable.

That is highly disputable. The very fact that we are having this conversation proves that.

 

Also, I just noticed that you edited one of your posts after I made a response. I'm glad I caught it though, because it proves which one of us is more of an "expert."

This is the perfect example for lack of knowledge. Plasma cell dot lasts 6 seconds...the snare lasts 2 seconds and will snare every time it is reapplied not every tick of the dot. So when it applies you get a 2 second snare. If the abilities fail to refresh the dot then the snare does not take effect on every tick.

This is flat out wrong. I'm getting so sick of people accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about when they could take only a few seconds to check for themselves. I just tested it, and it refreshes at the second tick. However, it does seemed to be bugged so that the last tick doesn't apply the slow. A quick search of the forums shows that a lot of people are confused as to whether or not this is intentional.

 

As of right now here's how it works:

Plasma cell is applied, and the first tick, along with the slow, is applied instantly.

After two seconds, the slow disappears.

After three seconds, it ticks again and the slow is reapplied.

After five seconds, the second slow disappears.

After six seconds, plasma cell ticks once more and the DOT disappears (but no slow is applied).

 

If you don't believe me, search the forums, or better yet, try it yourself. It's too little too late though, since you've lost all credibility now. I'm still waiting to hear how I was "corrected on my misconceptions," or what "sage forums" have to do with anything.

[Aaoogaa]

As a level 50 Sage I can vouch that we don't have good defensive tools for PvP, we have great "get the hell out of there" tools.

If they keep you alive they are defensive tools.

 

Sages only have Force Armor, a cleanse, two heals (one being trash and the other taking too long unless you spec into it), and Force Speed in their base "defensive" abilities.

Very similar to commando except...

 

Force Armor only blocks about 4k of incoming damage if it isn't specced into, and you can only use it on a target every 20 seconds (unless you have the Mystic PvP set).

That is 24-28k of damage absorbed over a 2 min time frame. This shield is addative to your health which makes it as useful no matter when it is applied. Reacitve shield is a 2 min cooldown and forces us to use it early to make is as effective as possible. The lower health the commando is the less effective it is overall.

The main complaint in the Sage thread, if you have read it at all, is that we're glass.

Yes, if you just stand there you are glass...or chain CCed or anything that makes a commando easy to kill.

 

Commandos have Reactive Shield, Adrenaline Rush, heavy armor, and Medics have great heals on the move.

2 minute cooldown (24k to 28k absorbed over 2 minutes by force armor and this can be applied to team mates as well and does not decrease in effectiveness based on your health...not to mention it is more on demand since it has 6 uptimes over 2 mintues)/3 minute cooldown (3k healed every 3 mintues) and you forgot tech override for an instant heal every 2 minutes for an average of 2800. So once every 2 to 3 mintues we are hard to kill if we put up reative shield at full life and use our other defensives we would be looking at 3k from AR, + 2800 from tech override + 100%-0 with 20k life 4k damage absorbed + 700 + 750 for our heals for a grand total of 11550!!!!...far short from just force armor. Then there is heavy armor that you agreed was underperforming...Sages still have better defensive tools...by leaps and bounds.

 

Sages only get two heals on the move which have to be specced into, their HOT and giving cleanse a small heal.

Commando have 3 useable heals on the move...all specced into for combat medic..I agree a fully speced CM is tougher to kill than a healing sage....but this thread is about the DPS specs.

 

Having played along side and against different specs of Commandos, I can vouch that even though Sages can run away, Commandos will outlast them any day

 

The sage can more often than not choose to get away. The commando has no choice they have to fight and maybe they would live 1-2 seconds longer than a sage in the same spot. The end result is the same everytime...unlike the sage who isn't stuck there to die everytime.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Aaoogaa]

I wanna add that I think TTK is to low atm for sages AND commandos...we are arguing against each other but on the same side. The issue is you're making it a comparison vs. commando when it should be a comparison vs. sentinel and vanguard which are the top performing ACs atm. Sages are middle of the field and commando DPS (gunnery for sure) is at the bottom of the barrel. My gunslinger in recruit gear has a longer ttk than my commando specced dps in BM/WH with similar damage numbers...there is a class imbalance. Edited August 7, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Aaoogaa]

Then why did you say that nothing you said was indisputable? This means that there is some doubt in everything you said.

Typo, sorry for the confusion.

 

Also, I just noticed that you edited one of your posts after I made a response. I'm glad I caught it though, because it proves which one of us is more of an "expert."

Please don't make it sound like I did it on purpose. I was editing when you were replying. Then I responded to your reply.

 

 

As of right now here's how it works:

Plasma cell is applied, and the first tick, along with the slow, is applied instantly.

After two seconds, the slow disappears.

After three seconds, it ticks again and the slow is reapplied.

After five seconds, the second slow disappears.

After six seconds, plasma cell ticks once more and the DOT disappears (but no slow is applied).

 

Just tested on both the commando and vanguard. You are correct about it reapplying itself. It ticks once at the initial application (second 1) and applies the snare for second 1-2 and 2-3 and then ticks again on the third second for damage and reapplies the snare for second 3-4 and 4-5 then it ticks for damage on the 6th second. I stand corrected. This is good knowledge to have so assault commando can try to slip in another rotation attack before the snare effect expires.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[AngelFluttershy]

I know this is about DPS but you brought up defense considering Sages, while some of what you stated above may be true, it doesn't fix the fact that anytime a Sage walks into a Warzone we are instantly marked for death by the enemy team. It's true that I can stay alive longer than some Commandos but that's only because of LoSing and kiting melee opponents. Sure, I may be alive but other than a few attacks and heals I might as well be dead. The largest benefit I have to my team is just distracting DPS, cleanses, a heal, and Force Armor. Your defensive cooldowns may be on a long timer but at least they help you while they are on. Plus, everyone knows Sages are squishy so even the DPS get jumped because any other DPS knows they can melt them in moments.

 

2 minute cooldown (24k to 28k absorbed over 2 minutes by force armor and this can be applied to team mates as well and does not decrease in effectiveness based on your health...not to mention it is more on demand since it has 6 uptimes over 2 mintues)/3 minute cooldown (3k healed every 3 mintues) and you forgot tech override for an instant heal every 2 minutes for an average of 2800. So once every 2 to 3 mintues we are hard to kill if we put up reative shield at full life and use our other defensives we would be looking at 3k from AR, + 2800 from tech override + 100%-0 with 20k life 4k damage absorbed + 700 + 750 for our heals for a grand total of 11550!!!!...far short from just force armor. Then there is heavy armor that you agreed was underperforming...Sages still have better defensive tools...by leaps and bounds.

 

That's perfectly logical, assuming a Sage can stay alive long enough to get those numbers. Even with kiting you're eventually going to be slowed, stun locked, or ranged DPS'd to death.

 

I wanna add that I think TTK is to low atm for sages AND commandos...we are arguing against each other but on the same side. The issue is you're making it a comparison vs. commando when it should be a comparison vs. sentinel and vanguard which are the top performing ACs atm. Sages are middle of the field and commando DPS (gunnery for sure) is at the bottom of the barrel. My gunslinger in recruit gear has a longer ttk than my commando specced dps in BM/WH with similar damage numbers...there is a class imbalance.

 

I was just making sure that you didn't think Sages had great defense, because in the long run they don't. A fully specc'd Gunnery DPS is under-preforming in PvP, there is no question, but they aren't that squishy. Not to mention Sages can't cleanse Tech effects, so get a Smuggler/Agent with some DOTs on me and I have to run for cover and just heal through them. Granted, we're the only class that can heal Force effects, but I find Tech to be more common.

 

TL;DR: Sages and Commando DPS are squishy as heck and pillars are your best friend. I don't want to derail this any further.

[ArchangelLBC]

Aaaaaaaaand discussion much less civil. Slow your roll peeps. For the record, I'm pretty sure I stated awhile ago that my personal feeling is that the sage's ability to reliably kite puts them above us in survivability, I'd love to reliably be able to call no joy and live to fight again. Arguably a grass is always greener argument since both classes seem to be glass cannons without the cannon part in PVP.

 

Their opinions are based on commandos they play with/against. I can respect that. I have a high opinion of Sage and Scoundrel viability in ranked PVP because one of my guildmates has a level 50 of each at 90 valor and he does incredibly well in ranked PVP. Everything else seems to be retreading old ground though.

 

 

Since our discussion is getting kind of stale, I'd like to ask something. Assuming that commandos are indeed under-performing in PvP, what changes would you suggest to improve them (or perhaps all off-heal DPS)?

 

For the off heals DPS thing, I just don't know how viable they're actually supposed to be in off spec. I understand they don't want us to just be able to replace a healer, but right now it seems to me that off healing in PVP has almost 0 viability with the baseline heals. All the baseline heals seem to be about the same at first glance and in PVP they suffer from two big weaknesses in off spec which is addressed in the healing trees by talents and by other healing options, as well as the different gearing priorities for healers.

 

1) Long cast times making them very hard to cast under fire. Especially the 2.5s cast which I think is the more powerful of the two for all classes (for sages this is a 3s cast).

 

2) Large resource costs (Commando and Scoundrel 2.5s heal costs 25% of natural resources, it's not that bad for Sages but their ability to quickly replenish a huge part of their resource pool is...well it doesn't exist).

 

The large resource cost thing is honestly as it should be in my opinion. Combat Medic has other heals and ways to make their heals cheaper or heal for more so they aren't needed as often (like every healing ability in the CM tree is free). Resource costs should be kept at the same level in my opinion.

 

The cast time issue is another thing entirely, though I know it encourages healers to take alacrity as a tertiary stat. I guess we could just start gearing for that over accuracy in PVP. In the Telekinetic and Gunnery trees for Sage and Commando respectively it would help us get our casts off I suppose. Dunno how much it'd be worth to trade off the accuracy for us since Full Auto and High Impact Bolt are important abilities in either Commando DPS spec. Possibly more viable for sages? I don't know their gearing priorities, but half a second off of all heals (and the pushback talents affecting all abilities in my opinion) would do a lot towards making those heals castable under fire which would make them MUCH more viable in PVP.

 

Other changes to the respective classes, I just can't tell you for Sage and Scoundrel because I don't play those classes, however for commando I made the following suggestions in another thread. I'm almost certainly overshooting, and the changes focus most on gunnery but I'll present my thoughts as originally stated with rethinks in red.

 

All Specs:

-Stockstrike/Rocket Punch should gain a knockback for the Commando/Merc AC. This should be a passive ability you gain at level 10 when you choose the AC. This knockback should also knockdown for 2s. I'm not actually partial to this change, I realize that other classes don't get a second knockback even if they get one, but we DO have to stand and fight so I don't necessarily concede that this is OP either

 

-Grant an interrupt ability on a 12s cooldown similar to other ranged interrupts at a level comprable with sniper/gunslinger interrupt. BW's biggest oversight with this class, and their stance on it is one of the reasons that I think prompted the starting of this thread

 

-Grant a low damage snare like other classes such as consular/inquisitor and sniper/gunslinger. Again this is just keeping us in line with other classes. I honestly think all classes should get something like this, either to keep enemies away or keep them in range

 

-Powershot/Charged Bolts should be an instant cast with a 2s cooldown (talented to no cooldown with muzzle fluting) I actually think this should be moved to a talent high in the assault tree. Keeping this here because that's where it was in the original post.

 

Gunnery/Arsenal:

-The talent that grants a knockback to stockstrike/rocket punch (concussive force for commando) should now make the snare on concussion charge a root (make each talent point grant an additional 25% to the snare, so with both 2 points it would reduce movement speed by 100%). I stand by this change. Maybe give Sage knockback a baseline snare if there isn't already. I'm too lazy to check right this second

 

-The talented snare on Full Auto/Unload should be changed to a root.

 

-An ability similar to Hold the Line should be added in the upper tiers of the gunnery tree. I would replace Kotlo Recharge with it. This ability would give immunity to interrupts, leaps, and all controlling effects for 8-10s of every 30. It'd be situational to use, but would give us the ability to do our damage under pressure for limited amounts of time. This or something like this needs to be added. Could also give us a proc on HiB or Demo Round which makes the next grav round instant with an appropriate internal cooldown if it's tied to both abilities. Something similar should also probably be added higher in the Telekinetic tree for sages. Maybe replace the alacrity talent?

 

-Curtain of Fire of as 33% chance per point to make the next full auto uninterruptable (so 100% when fully talented). Overshooting almost certainly. Curtain of Fire is already a pretty awesome ability

 

Assault/Pyrotech:

-Endurance Talent (Soldier's Endurance for Commando) should be changed to a talent which grants charged bolts a 33% chance per point to proc plasma cell/combustible gas cylinder. Along with the aforementioned changes to charged bolts that's all the spec really needs to bring it in line with Vanguard Assault. Like I said that aforementioned change to charged bolts should now be a talent high enough in the Assault tree to be out of reach for gunnery

 

 

In addition trooper and bounty hunter could use better defensive cooldowns, but Pyro Vanguards already do ridiculously good in PVP without them so that's probably overshooting.

 

You'll note that while there are significant changes to Gunnery especially, none of them are direct buffs to our damage. Rather they're changes which allow us the possibility to DO our damage or keep enemies at range.

 

For the most part I stand by those changes. Gunnery needs the most help and it gets the most changes but if they really don't want it to be viable in PVP then that's fine, but then Assault needs to be buffed in the two ways I've suggested to grant mobility which will directly affect survivability.

[BlastingGravy]

I wanna add that I think TTK is to low atm for sages AND commandos...we are arguing against each other but on the same side. The issue is you're making it a comparison vs. commando when it should be a comparison vs. sentinel and vanguard which are the top performing ACs atm. Sages are middle of the field and commando DPS (gunnery for sure) is at the bottom of the barrel. My gunslinger in recruit gear has a longer ttk than my commando specced dps in BM/WH with similar damage numbers...there is a class imbalance.

As I've stated before, I don't disagree with the idea that commandos aren't performing as well as DPS without off-heals. I was just saying that all the off-heal DPS classes are below par by about the same amount. I do agree that Bioware is overestimating the value of off-heals in PvP, but I don't think that commando is being punished for it more than the other two. I think part of the problem is that off-heals can be extremely useful at times in PvE, and Bioware admittedly doesn't want to balance around PvP.

Please don't make it sound like I did it on purpose. I was editing when you were replying. Then I responded to your reply.

That wasn't my intent, but I can see how one could interpret it that way. I apologize.

Just tested on both the commando and vanguard. You are correct about it reapplying itself. It ticks once at the initial application (second 1) and applies the snare for second 1-2 and 2-3 and then ticks again on the third second for damage and reapplies the snare for second 3-4 and 4-5 then it ticks for damage on the 6th second. I stand corrected. This is good knowledge to have so assault commando can try to slip in another rotation attack before the snare effect expires.

A lot of the threads asking about that last tick applying a slow are quite old, so I'm starting to think it's intentional. Regardless, I think they should fix it so that it does apply the slow for the last tick, it seems like even something that small could go a long way to improve your ability to kite.

 

That post is a doozy, Archangel, I'm going to have to come back later for that one!

[Srepos]

I agree with the poster about removing the heals. Keep the dot remove and heals in the heal tree because thats where they belong. Its a lil thing called HEALING TOOLS that does not belong on a dps Tree. Its not our fault that swtor was lazy and lumped us up with a healing tree/class. Bh healer lol wut? BFG on a commando and it shoots a green lazer that heals? Not what the SWTOR trailer showed when trooper fought the assasin or any vid for that matter. I did not buy this game and pay a sub so my trooper "might" get a crit on using tech overide for a 4.5 k heal when u get sweep crit for 6k/ rail shot/HIB by a tank for 5-6k ect. I payed to blast ppl in the face with my BFG.

 

Now i dont mind getting crit for those numbers but....... it would be nice to do it to other players if not for the defensive CD's / Cloaks/ broken cc in the game. Commando /BH get a lame 25% shield that ppl still hit mad damage throught it. Dont get me wrong, i can put up crazy numbers on assault when the dps geared tank/ sent/ gaurded dps powertech has thier back turned on me. BUT im owned if ONE good player who has all the defensive skills, hits for 5-6k while i see 1,9,7 damage im doing to him. I would stun,cc,snare some players to try and put some distance between us but guess what? I Get force run to, lept on , pulled while the same time i cannot do a KB cuz they are immune. Then i cant damage anything cuz they are immune or have a 20/40/50 99% damage reduction on them. Commandos dps is just fine the way it is, we just need to land the damage.

 

For all ppl who say kite on a commando i just lol at, no such thing. I call it i hope my "crap utillity" goes off and works, if not ill just hammershot snare untill i die. Good players can work around our cc with ease. One simple idea is just give commandos a defensive bypass in place of our heals, dot removal, tech overide.Thats three moves id trade for just a decent usable buff. Make the cd around 2 mins so its not spamable, that would take care of the Defensive dps buff poping bs that i see daily. It would make the healers have to heal the sents, make the tanks wear tank gear. If they want dps by all means let them, we just need to be able to hit them for the same damage they hit us with.

 

As for the sorc /sage shield, the bypass could not affect the bubbles. The bypass buff would be used % of damage reduction or immune to a certain white/yellow damage. As for the sents who would cry about this buff u have a cloak , use it to burn the timer on our buff. As for the tanks who might get a lil sore about this, the buff would not bypass any armor or do more damage. Just Counter one of your defensive cd of the 3 you would have spec as a tank. Wear tank gear, still a tank. Simple fix

Edited August 8, 2012 by Srepos