Why do tanks put Guard on healers in PvE?

[Vaizrin]

For what its worth, I've fought this fight before and I agree with you.

 

If all else is equal, guard the healer. If your DPS continues to pull agro off of you, guard the DPS. If you're in a HM FP, 5% DR won't matter to a DPS because the healer was never going to heal them anyway. If you're in an HM OP where 5% DR might make a difference between life and death for a DPS, guard the DPS.

 

But default should be the healer for every reason you've explained. Anyone saying there is a one-size fits all answer (always guard the healer or always guard the DPS) is just blowing hot air.

 

Thank you, it lets me know I'm at least making sense. It is amazing how rigid the player group of this game is -_- I have to deal with it constantly in pugs.

[Daskillz]

As a tank I tend to guard the healer because one I know my threat is good enough to hold aggro off of the dps in the group most of the time. If I notice that a dps is really pulling off of me then ofc they receive the guard. I always hit any mob I can when I pull so the "uncontrolled mobs" don't go for the healer. I usually hope that the dps will kill them right away but it doesn't keep me from understanding that it is my job to pick everything up and protect the healer and dps from damage.

 

When I tank I automatically assume the the dps in the group are retarded until proven competent. If you goto a pug and expect dps to do things without you telling them then ofc you will get annoyed.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Daskillz

[ImmortalAlien]

Trash pulls: Dps is guarded and attacking weakest mobs. Great. Until a pat walks into your healer / a random AoE unfortunately knocks player x into mobs. Guess who gets lots of Agro? Not the dps. It all goes to the healer, Sonia you have to snap enough threat on all of them. What if your taunts are on cd? It won't be easy pulling threat off of massive AoE heals or large single crits.

 

Even with guard, the healer will pull aggro from anything not currently taunted or damaged. It's also not that hard to pull aggro from unguarded healers.

 

Assuming an unguarded healer not using threat dumps and has a generic 10% reduction in threat from talents:

 

Tanks: Disregarding high threat abilities and taunts, tanks need to do 22.5% of damage that healers have healed in range of the aggroed mob to match the healer's threat. The tank needs to burst 30% of the damage that the healer has healed in order to ensure that aggro transfers to the tank.

 

Guarded DPS: Again, disregarding high threat abilities and taunts, DPS with guard must do 60% points of damage of the healer's points of heals in order to match threat. The guarded DPS has to do 78% points of the healed points in damage in order to ensure that aggro transfers.

 

Unguarded DPS: This DPS will have to do 45% of the points of healing in damage in order to match the healer's threat, and then 58.5% of the points in healing in damage in order to ensure that aggro transfers.

 

How much DPS does each player need, then? Good healers, from what the combat logs in my raid group have shown, usually do HPS of 1400 to 1700. This means that:

 

Tanks: Need sustained 315 - 382.5 DPS to keep aggro away from healers, and then burst 420 - 510 DPS to rip aggro away from the healer.

 

Guarded DPS: Needs sustained 840 - 1020 DPS to keep aggro away from healers, then burst 1092 - 1326 DPS to ensure that aggro transfers.

 

Unguarded DPS: Needs sustained 630 - 765 DPS, and then burst 819 - 995 DPS to rip aggro off.

 

All those benchmarks are extremely easy to make for comparatively geared players to a healer doing 1400 - 1700 HPS, even for the guarded DPS. Essentially, there should be no reason anyone should have issue pulling aggro off of the healer unless the mob is ignored for a prolonged period of time (which is an extreme no-no).

[RDeanOU]

Now I agree it's up to the tank to decide who gets guarded, what I disagree on is your mentality. You're being stubborn, as an endgame PVE player I know for a fact there are fewer reasons now to guard a dps than a healer.

 

 

Trash pulls: Dps is guarded and attacking weakest mobs. Great. Until a pat walks into your healer / a random AoE unfortunately knocks player x into mobs. Guess who gets lots of Agro? Not the dps. It all goes to the healer, Sonia you have to snap enough threat on all of them. What if your taunts are on cd? It won't be easy pulling threat off of massive AoE heals or large single crits.

 

What happens when a dps pulls threat? Nothing. I've never had a wipe because dps kept pulling threat. I have seen many times where I am ammo starved trying to pull every mob off the healer because they are too spread out / ranged for AoE threat and I have to ion pulse each mob.

 

I'm a full Rakata / BH Vanguard and I've cleared all the content in the game except 16 man content. Guarding dps is a waste of threat and nothing else. The only time it's needed is when they outgear you.

 

Heals only gain threat at 50% the rate of damage. They will always have aggro on the mobs no one is targeting because their pathetic threat is spread across all mobs and they will virtually never ever have aggro on any mob that is being targeted by anyone else because they simply do not generate enough threat to out aggro the worst dps in the group. Having guard on them will not change that. Whether you guard them or not they will have aggro on the mobs that no one is hitting and they will not have aggro on the mobs people are hitting.

 

Think of it this way. They already have their threat reduced by 50% just from game mechanics. Why do you think reducing it by 25% more will be significant.

 

I am not claiming that there isn't an argument to be made for guarding a healer in specific situations. You could claim that threat is trivial now and the damage reduction is more useful on the healer during trash pulls. I think that is a debatable point, but it makes more sense than this idea that guard is going to somehow save the healer from gaining aggro on mobs in trash pulls. Guarding a healer will not keep them from gaining aggro on spread out trash that no one is hitting. You can reduce their threat by 99% and they will still have more than the zero everyone else does because their threat is spread out amongst all mobs. The good news is that whether you guard them or not you can gain aggro on the spread out mobs by using almost any ability. Healing threat is really that trivial.

 

TL/DR

Using Guard on a healer during trash fights doesn't keep them from gaining aggro on the spread out trash and it is already stupidly easy to gain it back from them because the game mechanics already reduce their threat by far more than the Guard buff does. Guard will never make a significant difference in whether a healer has aggro or not during trash fights.

 

You can make the argument that it is sometimes better to guard a healer, but this isn't how you make that case.

Edited July 24, 2012 by RDeanOU

[DiLune]

TL/DR

Using Guard on a healer during trash fights doesn't keep them from gaining aggro on the spread out trash and it is already stupidly easy to gain it back from them because the game mechanics already reduce their threat by far more than the Guard buff does. Guard will never make a significant difference in whether a healer has aggro or not during trash fights.

 

You can make the argument that it is sometimes better to guard a healer, but this isn't how you make that case.

 

The issue is this: This same argument applies to DPS. In essence, the real answer to who do you need to guard? Nobody. It really, really doesn't matter, unless you are consistently losing agro to a DPS. So if it doesn't matter who you guard, who is the most important person to guard? To me, that default is the healer.

 

Now, there are times when you want to guard a DPS because of the mechanics of something, but that, to me, isn't the default.

Edited July 25, 2012 by DiLune

[Vaizrin]

You are all getting hung up on "if the healer pulls Agro."

 

That was one minuscule reason to guard them.

 

I'm speed listing this so you can see every reason to guard and not have to read though a post because clearly people are losing a lot of the key facts.

 

1) Guarding a dps lowers your overall threat, specifically burst dps classes like assault vanguards.

 

2) Guarding a dps does nothing to benefit the group.

 

3) Guardig a healer reduces their already reduced threat down by 25%. Ever hear of min / maxing? That's what we are doing here.

 

4) Guarding a healer gives them another 5% damage reduction for those cases that something big hits them and I'm too far or incapable of helping them. I.E. the false emperor when each player fights alone.

 

5) What happens when a dps pulls Agro? Nothing.

 

6) You SHOULD guard a dps that pulls Agro constantly and you can't manage to keep threat.

 

7) You SHOULD guard anyone that is taking high AoE damage, and if the entire group is then make sure you guard the healer because healers tend to not heal themselves.

 

These are the 7 main points I have been trying to bring to light, if you want to respond I ask you don't just respond with 1 reason you shouldn't guard the healer. All the mechanics explained I thoroughly understand, but mechanics are not logic. Please continue to blindly guard the dps that wouldn't pull off of you in the first place, and I'll continue to guard the healer for just in case emergencies or the dps when appropriate or any player that will be taking additional damage.

 

I understand you think in theory that guarding a healer won't make it easier to rip threat off a healer, but I can promise you it's a huge difference from experience. Guard is highly flexible, all I'm trying to say us don't hate on people just because they guard healers. There are many good reasons to guard a healer.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Vaizrin

[kaydo_]

Y

4) Guarding a healer gives them another 5% damage reduction for those cases that something big hits them and I'm too far or incapable of helping them. I.E. the false emperor when each player fights alone.

 

Funny you should reference False Emperor, I actually used to switch my Guard to whoever was about to solo and not a single time have I taken any damage while they're getting hit, leading me to believe that Guard actually does not work for that fight, while incapacitated. If you've noticed otherwise that's very interesting, because I was awfully let down when I found out that clever trick wasn't actually doing anything.

[Malissant]

Funny you should reference False Emperor, I actually used to switch my Guard to whoever was about to solo and not a single time have I taken any damage while they're getting hit, leading me to believe that Guard actually does not work for that fight, while incapacitated. If you've noticed otherwise that's very interesting, because I was awfully let down when I found out that clever trick wasn't actually doing anything.

 

The damage transfer only works in PvP, you'll still be blocking 5% of their damage just from applying guard.

[Newyankalt]

I don't guard healers at all.

[Rawrwafer]

Bottom line, if your healer is taking damage it's either the tanks fault for not gaining aggro on everything, even the little guys, a single aoe attack will hold them most of the fight, healer threat is meaningless. if the tank is doing his job and the healer is taking damage then they are doing it wrong. Ranged dps and healers should almost always be at max range, melee dps are in the fight taking the occasional damage. Melee dps also dont have the ability to heal through what they might take in damage. Healers forgetting to heal themselves is no reason to guard them. That's just retarded. I ONLY guard healers if they have significantly less hp than the other group members.

[RDeanOU]

The issue is this: This same argument applies to DPS. In essence, the real answer to who do you need to guard? Nobody. It really, really doesn't matter, unless you are consistently losing agro to a DPS. So if it doesn't matter who you guard, who is the most important person to guard? To me, that default is the healer.

 

Now, there are times when you want to guard a DPS because of the mechanics of something, but that, to me, isn't the default.

 

No, the same argument does not apply to DPS because they do not gain threat as slowly as healers. Healing gains threat at 50% the rate of damage. That makes healing aggro absolutely trivial. The only mobs a healer will ever have aggro on are the ones that no one in the group is touching. It is more difficult to hold aggro over a good DPS than a healer and guard absolutely can make a difference in that regard (especially when placed on a melee DPS early in a fight). Also, if the DPS are burning down trash in correct kill orders they will be taking a few hits from the normal mobs that the tank isn't trying to hold. The healer will not be taking damage unless the DPS aren't doing that correctly.

 

You can make the argument that threat in general is trivial and so that portion of the buff should therefore be ignored and I think that is what you are trying to say. However, if we are using threat as the deciding factor on who should get the buff (as the person I was replying to was suggesting) it will never ever be the healer who gets it.

Edited July 26, 2012 by RDeanOU

[Mordeguy]

You are all getting hung up on "if the healer pulls Agro."

 

That was one minuscule reason to guard them.

 

I'm speed listing this so you can see every reason to guard and not have to read though a post because clearly people are losing a lot of the key facts.

 

1) Guarding a dps lowers your overall threat, specifically burst dps classes like assault vanguards.

 

2) Guarding a dps does nothing to benefit the group.

 

3) Guardig a healer reduces their already reduced threat down by 25%. Ever hear of min / maxing? That's what we are doing here.

 

4) Guarding a healer gives them another 5% damage reduction for those cases that something big hits them and I'm too far or incapable of helping them. I.E. the false emperor when each player fights alone.

 

5) What happens when a dps pulls Agro? Nothing.

 

6) You SHOULD guard a dps that pulls Agro constantly and you can't manage to keep threat.

 

7) You SHOULD guard anyone that is taking high AoE damage, and if the entire group is then make sure you guard the healer because healers tend to not heal themselves.

 

These are the 7 main points I have been trying to bring to light, if you want to respond I ask you don't just respond with 1 reason you shouldn't guard the healer. All the mechanics explained I thoroughly understand, but mechanics are not logic. Please continue to blindly guard the dps that wouldn't pull off of you in the first place, and I'll continue to guard the healer for just in case emergencies or the dps when appropriate or any player that will be taking additional damage.

 

I understand you think in theory that guarding a healer won't make it easier to rip threat off a healer, but I can promise you it's a huge difference from experience. Guard is highly flexible, all I'm trying to say us don't hate on people just because they guard healers. There are many good reasons to guard a healer.

 

1. Moot. Taunt will put you higher than anyone else's aggro regardless of what the highest threat is anyway.

 

2. If by chance you do lose aggro to a DPS it can spell disaster against bosses with cone attacks that can nearly (if not completely) 1-shot your group or disrupt them. See Denova HM. Keeping aggro off a dps is very important.

 

3. That's not min maxing, that's being redundant. Under no circumstances should healer threat ever be an issue outside of FPs where there are a few stragglers doing measly damage and the dps are derping.

 

4. The false emperor? Seriously? What healer would ever die on that fight? I'm starting to think you're a comedian. Your point about 5% less damage taken is absolutely valid but FE? You don't even need a tank for that fight, a healer should never have trouble surviving the 1v1.

 

5. The boss gets pointed at them and the group and wipes them out. I'm talking real bosses, not Malgus.

 

6. Hence why it's waste of time to guard a healer for threat reasons, because they will never pull aggro off you.

 

7. Depends entirely on the situation. My healers sure know to heal themselves, not sure what sort of healers you're playing with.

 

Even so, it's not hard to hold aggro against anyone anymore. Guarding the healer though for any reason outside of a 5% reduction is foolish. If the healer ever pulls aggro it's because you and/or your dps have failed to do your jobs.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Mordeguy

[DiLune]

You can make the argument that threat in general is trivial and so that portion of the buff should therefore be ignored and I think that is what you are trying to say. However, if we are using threat as the deciding factor on who should get the buff (as the person I was replying to was suggesting) it will never ever be the healer who gets it.

 

My post was pretty specific that threat is meaningless unless you are overgeared by a DPS. And I have been pretty specific that if you are losing threat to a DPS, then guard him/her.

 

But the point of my post (and the point of a lot of the posts here) is that if you aren't losing threat to DPS then they should not be the default guard. Ultimately, in a HM FP, unless you are undergeared and can't hold threat, guard means nothing. But if I am going to put guard on something anyway, I'll put it on the healer, my default.

[DiLune]

Even so, it's not hard to hold aggro against anyone anymore. Guarding the healer though for any reason outside of a 5% reduction is foolish. If the healer ever pulls aggro it's because you and/or your dps have failed to do your jobs.

 

So, given that you understand the crux of the argument, that threat is meaningless unless you are being overgeared, who would you rather have guarded if the crap hit the fan? The Healer. (Unless, as has been stated ad naseum, there are mechanics that make it important to guard the DPS, which won't be found in HM FP's.)

[HarlequinII]

So, given that you understand the crux of the argument, that threat is meaningless unless you are being overgeared, who would you rather have guarded if the crap hit the fan? The Healer. (Unless, as has been stated ad naseum, there are mechanics that make it important to guard the DPS, which won't be found in HM FP's.)

 

I think most are missing the point of guard. Guard is not an ability that saves you from wiping in a bad situation. It is there to prevent bad situations. Guard should always be put on a melee dps or your highest range dps. Save very limited fights (ie, last boss of HM EC move it to the person with the bomb then move it back)

 

1. Melee dps only require to pull at 110% threat and are within melee distance so the boss gets a free hit on them. Also the tanking class do not have aggro drops or in the case of a Sin can't drop threat often.

 

2. Melee dps or highest range dps take the most damge over the course of a run. Why? 2 reasons.

A. They have threat on adds that the tank is not tanking so they are tanking them which means they take damage. Melee DPS typically end up taking a few hits due to aggro even if the range dps does more damage. (Both will take damage)

B. Alot of boss and trash have cleave, aoe bombs, stomps etc. All of these typically target the tank. If it's a moblie fight it is very hard for melee dps to not take a hit or 2 from these attacks over the course of the fight. Toth's stomp in EC for example. They can run out or just take the hit depending on how the group wants to do the fight.

 

The 5% damage reduction on the melee dps helps the healer far more then guard on them. The 5% aggro prevents accidents from wiping the raid.

 

Again this is an ability to prevent a raid from wiping NOT a "omg because a healer had guard we saved the party"

 

btw side not if dps is not killing stuff in the right order then just hit everything and let the dps pull aggro and die.

[DiLune]

I think most are missing the point of guard. Guard is not an ability that saves you from wiping in a bad situation. It is there to prevent bad situations. Guard should always be put on a melee dps or your highest range dps. Save very limited fights (ie, last boss of HM EC move it to the person with the bomb then move it back)

 

1. Melee dps only require to pull at 110% threat and are within melee distance so the boss gets a free hit on them. Also the tanking class do not have aggro drops or in the case of a Sin can't drop threat often.

 

2. Melee dps or highest range dps take the most damge over the course of a run. Why? 2 reasons.

A. They have threat on adds that the tank is not tanking so they are tanking them which means they take damage. Melee DPS typically end up taking a few hits due to aggro even if the range dps does more damage. (Both will take damage)

B. Alot of boss and trash have cleave, aoe bombs, stomps etc. All of these typically target the tank. If it's a moblie fight it is very hard for melee dps to not take a hit or 2 from these attacks over the course of the fight. Toth's stomp in EC for example. They can run out or just take the hit depending on how the group wants to do the fight.

 

The 5% damage reduction on the melee dps helps the healer far more then guard on them. The 5% aggro prevents accidents from wiping the raid.

 

Again this is an ability to prevent a raid from wiping NOT a "omg because a healer had guard we saved the party"

 

btw side not if dps is not killing stuff in the right order then just hit everything and let the dps pull aggro and die.

 

I can appreciate what you are saying, but I have been agreeing that in Ops things change because there are specialized fights in which the DR actually does help the DPS. But in an HM FP? Give me a break. If you are losing agro to DPS you are either being outgeared or don't understand threat generation, in which case go ahead and shield the DPS. But if your DPS is under 5% at any point in a HM FP either your healer hates them and hasn't healed them at all (while they haven't healed themselves between pulls) or something went terribly wrong, in which case you probably would prefer to have your healer guarded.

[Mordeguy]

So, given that you understand the crux of the argument, that threat is meaningless unless you are being overgeared, who would you rather have guarded if the crap hit the fan? The Healer. (Unless, as has been stated ad naseum, there are mechanics that make it important to guard the DPS, which won't be found in HM FP's.)

 

There isn't any point during a flashpoint or raid that the healer should ever pull aggro other than a few spread out weak mobs that the dps should wipe out first. I'd rather have my dps guarded so crap doesn't hit the fan in the first place, ya dig?

 

Even the 5% reduced damage is barely an argument good enough to warrant guard on the healer. The healer has to heal EVERYONE that takes damage. Who do you think the 5% reduction serves more, the melee dps getting hit by much more attacks or the healer getting hit by an attack now and then? Which one do you think makes it easier on the healer? 5% reduced damage on themselves or the dps that's taking a lot of hits due to mechanics?

Edited July 26, 2012 by Mordeguy

[DiLune]

There isn't any point during a flashpoint or raid that the healer should ever pull aggro other than a few spread out weak mobs that the dps should wipe out first. I'd rather have my dps guarded so crap doesn't hit the fan in the first place, ya dig?

 

Even the 5% reduced damage is barely an argument good enough to warrant guard on the healer. The healer has to heal EVERYONE that takes damage. Who do you think the 5% reduction serves more, the melee dps getting hit by much more attacks or the healer getting hit by an attack now and then? Which one do you think makes it easier on the healer? 5% reduced damage on themselves or the dps that's taking a lot of hits due to mechanics?

 

I don't think I've ever argued that there is a point where a healer should pull agro. Is there, theoretically, a point where he might? Sure. If everyone is doing their job? No. Does everyone always do their job? No.

 

I'm not arguing the healer needs the 5% DR. I am arguing that if your DPS needs 5% DR in a HM FP then you have way, way more problems than DPS not killing normals. Given that, and given that DPS shouldn't be pulling agro from you (and if you are you guard them) I would guard the healer as the default. I give a care more that they survive something horrible like an idiotic DPS pulling the next group of trash at the same time I just blew an AE taunt on the current group than I do that DPS surviving his stupidity.

 

Ops? Those are different. There you do want to guard DPS because they take enough damage regularly that the DR is very helpful. But to say, set in stone, that you always guard the DPS? That's just as lazy as always guarding the healer.

 

Boiled down: If you need to guard DPS in an HM FP...well, you shouldn't need to. In fact, you can run the whole thing without guard.

[grallmate]

I don't even USE guard half the time on my 50s. I only pop it up if I've having issues holding threat over one of my DPS or for things like FE single target phase where I rotate it around. I DO use it in HM Ops and HM LI and then I tend to use it on my highest DPS (always my raid leader who for some reason does not know what a threat drop is....).

 

Guard is a tool for tanks to use in PvE to control aggro and in PvP to control damage. People tend to get confused about how it actually works. A tank can guard whoever he likes if he isn't losing aggro to anyone and we can argue forever on who is best to guard.

 

Assuming you can hold threat without Guard: The ONLY time that you are doing it wrong is when you are using guard on the healer as a DPS(!!) in PvE. This has happened to me FAR too many times in sub-50 PUGs. Sub-50 I Guard whoever has a tanking tree so they can't use Guard and to offset them running around in tank stance.

[Mordeguy]

I don't think I've ever argued that there is a point where a healer should pull agro. Is there, theoretically, a point where he might? Sure. If everyone is doing their job? No. Does everyone always do their job? No.

 

I'm not arguing the healer needs the 5% DR. I am arguing that if your DPS needs 5% DR in a HM FP then you have way, way more problems than DPS not killing normals. Given that, and given that DPS shouldn't be pulling agro from you (and if you are you guard them) I would guard the healer as the default. I give a care more that they survive something horrible like an idiotic DPS pulling the next group of trash at the same time I just blew an AE taunt on the current group than I do that DPS surviving his stupidity.

 

Ops? Those are different. There you do want to guard DPS because they take enough damage regularly that the DR is very helpful. But to say, set in stone, that you always guard the DPS? That's just as lazy as always guarding the healer.

 

Boiled down: If you need to guard DPS in an HM FP...well, you shouldn't need to. In fact, you can run the whole thing without guard.

 

What exactly is your point? We both know guard isn't needed at all in a FP. If another group gets pulled it shouldn't take the tank and dps more than a few moments to gather them even without taunt, one attack and they are ignoring the healer. If in that time your healer dies guard will make virtually no difference, because that healer is insanely undergeared or not paying attention just like the dps.

 

I do sometimes guard a healer and don't remember saying otherwise, but it's in very specific situations and not everyday trash pulls or flashpoints where it makes no difference doing so. I will swap guard onto healers or anyone for that matter when it can make a difference. If your wipe in a FP has anything to do with guard though, you have much bigger issues with your group. Guarding a healer by default does less than guarding a dps by default, and that's why priority should always be dps.

 

In an ops guard needs to be on high threat dps, denova especially (and even lost island if we're counting other newer content) has too many fights where it's important that the boss doesn't face the group or any of the dps.

[DiLune]

Re-read the original post. He's asking why a tank would ever put guard on a healer. I'm explaining it. Lots of people are coming in saying "always guard the DPS" which is equally silly.

 

You guard who matters. If it doesn't matter, guard the guy who heals you because if it ever did matter (things went completely wrong,) he's the one I don't want to have die. That's been my attitude. The rest has been people fixating on the healer agro line.

 

And...The argument has been very clearly "Ops vs FPs." The OP is all about FPs. I know, and have stated over and over, when and why you guard a DPS in an Op.

 

Also, we will have to agree to disagree about FPs. If I wipe in an FP it will be because someone did something phenomenally stupid (pulled a fresh set of trash while we are busy fighting another and I have no taunts available) and the healer died, not because DPS pulled agro off of me. The healer has a whole lot of room to keep me alive. As long as he's alive, we win.

Edited July 26, 2012 by DiLune

[Mordeguy]

Re-read the original post. He's asking why a tank would ever put guard on a healer. I'm explaining it. Lots of people are coming in saying "always guard the DPS" which is equally silly.

 

You guard who matters. If it doesn't matter, guard the guy who heals you because if it ever did matter (things went completely wrong,) he's the one I don't want to have die. That's been my attitude. The rest has been people fixating on the healer agro line.

 

And...The argument has been very clearly "Ops vs FPs." The OP is all about FPs. I know, and have stated over and over, when and why you guard a DPS in an Op.

 

Also, we will have to agree to disagree about FPs. If I wipe in an FP it will be because someone did something phenomenally stupid (pulled a fresh set of trash while we are busy fighting another and I have no taunts available) and the healer died, not because DPS pulled agro off of me. The healer has a whole lot of room to keep me alive. As long as he's alive, we win.

 

First off, in an ongoing discussion I'm replying to what I quote, which originally was not even you. A poster listed points and I listed counter points like he wanted.

 

Second, your scenario of the dps pulling another group is changed such a tiny meaningless amount by guard the entire argument is just sort of pointless. If the healer dies in that situation guard wouldn't have saved him, as I said even without taunt there's no excuse for the tank and dps to not pick them up right away. If the healer cant survive a few seconds its because they are undergeared or not paying attention, guard will not help in either case. 5% less damage in that situation is next to nothing on impact. Your entire point about talking of FPs just weakens your argument. In an operation where consistent and predictable damage is coming in it can save a life but in a FP where the healer gets shot a couple times it does nothing. As I said If the healer cannot survive that for a few seconds guard is not going to help and your group has a problem, and if you guys can't get the mobs off the healer in a few seconds that is a group failure and not because of guard.

 

It is in no way shape or form better to guard the healer by default. Does that mean you should never guard them or not swap? No, but there is no point in doing it by default.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Mordeguy

[DiLune]

It is in no way shape or form better to guard the healer by default. Does that mean you should never guard them or not swap? No, but there is no point in doing it by default.

 

To which I counter that it is in no way shape or form better to guard the DPS by default (for every reason I've listed.) Because there is no reason to guard anyone by default. Given that I have a choice between the guy who keeps me alive and the other two guys, I go with the guy who keeps me alive. Unless one of those other two guys is so awesome he can make me guard him. Or I'm in an Op.

 

What exactly are we arguing about? The whole point of this post, (not the line item conversation) is that people say its useless to guard a healer and others say "if a tank guards the healer I votekick him out." Blah blah. That's my point. You view the DPS as more important to guard if you have to use it and I view the healer as more important because in the unlikeliest of scenarios, I'd rather have him survive in an HM FP.

[RDeanOU]

To which I counter that it is in no way shape or form better to guard the DPS by default (for every reason I've listed.) Because there is no reason to guard anyone by default. Given that I have a choice between the guy who keeps me alive and the other two guys, I go with the guy who keeps me alive. Unless one of those other two guys is so awesome he can make me guard him. Or I'm in an Op.

 

What exactly are we arguing about? The whole point of this post, (not the line item conversation) is that people say its useless to guard a healer and others say "if a tank guards the healer I votekick him out." Blah blah. That's my point. You view the DPS as more important to guard if you have to use it and I view the healer as more important because in the unlikeliest of scenarios, I'd rather have him survive in an HM FP.

 

Right, but the point that you continually ignore is that Guard is designed so that it is more likely to keep a DPS alive than a healer. You want to make it a choice about who Guard will save and you want to ignore that Guard is more likely to make a difference in one situation than in the other. That is why the argument persists. You refuse to acknowledge a basic truth about the way threat works and people get annoyed when someone refuses to acknowledge basic truths.

[DiLune]

Right, but the point that you continually ignore is that Guard is designed so that it is more likely to keep a DPS alive than a healer. You want to make it a choice about who Guard will save and you want to ignore that Guard is more likely to make a difference in one situation than in the other. That is why the argument persists. You refuse to acknowledge a basic truth about the way threat works and people get annoyed when someone refuses to acknowledge basic truths.

 

I have, repeatedly, over and over, ad naseum, etc etc said: If a DPS pulls agro off of you, guard him, her or it. I have, repeatedly, over and over, ad nauseum, etc etc said: unless you are overgeared you will not lose threat.

 

People like you, who refuse to read what people like me write, frustrate people like me and cause people like me to dig in even harder against people like you. I acknowledge that it is possible to lose threat, but counter that you will not lose threat unless you are completely overgeared.

 

Again, with feeling: If. You. Lose. Threat. Put. Guard. On. That. DPS. There, I said it. Again.

 

But since I don't lose threat, because I spent credits, comms, time, blood, sweat, tears, etc on my gear...I from this point forward won't guard anyone. Because apparently guarding the healer when the DPS can't rip agro off of me is so heinous a crime that I might be stripped of my tanking card.

 

Thank you, good day.