4 combat class's / 4 social class's

Baphomet_x · July 16, 2012

Oh look, Johny made a man made of straw. How cute.
I didn't say anything about what WoW did, and I would never say that just because WoW did or did not do something TOR should follow. What I am saying is that if there are multiple games in the genre that use this aspect, are successful and enjoyed, than I see no reason to change it to a system that was used by one game that is thought by some to be the most annoying in the genre.

Again, I didn't say that. I said that groups that are nuetral are being leveraged. Both the Sith and the Republic try to make allies out of both the Voss and the Hutts.
Sure, somewhere in the galaxy are people that are beyond the notice of the Republic and The Sith.
Have they appeared in this game? No.

Well neither you or the or the original poster have put enough thought in to actually say how it should or will work, so I have full rights to come to my own conclusions.

I will tell you this. The only way to make a crafting class worthwhile is to make it the only class that can craft.

You have the worst reading comprehension I have seen in years. I have said none of this. I have said my peace about how I think SWG is a horrible game, but I actually haven't said "I don't like social classes, therefore we shouldn't have them".
I HAVE, however, said several reasons why they should not be put in that actually follows logical deduction and good game design principles, and you just ignore it because it isn't what you want to hear.

Meanwhile, the only argument you have present for the game is because you want it and you think 100,000 players will come into the game because of it, even though there aren't even that many active players on the SWG emulators.

I'm not even going to bother with you anymore unless you can begin to answer some of the questions or concerns that's been brought up.
What is it exactly that a social class brings to the game that you can't currently do?
Are social classes the only way to reach your goal?
How do you make 50 levels of content without doing the exact same thing?
How do you create stories that are not only sufficient for 50 levels, but are on par in scale and signifance with the combatant classes?
How do you keep the "wartime" feel when half of the characters in each fleet aren't even combatant?
How do you integrate them into the rest of The Old Republic without it feeling like a completly different game?

I anticipate that you won't though. You will continue, as you always have, to detract from the actual discussion about the pro's and con's of the idea, and make it purely an attack on me and that I'm this archvillain trying to ruin everyone elses fun just because I don't like it.

You're as predictable and shallow-minded as pop music.

shingi aint shallow minded....he just doesnt enjoy the over the top way some people splay there counter arguments...

now about you..pragmatic you are yes?maybe,im not too good a judge of persons....

darth dude,you gotta realise that this is the general course of things...you can argue whatever points and side you want...

but was not a mentioned part of this game since before launch,a supposidly "unrivaled" amount of immersion?storyline thats beleiveable and convincing?

some people are satisfied socializing and doing non combat things...while i respect your point about the movies...this unfortunately isnt the movies....this game doesnt really have much thats similar to the movies,we are breaking new ground here...we will eventually end up doing things no one has ever done before,this is uncharted territory,it will be awkward,and frightening at times..but the power and game solidity it offers is beyond measure

ill quote darth sidious on this one "in order to understand the greater mystery,one must take in all it`s aspects"....we need to be able to put aside ourselves and look at the entire picture,irrespective of our warrior minds

most people in the empire want to support the empire...but not everyone is capable of combat,or can actually stomach it....they might want to help the empire by uncovering ancient sith relics..or supplying the troops with a hot meal and drinks at the end of the day...they might want to make a better holocron for today`s sith on the go

and these things are great,everyone needs them,its patriotic...and it allows everyone to contribute...and the empire welcomes everyone of all creeds or races,as long as there devoted to the emporer,and the empire itself...

now as for feasability,there are two ways to make this work....either use the ideas and theory involved to make rich the storyline of a possible new class (like my sith alchemist idea,more o nthat in abit)....or,make this class non combat with the aforementioned stuff...but at the same time buffer its storyline with little bits of combat...

now im not saying that this has to actually be combat in the real sense....it could be things like working your way into an enemy base by being a cook,or an engineer or something....then reaching your target,and preparing the room with home cooked explosives or poison or the like....thats where the fun is

cause you see....the best sort of assassin is the one you least expect,and youll definitly not naturally expect the cook,or the dancer,or the archeoligist to be the assassin

i beleive sometime ago that this concept was perfected upon in the "hitman" series of console videogames

most of that game was actually non combat....it involved things you had to do to slip inside the compound,and make the kill without anyone at all noticing...then dissappearing...like one of your targets was an actor involved in a theater stage preformance...you had to spend hours settings things up to get inside and the like....one scene of this part involves one of the characters in the play being shot....with a mock up blank firing world war 2 era pistol of course

your objective was to get in there,and replace the non killing replica that was spost to be used...with a killage capable replica...you did so,and then watched as it happened,then left.....

you see that entire part involved setting up someone else to do the killing,cause in the stage play,the actor being the guy executed,was your target...and how ironically sweet that your job was to make his stage play come true no?

yet that scenario is pretty much non combat,but it involves killing...and the storyline is very well thought out and "executed" pun intended...

the 4 social classes could be the black ops (the guys you only hear rumors about them existing,but never have anything concrete on them,they differ from imperial intelligence in this aspect cause you know that imperial intelligence exists,even if your a civilian)

there job being to use there social talents,whether it be dancing,cooking,singing,or even archeology,to get inside the most over protected fortresses in existence...and killing either the fortresses or a select target from within...this would work well in situations where the rare diplomatic tension absolutely prevents brute forcing carnage.....

it could also fit well into lore...cause you notice that on rare occasion,someone the jedi are assigned to is assassinated?and the jedi are spost to be able to sense the darkside in whomever it lurks..this could also be part of the challenge,doing things apart from cutscenes in such a way as to avoid alerting the jedi,or raising there suspicion by alerting others (again looking up the hitman game may help alot here)

the four classes could also differ by the way they do things,and the amount of casualtys they inflict upon mission execution

the cook for example could be spending a good amount of time in a mission using his or her talents to win acceptance in the base (where the diplomatic angles prevent sending destroyers like sith in)....then also using there talents to make and henceforth plant non-chalant bombs,made out of everyday items...all around the place...then covering it up so it looks like a reactor explosion,or the resulting explosion is so intense as to vaporize all of the evidence,you could flavor this storyline with alot of humor and witty commentary,the light side of this could be poisoning foods in such a way as to allow the target to be smuggled out in a state of apparent death,but not actual death,the smuggler is republic after all right?

the dancer would be whom they would send after the hyper paranoid targets...cause a hyper paranoid target would be less suseptibile to the sorts of methods a cook uses...but obviously a hyper paranoid target would already have people in there inner circle that didnt like them,and wished them removed,but not through killing..

.so the dancer could cozy up to the target,becomes there freind,girlfreind,then lover..the aspects of challenge in this would be making sure the person to take the fall is nearby at the time of the kill,or even enters the room just before or just after the kill....so that naturally,the blame for the kill automatically falls on the person that was already know for heavy dislike of the target anyways...the challenge is doing things in time to make this work,i expect alot of mission objective timers here..

..you could flavor this storyline with alot of greif,sadness,and pain/remorse over what the dancer is doing...you know,tears and such...the lightside of this could be deciding at the last moment to not kill the target,but the person to take the fall comes in,and seeing the apparent attempt to kill....trys to kill the dancer,but misses and kills the target,or upon seeing the attempt to kill...is motivated finally to do it themselves,and kills the target,with security arriving just in time as planned...and killing the person that was to take the blame,or taking them into custody...you could also flavor this with the cat and mouse aspect of republic intelligence trying to follow the doings of this dancer,and avoiding republic intelligence

also another thing...the companions of these classes could be used well for the storyline...being support for the dancer for example,working them down from greif....or with the cook it could be assistence in the job,like one of the cook`s companions could have technical expertise required for hotwiring a reactor,or an electrical system

also the companions could be unique ones....that the each of them has a special ability to draw "absolute aggro"...where the companion could be taking most of the brunt,and the player character could deliver the finishing blow...this is something simple like throat cut,or back stab and so on,only able to be used on incapacitated targets near death....this could be a combat safety net,but these companions would die fairly quickly,but not too quickly....so that you could keep players from rampaging through with there companion,as its only meant to take down one alerted person...

anwyays thats my take on it,hope you like

Edited July 16, 2012 by Baphomet_x

Darth_Halford · July 16, 2012

but was not a mentioned part of this game since before launch,a supposidly "unrivaled" amount of immersion?storyline thats beleiveable and convincing?

and how do cooks and entertainers fit into a believable, convincing, and most importantly, interesting narrative in the Star Wars Universe?

I know I'm not the most fluent in Star Wars Lore by far, but I'm not aware of any prevalent books, games, what-have-you, that involve these varieties of characters.

It was also mentioned that this was to be a game of "Luke Skywalker" type stories and adventures, rather than "Uncle Owen". That's not just a hint about the scale and size of the adventure, but also certain themes that are more or less present in all of the major Star Wars narratives that we have.

some people are satisfied socializing and doing non combat things...while i respect your point about the movies...this unfortunately isnt the movies....this game doesnt really have much thats similar to the movies,we are breaking new ground here...we will eventually end up doing things no one has ever done before,this is uncharted territory,it will be awkward,and frightening at times..but the power and game solidity it offers is beyond measure

I don't recall ever actually making a point about the movies (until just now), I'm strictly talking about the feel and themes of this game.

You are right, we are breaking new ground here through anything that involves The Old Republic Era. However, through the Tales of the Jedi comics, both of the proper Knights of the Old Republic games, the KOTOR comic series (and the short off-shoot: KOTOR: War), the various novelizations of KOTOR and other Old Republic periods (Such as Darth Bane) there are already well established themes trends, and stylizations. Entertainers and Crafters don't really fit.

Sure, you may have Slyyssk, the bumbling Trandoshan cook, or "Camper" the crazed Arkanian Offshoot mechanic, but they never play a prolonged part in any story.

I'm perfectly fine with going into uncharted territory. The Old Republic already did that by being the first MMO with fully voiced characters and eight seperate class stories. The thing is that the item we're discussing is not uncharted territory; we've seen how social characters work in MMO's before like Star Wars Galaxies. Many people find them to be absolutly boring.

ill quote darth sidious on this one "in order to understand the greater mystery,one must take in all it`s aspects"....we need to be able to put aside ourselves and look at the entire picture,irrespective of our warrior minds

Just because I disagree with the idea doesn't mean I didn't look at all of the angles. I can see that if you are interested in doing one thing only that a Social Class may be appealing, but if you can do that one thing in any of the other classes that we already have, plus so many other things, what is really gained?

most people in the empire want to support the empire...but not everyone is capable of combat,or can actually stomach it....they might want to help the empire by uncovering ancient sith relics..or supplying the troops with a hot meal and drinks at the end of the day...they might want to make a better holocron for today`s sith on the go
and these things are great,everyone needs them,its patriotic...and it allows everyone to contribute...and the empire welcomes everyone of all creeds or races,as long as there devoted to the emporer,and the empire itself...

But can you make a "Luke Skywalker" story out of it, or is it an "Uncle Owen" narrative that's best left behind the scenes?

now im not saying that this has to actually be combat in the real sense....it could be things like working your way into an enemy base by being a cook,or an engineer or something....then reaching your target,and preparing the room with home cooked explosives or poison or the like....thats where the fun is

Problem being is that only works in Class Phase areas, which is a very slim minority of the content in the overall game. Between Group Phases and the overarching landscape of the planet(s), what happens? How do you even get into the Class Phase areas without fighting your way there? every other class has to.

cause you see....the best sort of assassin is the one you least expect,and youll definitly not naturally expect the cook,or the dancer,or the archeoligist to be the assassin

The best kind of assassin is the one who survives to strike again. How it's done matters little in terms of the killers skill.

i beleive sometime ago that this concept was perfected upon in the "hitman" series of console videogames
most of that game was actually non combat....it involved things you had to do to slip inside the compound,and make the kill without anyone at all noticing...then dissappearing...like one of your targets was an actor involved in a theater stage preformance...you had to spend hours settings things up to get inside and the like....one scene of this part involves one of the characters in the play being shot....with a mock up blank firing world war 2 era pistol of course
your objective was to get in there,and replace the non killing replica that was spost to be used...with a killage capable replica...you did so,and then watched as it happened,then left.....
you see that entire part involved setting up someone else to do the killing,cause in the stage play,the actor being the guy executed,was your target...and how ironically sweet that your job was to make his stage play come true no?
yet that scenario is pretty much non combat,but it involves killing...and the storyline is very well thought out and "executed" pun intended...

The problem is how do you replicate that into a Massive Multiplater Online game that still functions off of the Trinity system? It's going to feel completly seperate and foriegn from the main classes that we have, and players usually don't respond well to that.

the 4 social classes could be the black ops (the guys you only hear rumors about them existing,but never have anything concrete on them,they differ from imperial intelligence in this aspect cause you know that imperial intelligence exists,even if your a civilian)

there job being to use there social talents,whether it be dancing,cooking,singing,or even archeology,to get inside the most over protected fortresses in existence...and killing either the fortresses or a select target from within...this would work well in situations where the rare diplomatic tension absolutely prevents brute forcing carnage.....

it could also fit well into lore...cause you notice that on rare occasion,someone the jedi are assigned to is assassinated?and the jedi are spost to be able to sense the darkside in whomever it lurks..this could also be part of the challenge,doing things apart from cutscenes in such a way as to avoid alerting the jedi,or raising there suspicion by alerting others (again looking up the hitman game may help alot here)

the four classes could also differ by the way they do things,and the amount of casualtys they inflict upon mission execution

the cook for example could be spending a good amount of time in a mission using his or her talents to win acceptance in the base (where the diplomatic angles prevent sending destroyers like sith in)....then also using there talents to make and henceforth plant non-chalant bombs,made out of everyday items...all around the place...then covering it up so it looks like a reactor explosion,or the resulting explosion is so intense as to vaporize all of the evidence,you could flavor this storyline with alot of humor and witty commentary,the light side of this could be poisoning foods in such a way as to allow the target to be smuggled out in a state of apparent death,but not actual death,the smuggler is republic after all right?

the dancer would be whom they would send after the hyper paranoid targets...cause a hyper paranoid target would be less suseptibile to the sorts of methods a cook uses...but obviously a hyper paranoid target would already have people in there inner circle that didnt like them,and wished them removed,but not through killing..

.so the dancer could cozy up to the target,becomes there freind,girlfreind,then lover..the aspects of challenge in this would be making sure the person to take the fall is nearby at the time of the kill,or even enters the room just before or just after the kill....so that naturally,the blame for the kill automatically falls on the person that was already know for heavy dislike of the target anyways...the challenge is doing things in time to make this work,i expect alot of mission objective timers here..

..you could flavor this storyline with alot of greif,sadness,and pain/remorse over what the dancer is doing...you know,tears and such...the lightside of this could be deciding at the last moment to not kill the target,but the person to take the fall comes in,and seeing the apparent attempt to kill....trys to kill the dancer,but misses and kills the target,or upon seeing the attempt to kill...is motivated finally to do it themselves,and kills the target,with security arriving just in time as planned...and killing the person that was to take the blame,or taking them into custody...you could also flavor this with the cat and mouse aspect of republic intelligence trying to follow the doings of this dancer,and avoiding republic intelligence

also another thing...the companions of these classes could be used well for the storyline...being support for the dancer for example,working them down from greif....or with the cook it could be assistence in the job,like one of the cook`s companions could have technical expertise required for hotwiring a reactor,or an electrical system

also the companions could be unique ones....that the each of them has a special ability to draw "absolute aggro"...where the companion could be taking most of the brunt,and the player character could deliver the finishing blow...this is something simple like throat cut,or back stab and so on,only able to be used on incapacitated targets near death....this could be a combat safety net,but these companions would die fairly quickly,but not too quickly....so that you could keep players from rampaging through with there companion,as its only meant to take down one alerted person...

anwyays thats my take on it,hope you like

It's not a bad idea. It would actually be an interesting play dynamic....in another game. What you've basically described is a single player espionage game (like you already cited, Hitman). When all of the other classes function by action keys and triggering various abilities, these prospective classes do niether. Because of that, it's hard to imagine them interacting with other classes beyond /dance or providing items on the GTN. Again, that's something that every character already does or can do.

How do you do flashpoints or warzones with these classes? In a game that otherwhise is a huge proponent that everything is accessible to everyone, having classes that are off limits to huge swaths of content is going to be very problematic.

There's also the case of believability that you mentioned earlier. Could you really believe a Sith Lord or a Jedi Knight being downed by poison in their food?

Even if you do manage to feed it to them, there are well known Force Techniques to purge poison from the system. The only story that comes to mind about a cook being a profound hero is Under Siege, and that's a Steven Segal action brawl.

Shingara · July 16, 2012

Oh look, Johny made a man made of straw. How cute.
I didn't say anything about what WoW did, and I would never say that just because WoW did or did not do something TOR should follow. What I am saying is that if there are multiple games in the genre that use this aspect, are successful and enjoyed, than I see no reason to change it to a system that was used by one game that is thought by some to be the most annoying in the genre.

Ow look ma, the man who cant actually make an argument started insulting ha ha. So then genius show me what games arnt flops and can be copied from that you shall aprove of. BTW sandbox mmos are just as big as a genre as themepark. And as no other games in the market have tried this beyond swg then who is to say it works or not, at one point team death match was not an aspect of mmo's but now arenas are one of the best gameplay elements of mmo pvp. To not do something because others havnt is against what everyone is calling for when it comes to this game having new and improved features from the genre as a whole not just themepark.

Again, I didn't say that. I said that groups that are nuetral are being leveraged. Both the Sith and the Republic try to make allies out of both the Voss and the Hutts.
Sure, somewhere in the galaxy are people that are beyond the notice of the Republic and The Sith.
Have they appeared in this game? No.

Now this is where you fall flat on your face again, Who has said anything about a 3rd faction, the hutts and the voss are still neutral, they dont take sides, some people within the race may limp to one side or the other based on there own beliefs or profit but the factions's as a whole are still neutral. So have they appeared, yes they have as you named 2 of them. Then you the races, we have human, zebrak and cyborg and i think twi'lek, all neutral. The rest are neutral via proxy of legacy unlock.

Well neither you or the or the original poster have put enough thought in to actually say how it should or will work, so I have full rights to come to my own conclusions.

Ow look and another insult, if you actually read my posts instead of stamping feet and throwing the teddy about its to much like what swg had in there game you would see i have covered your replys many many many times.

I will tell you this. The only way to make a crafting class worthwhile is to make it the only class that can craft.

And have i said anything about making a crafting class, no i have not, i have stated that allow the social class's to craft social armour. Now i know this must be hard for you to understand but lets take this slowly. social class can make adaptive armour that you can purchase upon social vendors. They would have the ability to reverse engineer event armour and then create it for retail in the future.

This would have no effect on the crafting that is within game, the armour type is already in game, not craftable now and it is a way to introduce future adaptive armour for retail on the gtn in the future.

You have the worst reading comprehension I have seen in years. I have said none of this. I have said my peace about how I think SWG is a horrible game, but I actually haven't said "I don't like social classes, therefore we shouldn't have them".
I HAVE, however, said several reasons why they should not be put in that actually follows logical deduction and good game design principles, and you just ignore it because it isn't what you want to hear.

Ow look another insult, so weak. And yet again references to swg, what does this have todo with swg, swg was not the only game in the history of mankind to have entertainer gameplay within them, the only difference is that swg was the only one that dared put it into a mainstream mmo, so say again which other mmo has done this. Dont forget you were stating before that we were trying to 'nge' swtor when infact the 'nge' was the method to turn swg into a themepark game.

Meanwhile, the only argument you have present for the game is because you want it and you think 100,000 players will come into the game because of it, even though there aren't even that many active players on the SWG emulators.

And the only argument you have come up with is that you dont want it, and as for an emulator they are illegal and to advertise that as an alternative is actually against your eula here.

I'm not even going to bother with you anymore unless you can begin to answer some of the questions or concerns that's been brought up.
What is it exactly that a social class brings to the game that you can't currently do?
It brings into the game an alternaitve gamestyle within the game not currently available within any mmo on the market, it expandes the roleplaying aspects of the game and helps to build community and populate fleet bars and currently unused social hubs on planets.
Are social classes the only way to reach your goal?
Yes they are as the only playable aspect at the moment is dependant on taking a combatant role within the star wars universe, there is no facilitation of the gameplay within the game without access to these templates that social armour pertains us to be able to achieve.
How do you make 50 levels of content without doing the exact same thing?
Why do they have to goto level 50 exactly, they dont have to have the same level constraints as a combatant player as there gameplay isnt dependednt on ilvl of gear and stats stacking to overcome a pve or pvp enviroment. They could quite simply have a modified version of social xp, when they entertain or play in the required gamestyle they gain social xp, instead of having 10 social levels they have 50 levels based on that, Every 5 levels of there rank could simply equal 1 level of the combatants social rank. And there levels simply a way to populate talent points for there talent trees.
How do you create stories that are not only sufficient for 50 levels, but are on par in scale and signifance with the combatant classes?
Class storys can be simply class missions to gain companions through none combat missions that just place you within the lore of the game, With them having no need for combat roles they dont have to worry about stat stacking and they could gain different stats to improve there entertainer and social armour crafting. Companions could be gained via accessing new areas and they are not locked from space combat.
How do you keep the "wartime" feel when half of the characters in each fleet aren't even combatant?
How do you integrate them into the rest of The Old Republic without it feeling like a completly different game?
You intergrate them into the game in the sense that they are living in the worlds created for the game, they dont take a pivital role in the war or any combatant roles within pvp or pve, If they are factioned they could take there role as a spy syndicate part of there faction gathering intel for there faction whilst not actualy engaging in combat of any kind and if neutral could play both sides off as information brokers which would actually allow them to have greater access and more indepth story missions then chars limited to one side..

Answers in red.

I anticipate that you won't though. You will continue, as you always have, to detract from the actual discussion about the pro's and con's of the idea, and make it purely an attack on me and that I'm this archvillain trying to ruin everyone elses fun just because I don't like it.

You're as predictable and shallow-minded as pop music.

And yet another insult, its so wierd how the fall back of people when they have no real debating point on an issue is to revert to sleeze.

And i shall reply to this,

But can you make a "Luke Skywalker" story out of it, or is it an "Uncle Owen" narrative that's best left behind the scenes?

This is about being a lando calrissian or the entertainers that played for jabba. this is about being a twi'lek slave dancer or a musician throwing out tunes from the star wars music libary and grouping up with other musicians and dancers to enhance the game music and the areas that they would be performing in, earning there way supplying small buffs to players and possibly increasing there rested xp within social areas, selling social gear and just having fun cos thats how they like to play.

This gameplay cannot be done via a combatant role, the combatant roles require to level via combatant activities, it is false of you to state that we can do this with the class's we have now. We cannot be a jukebox, we cannot craft social armour, we have no reason to ever enter a bar for a social reason nor dance and we cannot play instruments and play music with others, we cannot attain new dances and the things like the glitterball would be perfect for this. There is no draw for social none aggressive actions within the game. NONE at all. And adding this would not take anything away from the combatant part of the game but it would enhance the game alot more then just stacking pve and pvp content only.

If there comes a time that player housing comes into play and architects are required or furniture makers etc this is the class the stuff could be dropped onto without impacting on the combatant class's forcing them to drop there own crafting skills to try and cover as much as the game as possible. When pazzak gets intoruduced (touch wood) something like that could also be tacked onto this class and allow them to be mobile casino dealers. They could even be the class that run guild buildings/ships and any future content they need to tac onto the players but do not wish to fiddle with the combatant class's.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Shingara

Darth_Halford · July 16, 2012

Who has said anything about a 3rd faction

you did.

the hutts and the voss are still neutral, they dont take sides, some people within the race may limp to one side or the other based on there own beliefs or profit but the race's as a whole are still neutral. So have they appeared, yes they have as you named 2 of them.

There's more to it than that. The Voss not only don't side with either group, they generally don't trust them. How do you explain a society that doesn't trust outsiders to suddenly start trading or entertaining for them?

The tired "individual" or "exception to the rule" argument? How does that work out when you have tens of thousands of "exceptions" the rule?

At that point it becomes a new rule that breaks the supposed cultural norms that were already set up.

And have i said anything about making a crafting class, no i have not, i have stated that allow the social class's to craft social armour. Now i know this must be hard for you to understand but lets take this slowly. social class can make adaptive armour that you can purchase upon social vendors. They would have the ability to reverse engineer event armour and then create it for retail in the future.
This would have no effect on the crafting that is within game, the armour type is already in game and it is a way to introduce future adaptive armour for retail on the gtn in the future.

No effect also means no purpose.

Why make a class that is nothing more than an NPC?

. Dont forget you were stating before that we were trying to 'nge' swtor when infact the 'nge' was the method to turn swg into a themepark game.

I was saying that and I stand by what I said, and it's funny that even explaining it several times, you STILL completly missed what I was saying.

The New Game Experience was a radical departure from what the game was supposed to be.

You are proposing something that is a radical departure from what this game is supposed to be.

Therefore, what you are proposing is the same as The New Game Exerience.

This has nothing to do about making something more or less themepark or sandbox, and all about what the game IS, and what you are trying to make it be.

And the only argument you have come up with is that you dont want it, and as for an emulator they are illegal and to advertise that as an alternative is actually against your eula here.

Except I haven't actually said that. I wasn't advertising the emulator at all. I was simply stating that your magical number of 100,000 players being interesting in this idea is simply a figment of your imagination.

It brings into the game an alternaitve gamestyle within the game not currently available within any mmo on the market, it expandes the roleplaying aspects of the game and helps to build community and populate fleet bars and currently unused social hubs on planets.

No it does not. Any roleplaying aspects that can be brought about with a social class can already be brought about with any of the other classes.

There are ways to utilize the social hubs without having to make entirely new classes.

Yes they are as the only playable aspect at the moment is dependant on taking a combatant role within the star wars universe, there is no facilitation of the gameplay within the game without access to these templates that social armour pertains us to be able to achieve.

This doesn't synchronize well with what you said above. If the reason you are presenting the class is to be better facilitate roleplaying and socialization, than being a combatant class shouldn't matter. If it does matter, than that should have been stated sooner.

Why do they have to goto level 50 exactly, they dont have to have the same level constraints as a combatant player as there gameplay isnt dependednt on ilvl of gear and stats stacking to overcome a pve or pvp enviroment.

Because the game needs to function on equivalancies. It's a strong foundation of game design, that while the player may have different choices in how they play the game, they should be given equal opportunity and equal ammount of content regardless of what choice they made.

A player should not feel "punished" because their character will only ever be able to be half as high of a level character as someone else just because of the class they chose.

You intergrate them into the game in the sense that they are living in the worlds created for the game, they dont take a pivital role in the war or any combatant roles within pvp or pve, If they are factioned they could take there role as a spy syndicate part of there faction gathering intel for there faction whilst not actualy engaging in combat of any kind.

Except for the fact that they aren't. You have a bunch of hedonists that do nothing but reside in bars and cantina's. It's the only hub a noncombatant class could ever access.

And there's still the point that if all classes are equal, you're going to see just as many dancers as you are going to see soldiers. Just as many characters that create social gear as there are that use lightsabers, in a game that is supposed to be about war and conflict.

This is about being a lando calrissian or the entertainers that played for jabba. this is about being a twilek slave dancer or a musician throwing out tunes from the star wars music libary, earning there way supplying small buffs to players and possibly increasing there rested xp within social areas, selling social gear and just having fun cos thats how they like to play.

And this is what I've been getting at earlier about things not fitting. What you are describing and suggesting is exactly what Bioware said this game is not supposed to be.

This gameplay cannot be done via a combatant role, the combatant roles require to level via combatant activities, it is false of you to state that we can do this with the class's we have now. We cannot be a jukebox, we cannot craft social armour, we have no reason to ever enter a bar for a social reason nor dance and we cannot play instruments and play music with others, we cannot attain new dances and the things like the glitterball would be perfect for this. There is no draw for social none aggressive actions within the game. NONE at all. And ading this would not take anything away from the combatant part of the game but it would enhance the game alot more then just stacking pve and pvp content only.

It takes away more than you're willing to admit. Not only is there the not fitting with established themes and mechanics which you have repeatedly ignored, but there is also the economic concept of Opportunity Costs. The time spent on something that was never supposed to be in the game in the first place can not be spent on something that is.

There already is a jukebox, you can already buy social armor, and while you may be correct about not being a one man band, that sort of thing doesn't belong here (as has already been stated)

How does /dance (or whatever method you want to use) somehow equate to being social?

Being social has a more connotative meaning of engaging in a friendly conversation with someone, and you can do that with any other player from any place in the server.

Shingara · July 16, 2012

you did.

You think someone who is neutral is a totally different faction, ok then. No its not. Neutral means you have taken no side. Your not affiliated to the hutts, voss, republic or imperials.

There's more to it than that. The Voss not only don't side with either group, they generally don't trust them. How do you explain a society that doesn't trust outsiders to suddenly start trading or entertaining for them?
The tired "individual" or "exception to the rule" argument? How does that work out when you have tens of thousands of "exceptions" the rule?
At that point it becomes a new rule that breaks the supposed cultural norms that were already set up.

And again your talking about factions and not an individual person who belong to a perticular race. But lets get to your point on voss shall we, so how do we start trading with and entertaining them, quite simple in the case of the voss, both factions were invited there and have bases in vos-kaa, they allow none affiliated traders there and entertainers. surly you have played the game and realise this.

No effect also means no purpose.
Why make a class that is nothing more than an NPC?

That makes absolutly no sense, what your stating is that people who spend all day on the fleet doing not alot are just being npcs, so in that sense lets delete the fleets. A social player having no effect on your gameplay if you do not wish to engage with them is not in some way making them an npc.

I was saying that and I stand by what I said, and it's funny that even explaining it several times, you STILL completly missed what I was saying.
The New Game Experience was a radical departure from what the game was supposed to be.
You are proposing something that is a radical departure from what this game is supposed to be.
Therefore, what you are proposing is the same as The New Game Exerience.
This has nothing to do about making something more or less themepark or sandbox, and all about what the game IS, and what you are trying to make it be.

So what your actualy stating is that this is a good idea, as the original concept of swg was a game that allowed you to be anything you wanted within the sw universe, what you stating is that you dont want to nge the game thus you want to unlock the potential gameplay elements within the game and unlock the mantra of themepark only. Think about that next time before answering. Because this isnt a radical departure from anything in the game, no class's would be deleted, no combatant roles would be adjusted and no skills or builds would be deletd or adjusted because social classes were implimented.

Except I haven't actually said that. I wasn't advertising the emulator at all. I was simply stating that your magical number of 100,000 players being interesting in this idea is simply a figment of your imagination.

And i am stating that the emulator is illegal, untrusted and unfinshed. I am also basing the 100k figure on the number of people who actualy stopped playing swg when social class's were ditched, so that is a rough estimate of the playerbase back then that were activly interest and playing that gamestyle.

But here is a fact you cant get away from. without doing it you gain no new potential subscribers for that element of gameplay.

No it does not. Any roleplaying aspects that can be brought about with a social class can already be brought about with any of the other classes.
There are ways to utilize the social hubs without having to make entirely new classes.

No they cannot as i have already stated the only type of gameplay within this game and others like wow is a combatant role, there are no social only aspects to these games. There hasnt been since swg destroyed them. And there are no ways to enhance social zones on planets that is self maintained by players.

This doesn't synchronize well with what you said above. If the reason you are presenting the class is to be better facilitate roleplaying and socialization, than being a combatant class shouldn't matter. If it does matter, than that should have been stated sooner.

How does it not exactly, please explain this to me because you obviously dont understand the difference between combatant and none combatant roles within a game. The tools that are given to a social only class could never be given to a combatant class without redesigning the whole of the combatant classes.

Because the game needs to function on equivalancies. It's a strong foundation of game design, that while the player may have different choices in how they play the game, they should be given equal opportunity and equal ammount of content regardless of what choice they made.
A player should not feel "punished" because their character will only ever be able to be half as high of a level character as someone else just because of the class they chose.

Player A would not be limited from doing what player B does. If a player creates a tank class with no healing abilities are they somehow deprived of what another class can do, no they can play with a healer or create a second char who is a healer to enjoy that aspect of the game. Just in the same way a player who has a combatant class could simply create a social class to alternate the gameplay between chars, a social class would have no balancing issues with combatant classes. we have more then one char slot so what you say isnt viable as an argument.

Except for the fact that they aren't. You have a bunch of hedonists that do nothing but reside in bars and cantina's. It's the only hub a noncombatant class could ever access.
And there's still the point that if all classes are equal, you're going to see just as many dancers as you are going to see soldiers. Just as many characters that create social gear as there are that use lightsabers, in a game that is supposed to be about war and conflict.

You counter yourself here, your now stating that the social classes would out number the combatant class which in that statement your saying that this would not only be a good investment for bioware development but also the fact that your stating my guess of around 100k players wanting this as grossly undervaluing this concept.

And this is what I've been getting at earlier about things not fitting. What you are describing and suggesting is exactly what Bioware said this game is not supposed to be.

Please show me where bioware said that.

It takes away more than you're willing to admit. Not only is there the not fitting with established themes and mechanics which you have repeatedly ignored, but there is also the economic concept of Opportunity Costs. The time spent on something that was never supposed to be in the game in the first place can not be spent on something that is.
There already is a jukebox, you can already buy social armor, and while you may be correct about not being a one man band, that sort of thing doesn't belong here (as has already been stated)

So what your suggesting is that nothing new is ever to be developed for swtor, nothing fresh, no concepts to be developed and no features that have not already been proven in other mmos. And what mechanics and and themes are you refering to here exactly, is it the themepark and sandbox themes by chance becuase im pritty sure the mantra for this game is pushing the boundrys for a unique game.

How does /dance (or whatever method you want to use) somehow equate to being social?
Being social has a more connotative meaning of engaging in a friendly conversation with someone, and you can do that with any other player from any place in the server.

Being able to play in a social manner interacting with other entertainers and form groups where players have the ability to play different instruments and have different dances, be able to create different effects togo with what they are doing like lights and special effects, to be able to buff players rested xp at a faster rate whilst combatnat players are enjoying the entertainment, being able to buff presense buffs for example onto players who are given a show cannot be done by typing /dance.

Being a part of the game to actualy encourage breaks from normal gameplay and interact with people in social hubs like cantinas and bars are not incentivised at this moment in time so again, these concepts are far reaching and enjoyable for alot of people. They popualte normally unpopulated areas within mmos and give another aspect to an mmo that enhances the appeal of the game to a larger audiance.

And at the end of the day if you dont like them dont play them, but dont for one second try to deprive a part of the payerbase and community outside of the game an aspect of the game simply because they dont fit your ideals of this perfect little war you have in your own mind.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Shingara

Darth_Halford · July 16, 2012

That makes absolutly no sense, what your stating is that people who spend all day on the fleet doing not alot are just being npcs, so in that sense lets delete the fleets. A social player having no effect on your gameplay if you do not wish to engage with them is not in some way making them an npc.

Except I'm not. 0-1

I'm saying that if the only thing an entire class can do is the same as an NPC, than just keep the NPC's.

What individuals do is moot point: the class only has the potential to do one thing, whereas all of the classes we have now have the potential to do several.

So what your actualy stating is that this is a good idea, as the original concept of swg was a game that allowed you to be anything you wanted within the sw universe, what you stating is that you dont want to nge the game thus you want to unlock the potential gameplay elements within the game and unlock the mantra of themepark only. Think about that next time before answering. Because this isnt a radical departure from anything in the game, no class's would be deleted, no combatant roles would be adjusted and no skills or builds would be deletd or adjusted because social classes were implimented.

Except i'm not. 0-2

Nowhere did I say if the idea was good or bad. All I've ever said is that it doesn't belong in this game.

And i am stating that the emulator is illegal, untrusted and unfinshed. I am also basing the 100k figure on the number of people who actualy stopped playing swg when social class's were ditched, so that is a rough estimate of the playerbase back then that were activly interest and playing that gamestyle.

Right, because every single one of those players is going to be interested in a predominantly themepark game that has a few character where you can roleplay cantina rats, and pay money for it.

That's unrealistic in my opinion.

But here is a fact you cant get away from. without doing it you gain no new potential subscribers for that element of gameplay.

The Old Republic is still the 2nd most popular MMO out there, so I see no reason to deviate from the current strategy.

Also considering that there are several mmo's that don't touch that element of gameplay at all and are successful, clearly this isn't a necessary submarket to tap into.

I'd also wager that it's not a very large one, or else somebody would have tried by now.

Player A would not be limited from doing what player B does. If a player creates a tank class with no healing abilities are they somehow deprived of what another class can do, no they can play with a healer or create a second char who is a healer to enjoy that aspect of the game. Just in the same way a player who has a combatant class could simply create a social class to alternate the gameplay between chars, a social class would have no balancing issues with combatant classes. we have more then one char slot so what you say isnt viable as an argument.

It's absolutly a valid argument. With any one character, I can go do warzones, flashpoints, engage in a long 3 act narrative, progress to level 50, do operations, do Heroic missions with up to three friends or total strangers, advance my Light Side/Dark Side score, improve my Legacy, and so on.

Social characters do none of this. That's unequal, and thus players are going to feel it as being unfair. I shouldn't have to change to a different character just to play a certain type of content.

However, a player has to change from a social character to a combatant anytime he wants to do anything in the game as originally intended, and that's not good.

You counter yourself here, your now stating that the social classes would out number the combatant class which in that statement your saying that this would not only be a good investment for bioware development but also the fact that your stating my guess of around 100k players wanting this as grossly undervaluing this concept.

Except I'm not. 0-3

I'm stating a hypothetical idea based on the Theory of Large Numbers. "IF" should have been a good clue. IF all classes were played equal ammounts by equal ammount of players (and the Theory of Large Numbers states that the larger your value set, the closer it will be to equal distribution), you would see just as many noncombatants as you would combatants, in a game that is all about war.

Please show me where bioware said that.

Predev forum, was a statement made by Daniel Erickson. Can't find the actual quote, but he does exactly use the "Luke Skywalker v. Uncle Owen story" comparison.

So what your suggesting is that nothing new is ever to be developed for swtor, nothing fresh, no concepts to be developed and no features that have not already been proven in other mmos. And what mechanics and and themes are you refering to here exactly, is it the themepark and sandbox themes by chance becuase im pritty sure the mantra for this game is pushing the boundrys for a unique game.

Except I'm not. 0-4

I'm stating economic fundamenals. If you work on adding things to the game that weren't supposed to be there, you can't work on the things that are. That's not to say that they shouldn't try things that have never been done before or that they should never develop new content.

What it is saying is that there are things that this game is already trying to do that can be done better, or simply have more of.

It does not make any kind of logical or economical sense to spend all of that time and money on something entirely different when it can be spent improving what we already have.

And at the end of the day if you dont like them dont play them, but dont for one second try to deprive a part of the payerbase and community outside of the game an aspect of the game simply because they dont fit your ideals of this perfect little war you have in your own mind.

I don't have to. With the way that you set it up, Bioware will NEVER bite at it. The aspect you're talking about was never going to be a focus of this game.

This isn't a sandbox MMO. This is not the kind of game that you "live" in, and just because you pay money for it doesn't mean that this is negotiable.

This is not the game you are looking for. Move Along.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Darth_Halford

RAZIMx · July 16, 2012

4 classes which are non-combat would bloat character selection for a niche selection. It'd be good for RPers but if they were going to add a purely social class it'd be more likely 1 class ('socialite'/citizen) at character creation with a larger number of advanced classes. You'd choose the character ability set there rather than having it all up front.

Another way to look at social classes. What if social classes were added to all combat characters but added an optional layer to their character? Each character would have a combat class and a social class attributed to them. Social rank could unlock more than just the adaptive gear vendors (before Legacy becomes available).

They could choose this extended social class, which would be themed off their advanced class. Maybe each could provide unique abilities (not just emotes) that are useful while investigating the world. They wouldn't give you any sort of combat advantage but could make drastic quality of life changes for your character.

e.g. Sith Sorceror

- - Sith Alchemist

Has bonus research trees for Biochem, Investigation, Diplomacy, etc.

Social class trade-related player crit buffs. (only one social buff active at a time)

- - Sith Archeologist

Has bonus research trees for Archeology, Artifice, Treasure Hunting, etc.

Social class trade-related player crit buffs. (only one social buff active at a time)

Edited July 16, 2012 by RAZIMx

HolyMamamia · July 16, 2012

Except I'm not. 0-1
I'm saying that if the only thing an entire class can do is the same as an NPC, than just keep the NPC's.
What individuals do is moot point: the class only has the potential to do one thing, whereas all of the classes we have now have the potential to do several.

Except i'm not. 0-2
Nowhere did I say if the idea was good or bad. All I've ever said is that it doesn't belong in this game.

Right, because every single one of those players is going to be interested in a predominantly themepark game that has a few character where you can roleplay cantina rats, and pay money for it.
That's unrealistic in my opinion.

The Old Republic is still the 2nd most popular MMO out there, so I see no reason to deviate from the current strategy.
Also considering that there are several mmo's that don't touch that element of gameplay at all and are successful, clearly this isn't a necessary submarket to tap into.
I'd also wager that it's not a very large one, or else somebody would have tried by now.

It's absolutly a valid argument. With any one character, I can go do warzones, flashpoints, engage in a long 3 act narrative, progress to level 50, do operations, do Heroic missions with up to three friends or total strangers, advance my Light Side/Dark Side score, improve my Legacy, and so on.
Social characters do none of this. That's unequal, and thus players are going to feel it as being unfair. I shouldn't have to change to a different character just to play a certain type of content.
However, a player has to change from a social character to a combatant anytime he wants to do anything in the game as originally intended, and that's not good.

Except I'm not. 0-3
I'm stating a hypothetical idea based on the Theory of Large Numbers. "IF" should have been a good clue. IF all classes were played equal ammounts by equal ammount of players (and the Theory of Large Numbers states that the larger your value set, the closer it will be to equal distribution), you would see just as many noncombatants as you would combatants, in a game that is all about war.

Predev forum, was a statement made by Daniel Erickson. Can't find the actual quote, but he does exactly use the "Luke Skywalker v. Uncle Owen story" comparison.

Except I'm not. 0-4
I'm stating economic fundamenals. If you work on adding things to the game that weren't supposed to be there, you can't work on the things that are. That's not to say that they shouldn't try things that have never been done before or that they should never develop new content.
What it is saying is that there are things that this game is already trying to do that can be done better, or simply have more of.
It does not make any kind of logical or economical sense to spend all of that time and money on something entirely different when it can be spent improving what we already have.

I don't have to. With the way that you set it up, Bioware will NEVER bite at it. The aspect you're talking about was never going to be a focus of this game.
This isn't a sandbox MMO. This is not the kind of game that you "live" in, and just because you pay money for it doesn't mean that this is negotiable.

This is not the game you are looking for. Move Along.

Darth_Halford -- Thank you for the post, absolutely filled with your thoughts and opinions!! :-)

This post will not delve into the details of a social class/crew skills, after reading the above I feel you expressed extremely well why you believe this type of game play does not belong in this game. Below being my response.

If BioWare does implement some type of Social Skills/Classes this game will benefit from it. Adding variety in options is usually positive results. There are people who play,only PvP and people who only PvE , some who do both.

--- Adding additional activities is only going to increase interest. Most gamers understand there are 2 different games, * The grind to a max level * * gearing out at the max level* Adding content to do along the way, and at the top, while the content that is already implemented is not broken, can not be a bad thing. --- If you don't agree please quote this and respond.

Social classes do not appeal to everyone, but they do appeal to some. Just like continual crafting. This game should not change its core, but it should strongly consider adding this as an option.

BioWare has been, as far as I know, solid when dealing with patches and adding new content that works. Hopefully this game will get through multiple expansions, and add content as well as fix it.

MMO's are about having a second life, it's sad to say but that's why we play. There is a different level of intelligence(or stupidity), teamwork and effort in mmo gameplay.

As always please post your response's any opinions, comments, suggestions or idea's are welcome here. Thank you for reading and participating.

Shingara · July 17, 2012

Except I'm not. 0-1
I'm saying that if the only thing an entire class can do is the same as an NPC, than just keep the NPC's.
What individuals do is moot point: the class only has the potential to do one thing, whereas all of the classes we have now have the potential to do several.

LoL, just lol. lets look at this shall we, combat class's do exactly the same thing as npcs, they attack, talk to each other and are defeated, so if your now stating a player has to do everything an npc cant and do nothing an npc can then you have just defeated your own argument.

so 1-0

Except i'm not. 0-2
Nowhere did I say if the idea was good or bad. All I've ever said is that it doesn't belong in this game.

And you did say it was a good idea, if your stating that social only players would outnumber combat only players. cant have it both ways.

2-0

Right, because every single one of those players is going to be interested in a predominantly themepark game that has a few character where you can roleplay cantina rats, and pay money for it.
That's unrealistic in my opinion.

Who said anything about all of those players exactly, and people pay money to have a sparkle horse so yes people will pay to play a game where they spend all there time in a cantina, they do it now in other games. And you somehow stating that if you want that then play a pirated lucas arts game is somehow justified then go ahead and see what happens, say it again.

The Old Republic is still the 2nd most popular MMO out there, so I see no reason to deviate from the current strategy.
Also considering that there are several mmo's that don't touch that element of gameplay at all and are successful, clearly this isn't a necessary submarket to tap into.
I'd also wager that it's not a very large one, or else somebody would have tried by now.

And under that thinking the game will never get above 2nd place as of yet i have never heard of an mmo failing because there was to much todo variety wise within them have you ?. 3-0

It's absolutly a valid argument. With any one character, I can go do warzones, flashpoints, engage in a long 3 act narrative, progress to level 50, do operations, do Heroic missions with up to three friends or total strangers, advance my Light Side/Dark Side score, improve my Legacy, and so on.
Social characters do none of this. That's unequal, and thus players are going to feel it as being unfair. I shouldn't have to change to a different character just to play a certain type of content.
However, a player has to change from a social character to a combatant anytime he wants to do anything in the game as originally intended, and that's not good.

Your not only stating the obvious but also proving yourself wrong at the same time. None combat class states that you would be making a choice to play a char that can do none of the combat orientated objectives in the game when it comes to operations and flashpoints etc but they arnt blocked from space combat. But as previously stated you arnt limited to only one char, there is no reason why they couldnt gain legacy or any reason why it couldnt even be part of legacy.

If a player wants to play a tank and a healer they have the same limitations right now so what is your point exactly, you dont have one. 4-0

Except I'm not. 0-3
I'm stating a hypothetical idea based on the Theory of Large Numbers. "IF" should have been a good clue. IF all classes were played equal ammounts by equal ammount of players (and the Theory of Large Numbers states that the larger your value set, the closer it will be to equal distribution), you would see just as many noncombatants as you would combatants, in a game that is all about war.

This game is about Star Wars, it is set within a war. Not all things are equal, there will always be fewer tanks and healers then there are dps. everything always falls into a natural balance and people play how they wish. Trying to justify your stance with the fact that there is a war going on is not a valid point.

5-0

Predev forum, was a statement made by Daniel Erickson. Can't find the actual quote, but he does exactly use the "Luke Skywalker v. Uncle Owen story" comparison.

ok then find it.

Except I'm not. 0-4
I'm stating economic fundamenals. If you work on adding things to the game that weren't supposed to be there, you can't work on the things that are. That's not to say that they shouldn't try things that have never been done before or that they should never develop new content.
What it is saying is that there are things that this game is already trying to do that can be done better, or simply have more of.
It does not make any kind of logical or economical sense to spend all of that time and money on something entirely different when it can be spent improving what we already have.

AAA ok, what your actualy saying is they can develope what you want but they absolutly cannot develope what you dont, got you. 6-0

I don't have to. With the way that you set it up, Bioware will NEVER bite at it. The aspect you're talking about was never going to be a focus of this game.
This isn't a sandbox MMO. This is not the kind of game that you "live" in, and just because you pay money for it doesn't mean that this is negotiable.

And there we go, you dont want sandbox. well your defeated on that one already. social class's arnt sandbox they are themepark. when you understand what sandbox actually is come back and try again. 7-0

This is not the game you are looking for. Move Along.

Ow now i really see it, the wow mentality, sorry but this is not the poster your wanting to go up against, this is star wars and i will play it as much as i like. People will suggest ideas and when you get over your megalomania maybe you will understand that you have no say in what can be suggested, developed or implimented within the game. You cannot state what you can deprive from the playerbase content wise as if you somehow have control of what bioware develope for swtor.

He is knocked to the canvas, the ref counts to 10, ding ding your out.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Shingara

Baphomet_x · July 17, 2012

LoL, just lol. lets look at this shall we, combat class's do exactly the same thing as npcs, they attack, talk to each other and are defeated, so if your now stating a player has to do everything an npc cant and do nothing an npc can then you have just defeated your own argument.

so 1-0

And you did say it was a good idea, if your stating that social only players would outnumber combat only players. cant have it both ways.

2-0

Who said anything about all of those players exactly, and people pay money to have a sparkle horse so yes people will pay to play a game where they spend all there time in a cantina, they do it now in other games. And you somehow stating that if you want that then play a pirated lucas arts game is somehow justified then go ahead and see what happens, say it again.

And under that thinking the game will never get above 2nd place as of yet i have never heard of an mmo failing because there was to much todo variety wise within them have you ?. 3-0

Your not only stating the obvious but also proving yourself wrong at the same time. None combat class states that you would be making a choice to play a char that can do none of the combat orientated objectives in the game when it comes to operations and flashpoints etc but they arnt blocked from space combat. But as previously stated you arnt limited to only one char, there is no reason why they couldnt gain legacy or any reason why it couldnt even be part of legacy.

If a player wants to play a tank and a healer they have the same limitations right now so what is your point exactly, you dont have one. 4-0

This game is about Star Wars, it is set within a war. Not all things are equal, there will always be fewer tanks and healers then there are dps. everything always falls into a natural balance and people play how they wish. Trying to justify your stance with the fact that there is a war going on is not a valid point.

5-0

ok then find it.

AAA ok, what your actualy saying is they can develope what you want but they absolutly cannot develope what you dont, got you. 6-0

And there we go, you dont want sandbox. well your defeated on that one already. social class's arnt sandbox they are themepark. when you understand what sandbox actually is come back and try again. 7-0

Ow now i really see it, the wow mentality, sorry but this is not the poster your wanting to go up against, this is star wars and i will play it as much as i like. People will suggest ideas and when you get over your megalomania maybe you will understand that you have no say in what can be suggested, developed or implimented within the game. You cannot state what you can deprive from the playerbase content wise as if you somehow have control of what bioware develope for swtor.

He is knocked to the canvas, the ref counts to 10, ding ding your out.

your pure awesome shingi...*sigh* i tryed my best with my earlier post to bridge the two ideas and he just spat at me....

and also for the guy that mentioned sith alchemist..."THAT IS a combat class,and i have the book scans to prove it,go look it up on my thread about the sith alchemist"

and also to the guy arguing with shingi

this is capitalism,if there is money in it,there will be a way...no matter what you think about feasability or properness in this world....your opinion to denounce something will never be heard or even thought about by bioware..because your opinion wont make more money

however,shingi`s opinion,and mine,will make them more money.....and mr darth,what ideas have you actually come up with to make bioware money?

this is capitalism,pursuit of money is all important...and if you dont like capitalism im sure there are some primordial games out there to satisfy your refusal to work with capitalism

Edited July 17, 2012 by Baphomet_x

Shingara · July 17, 2012

your pure awesome shingi...*sigh* i tryed my best with my earlier post to bridge the two ideas and he just spat at me....

and also for the guy that mentioned sith alchemist..."THAT IS a combat class,and i have the book scans to prove it,go look it up on my thread about the sith alchemist"

and also to the guy arguing with shingi

this is capitalism,if there is money in it,there will be a way...no matter what you think about feasability or properness in this world....your opinion to denounce something will never be heard or even thought about by bioware..because your opinion wont make more money

however,shingi`s opinion,and mine,will make them more money.....and mr darth,what ideas have you actually come up with to make bioware money?

this is capitalism,pursuit of money is all important...and if you dont like capitalism im sure there are some primordial games out there to satisfy your refusal to work with capitalism

Thanks bap, and you hit on the key point. What will generate revenue and this would. It would not create as much revenue as combat only gameplay but it would generate revenue alongside it. We have 1 play style now, another playstyle being fleshed out with space and if this ever got created that would be a 3rd.

3 different play styles will generate more cash then 2 just as 2 will generate more then one. That money gets put back into the game meaning that more content can be developed. Its not rocket science. It would also see more action on rp servers but that doesnt mean it would be limited to only rp servers.

It would blow life into currently unused areas, make the development time put into those areas actualy pay and give a meaning for those areas. The social areas like bars had alot of work put into them which is easily seen so giving them a purpose is just common sense.

Because lets break it down, what has to be developed -

One class to be added, entertainer class with 3 trees.

Areas, none, they are created and already in the game.

Companions, can take templates from companions already in the game or utilies the system being used for hk unlocked via legacy. Companion missions can just be the same as your none primery companion, simple talk and reply missions. New companions unlocked with new areas unlocked upon set level.

Skill trees, 1 tree for dancer, give new dance moves and dance styles and power to buffs applied, 2nd tree musician, instruments able to play and songs to play and power to buffs applied. Tree 3, showman/women, a hybrid of the 1st 2 trees. All trees to apply visual effects whilst performing but the hybrid tree to be more on the visual effects.

Abilities, use instrument and a set number of dances, apply presence buff and increase rested xp genreation to watchers, primery defence skills to be taken from the legacy pvp part of uppercut jab etc. armour profs adaptive armour. weapons none. Primery stat presence.

Races, any from a set pool of common races and any you have unlocked from your legacy.

Crafting, allow them to craft anything and gather anything but also allow them and only them to be able to craft and re for recipes adapative/social armour.

Class quests, only 1 chain would need to be made and shared between them all, simple contracts to play at new venues and conversation and go fetch deliver missions plus entertaining missions tied into how they gain xp and tied into space combat.

For how they level i think it would be amazing if they set it up so you had to chain moves and complete combo of skills to gain xp ( a bit like guitar hero), the better the song or dance grade you unlock the better the reward from doing entertainer missions for hutts and other people and then also gained from space combat, social xp gained from playing to players.

Group entertainer mission, have a mix of dancer and musicians or the hybrid, a full band of musicians or dancers to complete chain skills to keep intime with the song being played. Rewards to be xp, social xp and instruments and adaptive armour and mini pets/vanity items.

Possible events, battle of the bands/dance off. 2 teams go head to head to try and get the best score.

Space combat, space combat isnt defined by what you do on the ground and only the ships are tied to class with 2 of the ships shared between 4 class. An entertainer ship could be cross faction even if the class isnt and there are plenty of models in the game to draw from.

Done and dusted. And then the only things to figure out after that is are they neutral or faction stanced with the possibility of covert factioned which opens up espionage missions. What ship can they use in space and where do they start, a starter planet or start directly on the capital world.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Shingara

Darth_Halford · July 17, 2012

LoL, just lol. lets look at this shall we, combat class's do exactly the same thing as npcs, they attack, talk to each other and are defeated, so if your now stating a player has to do everything an npc cant and do nothing an npc can then you have just defeated your own argument.

Nice try, but wrong.

A NPC doesn't have crafting, Legacy, or comapnions. By the very nature of what it is, it can't engage in PvP. An NPC is only limited to do one thing. A player character has the option of doing several things.

The idea of a social gear crafter does not have that same option, and while your idea of entertainers may have a choice in what dance they use or instrument they play, they are still confined to only doing one thing.

And you did say it was a good idea, if your stating that social only players would outnumber combat only players. cant have it both ways.

I didn't saying anything about social characters outnumbering them. At best I presented a theoretical situation where they were EQUAL.

And, for the third time, it is strictly that: a theoretical idea to show that if the idea becomes very popular, the games major theme becomes lost. Not once did I say that it WOULD happen, only saying what the problems would be IF IT DID.

Who said anything about all of those players exactly, and people pay money to have a sparkle horse so yes people will pay to play a game where they spend all there time in a cantina, they do it now in other games. And you somehow stating that if you want that then play a pirated lucas arts game is somehow justified then go ahead and see what happens, say it again.

I never advertised for the emulator. I never recommended that you or anyone else go to play it. You clearly have a problem where you see what you want me to say, instead of what I'm actually saying.

Yes, people do pay money for micro-transactions for downloadable content in other MMO's. That's how "free to play" games make their money. However, they wouldn't be paying for the WoW sparkle horse if they didn't already think the game itself was worth the $15 bucks a month.

I am curious though, what games are out there that people actually pay a subscription fee for just to be in a cantina or bar.

And under that thinking the game will never get above 2nd place as of yet i have never heard of an mmo failing because there was to much todo variety wise within them have you ?. 3-0

Many products have become number 1 with that kind of thinking. You don't need to make a radically different product, you just need to keep making the product you already have better.

The Ford F-150 hasn't gone through a major design change in ages, and it still maintains its position as best selling truck in the United States by doing what it set out to do better than anyone else.

Adding a Social Class does not help Bioware do what it set out to do any better than it would be without it.

You may like the idea, You may think its fun, but that doesn't mean that it helps the games (or the companies) mission statement.

I may not be able to think of any product off the top of my head that has been hurt by doing too many things, but I can think of quite a few where it didn't help.

Your not only stating the obvious but also proving yourself wrong at the same time. None combat class states that you would be making a choice to play a char that can do none of the combat orientated objectives in the game when it comes to operations and flashpoints etc but they arnt blocked from space combat. But as previously stated you arnt limited to only one char, there is no reason why they couldnt gain legacy or any reason why it couldnt even be part of legacy.

Even if they conduct space combat, that's still leaves the overwhelming majority of the game that's being left out.

Yes, they can always play another character, but you've completly missed the point, which is that shouldn't be necessary.

Every character should have the ability to do everything, because players are going to want to do everything.

This is the same reason that Bioware didn't institute "freaky aliens" as player characters that could not be romanceable, because someone, at some point, is going to want it.

Like everything else, Legacy is not suited for them or it just doesn't apply to how they work.

Bonuses to various companions? Doesn't work because the companions won't be following the DPS/Heal/Tank archetype as the combatant characters.

Extra abilities with Heroic Moment? Nope.

PvP bonuses? No

Increased XP Gain? None of it applies.

The only thing that really comes to mind that is of any benefit is the species unlocks and cooldowns to the Fleet Pass.

Yes, you could make Legacy Rewards specifically to benefit the social class, but than they won't benefit the combatant class.

If this doesn't sound like having two completly seperate games in the same space, It should, and no that's not a good thing for your profits.

If a player wants to play a tank and a healer they have the same limitations right now so what is your point exactly, you dont have one. 4-0

Except that regardless of being a tank or a healer, I still have access to the same flashpoints, operations, warzones, class stories, etc, as any other character. I'm not locked out of content by the choice that I made, I just play it differently.

This game is about Star Wars, it is set within a war. Not all things are equal, there will always be fewer tanks and healers then there are dps. everything always falls into a natural balance and people play how they wish. Trying to justify your stance with the fact that there is a war going on is not a valid point.

It is absolutly a valid point because the war is integral to the game, and the whole franchise.

All of the Holonet history entries are about war in some way. Every flashpoint or operation is about war. Every story touches on it. All of the cinematics advertising the game depicted war.

Branching outwards, both of the KOTOR games either involved war itself or the consequences thereof. Both of the key characters were war veterans.

The KOTOR Comics, centered around Zayne Carrick, not only took place and depicted the mandalorian wars, but also showed the Jedi Covenant's willingness to try and prevent another war with the Sith.

Tales of the Jedi, the first comic series to touch on the Old Republic era, functioned on war and conflict.

The original movies themselves and the majoriy of other star wars media are based on war.

The first thing we ever found out about The Galaxy Far Far Away, in the title crawl of the A New Hope, was that the galaxy was in a state of civil war.

That same title crawl actually has more screen time than either the entertainers of Mos Eisley. The ones in Jabba's palace clocks in at around 2 minutes

That I'm aware of, nobody has made a major story about either group, nor any other entertainers or crafters.

What you're suggesting is something that is completly disproprotionate from everything else in the history of Star Wars.

AAA ok, what your actualy saying is they can develope what you want but they absolutly cannot develope what you dont, got you.

You would have if I had ever said " I want ______". Not only did I not say it it was never even implied.

I have no problems with things being implemented into the game that I don't like. I've never done PvP, but it fits within what the game is trying to do and the conveyance of the war between the Sith and the Republic, so I keep my personal opinions out of those kinds of conversations. I'm not a big fan of the Cathar being the first new species being brought into the game, but it makes sense that it's the one that they chose.

When I do talk down an idea, its because either it doesn't make sense or doesn't belong.

Ow now i really see it, the wow mentality, sorry but this is not the poster your wanting to go up against, this is star wars and i will play it as much as i like. People will suggest ideas and when you get over your megalomania maybe you will understand that you have no say in what can be suggested, developed or implimented within the game. You cannot state what you can deprive from the playerbase content wise as if you somehow have control of what bioware develope for swtor.

You're right, your not the poster I want to go up against. The poster I want to go up doesn't make a straw man every chance they get.

Go ahead and play as it much as you like, i'm not going to stop you. I just think you would be alot happier if this was a completly different game, and I really do get the impression that you've lost the mark on what this game really is about.

If this thing is such a big deal and so (apparently) necessary, than what is it about the game currently that has any appeal to you?

Did I ever say that I was going to deprive you or the playerbase of anything? No.

Did I say that you or anyone else shouldn't post suggestions? Not actually. I made a (admittledly inappropriate) star wars reference about how the game that you're playing isn't the game you think you're playing, but not once did I (or would I) say for you to stop.

Somebody might have the dumbest, most poorly thought out, impossible to implement idea in the history of the forums, and I wouldn't tell them not to suggest it, because they have just as much right to say what they think as I do.

Did I say that I have any control over what Bioware does or not do? No. I said that I know what they think about the idea.

He is knocked to the canvas, the ref counts to 10, ding ding your out.

Not even in your dreams. The only way that you've convinced yourself that you've won anything is by creating things that I never actually said so that you can fight against what you've imagined i'm saying, instead of what's really there.

You've made enough straw men to populate all of the farms in the "bread basket" states.

Don't quote me and try to say for me what I've already said, as if you know what I'm saying or thinking better than I know myself. You do it everytime, and you always get it wrong.

If I say that this idea shouldn't be implement in the game because it doesn't fit, that doesn't mean that I only want what WoW has done, It doesn't mean that I don't want the game to ever introduce new things, it doesn't mean that I only want things implemented into the game that I enjoy.

It means that the idea shouldn't be implemented because it doesn't fit, and that's all.

Darth_Halford · July 17, 2012

your pure awesome shingi...*sigh* i tryed my best with my earlier post to bridge the two ideas and he just spat at me....

I really don't think I did. I even said at the end that your idea would be interesting but that it just didn't belong in a multiplayer game.

this is capitalism,if there is money in it,there will be a way...no matter what you think about feasability or properness in this world....your opinion to denounce something will never be heard or even thought about by bioware..because your opinion wont make more money

Nobody here has been able to present any credible proof that it will make them more money either.

It is historically proven though that games that keep to the same format and continuously upgrade the mechanics and the features do better than ones that just add new ones.

Compare the Mortal Kombat franchise to that of Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, or other varieties of games. From MK4 onwards it kept trying to do something different or add something different from the game before, and as a result the games themselves suffered, and the sales followed. It wasn't until recently when they completly went back to the mechanics of the first game and expanded upon them that players began to take interest again.

Where as Street Fighter2 had remained the exact same for over a decade and was still considered to be the best game in the genre, and continued to sell.

If you want to stay in the same genre, you can look at how the New Game Experience, or City of Heroes Going Rogue expansion compares to some of the more successful expansions or games,like City of Villains, which offered the same gameplay as City of Heroes before it, but offered a mirrored character option.

You could even look at it from a pre-dev stage, at how much public interest there was for Warhammer Online, and than how quickly it died down after players found out how much the game had changed.

however,shingi`s opinion,and mine,will make them more money.....and mr darth,what ideas have you actually come up with to make bioware money?

Again, you have no proof of that. You have no way of proving that the costs of adding the classes will be outweighed by the profits gained by the new players who use them.

I haven't come up with a bankbreaker idea for this game. The absense of a better idea does not meant the current idea is good.

this is capitalism,pursuit of money is all important...and if you dont like capitalism im sure there are some primordial games out there to satisfy your refusal to work with capitalism

I used real economic principles to support my argument, I don't need to be told how capitalism works.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Darth_Halford

Darth_Halford · July 17, 2012

Darth_Halford -- Thank you for the post, absolutely filled with your thoughts and opinions!! :-)

This post will not delve into the details of a social class/crew skills, after reading the above I feel you expressed extremely well why you believe this type of game play does not belong in this game. Below being my response.

If BioWare does implement some type of Social Skills/Classes this game will benefit from it. Adding variety in options is usually positive results. There are people who play,only PvP and people who only PvE , some who do both.

--- Adding additional activities is only going to increase interest. Most gamers understand there are 2 different games, * The grind to a max level * * gearing out at the max level* Adding content to do along the way, and at the top, while the content that is already implemented is not broken, can not be a bad thing. --- If you don't agree please quote this and respond.

Social classes do not appeal to everyone, but they do appeal to some. Just like continual crafting. This game should not change its core, but it should strongly consider adding this as an option.

BioWare has been, as far as I know, solid when dealing with patches and adding new content that works. Hopefully this game will get through multiple expansions, and add content as well as fix it.

MMO's are about having a second life, it's sad to say but that's why we play. There is a different level of intelligence(or stupidity), teamwork and effort in mmo gameplay.

As always please post your response's any opinions, comments, suggestions or idea's are welcome here. Thank you for reading and participating.

to begin, I'm sorry that I missed your thoughtful post amongst all the vitriol.

I do think it's a shame that you won't discuss the details about the various social classes. "The devil is in the details" is a very true statement, and the details about how something works can make or break it. It especially benefits a guy like me who wants to know exactly how something is going to work.

That said, this is your discussion and not mine, and I think I'v pieced it together by what the others have said.

Adding variety CAN improve something, but it comes back to the issue of economic Opportunity Costs. If you have a forty hour work week, and have 10 things to do, you can't work on them as well if there was only 5 things, and as a result, it's not going to be as good. Even if the social classes come out fine through production, they will continously eat up production that could be spent in other areas of the game.

It's my argument that by improving the game that we already have, The Old Republic will be more successful in the long run than if you continously add new things to it, and that the opportunity cost of trying to attract new gamers through social classes is to be high to be worthwhile.

I absolutly agree that adding new content along the way is a great way to get new players and hold onto the ones that we already have. What I don't agree with is that social classes will do that, especially if they are strictly noncombatant classes that actually don't access most of the game.

Adding more flashpoints, new warzones, more group-based content: the things that people already think that Bioware does a good job on, will continue to bring in customers and hold onto the ones that we have.

One thing that I personally think Bioware could do that not only maximizes on their current strength but also encourages more group play and interaction is to have group-based story arcs. All of the group classes that we have now are one-offs. I think that Bioware implemented multiplayer quest chains, that could really help. If they worked in such a way to be specific to another class, that would be really cool, such as if the Jedi use their knowledge of the Force to help a Trooper outmaneuver Imperial tactics, or if a Bounty Hunter and a Sith work together to capture a Republic Senator.

The key is to create content that everyone has the potential to access and enjoy. That's a foundation that every good game relies on. Social classes are basically blocked out of all of the content in the game that is not built specifically for them, and that is a huge problem.

Shingara · July 17, 2012

Nice try, but wrong.
A NPC doesn't have crafting, Legacy, or comapnions. By the very nature of what it is, it can't engage in PvP. An NPC is only limited to do one thing. A player character has the option of doing several things.

I fail to see the point your trying to make as you have just made mine, the social class would have crafting, they would be part of the legacy and they would have companions, by the very nature of what it is the player playing them wouldnt want to engage in ground pvp, its limited in the sense of the fact that a social class would not be playing for the main concept of ground combat but they would be unlimited in there social gaming and due to this the social class would have the option of doing several things. As such you have just destroyed your own argument.

The idea of a social gear crafter does not have that same option, and while your idea of entertainers may have a choice in what dance they use or instrument they play, they are still confined to only doing one thing.

A social class would not be limited to only crafting social gear, they would have the option to craft social gear or do any of the other trades in the game, they will have the ability to use instruments other players cannot, they would have the ability to do dances other players cannot, they have the option to buff presence onto players and to buff rested xp at an increased rate to other players. They have the option to play space and any future mini games that come into the game.

By there very nature a social class has more options then a combat class when it comes to gameplay.

I didn't saying anything about social characters outnumbering them. At best I presented a theoretical situation where they were EQUAL.

Even at equal that states that this would generate alot of income on a monthly basis for bioware.

And, for the third time, it is strictly that: a theoretical idea to show that if the idea becomes very popular, the games major theme becomes lost. Not once did I say that it WOULD happen, only saying what the problems would be IF IT DID.

Nothing becomes lost, the game will not change apart from the fact that players wishing to will be able to play a different aspect of the game if they so wished. But feel free to tell me how a social class would impact upon your ability to raid.

Yes, people do pay money for micro-transactions for downloadable content in other MMO's. That's how "free to play" games make their money. However, they wouldn't be paying for the WoW sparkle horse if they didn't already think the game itself was worth the $15 bucks a month.

You defeat your own point, the fact is people will pay a sub for a game that has features they want, as such adding something to the game that takes nothing away from another aspect of the game gets a net result of more subscribers as the people who are here for an already existing feature wont leave because something has been added that doesnt effect them in what they do day to day but players wanting that feature will come to the game because of a new feature they wanted being put in.

I am curious though, what games are out there that people actually pay a subscription fee for just to be in a cantina or bar.

Basically any mmo out there has roleplayers in who do nothing but solid rp, once they get to max level and sometimes not even then they do not take part ion the pvp nor pve and simply use the game world as a vessel to roleplay within that world.

But SWG was the only one that actualy put it into a mainstream mmo, but thats no reason to condemn the class type, swgs problems were not created because they had none combat classes, if anything it made swg feel more alive and created a great and vibrant community that included the pve'ers and the pvp'ers.

There are plenty of other games that are huge that work on the basis of none combat gameplay, minecraft, second life etc etc and people spend a fortune on those games. If some of those can be pulled into the game then £$£$£$£$£$£$££$

Many products have become number 1 with that kind of thinking. You don't need to make a radically different product, you just need to keep making the product you already have better.

Adding a social class isnt radically different, its just putting a different aspect into the game. Space is a different aspect to the game, at one point flying mounts in wow was a radically different change but it didnt kill wow. At one point it didnt have arenas but putting them in no matter how radical enhanced the game, only a limited number of people used it when compared top the entire playerbase but that has paid for itself.

The Ford F-150 hasn't gone through a major design change in ages, and it still maintains its position as best selling truck in the United States by doing what it set out to do better than anyone else.

This isnt a car or truck, but throw in a dvd player, free aircon and some other things and it will sell better.

Adding a Social Class does not help Bioware do what it set out to do any better than it would be without it.
You may like the idea, You may think its fun, but that doesn't mean that it helps the games (or the companies) mission statement.

How do you know it wont, Im pretty sure biowares plan and mission is to have all spaces and developed content full used and taken advantage of as it took alot of work to design it, public rest areas which arnt the fleet are baron, unused and wasted development at this time. giving them a purpose is what they want, im also pretty sure there mission statement is bums on seats.

I may not be able to think of any product off the top of my head that has been hurt by doing too many things, but I can think of quite a few where it didn't help.

Show me one mmo that suffered from adding a feature that didnt involve impacting on or changing the core of the games design. Any mmos stated that lost players due to wow nicking there ideas dont count.

Even if they conduct space combat, that's still leaves the overwhelming majority of the game that's being left out.

And that is the players choice to make, no one would be forced to play the class would they and having this feature would allow them to utilies this as an alt.

Yes, they can always play another character, but you've completly missed the point, which is that shouldn't be necessary.

Nothing is necessary, alts arnt necessary, they are encouraged through the legacy system, an alternative to leveling a combat class again would be welcome for alot of players as would as a alternative gameplay.

Every character should have the ability to do everything, because players are going to want to do everything.

Players are able todo what they want, nothing on that stance would change, limitations on classes will always be here.

This is the same reason that Bioware didn't institute "freaky aliens" as player characters that could not be romanceable, because someone, at some point, is going to want it.

My agent is married to a hived part insect human. i think thats pretty far out there. but what does this have todo with a social class exactly.

Like everything else, Legacy is not suited for them or it just doesn't apply to how they work.

Actualy this is perfectly suited to legacy and family trees, unlocks and perks.

Bonuses to various companions? Doesn't work because the companions won't be following the DPS/Heal/Tank archetype as the combatant characters.

Of course it works for companions, they are your bodyguards when your out in the world collecting mats, thats why there primary stat should be presence and the legacy unlocks give them extra little buffs for get out of trouble quick moments.

Extra abilities with Heroic Moment? Nope.

They would have them, why wouldnt they, a quick knee in the nutts to give you time to get away, we said none combatant not total pacifists

PvP bonuses? No

Dont need em, they wont be doing pvp and it will be the players choice not to with that char when they are creating it.

Increased XP Gain? None of it applies.

XP would, they would still be leveling, just not in a combat way minus space.

The only thing that really comes to mind that is of any benefit is the species unlocks and cooldowns to the Fleet Pass.

Not to mention the valor unlocks gained from your other chars which would give you unarmed skills as they wouldnt be able to equip weapons.

Yes, you could make Legacy Rewards specifically to benefit the social class, but than they won't benefit the combatant class.

They dont need them, they are already in the legacy system now under social.

If this doesn't sound like having two completly seperate games in the same space, It should, and no that's not a good thing for your profits.

We have 2 different games in the same space or will have soon when space gets revamped, a third will not harm a thing. It certainly didnt in swg.

Except that regardless of being a tank or a healer, I still have access to the same flashpoints, operations, warzones, class stories, etc, as any other character. I'm not locked out of content by the choice that I made, I just play it differently.

If you had a social class you wouldnt be locked out on any other chars you made. If you have a main that is your raider and you wish to staore them and only do dailys and the raids per scheduale in the week you could play a social class on the downtime.

It is absolutly a valid point because the war is integral to the game, and the whole franchise.

The original movies themselves and the majoriy of other star wars media are based on war.

The first thing we ever found out about The Galaxy Far Far Away, in the title crawl of the A New Hope, was that the galaxy was in a state of civil war.

So is love, forgivness, peace, understanding, the world that encompasses it traders and entertainers too, and the underworld and the choices of light and dark.

All of the Holonet history entries are about war in some way. Every flashpoint or operation is about war. Every story touches on it. All of the cinematics advertising the game depicted war.

No they arnt, http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/

Branching outwards, both of the KOTOR games either involved war itself or the consequences thereof. Both of the key characters were war veterans.
The KOTOR Comics, centered around Zayne Carrick, not only took place and depicted the mandalorian wars, but also showed the Jedi Covenant's willingness to try and prevent another war with the Sith.
Tales of the Jedi, the first comic series to touch on the Old Republic era, functioned on war and conflict.

This isnt kotor or the comics, im pretty sure jedis went to the toilet and chewy scratched his bum, those arnt in the films or comics but they will have happened.

That same title crawl actually has more screen time than either the entertainers of Mos Eisley. The ones in Jabba's palace clocks in at around 2 minutes

And yet they are some of the most remembered scenes in the whole films Also they are some of the biggest cosplay cosutmes used..

That I'm aware of, nobody has made a major story about either group, nor any other entertainers or crafters.

They dont make storys of ben kenobie sat in the desert for a few decades eating choc ices and going to the toilet but its an integral part of the story. Also lando calrision, the guy who works for him, weedo, Oola and max rebo are some of the best known lore people in the lore.

What you're suggesting is something that is completly disproprotionate from everything else in the history of Star Wars.

No its not, its in the story, its just in the fringes and the background to the story. Its what makes to story come alive that the universe feels real.

You would have if I had ever said " I want ______". Not only did I not say it it was never even implied.
I have no problems with things being implemented into the game that I don't like.

AAA but your stating i dont want______________

I've never done PvP, but it fits within what the game is trying to do and the conveyance of the war between the Sith and the Republic, so I keep my personal opinions out of those kinds of conversations. I'm not a big fan of the Cathar being the first new species being brought into the game, but it makes sense that it's the one that they chose.

And yet you would not take any part of this if it came into the game YET you feel the need to here, a social player fits into the universe, it fits into the lore but because they dont waft a light saber about or shoot a pistol and there part in the war is moral on the ground and taking to the fight in space it somehow doesnt fit to you.

When I do talk down an idea, its because either it doesn't make sense or doesn't belong.

I think we can fully believe this makes no sense to you, as such you would not use it even if it came and yet even though it has no impact upon you your still here in this topic.

You're right, your not the poster I want to go up against. The poster I want to go up doesn't make a straw man every chance they get.

Insult 1

Go ahead and play as it much as you like, i'm not going to stop you. I just think you would be alot happier if this was a completly different game, and I really do get the impression that you've lost the mark on what this game really is about.

I have not lost any feeling of what this game is, but unlike you i know that the star wars story has deeper dimentions then smacking someone in the face with a lightsaber.

If this thing is such a big deal and so (apparently) necessary, than what is it about the game currently that has any appeal to you?

The rest of the game appeals to, but unlike yourself i see where the game can appeal to me in other ways, mini games, the casinos being functional with pazzak, swoop racing, spectator mode and set teams for huttball, a fully devolped space game and this.

Did I ever say that I was going to deprive you or the playerbase of anything? No.

Your trying to right now in this topic.

Did I say that you or anyone else shouldn't post suggestions? Not actually. I made a (admittledly inappropriate) star wars reference about how the game that you're playing isn't the game you think you're playing, but not once did I (or would I) say for you to stop.

And we are stating that the game we are playing can be alot more, alot better and alot more encouraging for players to play who are not currently in this game or genre by adding features and aspects to the game that other subscription based mmos do not have.

Somebody might have the dumbest, most poorly thought out, impossible to implement idea in the history of the forums, and I wouldn't tell them not to suggest it, because they have just as much right to say what they think as I do.

And yet your doing it here. PS look at my post, the part in blue above the one im quoting here and tell me how that is hard to impliment.

Did I say that I have any control over what Bioware does or not do? No. I said that I know what they think about the idea.

Your the one stating what bioware will do, what there mission statement is and what will and what wont fit within the star wars lore and universe.

Not even in your dreams. The only way that you've convinced yourself that you've won anything is by creating things that I never actually said so that you can fight against what you've imagined i'm saying, instead of what's really there.

Why would i need to win anything, what your saying speaks volumes way more then what words i could ever try tto place into your mouth.

You've made enough straw men to populate all of the farms in the "bread basket" states.

Insult 2

Don't quote me and try to say for me what I've already said, as if you know what I'm saying or thinking better than I know myself. You do it everytime, and you always get it wrong.

I wouldnt try, how could i tell someone what there try to say about a genre and setting when they dont even understand what sandbox and themepark are.

If I say that this idea shouldn't be implement in the game because it doesn't fit, that doesn't mean that I only want what WoW has done, It doesn't mean that I don't want the game to ever introduce new things, it doesn't mean that I only want things implemented into the game that I enjoy.
It means that the idea shouldn't be implemented because it doesn't fit, and that's all.

And they have been proven to fit in the star wars lore before, swg did it. Aparently dancing games also fit in the star wars lore cos its in the new kinnect game. Guess what also those two are set in the real war not a cold one.

Again, you have no proof of that. You have no way of proving that the costs of adding the classes will be outweighed by the profits gained by the new players who use them.
I haven't come up with a bankbreaker idea for this game. The absense of a better idea does not meant the current idea is good.

And what proof would you like exactly, the size of the genre for which this gamestyle is mainstream, the fact that features like this have been called to be implimented for years, that this feature alone used to sustain an entire mmo for a few years, That another mmo second life had double the number of players then even wow at 21.3 million users. To generate you have to speculate, to get players from outside of the genre into the game you have to embrase features and ideals which in the main part are not part of the genre.

Other mmos are doing that, they are bringing sandbox back into the mmo market, rift and sto for example, wow is declining massivley and people are bored of constant combat gear grind. Players want more and companys are realising that.

And in finishing you can find no alternative, your only statements against this is that there is a war and even though there are presidents in place for this in this exact ip that it would somehow not fit, that you find a player who does this is no better then an npc which is an insult to people who rp and take no part in combat now as if there gamestyle is a waste of time. You stand and try to state what bioware want and there missions statement which is so close to trying to impersonate a bioware employee its unreal. You have placed nothing constructive in any of your replys and in your previous reply above this post do infact try to state what should and should not be developed and the incrimental costs of developing this feature.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Shingara

Darth_Halford · July 17, 2012

A social class would not be limited to only crafting social gear, they would have the option to craft social gear or do any of the other trades in the game, they will have the ability to use instruments other players cannot, they would have the ability to do dances other players cannot, they have the option to buff presence onto players and to buff rested xp at an increased rate to other players. They have the option to play space and any future mini games that come into the game.

By there very nature a social class has more options then a combat class when it comes to gameplay.

my one character can craft, grant a buff to other players, dance, conduct space, do flashpoints, warzones, and so on, so they really don't.

What they are doing is something that any other class can do, it's just expanded

Even at equal that states that this would generate alot of income on a monthly basis for bioware.

While this is theoretically true, I for one don't think its very likely.

The statistical likelyhood of people coming to a predominantly action war game to play 1-4 social classes that are very limited in what they are allowed or able to do is very low.

Nothing becomes lost, the game will not change apart from the fact that players wishing to will be able to play a different aspect of the game if they so wished. But feel free to tell me how a social class would impact upon your ability to raid.

Opportunity Costs sound familiar? They should because it explains exactly how this being implemented affects other aspects, although indirectly.

Adding in a social class takes dev time away from other aspects, and continously working on the class over time, as all other classes are, means that an operation that would come out in the next patch now has to wait until the one afterwords, or that a series of bugs that could of been worked out now aren't because the team is instead working on a dancers "score"

You defeat your own point, the fact is people will pay a sub for a game that has features they want, as such adding something to the game that takes nothing away from another aspect of the game gets a net result of more subscribers as the people who are here for an already existing feature wont leave because something has been added that doesnt effect them in what they do day to day but players wanting that feature will come to the game because of a new feature they wanted being put in.

You'd be surprised what people will leave and have left MMO's over. There's folks in this game who quit just because they had to change their characters name when they transferred servers, and that doesn't actually affect anything in the game at all.

I wouldn't be the one, but I know that somewhere there would be a guy who thinks "this smells suspiciously like SWG, I'm out" or "This shows that Bioware isn't interested in endgame. That's the last straw"

I can't seriously believe that there are that many customers out there who will pay $50 bucks, plus an ongoing subscription, just for this feature.

Basically any mmo out there has roleplayers in who do nothing but solid rp, once they get to max level and sometimes not even then they do not take part ion the pvp nor pve and simply use the game world as a vessel to roleplay within that world.
But SWG was the only one that actualy put it into a mainstream mmo, but thats no reason to condemn the class type, swgs problems were not created because they had none combat classes, if anything it made swg feel more alive and created a great and vibrant community that included the pve'ers and the pvp'ers.
There are plenty of other games that are huge that work on the basis of none combat gameplay, minecraft, second life etc etc and people spend a fortune on those games. If some of those can be pulled into the game then £$£$£$£$£$£$££$

Of course there are players in any game who do nothing but roleplay. It's certainly not how those games were designed, but good for them.

More specifically, you can do that in The Old Republic. As you have already pointed out, you just can't roleplay as an entertainer in this game, and that's deliberate.

Some people would and have said that social classes were in fact part of the problem with SWG. I still have a Scorched Earth article about how the only way the writer was able to do anything with their dancer was to be a stripper while other players /lick him.

Is there a game that does both Second Life and themeparks.

Adding a social class isnt radically different, its just putting a different aspect into the game. Space is a different aspect to the game, at one point flying mounts in wow was a radically different change but it didnt kill wow. At one point it didnt have arenas but putting them in no matter how radical enhanced the game, only a limited number of people used it when compared top the entire playerbase but that has paid for itself.

Space Combat also makes sense in a game like this. Things get accomplished out there. and some of the most memorable events happened there.

WoW had paid flying mounts and the Gurabashi Arena, at the start of the game.

These weren't radical changes on gameplay when they were introduced in The Burning Crusade. It took what was already there and made it better.

The social class that you're implementing has nothing in common with current classes or mechanics. There is no "score" in any part of the Old Republic. There are no instruments. This is the only class that doesn't go to level 50. This is the only class that does not have a heroic narrative (and by its very nature, it can't)

This is the only class that touches the rested xp of other characters.

Adding a different aspect IS radically different.

This isnt a car or truck, but throw in a dvd player, free aircon and some other things and it will sell better.

A video game has the same design principles as any other product in the world. A product that does one thing exceptionally well typically sells better than one that does several things only marginally well.

How do you know it wont, Im pretty sure biowares plan and mission is to have all spaces and developed content full used and taken advantage of as it took alot of work to design it, public rest areas which arnt the fleet are baron, unused and wasted development at this time. giving them a purpose is what they want, im also pretty sure there mission statement is bums on seats.

Bioware's mission is heroic storytelling, and it's been that way since the beginning of the company. Their idea here is to bring the kind of storytelling and narratives that they've been very successful with in the Single Player games, into an MMO environment which has never had it.

Bioware actually only needs 500,000 customers to be successful according to their ten year plan

http://www.gamesradar.com/ea-the-old-republic-only-needs-500000-subscribers-to-turn-a-profit/

And for the majority of the time that the game has been alive, they've had over double that number.

Show me one mmo that suffered from adding a feature that didnt involve impacting on or changing the core of the games design. Any mmos stated that lost players due to wow nicking there ideas dont count.

The Going Rogue expansion comes to mind. It wasn't recieved well by its players and shortly thereafter, a ten-year vet MMO had to go Free To Play.

And that is the players choice to make, no one would be forced to play the class would they and having this feature would allow them to utilies this as an alt.

But you're missing the point. If a player only wants to make one character (and there are plenty out there who do), they have to either make a combatant class that has no access to the social stuff, or a social character that does none of combatant stuff. Normally, you can make one character and do everything, and that's how good games are made.

To say "oh, they can just make another character" is equivalent to saying "oh, they can just go play another game". It's not a solution to the problem: it's a refusal to acknowledge the problem exists

XP would, they would still be leveling, just not in a combat way minus space.

All but one of the xp perks is based off combat. The only one that doesn't is exploring.

We have 2 different games in the same space or will have soon when space gets revamped, a third will not harm a thing. It certainly didnt in swg.

The space game, is integrated into the main game in such a way that it appears to all be one game. More specifically, it's something that everyone can do and everyone can interact with, once they reach Act 1.

The combatant classes and the social class are completly cut off from one another. Aside from one giving a buff to the other, they are functioning in entirely different games using entirely different mechanics.

If you had a social class you wouldnt be locked out on any other chars you made. If you have a main that is your raider and you wish to staore them and only do dailys and the raids per scheduale in the week you could play a social class on the downtime.

You could, yes. What you fail to understand is that there will be players that don't want to have to do that.

So is love, forgivness, peace, understanding, the world that encompasses it traders and entertainers too, and the underworld and the choices of light and dark.

All of which are already expressed in the game through the various story arcs. There is no theme in the franchise that only an entertainer can touch on, because so far they haven't touched on any.

This isnt kotor or the comics, im pretty sure jedis went to the toilet and chewy scratched his bum, those arnt in the films or comics but they will have happened.

It's based on the same era. still functions on the same trends and differences from the films.

And yet they are some of the most remembered scenes in the whole films Also they are some of the biggest cosplay cosutmes used..

People may remember the cantina scene in general very clearly, but I doubt they remember it because of the bith musicians. Between suddenly being face-to-face with all of the aliens, Luke getting bullied, Obi chopping an arm off, Meeting Han and Chewie, Han shooting first, and so on, there's alot of memorable things.

I live in walking distance to san diego comic-con. the most common Star Wars outfit I see every year are stormtroopers and slave leia's.

They dont make storys of ben kenobie sat in the desert for a few decades eating choc ices and going to the toilet but its an integral part of the story. Also lando calrision, the guy who works for him, weedo, Oola and max rebo are some of the best known lore people in the lore.

Sure....best known, behind the Skywalkers, the princesses, Han, Chewie, Boba Fett, Jango Fett, Dooku, The Emporer.

Just functioning on those, they aren't even in the top ten. And sure Lando may be a memorable character, but weedo, Oola, or max rebo?

Get real. they don't name those characters, and it's hard to remember a character you don't know anything about.

No its not, its in the story, its just in the fringes and the background to the story. Its what makes to story come alive that the universe feels real.

And this isn't a game about the fringes and the background. Very little in Star Wars is. It's all Foreground, High Adventure and fantasy.

AAA but your stating i dont want______________

Show me wheere I said it.

And yet you would not take any part of this if it came into the game YET you feel the need to here, a social player fits into the universe, it fits into the lore but because they dont waft a light saber about or shoot a pistol and there part in the war is moral on the ground and taking to the fight in space it somehow doesnt fit to you.

If you asked bioware if it fit they would give you the same answer I did. It doesn't fit in the lore. The lore has NEVER given more than a glancing look at these kinds of characters.

Yes, they don't fit because they don't shoot pistols or use lightsabers, because that's what everything else in star wars is about.

I think we can fully believe this makes no sense to you, as such you would not use it even if it came and yet even though it has no impact upon you your still here in this topic.

Opportunity Costs

I have not lost any feeling of what this game is, but unlike you i know that the star wars story has deeper dimentions then smacking someone in the face with a lightsaber.

I know that as well. I also know that those deeper dimensions are not better expressed by a twi'lek in skimpy underwear.

The Old Republic already goes through the deeper dimensions of the franchise.

The rest of the game appeals to, but unlike yourself i see where the game can appeal to me in other ways, mini games, the casinos being functional with pazzak, swoop racing, spectator mode and set teams for huttball, a fully devolped space game and this.

Right, so because I disagree with you i'm somehow shortsighted and can't see the grandvision of what this game could become.

Oh what fun The Old Republic could be...if only Shingara were in charge!....

Please. Now it looks like your Straw Man is being visited by a Red Herring.

Your trying to right now in this topic.

No I'm really not. I'm trying to show you why it won't work and shouldn't be implemented. Even if I never said anything about this topic, it would still never see daylight.

And we are stating that the game we are playing can be alot more, alot better and alot more encouraging for players to play who are not currently in this game or genre by adding features and aspects to the game that other subscription based mmos do not have.

Right, so clearly the only way that Bioware will ever be able to get another customer interested in this game ever again will be to do what you suggest.

Your the one stating what bioware will do, what there mission statement is and what will and what wont fit within the star wars lore and universe.

Yes, because they've already said what their mission statement is, and there's decades of proof as to why dancers and entertainers don't fit prominently in the star wars universe.

Why would i need to win anything, what your saying speaks volumes way more then what words i could ever try tto place into your mouth.

And yet you've been trying to put things in my mouth for eight pages.

I wouldnt try, how could i tell someone what there try to say about a genre and setting when they dont even understand what sandbox and themepark are.

Easy, you've been doing it this whole time

"What you're stating is"

"You're saying....."

"Oh I get it now, the wow mentality"

And they have been proven to fit in the star wars lore before, swg did it. Aparently dancing games also fit in the star wars lore cos its in the new kinnect game. Guess what also those two are set in the real war not a cold one.

KINECT Star Wars is also blatantly non-canon and is a collection of nothing but mini-games. There's no story there. There's no story in Star Wars Galaxies either, and that's the primary vehicle behind The Old Republic.

Besides, you're really going to say that we should add something because two games have it, even when every other game in the franchise doesn't?

And what proof would you like exactly, the size of the genre for which this gamestyle is mainstream, the fact that features like this have been called to be implimented for years, that this feature alone used to sustain an entire mmo for a few years, That another mmo second life had double the number of players then even wow at 21.3 million users. To generate you have to speculate, to get players from outside of the genre into the game you have to embrase features and ideals which in the main part are not part of the genre.

Sure, to bring in new people you will at somepoint have to do something new. That does not mean that just because it's something new that it's automatically going to work.

Second Life also functions entirely off of that social concept. It's not a themepark game that's trying to put a small bit of social in it to get new people.

Other mmo's that work on that premise usually put all of their marbles into that premise, just the same that The Old Republic put all of their marbles into story and combat.

Show me an MMO that has actually added more social features overtime and grown. Show me a themepark MMO that has added an entirely new social/rp facet to it and not gone free-to-play.

Oh, that's right, you said SWG was the only MMO to ever introduce a social class, so you really have no of proving wether a social class will be successful or not.

Other mmos are doing that, they are bringing sandbox back into the mmo market, rift and sto for example, wow is declining massivley and people are bored of constant combat gear grind. Players want more and companys are realising that.

Keep it up Chicken Little.I've been told that the sky is falling for 6 years now, and look at where we are.

And in finishing you can find no alternative, your only statements against this is that there is a war and even though there are presidents in place for this in this exact ip that it would somehow not fit, that you find a player who does this is no better then an npc which is an insult to people who rp and take no part in combat now as if there gamestyle is a waste of time. You stand and try to state what bioware want and there missions statement which is so close to trying to impersonate a bioware employee its unreal. You have placed nothing constructive in any of your replys and in your previous reply above this post do infact try to state what should and should not be developed and the incrimental costs of developing this feature.

Funny, I didn't realise I had to come up with an alternative idea in order for yours to be bad. More specifically, I DID come up with an alternative several times, which is to improve the game that we have and continue to focus on the games strengths as they are, rather than trying to be something it was never meant to.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Darth_Halford

DarthDeimos · July 18, 2012

This isn't SWG 2. Just let it go.

Word and signed.

Shingara · July 18, 2012

my one character can craft,
grant a buff to other players, dance, conduct space, do flashpoints, warzones, and so on, so they really don't.
What they are doing is something that any other class can do, it's just expanded

While this is theoretically true, I for one don't think its very likely.
The statistical likelyhood of people coming to a predominantly action war game to play 1-4 social classes that are very limited in what they are allowed or able to do is very low.

Opportunity Costs sound familiar? They should because it explains exactly how this being implemented affects other aspects, although indirectly.
Adding in a social class takes dev time away from other aspects, and continously working on the class over time, as all other classes are, means that an operation that would come out in the next patch now has to wait until the one afterwords, or that a series of bugs that could of been worked out now aren't because the team is instead working on a dancers "score"

You'd be surprised what people will leave and have left MMO's over. There's folks in this game who quit just because they had to change their characters name when they transferred servers, and that doesn't actually affect anything in the game at all.
I wouldn't be the one, but I know that somewhere there would be a guy who thinks "this smells suspiciously like SWG, I'm out" or "This shows that Bioware isn't interested in endgame. That's the last straw"
I can't seriously believe that there are that many customers out there who will pay $50 bucks, plus an ongoing subscription, just for this feature.

Of course there are players in any game who do nothing but roleplay. It's certainly not how those games were designed, but good for them.
More specifically, you can do that in The Old Republic. As you have already pointed out, you just can't roleplay as an entertainer in this game, and that's deliberate.
Some people would and have said that social classes were in fact part of the problem with SWG. I still have a Scorched Earth article about how the only way the writer was able to do anything with their dancer was to be a stripper while other players /lick him.
Is there a game that does both Second Life and themeparks.

Space Combat also makes sense in a game like this. Things get accomplished out there. and some of the most memorable events happened there.

WoW had paid flying mounts and the Gurabashi Arena, at the start of the game.
These weren't radical changes on gameplay when they were introduced in The Burning Crusade. It took what was already there and made it better.
The social class that you're implementing has nothing in common with current classes or mechanics. There is no "score" in any part of the Old Republic. There are no instruments. This is the only class that doesn't go to level 50. This is the only class that does not have a heroic narrative (and by its very nature, it can't)
This is the only class that touches the rested xp of other characters.
Adding a different aspect IS radically different.

A video game has the same design principles as any other product in the world. A product that does one thing exceptionally well typically sells better than one that does several things only marginally well.

Bioware's mission is heroic storytelling, and it's been that way since the beginning of the company. Their idea here is to bring the kind of storytelling and narratives that they've been very successful with in the Single Player games, into an MMO environment which has never had it.
Bioware actually only needs 500,000 customers to be successful according to their ten year plan
http://www.gamesradar.com/ea-the-old-republic-only-needs-500000-subscribers-to-turn-a-profit/
And for the majority of the time that the game has been alive, they've had over double that number.

The Going Rogue expansion comes to mind. It wasn't recieved well by its players and shortly thereafter, a ten-year vet MMO had to go Free To Play.

But you're missing the point. If a player only wants to make one character (and there are plenty out there who do), they have to either make a combatant class that has no access to the social stuff, or a social character that does none of combatant stuff. Normally, you can make one character and do everything, and that's how good games are made.
To say "oh, they can just make another character" is equivalent to saying "oh, they can just go play another game". It's not a solution to the problem: it's a refusal to acknowledge the problem exists

All but one of the xp perks is based off combat. The only one that doesn't is exploring.

The space game, is integrated into the main game in such a way that it appears to all be one game. More specifically, it's something that everyone can do and everyone can interact with, once they reach Act 1.
The combatant classes and the social class are completly cut off from one another. Aside from one giving a buff to the other, they are functioning in entirely different games using entirely different mechanics.

You could, yes. What you fail to understand is that there will be players that don't want to have to do that.

All of which are already expressed in the game through the various story arcs. There is no theme in the franchise that only an entertainer can touch on, because so far they haven't touched on any.

It's based on the same era. still functions on the same trends and differences from the films.

People may remember the cantina scene in general very clearly, but I doubt they remember it because of the bith musicians. Between suddenly being face-to-face with all of the aliens, Luke getting bullied, Obi chopping an arm off, Meeting Han and Chewie, Han shooting first, and so on, there's alot of memorable things.
I live in walking distance to san diego comic-con. the most common Star Wars outfit I see every year are stormtroopers and slave leia's.

Sure....best known, behind the Skywalkers, the princesses, Han, Chewie, Boba Fett, Jango Fett, Dooku, The Emporer.
Just functioning on those, they aren't even in the top ten. And sure Lando may be a memorable character, but weedo, Oola, or max rebo?
Get real. they don't name those characters, and it's hard to remember a character you don't know anything about.

And this isn't a game about the fringes and the background. Very little in Star Wars is. It's all Foreground, High Adventure and fantasy.

Show me wheere I said it.

If you asked bioware if it fit they would give you the same answer I did. It doesn't fit in the lore. The lore has NEVER given more than a glancing look at these kinds of characters.
Yes, they don't fit because they don't shoot pistols or use lightsabers, because that's what everything else in star wars is about.

Opportunity Costs

I know that as well. I also know that those deeper dimensions are not better expressed by a twi'lek in skimpy underwear.
The Old Republic already goes through the deeper dimensions of the franchise.

Right, so because I disagree with you i'm somehow shortsighted and can't see the grandvision of what this game could become.
Oh what fun The Old Republic could be...if only Shingara were in charge!....
Please. Now it looks like your Straw Man is being visited by a Red Herring.

No I'm really not. I'm trying to show you why it won't work and shouldn't be implemented. Even if I never said anything about this topic, it would still never see daylight.

Right, so clearly the only way that Bioware will ever be able to get another customer interested in this game ever again will be to do what you suggest.

Yes, because they've already said what their mission statement is, and there's decades of proof as to why dancers and entertainers don't fit prominently in the star wars universe.

And yet you've been trying to put things in my mouth for eight pages.

Easy, you've been doing it this whole time
"What you're stating is"
"You're saying....."
"Oh I get it now, the wow mentality"

KINECT Star Wars is also blatantly non-canon and is a collection of nothing but mini-games. There's no story there. There's no story in Star Wars Galaxies either, and that's the primary vehicle behind The Old Republic.
Besides, you're really going to say that we should add something because two games have it, even when every other game in the franchise doesn't?

Sure, to bring in new people you will at somepoint have to do something new. That does not mean that just because it's something new that it's automatically going to work.
Second Life also functions entirely off of that social concept. It's not a themepark game that's trying to put a small bit of social in it to get new people.
Other mmo's that work on that premise usually put all of their marbles into that premise, just the same that The Old Republic put all of their marbles into story and combat.
Show me an MMO that has actually added more social features overtime and grown. Show me a themepark MMO that has added an entirely new social/rp facet to it and not gone free-to-play.
Oh, that's right, you said SWG was the only MMO to ever introduce a social class, so you really have no of proving wether a social class will be successful or not.

Keep it up Chicken Little.I've been told that the sky is falling for 6 years now, and look at where we are.

Funny, I didn't realise I had to come up with an alternative idea in order for yours to be bad. More specifically, I DID come up with an alternative several times, which is to improve the game that we have and continue to focus on the games strengths as they are, rather than trying to be something it was never meant to
.

In all of that all you have been able to come up with is that you dont want to make another char, that is your whole point. With veiled insults throughout the thread you have tried time and time again to say what bioware and lucas want in the game. State wrongly what will generate a profit for the game when it is infact 1-1.5 mil subs required for profit which is stated in the financial report.

You go on to state that the gurabushi arena is somehow the same as an arena in wow and try to state that a good built product that has alot of things that work well will always be better then something thats tacked together badly in an anology of an automobile. All you can say to that is, well deeee

So again all you have stated is that you dont want to have to make another char, thats your whole point btw and that you will somehow not be able to take part in that aspect of the game which is just wrong. Because let me tell you what doesnt fit in lore, a 6 foot 5 sith lord, putting on a sparkly hat, picking up a guitar and singing here comes the sun in a cantina to entertain and help imporve the moral of the people there.

I actually challange you to show me the missions statement and exactly what bioware say on this idea instead of you trying to inform us of what either they have told you or the little voices in your head. I challange you to tell us how this being in the game would effect your ability to take part in any ground pve or pvp aspect of the game becuase so far you have not.

And for the snide remark of keep it up little chicken made about wow, china is closing servers due to los of players, blizzard have removed battlegrouops and set it to region to keep q times up, the number of active raiders in wow has fallen through the floor as shown on gamebreaker tv's legendery and most the people who want mop have actuauly played most of mop already, they have recieved no content since dragon soul and when mop hits they shall get no new content for a long time after mop hits.

STO has the sandbox element of being able to create your own missions for other players, i think thats something COH does also but i could be wrong and its a different game and Rift who is one of the top mmos out no has introduced playerhousing. Sandbox elements are definatly becoming part of the mmo standard yet again.

And you would be freaking lucky if i were in charge, because i would have held back on the launch until 1.2 and kept it in beta. I would have made sure that the space revamp would have been in the launch, i would have made sure mini games like pazzak and swoop racing were in, that ranked and spectator mode were in at launch. That the servers would have much higher caps at launch and that the game would have been more then a vehicle for wow players to get out of wow and that it would have had much more appeal to other gamers and not just those.

But hey im not in charge, im not a developer, i dont pretend to be one and i know that lucas has the last word.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

Baphomet_x · July 18, 2012

i agree shingi,but i think this halford is beyond hope...

he doesnt seem to understand that the mathmatical odds are against him

there are about 7 billion people on this planet..perhaps as much as 3/7ths of those or more have internet access

this game of course will eventually expand into other continents and countrys

for darth halford to say that he can accurately estimate the hopes and wishes and desires of as many,if not more than 3 billion people...is literally scientifically and physically impossible

literally...everyone will have an exactly random set of desires..that is the nature of the universe,that everything in each person is subtly different

so thus,logically..someone else that insists otherwise,can be singled out quite easily as an error..a genetic blip..

infact,i got a link to explain this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_graph

using this graph you can easily see where mr halford is the problem

the only way foward in reality,is the famous analogy "throw as many darts at the dartboard as you can,and see how many stick"....people must suggest well thought ideas at random,and see what works

using the graph link i provided,you can see than anyone that suggests otherwise is infact the problem

Edited July 18, 2012 by Baphomet_x

Shingara · July 18, 2012

i agree shingi,but i think this halford is beyond hope...

he doesnt seem to understand that the mathmatical odds are against him

there are about 7 billion people on this planet..perhaps as much as 3/7ths of those or more have internet access

this game of course will eventually expand into other continents and countrys

for darth halford to say that he can accurately estimate the hopes and wishes and desires of as many,if not more than 3 billion people...is literally scientifically and physically impossible

literally...everyone will have an exactly random set of desires..that is the nature of the universe,that everything in each person is subtly different

so thus,logically..someone else that insists otherwise,can be singled out quite easily as an error..a genetic blip..

infact,i got a link to explain this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_graph

using this graph you can easily see where mr halford is the problem

the only way foward in reality,is the famous analogy "throw as many darts at the dartboard as you can,and see how many stick"....people must suggest well thought ideas at random,and see what works

using the graph link i provided,you can see than anyone that suggests otherwise is infact the problem

Dont worry about that bit Bap, he thinks that lorewise its quite ok for a sith lord to dance around a cantina full of happy happy thoughts or doing saturday night fever on the dancefloor.

Let me give an example of what he wants in the game http://youtu.be/qXp8T097vjc http://youtu.be/yvOF_SYZpHo

It is quite easy to see why combat class's shouldnt be doing this.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

Baphomet_x · July 18, 2012

Dont worry about that bit Bap, he thinks that lorewise its quite ok for a sith lord to dance around a cantina fulkl of happy happy thoughts or doing saturday night fever on the dancefloor.

Let me give an example of what he wants in the game http://youtu.be/qXp8T097vjc http://youtu.be/yvOF_SYZpHo

XD that is the most rediculous thing i have ever heard..most likely a sith lord would get shot or fryed on sight for doing that...it demonstrates disloyalty to the emporer

Shingara · July 18, 2012

XD that is the most rediculous thing i have ever heard..most likely a sith lord would get shot or fryed on sight for doing that...it demonstrates disloyalty to the emporer

Lol ye, not to mention darth_halford is on about actualy trying to not add to the game but totaly redesign the game to incorperate this into the combat classes. The logistsics and development required to alter the crafting, the combat classes skills, builds, talent trees etc etc etc is just insane and has way to much chance of breaking the combat classes.

If this is done it has to be done as its own entity within the game, with its own purpose and own set of rules.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

eGraced · July 18, 2012

This isn't SWG 2. Just let it go.

This.

Shingara · July 18, 2012

This isn't SWG 2. Just let it go.

This.

Word and signed.

This isnt wow2, just let it go.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

Baphomet_x · July 18, 2012

redesigning the entire game..not very wise....

not very wise at all when the game is less than a year old and is still in flux...thats what killed the sega game consoles..too many redesigns too quickly

we must evolve,and shingi`s idea is evolution from what we have...

this will NOT be world of warcraft 2,where they cram all of these things into the combat classes like its a dang horror themed carnival..this is star wars..this will always be star wars

and until lucas arts says otherwise,the combat classes will not be dancing,music playing,food chef weirdos that can also use the force in such a way as to alter the whole galaxy

in the star wars universe these things are relegated to people who exclusively preform them

so in other words...lucas arts has spoken..and everyone in this argument aside from me and shingi and those like us has lost...because we,are on lucas art`s side...the only side that ever wins

Edited July 18, 2012 by Baphomet_x

4 combat class's / 4 social class's

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