Why some classes are "better"?

[Dmasterr]

With posting wrong statements yourself?

 

Prove it.

[fujeo-finel]

It is impossible to balance the game around the absolute worst players ever, because no matter what you come up with, they will still be bad at it.

 

Skill can not compensate for balance, since a class played by a skill player is still subjected to the same game mechanics as the class being played by a less skilled player.

 

Wrong.

Edited July 13, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Never_Hesitate]

But we are still subjected to the same laws of physics. That is my point.

 

That regardless of how good you are, reality applies to all.

 

What "you" are trying to do... (ill use your example)... is start a running race (you know, competition and all).... then ask to nerf the ppl better than you, or special treatment for yourself.

 

That is the gist of it, you ask to modify the race rules.. so "you" get preferential treatment. Is that fair?

 

All in all, you want to dumb down the game to the extent that there is no difference when it is played by a monkey or idk a brain surgeon.

 

How can competition exist in a place like that? i think you are looking for PvE, where mobs do not care if they are at a disadvantage, they do not care if the rules are not fair.

 

I don't want to dumb down the race.

I want to get a fair chance to get the same result with the same effort, skill, gear.

 

To transfer into the game:

With my Pyro Pt I can easily get a ton of dmg by using one main attack and about 3-4 other attacks.(Along with a few cd's) all my attacks are instant, I can do this on the move

 

On my sorc I have to do a rotation of about 3 attack to build up my procs and 3 to use them, if I get interrupted once I might have to start over again. While I'm doing this I have to stand still to cast and am vunerable against everything, I don't even have a def cd.

 

Does that seem like a fair point to start with?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[Dmasterr]

Wrong.

 

Prove it.

[Dmasterr]

I don't want to dumb down the race.

I want to get a fair chance to get the same result with the same effort, skill, gear.

So, the laws of physics are different for "other ppl" ? (game mechanics in game)

To transfer into the game:

With my Pyro Pt I can easily get a ton of dmg by using one main attack and about 3-4 other attacks.(Along with a few cd's) all my attacks are instant, I can do this on the move

 

On my sorc I have to do a rotation of about 3 attack to build up my procs and 3 to use them, if I get interrupted once I might have to start over again. While I'm doing this I have to stand still to cast and am vunerable against everything, I don't even have a def cd.

 

Does that seem like a fair point to start with?

 

This wasn't a talk about class vs class. This was a talk about players playing the same class, and how the existence of very successful players prove that the class has the tools to be successful, and it is the players problem for "his" inability to play the class correctly.

 

Same as... some ppl cant drive. Is it the cars fault? / some ppl can't swim. Is it the waters fault?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr

[fujeo-finel]

Prove it.

 

Yea, you just lost.

 

Good day to you sir.

[Never_Hesitate]

So, the laws of physics are different for "other ppl" ? (game mechanics in game)

No, they are not, but look at the title of the thread and tell me:

Is this thread about game mechanics?

Or do you just fail and this thread is about class imbalance and all my posts are about that?

 

This wasn't a talk about class vs class. This was a talk about players playing the same class, and how the existence of very successful players prove that the class has the tools to be successful, and it is the players problem for "his" inability to play the class correctly.

 

Same as... some ppl cant drive. Is it the cars fault? / some ppl can't swim. Is it the waters fault?

It isn't the waters fault, but we are talking about a game, right?

Except from skill and time, all players should have the same environment given by the devs, shouldn't they?

I know rl isn't fair, but a game shouldn't give you a head start because you picked the right class.

You should be better than me, because you have the better gear or more skill, not because you play a pyro pt and I play a sorc.

 

Please start a new thread if you want to discuss game mechanics, this thread is about class imbalance.

[Dmasterr]

Yea, you just lost.

 

Good day to you sir.

 

Are you 5yo?

[Roiz]

I know rl isn't fair, but a game shouldn't give you a head start because you picked the right class.

You should be better than me, because you have the better gear or more skill, not because you play a pyro pt and I play a sorc.

.

I made a conclusion that one of the best skill in MMO is to choose the right class in time.

[Never_Hesitate]

Are you 5yo?

 

I don't think he is, but he is reasonable enough to see that you think you're always right and discussing with you will not get anyone anywhere.

It's you who acts like a 5 year old kid.

 

I only discuss with you, because there are people out there, who would believe you were right if noone answered

[Never_Hesitate]

I made a conclusion that one of the best skill in MMO is to choose the right class in time.

 

You could just lvl all classes at the same time and always play the new fotm

[Dmasterr]

No, they are not, but look at the title of the thread and tell me:

Is this thread about game mechanics?

Or do you just fail and this thread is about class imbalance and all my posts are about that?

 

 

It isn't the waters fault, but we are talking about a game, right?

Except from skill and time, all players should have the same environment given by the devs, shouldn't they?

I know rl isn't fair, but a game shouldn't give you a head start because you picked the right class.

You should be better than me, because you have the better gear or more skill, not because you play a pyro pt and I play a sorc.

 

Please start a new thread if you want to discuss game mechanics, this thread is about class imbalance.

 

I know what this thread is about. Thing is : class power and performance is relative, relative to other classes. Which is how it should be.

 

Now the problem is that, perceived class power and performance is also Subjective.. Some players can not properly estimate a class's power and performance.

 

When you say, "the class" is not powerful enough to compete... because "this and that" and yet there are players who are at the top of the competition with that very class; it makes your statement wrong.

 

Biggest problem is that perceived class power and performance is subjective first , and relative second. And give you a false premise for your opinions and judgments. As long as you are not capable to play your class to maximum potential you will not have an accurate view of the classes performance and power.

[Dmasterr]

I don't think he is, but he is reasonable enough to see that you think you're always right and discussing with you will not get anyone anywhere.

It's you who acts like a 5 year old kid.

 

I only discuss with you, because there are people out there, who would believe you were right if noone answered

 

I am not always right, but if someone thinks i am not... i would like him to prove it. Given sufficient proof i will change my opinion accordingly.

 

I welcome the opportunity to grow and improve, but you can not reasonably expect me to accept unsubstantiated claims as being accurate and true.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Never_Hesitate]

I know what this thread is about. Thing is : class power and performance is relative, relative to other classes. Which is how it should be.

 

Now the problem is that, perceived class power and performance is also Subjective.. Some players can not properly estimate a class's power and performance.

 

When you say, "the class" is not powerful enough to compete... because "this and that" and yet there are players who are at the top of the competition with that very class; it makes your statement wrong.

 

Biggest problem is that perceived class power and performance is subjective first , and relative second. And give you a false premise for your opinions and judgments. As long as you are not capable to play your class to maximum potential you will not have an accurate view of the classes performance and power.

 

It doesn't make my statement wrong.

I said:

With same gear, skill, effort, the classes should be able to do the same numbers.

 

Do you even read my replies or do you just tell me I'm wrong?

[Never_Hesitate]

I am not always right, but if someone thinks i am not... i would like him to prove it. Given sufficient proof i will change my opinion accordingly.

 

I welcome the opportunity to grow and improve, but you can not reasonably expect me to accept unsubstantiated claims as being accurate and true.

 

So you just tell everybody to L2P.

We're all lucky to have you here.

[Dmasterr]

It doesn't make my statement wrong.

I said:

With same gear, skill, effort, the classes should be able to do the same numbers.

 

Do you even read my replies or do you just tell me I'm wrong?

 

Your view of class performance is narrow. Not everything is a dps /hps race. You have to take into account class utility, cc, synergy with other classes etc.

 

For example. If you make all classes be capable of same burst same dps, then classes with more utility will have a massive advantage... classes with the capability to heal when needed =massive advantage.

 

You can not balance one niche of the class in 1 particular role to equality with all others, without taking into account all the other factors.

 

"Hey look we all do the same damage and burst, but i have invisibility aoe cc and can heal, where as you can only do damage." Balanced right?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Dmasterr]

So you just tell everybody to L2P.

We're all lucky to have you here.

 

I am telling "everybody" (people who need help, who need to know they should not give up and keep learning because they are nowhere near close to the class capability), that while classes do have problems... they are nowhere near as big as they claim. And nothing is making it impossible to compete.

 

The #1 problem is that most players never bothered to actually learn their class. Not to mention try and play all classes the same, where each class has a different role. Classes have strengths and weaknesses learn to utilize them better.

 

For example : when someone fails at TETRIS, and start whining and complaining.... do you tell them that they need to nerf TETRIS? or do you tell them that they need to practice more and improve... you know L2P.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Raice]

So... I've played a Scoundrel pretty much since launch. I took about 3 months off for school, which was right around the time right after 1.1 (the Scoundrel/Operative Nerf) but got back into the swing of it again earlier this month (1.3). All I can say is this...

 

Scoundrel was never "easy" to play. It was always frustrating. What made it frustrating before 1.1 was that we had a niche. A fourth of our battle was observing the opportunity to present itself on the battlefield. The second quarter was just getting to the opportunity without breaking stealth. The third quarter was the rotation. The last quarter was escaping before we died. That was pretty much how PvP worked for us. I make it sound more simple than it actually was, but I will get more into that later. As frustrating as the class was... it had some VERY good rewards for playing it correctly. If you did what you were supposed to be doing... you were rewarded very sweetly for it. Scoundrels/Ops who dominated in PvP Pre-1.1 were not OP... they were good players who were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

 

I know a lot of people think the nerf we got was needed... but I still stand by my original argument and nothing anyone has said in argument of it even comes close to debunking it: Scoundrel/Op wasn't overpowered - Rakata Stims, Expertise, and Surge (linked to Rakata Stims) is what broke the class - just like it broke every other class, that no one wants to seem to acknowledge except other Scoundrel/Ops who realized the problem from first hand experience. The class NEVER had OP issues in the 40-49 PvP range when you had all the Skills you needed to do what you needed to do, and you didn't have Rakata Stims or Expertise. Moreover, the class never had OP issues against opposing players who were better geared. Furthermore, the class never had OP issues against opposing players with equal Expertise lvls who were also using Rakata stims. Think about it - Scoundrel/Op were not the only classes that grinded out Biochem. Everyone else did too... for good reason - Surge.

 

What broke PvP in this game was the ridiculous levels people were abusing Surge (Rakata Stims anyone?) ALL classes were using Surge - even the ones that had nothing to do with Surge. Surge was so broken, it was the only thing you needed in PvP besides Expertise. Shield Rating, Absorption, Endurance, etc? No. You don't need it. The best defense is a powerful offense. The best offense is Surge. You'll notice the very first thing they did after they nerfed Scoundrel/Op - was nerf Surge. It did not take them a week after 1.1 to do this. Why? Because Healers were dominating - because of bonus healing dealt by an astronomical increase in Surge. They weren't just dominating... they simply could not be killed even with an entire team focus-firing. It was even worse when there was more than 1 healer. Why? Because the people who kept the healers in check were nerfed - Scoundrels and Operatives. What broke us to begin with was the nerf to our opener and the accompanying 3s Knockdown.

 

I won't get into the details of it, but suffice it to say, 1.1 put a HUGE damper on our ability to follow through with our 4 part plan I mentioned above. Basically, we would do the same sort of strategy we always had (because there IS not other strategy - we were playing it the way it was designed to be played), except now, we weren't killing our targets, and we literally had no way of escaping our death without backup. Even with Medium Armor... we were and still are, the squishiest class in the game. Why? Because we have NO Defense. NONE. ZERO. NADA. "Break line of sight!" you say? Please. That might work really well for you when you have a crap ton of defense/HP, or an ability that breaks ALL damage on you for an extended period of time, or a way to go stealth without it breaking by anything and everything which happens constantly, or an ability to run faster than a Swoop bike without fearing snares or roots - you know... like EVERY OTHER CLASS HAS! Whatever... I digress...

 

So they nerfed Surge. I don't even know what happened to the game after that, since I stopped playing. I had school, and I was beyond pissed. Nerfing Surge and the Rakata Stims should have been the very first thing they did to correct the PvP issues. Our classes never should have been touched. NONE of the classes should have been touched - period. Now... the whole thing is a total mess. Nerfing Surge (the ONE stat we NEEDED the most that every other class DIDN'T) was the coup de grace. That's basically when our class became the completely useless waste of space it is today.

 

The point I am making here is my class is now extremely complicated to play. It was already complicated. Now... I don't think I've worked so hard in a game before in my life. And the payoff isn't even evident of the effort I put into it. I cannot tell you how many times I have lost to a Marauder since I started playing. The same thing happens every single time - I will be at full health, they'll have a sliver of life left, suddenly I am doing no damage to them at all, and my HP is gone in a matter of seconds. There is nothing I can do. I cannot tell you how many times I have been stun locked by an Inquisitor. I can't move, I'm out of range, and I am literally fried to death. I cannot tell you how many times I have spent 2 full bars of Energy trying to kill a single healer, only to just give up and run away because I am wasting my time on them. I cannot tell you how many times I have been totally decimated by a Bounty Hunter or a Sniper. The only time I ever see a Scoundrel/Op do well is when they are in full War Hero gear, and they are fighting against people who probably are still working to get their Battlemaster set.

 

I know people have perfect strategies worked out to combat the tactics employed by all the different classes - but that is the point of this thread. Scoundrel/Op basically has to adjust its play-style according to every other class in the game. We don't have a 1 trick pony strategy that works no matter what. That is what makes the class so hard to play. And even if you do it right... if you're outgeared... you won't win. If they get the drop on you - you won't win. If you don't have someone healing you - you won't win.

 

Yes - most classes that dominate do so because they are easier to play.

 

But also, yes - most classes dominate simply because they are more powerful.

 

My class is neither - and I can tell you this for sure:

 

1. If my target is at half-health;

2. And if my target is already being attacked by 1 or more of my teammates;

3. And if I manage to get to my target before something totally random happens that breaks my stealth;

4. And if everything in my rotation is not on cooldown;

5. Then yes... I will probably end up killing my target...

6. If my teammates don't kill him first.

[Never_Hesitate]

Your view of class performance is narrow. Not everything is a dps /hps race. You have to take into account class utility, cc, synergy with other classes etc.

 

For example. If you make all classes be capable of same burst same dps, then classes with more utility will have a massive advantage... classes with the capability to heal when needed =massive advantage.

 

You can not balance one niche of the class in 1 particular role to equality with all others, without taking into account all the other factors.

 

"Hey look we all do the same damage and burst, but i have invisibility aoe cc and can heal, where as you can only do damage." Balanced right?

 

I see that not all classes have the same utility, but how did bw mangae to get a class high burst, def cd's, taunt/aoe taunt, a pull and all of that instant

While other classes have a friendly pull, no def cd's, a bubble, a sprint and the whole burst attacks are casted/channeled? (While doing dmg you cannot heal effectivly -> long cast times, easly interruptable)

Edited July 13, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[Dmasterr]

That is what makes the class so hard to play. And even if you do it right... if you're outgeared... you won't win. If they get the drop on you - you won't win. If you don't have someone healing you - you won't win.

 

Yes - most classes that dominate do so because they are easier to play.

 

But also, yes - most classes dominate simply because they are more powerful.

 

My class is neither - and I can tell you this for sure:

 

1. If my target is at half-health;

2. And if my target is already being attacked by 1 or more of my teammates;

3. And if I manage to get to my target before something totally random happens that breaks my stealth;

4. And if everything in my rotation is not on cooldown;

5. Then yes... I will probably end up killing my target...

6. If my teammates don't kill him first.

 

To long of a post to quote, and for the most part you were just saying stuff without having a point. However what i want to tell you is :

 

hang in there, keep practicing it will get better.

 

I don't even remember the last time i had a problem killing someone in 1v1, and if you play your class right not only you will not be a detriment to your team, but you will be an important addition that will give your team access to more varied and powerful tactics and strategy.

[Never_Hesitate]

To long of a post to quote, and for the most part you were just saying stuff without having a point. However what i want to tell you is :

 

hang in there, keep practicing it will get better.

 

I don't even remember the last time i had a problem killing someone in 1v1, and if you play your class right not only you will not be a detriment to your team, but you will be an important addition that will give your team access to more varied and powerful tactics and strategy.

 

Only if there aren't too many of that class in your team

[Dmasterr]

I see that not all classes have the same utility, but how did bw mangae to get a class high burst, def cd's, taunt/aoe taunt, a pull and all of that instant

While other classes have a friendly pull, no def cd's, a bubble, a sprint and the whole burst attacks are casted/channeled?

 

You can heal.

 

...and sprint, knockback etc are defensive cooldowns. Not front of the line defensive cooldowns, but battlefield control, kiting cooldowns.

 

And your biggest burst attack as a dps pvp sorc, is death field which is instant, along with shock and dots, which are also instant.

 

If you just stay there chaining force lightning, you are doing it wrong.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr

[fujeo-finel]

I am telling "everybody" (people who need help, who need to know they should not give up and keep learning because they are nowhere near close to the class capability), that while classes do have problems... they are nowhere near as big as they claim. And nothing is making it impossible to compete.

 

The #1 problem is that most players never bothered to actually learn their class. Not to mention try and play all classes the same, where each class has a different role. Classes have strengths and weaknesses learn to utilize them better.

 

For example : when someone fails at TETRIS, and start whining and complaining.... do you tell them that they need to nerf TETRIS? or do you tell them that they need to practice more and improve... you know L2P.

 

Prove it.

[shegoy]

I play a Pyro PT as an alt and tbh skill does play apart as well as situational awareness and teamwork in being successful winning WZ's is not about kills,damage etc.

Success is based on objectives If the members of your team cannot apply themselves correctly and in a way that compliments each other you will fail.

 

I have yet to have found a situation where i could just mindlessly charge into a group of people spamming my so called easy kill rotation and not die within a few seconds.

 

If i try to take down healers against a good team they close in and defend that healer The community has already found away to balance out things already every-time i show my face with my flame icon im focused down to keep me out of the fight iv now become a 3-4 sec meat-shield for my team so that appears to be my new role currently to form a distraction for my team as i have no real defensive capability 25% damage reduction gives me an extra second or two under heavy assault.

 

And honestly if that is what i have to do now then so be it i don't care about my skill rating etc i aim to support my team in the best way possible to get a win not lone wolf it ,there is no gratification in me hitting big numbers and leading the board when my team fails and everyone's complaining in ops chat how s... we are

Edited July 13, 2012 by shegoy

[Dmasterr]

Prove it.

 

Im sorry, did you miss the screenshots of high rated players playing the so called "underpowered" classes that are supposedly impossible to compete with?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr