End Game Woes & the LFG Tool without an iLvL ?

[Delorae]

Doesn't tionese / energized gear drop from normal modes now?

No one is being excluded from anything... People are being lazy and relying on people to carry them.

I would NEVER do that to 3 other people. Why would you even want to be the reason for a wipe?

Run normal modes, put a minimum stat requirement for T1/T2 HM.

This is the only Dungeon finder I've seen that doesn't have a gear requirement...

What the heck were they thinking?

Edited July 8, 2012 by Delorae

[Pubsam]

I fail to see why those of us in small guilds should be forced to abandon our merry bands and join the few larger guilds that raid simply to do end game content. We don't want to be a part of a bunch of people who we may not have anything in common with simply to do that. It's not equal the way that things are set up at the moment, and yet we all pay the same amount monthly. Surely with the decline in subscription levels, you guys want to keep the loyal players that you do have?

 

You aren't forced to do anything to experience end game! Pugging HM OPs is very doable. Sure it's not as easy as being in a guild. It's not as easy as the mythical LFG tool you want that will magically place you in a competent group of well-geared people. Perhaps this tool on top of having a gearcheck will have you solve a logic problem, and then have you maneuver an obstacle course, so you can enter the Op confident they have some baseline intelligence.

 

Point is, sure, they could add HM OPs to the LFG and institute a gearcheck. But you don't need to be good at anything to have highly rated gear. You get 5 BH comms everyday. HM FPs are very easy and drop Columi. You'll see people wearing DPS tier to heal or tank. So even with the LFG you're still gonna have to interact with the other raiders, evaluate their performance and if they are actually ready to be there, and at that point it's not much less effort than pugging from general chat. An impersonal LFG tool works for SM OPs and FPs because they're so easy. When content gets harder you need to engage your fellow players.

 

Also, if you want a guaranteed no cutscenes run... DON'T PUG! You surely have at least 4 people in your selective snob guild who feel the same way... or at least know others who feel the same way. Why don't you all agree to do your daily together!

[Skidrowbro]

Except that when these others are enjoying themselves, we are not. So why do you feel that the people who actually do their best to gear up should be punished so that others can have fun?

 

 

And a little sidenote: Do people realise that it's probably easier to get BH stuff now than Rakata.

 

We end up with hundres of useless tionese crystals/commendations, I have a couple hundred columi commendations and I have 4 BH items, but other than my crafted ones and the earpiece, I only ever had one Rakata drop on my main. I now have a mix of Columi, Rakata and BH and all because I haven't been able to do much HM Ops yet. I upgraded my off hand from tionese to BH because that was the easiest. Sense it makes none.

 

Gear progression should make more sense on various levels and the LFG tool needs more options and a better reward system.

 

I don't see how a 20-minute BT HM gets the same reward as 2.5 hours of mucking about with people in SM EV because the all of the DPS were undergeared...exaggeration? Nope, I had that experience tonight thank you very much.

 

Don't use the tool, plain and simple. If you want your precious loot, get the same kind of players you want by advertising. The tool wasn't made just for you.

[EternalChild]

We wanted a tool that would make sure that their level of gearing was not dissimilar to ours, and therefore give us a reasonable expectation of their skill levels.

Unfortunately Gear != Skill != Manners. I have seen characters in Tionese performing better than characters in Rakata. I have seen well-geared and skilled players acting like utter jerks, causing wipes and rage-quitting. I think the best solution for your problem is to build a network of friends in other guilds, whom you can invite to your runs. But in order to acquire friends, you need to join PUGs, there is no other way...

[Fornix]

Yes, we need something to exclude others from enjoying the game with us and not helping them out. Please make it happen Bioware

 

It's not too strange really, however it shouldn't be a major hassle, but regular progression wouldn't be bad.

 

Think of it like this:

 

Want to unlock access to HM flashpoints? First run the equivalent normal one. Want to unlock tier 2 flashpoints? First finish up on the tier 1 flashpoints.

 

Want to unlock operations? At least finish up tier 1 HM flashpoints.

 

Eventually this way they can also much easier introduce hard mode operations after having finished story modes. And perhaps even nightmare modes after having completed the hard modes.

[maelstromicus]

I should have known better than to attempt to make a constructive post to try and explain some of our concerns.

Unfortunately, some of the replies received further go to illustrate the types of mentality we're dealing with in-game.

 

To the trolls, please at least take the time to read and comprehend the initial post before simply replying to a)raise your post count, b)start pointless flame wars.

 

The original post was made from the perspective of people who have already done their hard work grinding out their base lvl 50 gear, then their Tio gear, then their Columi gear, and also ground out countless hours of dailies to get Rak pieces. Then we also ran EV NM's & KP NM's to get further gear. We've put our time in working our gear sets up before any LFG tool, now all we ask is a tool to enable us to get to the next level without being forced into disbanding and joining larger guilds.

 

Let me explain iLvL again in more detail for the couple of trolls in particular who seem to be unable to read.

 

iLvL takes the average level gear of the individual and places them in a group of other people with a similar range of individual iLvL's. Therefore, you would be gearing up together, in the same way as those of us with better gear also had to do. It seems to me so far that the loudest repliers are those that expect better geared people to boost them up. That is fine when we offer to do so, but to expect us to do so as the norm for the lfg tool is simply wrong. We also have the right, as longer term paying customers, to enjoy our game experience. We're not simply here to provide educational and boosting services for newer players!!!

 

I appreciate the comment that one other poster made about having the same level gear being no guarantee that the player would be of the same playing ability. I entirely agree, and again, if you read my initial post clearly you would see that I did state that. I said that it gives you a more reasonable expectation that they would be closer to your playing ability.

 

Finally, as an example, if said tool did exist and we were queued as a 4 man party with 2 tanks, 1 dps, & a healer in full Col/Rak/BH gear for a KP HM or an EC SM; surely it is more than reasonable to expect that the remainder of the players found via a tool would also be geared to a similar standard in order to give us a fighting chance of completing hard mode operations. Obviously then we still have communications issues for synchronisation of puzzles/bosses etc etc, but at least half the party wouldn't get wiped by the trash mobs in their Tio gear...

[amnie]

It's not too strange really, however it shouldn't be a major hassle, but regular progression wouldn't be bad.

 

Think of it like this:

 

Want to unlock access to HM flashpoints? First run the equivalent normal one. Want to unlock tier 2 flashpoints? First finish up on the tier 1 flashpoints.

 

Want to unlock operations? At least finish up tier 1 HM flashpoints.

 

Eventually this way they can also much easier introduce hard mode operations after having finished story modes. And perhaps even nightmare modes after having completed the hard modes.

 

so... let me get this straight... you think it's a good idea that I need to run Taral V 8 times in normal mode to be able to do Maelstrom Prison on HM? (this, y'know, you need to do T5 to be able to do Mealstrom)

how about no?

 

and if I already ran operations with my guild and geared up like that - without doing hm fp... I should still be locked out of doing it with the group finder? heh. yeah.

 

how about we just leave the system exactly the way it is? if you don't want to do pug runs, then don't. easy enough.

 

and if your guild is not big enough to do operations alone find people to do them with regularly.

 

you find GOOD people with the group finder aswell. in fact I've done a normal mode KP run with some other guild - through the group finder - a while ago. we were done in a little more than 30 minutes and didn't die once except for when that stupid stun droid was bugged out and we had one dps less the entire second boss fight... (and even that wasn't a wipe)

[Styxx]

When my Operative Healer hit 50, I barely had any time doing dailies to get my orange gear better, but was still invited into a HM LI and completed just fine. We even had a fresh 50 tank.

 

Also a lot of DPS is still skill required. However the player placed his skill points, and what sort of sequence of attacks they use. So there is still, bad players will still be bad players.

 

Unequip your gear and write down your stats.

Equip your gear and write down your stats.

Compare them.

Post them here.

 

Then tell us again how skill based this game is. Because, as far as I know... this is all a big gear check. And, no matter how good one player is... it will NEVER be able to compete with a rakata, being in tionese. (we are, obviously, talking about players, not trained chimps.)

[maelstromicus]

amnie, try reading the last reply I made above your reply. In particular the last section

 

Many Thanks.

[Tsillah]

Don't use the tool, plain and simple. If you want your precious loot, get the same kind of players you want by advertising. The tool wasn't made just for you.

 

Again, that doesn't mean it can't have options that are also useful for people like myself. You seem to say that only undergeared people should have fun or nobody.

[Fornix]

so... let me get this straight... you think it's a good idea that I need to run Taral V 8 times in normal mode to be able to do Maelstrom Prison on HM? (this, y'know, you need to do T5 to be able to do Mealstrom)

how about no?

 

and if I already ran operations with my guild and geared up like that - without doing hm fp... I should still be locked out of doing it with the group finder? heh. yeah.

 

how about we just leave the system exactly the way it is? if you don't want to do pug runs, then don't. easy enough.

 

and if your guild is not big enough to do operations alone find people to do them with regularly.

 

you find GOOD people with the group finder aswell. in fact I've done a normal mode KP run with some other guild - through the group finder - a while ago. we were done in a little more than 30 minutes and didn't die once except for when that stupid stun droid was bugged out and we had one dps less the entire second boss fight... (and even that wasn't a wipe)

 

Nowhere did I say running the same thing 8 times, once should be enough to unlock the next stage is what I wrote.

 

And as for doing it with a guild, yes, you should remain locked. Doing it with a guild is one thing, considering as to how for example EV and KP nightmare can be 7 manned or even 6 manned as guild, you have little need for those other 1 or 2 and can just drag people along. Within PUGs this is simply not always the case.

 

And sure you find good people within the group finder as well from time to time, however, it can also become a time of hell if people just blindly start joining in for everything. Ultimately leading to a situation in which people will simply stop using the tool to its full extent.

[Ryofo]

Your aware that stats are more important then Ilvl right? Take for example, a tank with properly modded columi gear has better stats then a tank with Rakata gear bought straight from the vendor because the stat gearing on most gear is crap, however the columi geared tank, despite having better stats, would be excluded from certain things using your Ilvl check.

 

I understand you predicament I am in full 61 mods and currently us the LFG tool to do 1 HP FP for comms I don't even need, the rest of the time I spend on a training dummy practicing, however I'm sorry to tell you this but if you want to run the content, then recruit people who are like minded and want to do it too rather then relying on Bioware to do all the work for you.

[amnie]

Nowhere did I say running the same thing 8 times, once should be enough to unlock the next stage is what I wrote.

 

And as for doing it with a guild, yes, you should remain locked. Doing it with a guild is one thing, considering as to how for example EV and KP nightmare can be 7 manned or even 6 manned as guild, you have little need for those other 1 or 2 and can just drag people along. Within PUGs this is simply not always the case.

 

And sure you find good people within the group finder as well from time to time, however, it can also become a time of hell if people just blindly start joining in for everything. Ultimately leading to a situation in which people will simply stop using the tool to its full extent.

 

I have 8 characters. going by your idea I will have to run NORMAL MODE TARAL V which all of them to be able to run HARD MODE MEALSTROM PRISON.

 

obviously you can't drag through with a pug. that wasn't my point. my point was that I could theoretically be dragged through hard mode KP to get me some rakata stuff the day I ding 50, run around with a few rakata pieces right away, obviously know the runs because... well.. I've already have a few 50s... and I still won't be allowed into a normal mode run of said operation because your idea says 'nope you have to do a hm fp first' (where in turn I'd have to do the normal version first)

 

 

 

I honestly don't understand all this drama anyway. am I the only one who so far has had mostly really positive experiences with the group finder? I've done a 20min group finder completely random LI run without a single death before. I can't be an exception.

[Tsillah]

Your aware that stats are more important then Ilvl right? Take for example, a tank with properly modded columi gear has better stats then a tank with Rakata gear bought straight from the vendor because the stat gearing on most gear is crap, however the columi geared tank, despite having better stats, would be excluded from certain things using your Ilvl check.

 

I understand you predicament I am in full 61 mods and currently us the LFG tool to do 1 HP FP for comms I don't even need, the rest of the time I spend on a training dummy practicing, however I'm sorry to tell you this but if you want to run the content, then recruit people who are like minded and want to do it too rather then relying on Bioware to do all the work for you.

 

I imagine they can make a tool for SWTOR where it checks stats instead of gear. The problem is also that we just got onto a new server with tons of people we don't know and have to figure out who the decent players are. So far the results have been a bit disheartening. It's easy if you just care about the raiding and not the people you're guilded with...just join any big raid guild, but expect lots of egos. Not my thing.

 

Or you go to a social guild where raiding is not important and everybody's welcome. Expect a mix of people who mean well and a number of ******es.

 

But it's when you're in between those groups and just want some decent people who you can have a laugh with and still have people with decent skill and gear.

 

Sure, you can do that without the LFG tool, but I think that since you want to gear up, you are pretty much forced to used the LFG tool.

 

All in all though I think that in its current state the LFG tool will be used by premade teams (which defeats the purpose of the LFG tool) and the new 50s who don't have a clue. I would think that it'd be better to get more out of this tool, but it will need some adjustments. Rewards need to be reviewed and player matching also. Just my point of view.

[Skidrowbro]

Again, that doesn't mean it can't have options that are also useful for people like myself. You seem to say that only undergeared people should have fun or nobody.

 

Wrong, I'm saying the tool wasn't designed just for you. You want fast easy mode fast runs for your precious, don't pug with the LFG. HM's shouldn't have even been added to the LFG tool

[Tsillah]

Wrong, I'm saying the tool wasn't designed just for you. You want fast easy mode fast runs for your precious, don't pug with the LFG. HM's shouldn't have even been added to the LFG tool

 

I don't know why you think you know or get to decide what's best for everyone. So let me just say there are different types of people who can be catered to at the same time. I want a tool that is more useful to more people, not just one group. There was a time when we had no LFG tool and people asked for it....guess what? People like you told them this game wasn't for them. Now, we have a LFG tool. Nothing wrong with improvements on it.

 

I want a LFG tool that is useful to more people, you are against it without any actual reason behind it. Now you say HM's shouldn't be part of it at all and again, no actual reasoning behind it....just another random statement. So, I do wonder, are you just trolling?

 

HM's are part of the LFG tool...if you're against that, maybe this isn't the game for you then huh?

Edited July 8, 2012 by Tsillah

[maelstromicus]

Wrong, I'm saying the tool wasn't designed just for you.

 

That's exactly the whole point of this thread. The LFG tool wasn't designed properly for the examples mentioned at the start. Maybe if you read the OP & it's subsequent explanation properly, instead of flaming at every opportunity, you might have derived that.

[Jetronin]

The point of LFG is to help players.

 

If you are geared, and you dont want to risk a random, you dont have to use LFG.

 

If you want to get yoru 5 BH comms, you should work for it, and this is by helping another. I regualy queue for LFG with 3 geared ppl, on occation we get a newbie and help him through, give advice if needed. The only thing I ever queue carefully for is LI HM, bascily ill chose my dps. If I have a newish tank or healer, I can teach them if I have 2 ranged dps there.

 

The LFG tool is not an instant gratification tool. It is there to help you and others. As it helps you get a group, its not wrong that it asks you to help that group. If you wnat a certain setup, or gear, you can take teh time to make the group yourselves?

 

 

Sorry about the bad spelling and gramma, I am rather dyslexic.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Jetronin

[Mallorik]

Wrong, I'm saying the tool wasn't designed just for you. You want fast easy mode fast runs for your precious, don't pug with the LFG. HM's shouldn't have even been added to the LFG tool

 

Then why let it bother you so much? dont use the damn lfg tool for hm if you dont like it. Its just as easy now to make a group without the lfg tool as it was before the lfg tool was implemented and if youre known as a good player its even easier.

 

Your inexplicable desire to ***** about the lfg tool that you are not forced to use baffles me almost as much as your inability to understand that throwing a fresh 50 in level 46 greens into a hm flashpoint is bad for the fresh 50 and bad for the group forced to try to carry him, its like you just dont understand the concept of a dps check or the fact that content is tuned to a certain gear level.

[Xerkrom]

Yeah, I love getting kicked out of groups because my gear isn't "good enough" Lets just make it even more difficult to get geared by adding a stat that lets elitist jerks have more reasons to kick you. Great idea. Really you should be on the design team.

[KitePolaris]

Wrong, I'm saying the tool wasn't designed just for you. You want fast easy mode fast runs for your precious, don't pug with the LFG. HM's shouldn't have even been added to the LFG tool

 

Next time I have a tank with 11k health try and tank HM LI for me, I'll let him know he's having fun and I don't mind. And yes, that actually has happened. I don't know how he had any fun, though. Y'know, due to the fact he couldn't stay alive with full campaign IA Healer and our DPS sorc both trying to keep him alive. That's an odd idea of fun.

 

Also, I like how people get upset at the prospective of having a tool that matched people's gear level. What's wrong with an all fresh 50 group? You can all learn together and benefit each other. You're only happy when you are being carried? It seems like a very strange standpoint. I love helping people through content, but there's a point if you're tanking with under 14k health or dint bother to mod your gear at 50.

Edited July 8, 2012 by KitePolaris

[Tsillah]

Yeah, I love getting kicked out of groups because my gear isn't "good enough" Lets just make it even more difficult to get geared by adding a stat that lets elitist jerks have more reasons to kick you. Great idea. Really you should be on the design team.

 

It's not about a stat...as explained it matches people together with similar gear. It's not about a system that let's you kick people for gear reasons but automatically selects people together who are more closely geared.

 

And besides, if your gear isn't good enough, you'll find soon enough that less and less people will use the LFG tool as it is. I'm pretty sure that that's where it's headed. Sure I need to get some BH comms now, but by wednesday I won't need it anymore. If it wasn't for the BH comms I would've stopped using it already.

 

There is another thread that discusses a new situation. People get a team together in LFG and then see that it's a crap team and leave. So they have to wait 12 mins before they can do it again. Apparently people rather do that than suffer that team. It even happens before the team is accepted. They recognise crap players and decline etc. I am pretty sure that this is going to happen more as time goes along.

[Mallorik]

Yeah, I love getting kicked out of groups because my gear isn't "good enough" Lets just make it even more difficult to get geared by adding a stat that lets elitist jerks have more reasons to kick you. Great idea. Really you should be on the design team.

 

Do you just not understand that almost all hm flashpoints have atleast one boss that has an enrage timer that cannot be beat without a certain level of gear no matter how good the players are?

 

And why do you think you deserve to just be carried through content? Why do you think you should not have to put in the tiny bit of effort it takes to be properly geared for the content you would like to do? Why do you think other people should put in more effort so you can put in less?

 

If the lfg tool had gear checks you wouldnt be kicked out of groups for trying to force everyone in your pug to help you skip all the steps they had to do to gear out their characters to make them ready for end game content.

 

You people act like the gearing would be crazy high. Hm fps are not hard, they do not take really good gear to beat, but hm pugs should not be strapped with people trying to take short cuts in green level 46 gear.

[Skidrowbro]

Next time I have a tank with 11k health try and tank HM LI for me, I'll let him know he's having fun and I don't mind. And yes, that actually has happened. I don't know how he had any fun, though. Y'know, due to the fact he couldn't stay alive with full campaign IA Healer and our DPS sorc both trying to keep him alive. That's an odd idea of fun.

 

Also, I like how people get upset at the prospective of having a tool that matched people's gear level. What's wrong with an all fresh 50 group? You can all learn together and benefit each other. You're only happy when you are being carried? It seems like a very strange standpoint. I love helping people through content, but there's a point if you're tanking with under 14k health or dint bother to mod your gear at 50.

 

You are reading my point backwards. It's the other people complaining that they have to carry others and want them removed from being able to try.

[KitePolaris]

You are reading my point backwards. It's the other people complaining that they have to carry others and want them removed from being able to try.

 

 

But carrying is only possible to a point. How can you agree to tanks in recruit DPS gear queuing for Operations and HM FPs? I don't care how good they are, gear does matter.