Adv. Class Respec and Leveling Changes

[jepurv]

Here is my proposal:

 

Do some research. Take a look at how much money WoW makes off of Race, Name, and Faction changes. It might be worth it financially to offer similar services, including the AC respec considering that at the current moment the SWTOR system forces players to make an uninformed decision at lvl 10.

 

Advanced Class

1) Allow a once a year, per account Advanced Class respsc. (only one character, per account, per year)

a) the first respec is $10 (real money)

b) every additional respec goes up $5

c) this system maxes out at $50

This system would restrict the frequency and deter people from multiple switches (it would also make money).

 

Leveling Changes

1) Once a player hits lvl 10 they choose their first Advanced Class

2) At level 20 each player has the choice to either solidify their initial choice or switch to the other Advanced Class

3) At level 30, having had the chance to play each AC, the player must make a final decision.

 

This system could also work well at levels 10, 15, and 20 although that would be less time learning the class.

 

You could just provide blue items for class choices.

[RendValor]

That... actually doesn't sound half bad.

[uniz]

what problem are you trying to solve by doing this?

[jepurv]

what problem are you trying to solve by doing this?

 

The number one issue raised by my friends after release was the lack of choices after lvl 10. My friend did not like the sorcerer through lvls 10-15 and he re-rolled and started an assassin. By lvl 40, he was not satisfied with the assassin and wanted to go back to the sorcerer. I am in a similar boat with my 50 assassin. I simply expected to eventually enjoy the class; however, it never really developed the way I had hoped it would.

 

This caused frustration with other people in my guild as well. Eventually, people quit the game and now I am the only one left playing. I would imagine that if you conducted a poll of all the people that dropped from the game between January 2012 and February 2012 you might find that this is a common frustration, one that, in combination with the lack of other mechanical conveniences, resulted in the mass exodus from the game (we're talking hundreds of thousands of accounts). Hence, the current round of server transfers and server merges coming in August. Add to this the release of SW, GW2, and WoW Pandas and your going to see another upcoming drop is subs.

 

For some reason this is met with hostility and scorn by a certain demographic who vehemently oppose Adv. Class Respecs and I am not entirely certain why. I have yet to see a very well-thought-out argument (even from the devs) for why people should be restricted to the lvl 10 class choice when the game-mechanics prior to that choice were not indicative of what would come after.

 

I think it was a system developed with good intentions, but it is fundamentally flawed and needs revision. That is the purpose of my post. It is an attempt to provide constructive criticism of one the the fundamental aspects of the game while also providing potential fixes.

[Jaigen]

The number one issue raised by my friends after release was the lack of choices after lvl 10. My friend did not like the sorcerer through lvls 10-15 and he re-rolled and started an assassin. By lvl 40, he was not satisfied with the assassin and wanted to go back to the sorcerer. I am in a similar boat with my 50 assassin. I simply expected to eventually enjoy the class; however, it never really developed the way I had hoped it would.

 

This caused frustration with other people in my guild as well. Eventually, people quit the game and now I am the only one left playing. I would imagine that if you conducted a poll of all the people that dropped from the game between January 2012 and February 2012 you might find that this is a common frustration, one that, in combination with the lack of other mechanical conveniences, resulted in the mass exodus from the game (we're talking hundreds of thousands of accounts). Hence, the current round of server transfers and server merges coming in August. Add to this the release of SW, GW2, and WoW Pandas and your going to see another upcoming drop is subs.

 

For some reason this is met with hostility and scorn by a certain demographic who vehemently oppose Adv. Class Respecs and I am not entirely certain why. I have yet to see a very well-thought-out argument (even from the devs) for why people should be restricted to the lvl 10 class choice when the game-mechanics prior to that choice were not indicative of what would come after.

 

I think it was a system developed with good intentions, but it is fundamentally flawed and needs revision. That is the purpose of my post. It is an attempt to provide constructive criticism of one the the fundamental aspects of the game while also providing potential fixes.

 

knock this nonsense of. Their is not a single mmo where you can alter your class and for a very good reason. if they could most players would only roll 1 char. not to mention you have a huge influx of FOTM players and people who no understanding of their class as they did not advance from level 10 to 50 with it. In short it will turn into a clustermess of epic proportions/

[scottberg]

knock this nonsense of. Their is not a single mmo where you can alter your class and for a very good reason. if they could most players would only roll 1 char. not to mention you have a huge influx of FOTM players and people who no understanding of their class as they did not advance from level 10 to 50 with it. In short it will turn into a clustermess of epic proportions/

 

He is not talking about class respecs (ie Bounty Hunter to Sith Warrior), he is only talking about allowing advanced class respecs within the class you chose (ie Operative to Sniper, Commando to Vanguard, Guardian to Sentinal...ect) . I don't even think class respecs would be possible in this game given the separate storylines, companions, and gearing.

[Elrodeus]

I don't like the idea of Advanced Class respecs at all in any form. They were designed to play differently for a reason. They're supposed to be completely different classes. If anything we should be asking Bioware to distinguish them further, not meld them together my allowing you to swap between them like you simply want to change your specc.

[jepurv]

He is not talking about class respecs (ie Bounty Hunter to Sith Warrior), he is only talking about allowing advanced class respecs within the class you chose (ie Operative to Sniper, Commando to Vanguard, Guardian to Sentinal...ect) . I don't even think class respecs would be possible in this game given the separate storylines, companions, and gearing.

 

Exactly! and very limited respecs as well. I am not proposing that this should be as easy as changing a spec tree. It should cost money and be restricted temporally and per account.

 

The other interesting trend that I notice in this debate is people who make distinctions between themselves and what they call "FOTM" type players who can't play their class. This is a weak argument. If you are in a guild (and I am assuming that if you are opposite of "FOTM" then you belong to one) then you shouldn't have to worry about "FOTM" players as you are part of a schedule of events and have regular access to content with players that know how to play the game quite well.

 

Also, some players may actually get better at the game if they have the choice to switch Adv, Class and inhabit a different role.

 

Just FYI, when people tell me to "knock this nonsense of (sic)," it actually makes me want to pursue the issue further and with increased enthusiasm.

[Queen_Ultima]

It sounds interesting...

 

The paid variant: It seems a bit... Restrictive, ironically. No, I don't think people should be able to change whenever they want, but if this service becomes a monetary service then any good shareholder would demand that it be lowered from a single time per year. Plus, the increasing monetary cost means they'd only get their $50 in.... 2020. Both restraints seem mutually exclusive, more like the monetary cost is there to punish the player than to make money, and frankly the latter is what TOR needs (and was made to do ) Personally, I'd limit it to 3 times per year per account, however many characters, $25 cost per change, with a 10 day grace peroid in which to change back. (You'd also have to supply a non-vendable bound pack with the weaponry for the new AC)

 

The Levelling changes; Yes, yes, yes! This should be in the game, ASAP.

 

ACs are not classes in the MMO sense. If I play a traditional medieval MMO, and I pick a Rogue, I know that that character is a melee using stealthy character. He doesn't suddenly turn into a mage halfway through. In TOR, you can't get a true feel for any AC at the start of the game, because BW doesn't want to a) take abilities away from you, nor b) allow AC X to have AC Y's ability when it doesn't do much good for X (let alone balance issues). This system could be VERY helpful to those who found they had chosen the AC that didn't suit themselves, or worse yet, those who didn't realise how different ACs can be. Let's face it, if you're completely new to TOR, and you're playing, say, an Inquisitor and you choose Assassin, and suddenly you're a stealthing rogue instead of the mage-like class you thought you could have been. Bit extreme, yes, but that person is down the better part of 6-10 hours (I believe is the average), and that's if they realise it's the wrong class at level 12 or so. It doesn't affect anyone at 50 already, so balance isn't an issue, it's a great benefit to levelling players new to either game or archtype-class, and the only gear that needs to be changed is weaponry (which, if they provide with an unvendorable version of the level 10 orange weapon, and expect you to mod it yourself, wouldn't be a problem).

 

knock this nonsense of. Their is not a single mmo where you can alter your class and for a very good reason./

(Holding back on saying RIFT, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheResearch) By that logic, there isn't any other MMO where you select your character's archetype permanently hours after you click "create Character". All respecs do is allow you to change a choice you made with your character that didn't suit you, which is what you

Edited July 15, 2012 by Queen_Ultima

[Hizoka]

He is not talking about class respecs (ie Bounty Hunter to Sith Warrior), he is only talking about allowing advanced class respecs within the class you chose (ie Operative to Sniper, Commando to Vanguard, Guardian to Sentinal...ect) . I don't even think class respecs would be possible in this game given the separate storylines, companions, and gearing.

 

its the same thing. it is advanced CLASS, not a talent tree. The ACs are all DRASTICALLY different they are completely different classes that simply share the same story.

 

 

the QQing OP wants to go from a wow type rogue to a wow type mage. Now honestly there is no reason other then his a QQer that he would even ask for that, not event eh QQ brigade of wow asks for the ability to instantly have a brand new max level character for no reason.

[brandooon]

its the same thing. it is advanced CLASS, not a talent tree. The ACs are all DRASTICALLY different they are completely different classes that simply share the same story.

 

 

the QQing OP wants to go from a wow type rogue to a wow type mage. Now honestly there is no reason other then his a QQer that he would even ask for that, not event eh QQ brigade of wow asks for the ability to instantly have a brand new max level character for no reason.

 

it is not the same thing at all, As he said, the first 10 levels give you no indication of what the advanced classes will be like, so you are choosing blindly at level 10, i know that if advanced classes were not in the game, choosing a class is the same as choosing blindly, but this is different, this is a permanent choice you have to make once you reach level 10. When you have had no feel of the advanced classes at all, it makes perfect sense to have an option to change, even if it is an option you have to pay for.

 

some people do get to level 20-30 and realise this advanced class is not for them, are you honestly telling me that level 30's who found that they dont like their advanced class should have to go back to level 1 just to try out the other advanced class before deciding whether or not they chose the wrong initial class?

[jepurv]

its the same thing. it is advanced CLASS, not a talent tree. The ACs are all DRASTICALLY different they are completely different classes that simply share the same story.

 

 

the QQing OP wants to go from a wow type rogue to a wow type mage. Now honestly there is no reason other then his a QQer that he would even ask for that, not event eh QQ brigade of wow asks for the ability to instantly have a brand new max level character for no reason.

 

 

If the classes are as different as you claim then this is a problem. If someone has to make a permanent choice at level 10 between two completely distinct adv. classes without prior knowledge then that constitutes a design flaw. By arguing against my post in this fashion you have actually highlighted a problem with the game, not my proposal.

[coldserpent]

it is not the same thing at all, As he said, the first 10 levels give you no indication of what the advanced classes will be like, so you are choosing blindly at level 10, i know that if advanced classes were not in the game, choosing a class is the same as choosing blindly, but this is different, this is a permanent choice you have to make once you reach level 10. When you have had no feel of the advanced classes at all, it makes perfect sense to have an option to change, even if it is an option you have to pay for.

 

some people do get to level 20-30 and realise this advanced class is not for them, are you honestly telling me that level 30's who found that they dont like their advanced class should have to go back to level 1 just to try out the other advanced class before deciding whether or not they chose the wrong initial class?

 

Yes. They should go back to level 1. They gave you additional character slots. Or you can delete the character and reforge him anew. It's not impossible to level up. The advanced classes play very much different from each other(less so with the shared tree, but still having big differences), and learning them from 10-50 is part of the gaming experience.

 

You're not totally choosing blind at level 10-11, because you get the option to read what each advanced class can and cannot do before you hop in and make that choice. If you skip the reading, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you make a mistake, own up to it. They didn't force you to choose that advanced class when you made that choice. You picked it yourself. It makes no sense to just give an advanced class "do-over" because your mood changes with the winds.

[jepurv]

Yes. They should go back to level 1. They gave you additional character slots. Or you can delete the character and reforge him anew. It's not impossible to level up. The advanced classes play very much different from each other(less so with the shared tree, but still having big differences), and learning them from 10-50 is part of the gaming experience.

 

You're not totally choosing blind at level 10-11, because you get the option to read what each advanced class can and cannot do before you hop in and make that choice. If you skip the reading, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you make a mistake, own up to it. They didn't force you to choose that advanced class when you made that choice. You picked it yourself. It makes no sense to just give an advanced class "do-over" because your mood changes with the winds.

 

READING about an advanced class and learning the mechanics through gameplay experience are radically different endeavors. Thus, this argument is fundamentally flawed and also points to another flaw inherent in the system--that "reading" about an advanced class is enough for players to grasp fully the mechanics that will result from their definitive choice.

 

Thank you for your impassioned contribution to the debate, although I think your response adds a bit of weight to the need to revise the leveling experience.

 

One more thing, I don't think I'll be applying the "pick yourself up by your boot straps and stop expecting handouts" type of discourse where this game is concerned. I work extremely hard every day in my actual life. Games are meant (at least in my opinion) to be a release from that day-to-day strife. I would like to take the money that I earn, trading what little time I have left in my life, and apply it to an advanced class respec rather than going through the "same class" quest line all over again for the mere purpose of altering gameplay mechanics. But I can see how some of you younger people, with seemingly less at stake, might not grasp this entirely.

Edited July 15, 2012 by jepurv

[coldserpent]

READING about an advanced class and learning the mechanics through gameplay experience are radically different endeavors. Thus, this argument is fundamentally flawed and also points to another flaw inherent in the system--that "reading" about an advanced class is enough for players to grasp fully the mechanics that will result from their definitive choice.

 

Thank you for your impassioned contribution to the debate, although I think your response adds a bit of weight to the need to revise the leveling experience.

 

One more thing, I don't think I'll be applying the "pick yourself up by your boot straps and stop expecting handouts" type of discourse where this game is concerned. I work extremely hard every day in my actual life. Games are meant (at least in my opinion) to be a release from that day-to-day strife. I would like to take the money that I earn, trading what little time I have left in my life, and apply it to an advanced class respec rather than going through the "same class" quest line all over again for the mere purpose of altering gameplay mechanics. But I can see how some of you younger people, with seemingly less at stake, might not grasp this entirely.

 

Some of us older people also don't feel ourselves hovering over death's doorstep, nor do we feel that playing the game is a chore, those of us who use the story or little goals in game to take our mind off the "grind." Reading about the class of course, won't give you the full grasp of how to play that class. I'll grant you that. It's a quick readout of what you can do, but to be careful when making the choice. Actually experiencing it via playing will. But if you're finding yourself not liking how the class handles, you do have extra character slots available. And you can apply the past experiences of leveling up to go through the content quicker.

 

Sure, the "Advanced Respec" suggestion might be a thing of convenience, just like adding macros to the game. But they're not needed, not necessary. I vote no on Advanced Class respec options. It's a big decision/choice you make when(one choice that should matter) you decide to pick what to use, so you might as well go through with it.

 

Maybe I'm so adamant about it because I came from a generation where if you made a choice, you were expected to see it through, for good or ill, and from games like Everquest, where once you made the class choice, you don't get to hop over to another class unless you feel like using another character slot.

[ArcadianDr]

I don't see this one to be any good too... it's the same direction like that one guy starting a thread just after the release, asking for characters, allready at level 50, as he hate to waste his time, with a useless story and leveling process...

 

 

And reroll at whatever level is just what to do if you don^t like your class... it is the same from jedi to trooper as from shadow to sorc, but 10 levels that can be done in 2 hours...

[Newyankalt]

You don't haft to pick an advanced class at level 10 you can do it when your ready .

[Duduneco]

The only problem I find with this is armor. Say, you want to go from Juggernaut --> Marauder. Since the Marauder cant use heavy armor from which the juggernaut was wearing, he would have no armor to use and would have to buy/quest for the other armor type.

[Mistress_Ivi]

knock this nonsense of. Their is not a single mmo where you can alter your class and for a very good reason. if they could most players would only roll 1 char. not to mention you have a huge influx of FOTM players and people who no understanding of their class as they did not advance from level 10 to 50 with it. In short it will turn into a clustermess of epic proportions/

 

Wow, get over yourself...

 

Class and Advanced class are two *different* things.

 

The Class isn't what the OP wants changed (plus he stated a charge of real currency if they did implement it)... it's the Advanced Class you pick at level 10 - which is different.

Having played on a few servers, having to start over for various reasons - mainly due to bad decisions and lack of ability to change or customise my characters in anyway... I'd rather just start on a new server altogether than delete something I've ground up.

 

I know, for a fact, I would be far far happier if I could change my Marauder, for example, to a Juggernaught... I'd want to play them way more often... the credit costs for gear and skills alike, I'll just have to accept them.

 

The ability to change race, I'm not sure that could work... most games hard-code Gender and race to the character ID, making it impossible (although, they never explain why) to change those aspects of the character.

[Jaigen]

Wow, get over yourself...

 

Class and Advanced class are two *different* things.

 

The Class isn't what the OP wants changed (plus he stated a charge of real currency if they did implement it)... it's the Advanced Class you pick at level 10 - which is different.

Having played on a few servers, having to start over for various reasons - mainly due to bad decisions and lack of ability to change or customise my characters in anyway... I'd rather just start on a new server altogether than delete something I've ground up.

 

I know, for a fact, I would be far far happier if I could change my Marauder, for example, to a Juggernaught... I'd want to play them way more often... the credit costs for gear and skills alike, I'll just have to accept them.

 

The ability to change race, I'm not sure that could work... most games hard-code Gender and race to the character ID, making it impossible (although, they never explain why) to change those aspects of the character.

 

Their is no class just advanced classes. In WoW i my first char was a mage which i disliked so i rerolled a warlock which i did like. Despite that the classes have many similarities i was not allowed to reroll a mage to a warlock. Furthermore i played the warlock when it was considered a underpowerd class. Then BAM: buff happens and the warlock was instantly awesome. If reroll was allowed the warlock class would be flooded with FOTM players. so in short i simply do not want this to happen.

 

You say you want to reroll a marauder to jugg. Thats nice but you cannot guarantee me that you have any skill with it because you didnt learn how to manage your jugg trough level 10-50. In my opinion just roll another warrior

[Bujiko]

The reason why "advanced class" is different than a "class" in this MMO, and why advance class respecs should be an option, is the story. The two different AC's share the same story. I don't play my 50 Mercenary anymore because I find it pretty dull. The reason I am not going to re-roll a Powertech is because I have already played through the BH story. I would not be getting anything new out of it, and I would rather play one of my other characters. An AC respec would get me playing my bounty hunter agian. It is still the same "class" just a different side of it. I still dont know why people are so opposed to this.

 

I dont think an AC respec should have any limits per year, but it does need to be a paid feature as you suggested.

[Katchii]

knock this nonsense of. Their is not a single mmo where you can alter your class and for a very good reason

 

Actually there are two that I can think of off the top of my head. Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XIV.

 

FFXI did it since day 1, and it actually works very well. The issue being complete gear set switching and an overall lack of storage space.

 

It wouldn't work well in this game though. Although I honestly don't really see a reason gameplay, balance or lore wise why people can't switch between their advanced classes by visiting a trainer (not in the field).