Marqhill Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Before anyone mistakes me for a random QQ'er I'm going to begin this by saying that I'm actually a Guardian and not a Sorc/Sage. I've never played that class. I currently have no intention of playing the class either. I'm very happy with both DPS specs for my Guardian and I hope that doesn't change any time soon. But just from having done several PvP War Zones as both Guardian DPS classes I can say without question that there is a significant problem with Sorc/Sage War Zone survivability. There's a dramatic difference in the overall survivability of this class in pre-50 war zones and post 50 war zones overall. In pre-50 war zones they seem reasonably invincible due to their damage absorbing bubble that they can cast. Dealing with this bubble can be a pretty frustrating experience pre-50. However, post 50 the bubble is the exact opposite. The bubble is about as good as nothing post level 50. I consistently hit sorcs for anywhere from 2.5 - 5k damage through the bubble depending on what spec I'm playing at the time. This is really a shame because of the fact that they really seem to depend on that for a lot of their survivability. I think the problem is that this defensive bubble doesn't scale particularly well at all. It absorbs a certain flat amount of damage and that's really it. At lower levels it absorbs what seems like WAY too much damage and at the higher levels it doesn't seem to offer nearly enough protection. This is causing a lot of the light armor wearing sorcs/sages to just plain melt in war zones as soon as they're focused. Wouldn't it make sense for the amount of damage that the bubble absorbs scales with the Sorc/Sages stats and level? I think that would really help with a lot of the current survivability issues that I percieve them as having. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like they have a survivability issue. Mostly because of how fast I kill them regardless of defensive cool downs. I can't imagine that's supposed to be normal. God forbid they ever get hit by a Powertech/Vanguard as well. They just explode in about 4 shots. Anyway, that's just how I feel. I mean considering that they nerfed the Sorc/Sage damage there really isn't a reason for them to die so fast anymore I think. Agree? Disagree? Let me know how you guys feel. It just feels really unbalanced to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancelotOC Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 The bubble is actually tied to stats and scales it's just it scales as a heal or a .17 per stat instead of .23 for dps. So it's base 2500 + bonus healing. At pre-50 where people wouldn't hit for much in open world with no bolster buff it's powerful because of its high base value. The truth is the bubble is not worth a lot comapred to DPS abilities simply because it can't crit or take advantage of surge. So as people build up their stats and crits it seems real weak in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangarrage Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 idk I think the bubble has merit and I think the sorc has to become very mobile to be successful As a sniper I can say I cannot even count the number of sorcs who avoided death due to los or force speed putting them oor then they cast a heal or 2 then back into the action A sorcerer that stands, for example, in the ball area of huttball has a very short life expectancy but so does a sniper and op and dps merc and the merc and sniper have no escapability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rompdomp Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) The bubble is actually tied to stats and scales it's just it scales as a heal or a .17 per stat instead of .23 for dps. So it's base 2500 + bonus healing. At pre-50 where people wouldn't hit for much in open world with no bolster buff it's powerful because of its high base value. The truth is the bubble is not worth a lot comapred to DPS abilities simply because it can't crit or take advantage of surge. So as people build up their stats and crits it seems real weak in comparison. I haven't been able to tell whether or not it benefits from force power, I wish it would tell you the amount it absorbs when you mouse over the buff icon after you cast it. If it does benefit from power, you are on the money that it not benefiting from crit / surge makes that pretty useless. Going from recruit gear to augmented WH would only make it absorb about 100-200 more damage right? (or whatever 17% of the total force power difference in those 2 sets is). Edited July 11, 2012 by Rompdomp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterone Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) Thank you dude, you sound exactly like us sorcs did 9 months ago. Everyone sub-50 was complaining how amazing the bubble was and how it was the best defensive cool-down in the game, and the fully geared level 50 pvpers always knew it was crap. Unfortunately, this perceived greatness of 'the bubble' prevented the sorcerer class from ever getting a REAL defensive cool-down, which is what the class really needs. Edited July 11, 2012 by Monterone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntranced Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Actually it isn't just the bubble that doesn't scale well, neither does Sorc/Sage damage. This is true generally but particularly true post 50 and when you start taking in to account the increases in damage/lower TTK overall since launch the picture becomes even bleaker. With particular reference to the bubble it would be useful to know exactly how the numbers are made up, and why they haven't changed when just about everything else in the game has. I don't imagine it can scale well for PVE either - I'm sure 3500 bubble is fine in BT story mode but maybe not so useful in nightmare ops?). It may well be true that we can often LOS and heal up in this game, but actually that is becoming rarer and rarer - the chance for me to force speed is low, the chance I'm not rooted/stunned or leaped to/grappled is low. There is a good chance that another enemy class is round the corner anyway. If I'm madness (the only really viable PVP spec right now) I'm likely to be low on force so after 3 heals (no way I need less than that) I'm out of force and gimped. Frankly Sorc/Sage needs a complete review from top to bottom - heals, DPS, utility. Now that Georg has gone maybe we will get some fresh eyes on a number of classes (merc. operatives, sorcs) that aren't so arrogant with their opinions (e.g. that sorc/sage healers just aren't playing the game right, operatives are stunlocking people to unsub etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thank you dude, you sound exactly like us sorcs did 9 months ago. Everyone sub-50 was complaining how amazing the bubble was and how it was the best defensive cool-down in the game, and the fully geared level 50 pvpers always knew it was crap. Unfortunately, this perceived greatness of 'the bubble' prevented the sorcerer class from ever getting a REAL defensive cool-down, which is what the class really needs. I always got a kick out of the argument that our bubble was OP when you consider that it gets applied evenly to ALL players in any given warzone. The people complaining about it benefited from it just as much as the sorc does since it can be cast on them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) OP you did notice this by yourself not even playing this class? I wonder why alot people dont even understand why sages/sorc arent good on Ranked PvP and stacking melee/PT and what not. I also have main sage, and i can tell you are on right track. Before people got really well geared for pvp and DPS boost with augments (patch 1.3) and what not sages could benefit from bubble and stay alive longer. This was also before the skill tree's changed a bit (procs...) and what is happening now in Ranked WZ you pointed out correctly. The burst damage is alot higher now due to stacking more crit and whatnot with augments. Bubble even when traited for extra absorb doesnt help anymore. Another thing thats an issue on top of self defence as sage is lack of burst dps compared to other dps traited classes that can dish out huge amount of damage in seconds (Pyro hint hint). Actually sage got abolutely no burst dps, unless you sit on one spot and trying to CAST high hitting skills, thats not an option in ranked WZ if you die really fast. So it seems to me that because Sages are really low armor, really low defence skills choices (forget CC in ranked you when someone has resolve full and htting you hard) on top of low burst and then you see whats the issue here. There are heavy armor classes running around with lots of cc and burst and defence skills. After having played many alts including guard on pvp, i also see there are issues as sage and not small ones. Why i think so? Well sages in PVE are doing quite well because ops fights last long and then its not a problem. Same as when you are healing spec, they doing very well aswell. Problem is dps specced sages in pvp. I doubt bioware will look at all the high burst damage dealing classes and tune them down due to augments and such that gave alot boost. Due to light armor and no good burst and lack of defence, that is what makes them easy pick. I dont think sages are even ment to be taking alot hits with defences, but then they should at least have good burst to be a threat to others call it class cannon if you wish, but at least one good thing copared to many other classes that are getting stacked lately. PS to Bioware. Forum or community here usaully only speaks about classes that are OP or FOTM or whatever. They are hot discussion always if they should be nerfed or not. Its the human nature to pick something that is too good to pass when using that for own good. Balance is where choosing class is HARD due to cons and pros are equal compared to other classes Edited July 11, 2012 by Divona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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