How to balance PvP

[fujeo-finel]

Melee Balance = Uptime + Mitigation + Burst = Zero Sum

Range Balance = Mobility + Mitigation + Burst = Zero Sum

 

That is all.

[DrkXamas]

If only it was that easy to fix. What about the Healers and the poor Resolve System?

[fujeo-finel]

If only it was that easy to fix. What about the Healers and the poor Resolve System?

 

Healing is a function of range burst. You either have burst healing (i.e. direct heals), or sustained healing (i.e. HOTS), and burst healing is more viable than sustained healing.

 

The resolve system is a function of melee uptime vs range mobility. Stuns, CC's, snares, all that kind of stuff falls under melee uptime and range mobility.

Edited July 15, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Annex]

is a function of .

 

Devil is in the detail.

[fujeo-finel]

Allow me to elaborate further.

 

Step 1. First balance total output across all classes for PvE

DPS output = Sustained DPS

Healer output = Sustained Heals

Tank output = Sustained Mitigation

 

Step 2. Balance the above for PvP like so:

Melee balance = Defence + Offence

Range balance = Defence + Offence

 

Melee defence = Mitigation

Range defence = Mitigation + Mobility

Melee offence = Burst + Uptime*

Range offence = Burst

*Uptime is (Melee mobility - Range Mobility)

 

So the above formula becomes, as stated in the OP:

Melee Balance = Uptime + Mitigation + Burst = Zero Sum

Range Balance = Mobility + Mitigation + Burst = Zero Sum

 

Following this formula:

Burst potential is balanced with less uptime/mobility or mitigation

Uptime/Mobility is balanced with less burst or mitigation

Mitigation is balanced with less burst or uptime/mobility

 

Step 3. Balance PvE encounters around the end product.

Edited July 16, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[akabane_k]

you're forgetting class utility, if all other things were balanced, i would take a shadow over a merc because of stealth, force sprint, taunt, etc.

[fujeo-finel]

you're forgetting class utility, if all other things were balanced, i would take a shadow over a merc because of stealth, force sprint, taunt, etc.

 

Stealth falls under melee mitigation and uptime.

Force Sprint falls under range mobility.

Taunt falls under melee mitigation.

[Dmasterr]

You are forgetting CC, utility... off-heals (-off role), taunts CLASS SYNERGY ->etc.

 

And taunts do not fall under mitigation because it has no effect on ppl attacking you.

 

Stealth does not mitigate damage... etc.

 

Got beat down and proved wrong across multiple threads, and every time u pick up your toys and take your bad theories in another thread?

Edited July 16, 2012 by Dmasterr

[fujeo-finel]

You are forgetting CC, utility... off-heals (-off role), taunts CLASS SYNERGY ->etc.

 

And taunts do not fall under mitigation because it has no effect on ppl attacking you.

 

Stealth does not mitigate damage... etc.

 

Got beat down and proved wrong across multiple threads, and every time u pick up your toys and take your bad theories in another thread?

 

I'm getting tired of your fail responses.

 

CC falls under mobility/uptime.

Off-heals falls under mitigation.

Taunts fall under the mitigation provided to the team, afterall, this is team game.

Stealth does mitigate damage, because you can't be targeted while stealthed.

 

You have a brain. Use it.

[Dmasterr]

I'm getting tired of your fail responses.

 

CC falls under mobility/uptime.

Only if the game were 1v1. and/or all cc was identical and/or there was no range in the game

Off-heals falls under mitigation.

Mitigation prevents damage, healing directly counters it.

Taunts fall under the mitigation provided to the team, afterall, this is team game.

You have double standards for different game mechanics.

Stealth does mitigate damage, because you can't be targeted while stealthed.

Aoe damage.

You have a brain. Use it.

 

Take your own advice and stop spreading fail over the forum based on the observations of solo q pvp, and probably 1200 rating rwz.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Dmasterr

[fujeo-finel]

Only if the game were 1v1. and/or all cc was identical and/or there was no range in the game

 

Mitigation prevents damage, healing directly counters it.

 

You have double standards for different game mechanics.

 

Aoe damage.

 

 

Take your own advice and stop spreading fail over the forum based on the observations of solo q pvp, and probably 1200 rating rwz.

 

How about instead of focussing on why I'm wrong, you focus on adding to the OP?

[Raansu]

Every time I see a thread with fujeo-finel as the OP I let out a big *sigh* and then wonder why I even open the page. You never take class utility into account or the fact that warzones are team objectives and not 1v1 deathmatches as well as dozens of other factors. In the words of the fighting game community "balance is boring" and your "vision" of balance is extremely boring. Some of the most competitive fighting games are so broken that it's actually balanced and makes for a strong competitive game. Being broken/op isn't always a bad thing. Edited July 16, 2012 by Raansu

[fujeo-finel]

But in any case...

 

Only if the game were 1v1. and/or all cc was identical and/or there was no range in the game

 

Yea, no.

 

Mitigation prevents damage, healing directly counters it.

 

Mitigation prevents a percentage of damage. Healing counters a percentage of damage.

 

You have double standards for different game mechanics.

 

That's subjective.

 

Aoe damage.

 

Only if the AoE'er knows where to aim.

[fujeo-finel]

Every time I see a thread with fujeo-finel as the OP I let out a big *sigh* and then wonder why I even open the page. You never take class utility into account or the fact that warzones are team objectives and not 1v1 deathmatches as well as dozens of other factors. In the words of the fighting game community "balance is boring" and your "vision" of balance is extremely boring. Some of the most competitive fighting games are so broken that it's actually balanced and makes for a strong competitive game. Being broken/op isn't always a bad thing.

 

If you don't care about balance then I don't care what you think.

[Dmasterr]

If you don't care about balance then I don't care what you think.

 

Oh, we... ; I care about balance, about ACTUAL balance... balance that considers every single thing a class brings to the table across all strategy and tactics in RWZ.

 

Focusing in equalizing just 1 or 2 or 3 or w/e factors and not take into consideration the other DOZEN of factors in the balancing "equation" is NOT balance.

 

Do, you need me to re-quote your fail reason that you should balance classes in PvP around 1 factor because of PvE?

[Raansu]

If you don't care about balance then I don't care what you think.

 

I care about balance in pvp, its just a simple fact that what you think should be balance would actually break the game.

[fujeo-finel]

Oh, we... ; I care about balance, about ACTUAL balance... balance that considers every single thing a class brings to the table across all strategy and tactics in RWZ.

 

Focusing in equalizing just 1 or 2 or 3 or w/e factors and not take into consideration the other DOZEN of factors in the balancing "equation" is NOT balance.

 

Fine tuning can be done after the results of the formula above are reached. It's not going to lead to perfect balance, and I never used the words "perfect balance" in the OP, but its a good start, and any effort in balancing is better than not trying at all because it's too hard.

 

Do, you need me to re-quote your fail reason that you should balance classes in PvP around 1 factor because of PvE?

 

Yea could you? I've forgotten where I said that.

 

I care about balance in pvp, its just a simple fact that what you think should be balance would actually break the game.

 

Care to elaborate on that?

Edited July 16, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Dmasterr]

Yea could you? I've forgotten where I said that.

 

Unbalanced DPS does not make for a good PvE game. All DPS should be the same, and PvP balance should be achieved through other means.

 

You are on the PvP forum.

 

You bring out PvE, when on the PvP forum talking about PvP balance. =fail.

 

Now that i think about it, you are probably trolling because people can't possible be that ....

(it is rhetorical i know they are)

Edited July 16, 2012 by Dmasterr

[fujeo-finel]

You bring out PvE, when on the PvP forum talking about PvP balance. =fail.

 

Now that i think about it, you are probably trolling because people can't possible be that ....

(it is rhetorical i know they are)

 

Seriously? You cannot be this dense. PvP balance affects PvE balance, you can't just balance one while forgetting about the other.

[Dmasterr]

Seriously? You cannot be this dense. PvP balance affects PvE balance, you can't just balance one while forgetting about the other.

 

For the last time.. PvP forum, PvP balance.

[fujeo-finel]

For the last time.. PvP forum, PvP balance.

 

Wow, you really are this dense. Just because I'm on the PvP forum doesn't mean I shouldn't take into account PvE balance when discussing PvP balance.

[pureeffinmetal]

Wow, you really are this dense. Just because I'm on the PvP forum doesn't mean I shouldn't take into account PvE balance when discussing PvP balance.

 

While the majority of this thread has been quite amusing, this point if none other is spot on. 99% of "Balance/Wish/Change" threads for Classes/Mechanics/etc are absolutely ridiculous because they only think about PVP or PVE Balance and don't think about Game Balance.

Edited July 16, 2012 by pureeffinmetal

[Dmasterr]

While the majority of this thread has been quite amusing, this point if none other is spot on. 99% of "Balance/Wish/Change" threads for Classes/Mechanics/etc are absolutely ridiculous because they only think about PVP or PVE Balance and don't think about Game Balance.

 

They are like 2 separate games.

 

And you can balance pvp without worrying about pve, because PvE is an outside factor to PvP balance but the opposite is not true. You can nerf NPC's and design encounters without affecting pvp balance, but you can not nerf/buff classes without affecting PvE.

 

Also that is why classes who are not designed solely for damage, have a predominant pvp spec and a predominant pve spec.

 

You design pvp around 1 talent tree, and pve around another. For example look at:

 

sorcs : Madness or hybrid spec for PvP ... lightning for PvE

Mercs: Pyro for PvP.........-> arsenal for PvE

Operatives : concealment PvP --> lethality PvE

 

etc.

[fujeo-finel]

They are like 2 separate games.

 

And you can balance pvp without worrying about pve, because PvE is an outside factor to PvP balance but the opposite is not true. You can nerf NPC's and design encounters without affecting pvp balance, but you can not nerf/buff classes without affecting PvE.

 

Also that is why classes who are not designed solely for damage, have a predominant pvp spec and a predominant pve spec.

 

You design pvp around 1 talent tree, and pve around another. For example look at:

 

sorcs : Madness or hybrid spec for PvP ... lightning for PvE

Mercs: Pyro for PvP.........-> arsenal for PvE

Operatives : concealment PvP --> lethality PvE

 

etc.

 

That is nothing but selfishness.

[Dmasterr]

That is nothing but selfishness.

 

No, its logic.

 

You have to be realistic and try and make sure the goals you are working towards are achievable. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and end up with a big mess where neither PvP nor PvE is balanced.

 

Look at WoW, a couple of times they had a good thing going or at least they were heading the right way... but then they gave in to forum qq-ers to make every spec the same (because of PvE ofc:rolleyes:) without regards to other factors the classes had and dug themselves so deep... that nothing can save that game now, regarding PvP. And PvE is not particularly balanced either.