Two observations on open-world PvP on PvP servers....

[Spectus]

Okay, I know I'm on a PvP server, and getting shot at any time is part of the fun of it, but something happened last night that left me in a mode to propose some fixes for problems that I saw.

 

The Exploit: Imps Inside A Republic Base -- with no way to force them out!

Last night, a certain imp guild decided to attack the Republic Base Camp on Ilum. It was fun for a while as the fight raged back and forth in the snows of Ilum, even though only a couple of us on the Republic side chose to engage the Imps. I died a lot, killed a few, and eventually moved on to other things.

 

After a while, I logged onto my freshly-minted lvl-50 Knight Guardian to do some dailies. He emerged from hibernation inside the building right where I left him -- and then was mezzed and ganked by that same group of Imps, who had managed to work their way inside the base.

 

I put out the call in global chat that Imps had entered the base, and several Republic players responded, "Again?? They'll never learn..." and such. So, a group of Republic players mobilized and wiped them out.

 

A few minutes later, as I was gathering quests, my Knight was mezzed and ganked again.

 

Apparently, that same group had been wiped out repeatedly inside the base, but rather than retreating to a med center, had chosen to wait out their lengthening rez timers and respawn in place inside the building.

 

This is a problem. There is no way to for players to truly extricate a group of enemy player characters determined to stay inside a base, if they don't want to leave. They'll simply wait out their respawn timere and rez in place.

 

This, in my opinion, is where player griefing reaches the point where it can't be mitigated by player action. It also appears to be fully possible for players to exploit their period of pre-rez stealth and immunity to get into places they shouldn't be able to get into -- especially if they have the extended period of stealth/immunity that results from death in PvP.

 

PROPOSAL #1: Make Imp/Republic Territory (the bases) Off Limits For Player Rezzes

There are certain zones already in the game where self-rezzing and rezzes by another player are not allowed, such as the rad pool in Corellia's Black Hole District. Areas identified as Imperial or Republic territory should also be off limits for self-rezzes. It would seem logical that the only way to come back to life if you die there is to retreat to the nearest med center.

 

This mechanic should be applied to these bases, to reflect the fact that they are Enemy Territory. If the devs want to make them fair game for PvP-server worlds, then players should be able to force invaders out. This would eliminate the stealth-by-death exploit these players were apparently using to circumvent the base's defensive turrets and NPCs.

 

But still, I don't like the idea of quest hubs being "fair game" for open-world PvP. Players need SOME sort of a safe haven where they can group up and organize -- hopefully with exit points wide enough and numerous enough to keep the enemy from bottling people up inside. We don't need to see a repeat of the mistake of allowing enemies to lay siege to taxi landing zones. Quest hubs should be similarly off-limits. If that means adding a few defensive emplacements and scanning posts to the interiors of quest hubs, I'd say so be it.

 

PROPOSAL #2: Re-Incentivize Open-World PvP

While I still shiver at the memory of the massive Valor pharming that went on in this game's first week, with masses of Sorcerors standing around taxi landing points saturating the spot with constant barrages of AoEs, the current state of affairs for open-world PvP has swung to the opposite extreme. Now, it's so lacking in purpose that the vast majority of players can't even be bothered to fight.

 

Basically, the only people who bother with open-world PvP are the griefers. And that's not a healthy state of affairs for ANY game that wants to include open-world PvP. One of my guildies last night said it well: SWTOR's PvP servers have none of the upside perks of PvP servers, but all of the downside. You don't gain anything from OW-PvP, but you're constantly on guard against griefers and gankers.

 

And because most players see no point in OW-PvP, that has the perverse effect of freeing the field for the griefers and gankers. With less "action" in the field, boredom grows, and with it, the temptation to pull stunts like invading enemy bases using the afore-mentioned stealth-by-death exploit.

 

C'mon, people! Throw us a bone here! Give the PvPers something, BioWare. How about a few daily quests? "Kill XX number of on-level enemy players in the open world," or "Capture (semi-random) Point XYZ (marked by a small beacon tower that a player has to activate to denote his side controls it) and hold it for X minutes" (with a corresponding quest generated for the opposite faction) or "Escort NPC So-And-So from Point A to Point B" (with, again, corresponding missions to the opposite faction for a search-and-clobber mission to that general area). Maybe these things could be coordinated with a version of the Group Finder adapted for PvP matchmaking.

 

Hopefully, if players are given a sufficient array of OW-PvP dailies, it will give enough of the main mass of players an incentive to get them out of the current offering of PvE dailies and into the defense of their brethren/sister'n-in-arms again. Ideas like these would move them out and away from enemy bases. And hopefully they would be relatively easy for the devs to add -- similar in implementation difficulty to the Rakghoul World Event on Tatooine.

 

If so, I would suspect a huge return on the development investment.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Spectus

[Spectus]

No discussion?

[rymasta]

I fell that the game is lacking in world PvP. I love the game I really do and warzones are fun and everything but we need real world pvp. I would love to log on to my guilds website and see in the chat box that the imps took alderaan and we are planning on taking it back. This is my first MMO but its not my first video game and I think I speak for alot of people when I say that the game needs better Pvp. In my guild alone people are saying it should be more like Gw2 pvp. now Ive never played the GW games but they seem to like them and the PvP. I think that there should be objectives in the open world. I signed in to a pvp server expecting alot of pvp.

 

here what i would like to see ( these are just thought sand they may be flawed ) :

 

Either planetary takeovers or capitol city takeovers

 

in a planetary take over one faction would have to capture cities or capture points in that planet when you capture all of them the planet is yours.

Each capture point would be alike in that they would have med bays and speeder acess but you could only use them if your faction controled them.

then each side would have a capitol city where they would have multiple med bays and areas of defense like turrets or sniper points and the enemy would have to capture that to win.

In the event that a faction catures a planet the other faction could still get to it from a spaceport (The spaceport would not be in the capital city) That way they could launv=ch a counter strike.

The point behind this would be that players would get experience and legacy points for killing enemies and capturing posts. but I was thinking that the faction that controlled the most planets could get something like double xp or double legacy xp or a credit multiplyer while they controlled the most planets. and if they both controlled the same amount neither would get the bonus. also the bonus would be the same no matter how many planets one faction had as long as it was more then their enemy , that way the opposing faction would have a fighting chance.

 

idk these are my thoughts and some might say well if an enemy controls a planet then it would mess up their PvE but if that s the case those people should join a PvE server lol. anyway I wish there was more worl pvp i mean a huge part of MMO and Star wars are the massive battles so lets get some in the game. I'd like to hear what others think as well and if you have questions about my ideas just ask =)

[Spectus]

I fell that the game is lacking in world PvP. I love the game I really do and warzones are fun and everything but we need real world pvp. I would love to log on to my guilds website and see in the chat box that the imps took alderaan and we are planning on taking it back. This is my first MMO but its not my first video game and I think I speak for alot of people when I say that the game needs better Pvp. In my guild alone people are saying it should be more like Gw2 pvp. now Ive never played the GW games but they seem to like them and the PvP. I think that there should be objectives in the open world. I signed in to a pvp server expecting alot of pvp.

 

here what i would like to see ( these are just thought sand they may be flawed ) :

 

Either planetary takeovers or capitol city takeovers

 

in a planetary take over one faction would have to capture cities or capture points in that planet when you capture all of them the planet is yours.

Each capture point would be alike in that they would have med bays and speeder acess but you could only use them if your faction controled them.

then each side would have a capitol city where they would have multiple med bays and areas of defense like turrets or sniper points and the enemy would have to capture that to win.

In the event that a faction catures a planet the other faction could still get to it from a spaceport (The spaceport would not be in the capital city) That way they could launv=ch a counter strike.

The point behind this would be that players would get experience and legacy points for killing enemies and capturing posts. but I was thinking that the faction that controlled the most planets could get something like double xp or double legacy xp or a credit multiplyer while they controlled the most planets. and if they both controlled the same amount neither would get the bonus. also the bonus would be the same no matter how many planets one faction had as long as it was more then their enemy , that way the opposing faction would have a fighting chance.

 

idk these are my thoughts and some might say well if an enemy controls a planet then it would mess up their PvE but if that s the case those people should join a PvE server lol. anyway I wish there was more worl pvp i mean a huge part of MMO and Star wars are the massive battles so lets get some in the game. I'd like to hear what others think as well and if you have questions about my ideas just ask =)

As much as we all would love to see epic battles for control of planets, I don't think it would work in this game, for a couple of reasons.

 

1. The game engine clearly can't handle large numbers of player characters in one location. This is the reason the Ilum PvP zone failed so hard.

 

2. This game's worlds are built around Story-based questing. I think open-world PvP tends to destroy this game's primary gameplay mechanic, especially if situations arise in which opposing-faction players "take over" the opposing faction's quest hubs.

 

Until BioWare figures out how to make this game work with large numbers of player characters concentrated in small areas, it would be a VERY bad idea to formulate objectives in such a way that they encourage large-scale battles with open-ended participation, such as city takeovers. This, I think, would bring this game's servers to their knees.

 

My suggestions for objective-based PvP quests would get players out and dispersed into the general environment, hopefully involving themselves in smaller-scale battles like the ones we saw in the Rakghoul Plague event on Tatooine. Not epic in scale, and not a perfect solution; but something. And hopefully, it'd be fun. And even a simple set of daily quests, such as "kill XX number of on-level foes on (name of planet) would be a useful incentive to go to a planet and defend your comrades-in-arms from griefers and gank squads.

[Bogleswife]

:rak_04:HI I am part of the imp guild GALACTIC SITH EMPIRE that raids your base and I see you clearly fail to mention that we repeatedly asked you guys for Quinlynn who camps our heroic but runs from any actual player that attacks him. He retreated to your base so we followed. and We never waited out our timers if we were killed we simply rezzed at the medstation right outside and worked our way back in over and over. You can watch the actual raid on http://www.twitch.tv/raww251/b/324136829 We will continue to raid your bases and we will soon take over an entire planet.

[rymasta]

As much as we all would love to see epic battles for control of planets, I don't think it would work in this game, for a couple of reasons.

 

1. The game engine clearly can't handle large numbers of player characters in one location. This is the reason the Ilum PvP zone failed so hard.

 

2. This game's worlds are built around Story-based questing. I think open-world PvP tends to destroy this game's primary gameplay mechanic, especially if situations arise in which opposing-faction players "take over" the opposing faction's quest hubs.

 

Until BioWare figures out how to make this game work with large numbers of player characters concentrated in small areas, it would be a VERY bad idea to formulate objectives in such a way that they encourage large-scale battles with open-ended participation, such as city takeovers. This, I think, would bring this game's servers to their knees.

 

My suggestions for objective-based PvP quests would get players out and dispersed into the general environment, hopefully involving themselves in smaller-scale battles like the ones we saw in the Rakghoul Plague event on Tatooine. Not epic in scale, and not a perfect solution; but something. And hopefully, it'd be fun. And even a simple set of daily quests, such as "kill XX number of on-level foes on (name of planet) would be a useful incentive to go to a planet and defend your comrades-in-arms from griefers and gank squads.

 

I understand that the planets that are already there are based on questing but maybe adding more planets like Ilum that have objectives and can be taken over and the outcomes of these battle would have effects on the entire faction(Much like GW2 as a refrence) also idk if this is possible but could bioware fix the problem of not having too many players together ?

[Miggzy]

:rak_04:HI I am part of the imp guild GALACTIC SITH EMPIRE that raids your base and I see you clearly fail to mention that we repeatedly asked you guys for Quinlynn who camps our heroic but runs from any actual player that attacks him. He retreated to your base so we followed. and We never waited out our timers if we were killed we simply rezzed at the medstation right outside and worked our way back in over and over. You can watch the actual raid on http://www.twitch.tv/raww251/b/324136829 We will continue to raid your bases and we will soon take over an entire planet.

 

LOL I dont understand this one bit. I play on mostly PVE servers but I love to pvp and always make rounds through outlaaws den looking for a fight. I enjoy good fights, 1v1's that are close and for the most part balanced in gear and level are awesome fun. More fun even if I am a little bit outleveled and have to try really hard. But like the whole deal with your video is you guys laughing your heads off at killing one person with like 12 of you. What??? It gets much more interesting when more people show up and its a real fight though

Edited July 18, 2012 by Miggzy

[stardotdll]

Watch the whole video maybe. You will see after that first kill we get alot more action. Think of the first kill as killing the outpost guard in the watchtower or the scout.

[DarthDeimos]

@ OP: I sign for yes on proposal II

[WaterTrooper]

Watch the whole video maybe. You will see after that first kill we get alot more action. Think of the first kill as killing the outpost guard in the watchtower or the scout.

The only trouble we had is fighting the Champion LvL 50 NPCs. They are better then the Republic on PoF.

[rymasta]

I think that bioware needs to step up the pvp but like do posts like this even matter like are they gonna do something about it ?

[Spectus]

:rak_04:HI I am part of the imp guild GALACTIC SITH EMPIRE that raids your base and I see you clearly fail to mention that we repeatedly asked you guys for Quinlynn who camps our heroic but runs from any actual player that attacks him. He retreated to your base so we followed. and We never waited out our timers if we were killed we simply rezzed at the medstation right outside and worked our way back in over and over. You can watch the actual raid on http://www.twitch.tv/raww251/b/324136829 We will continue to raid your bases and we will soon take over an entire planet.

This isn't what was happening the night I was talking about in my original post. There was a foursome of Imps inside the base. I and several other Republic characters killed them off once, and a couple minutes later, as I was doing misc. stuff on my character, he was struck by a tranq dart and ganked by the same foursome, who HAD rezzed in the back corner of a side room.

 

it may have been a different night that you saw this Quinlynn fleeing into the base, because I didn't see any character by that name. And I don't recall offhand the guildname of the group that was doing it, so undoubtedly it was some other group of lowlife/exploiters. But whatever. If you want to try to roll Republic bases and brag that you will "soon" take over an entire planet -- well, give it your best shot. Hope you like being roflstomped. Assuming, of course, that Republic players can be bothered to fight you in the first place.

[Cindikle]

I like #1.

 

I'd personally say make it so that any PvP death removes the ability to self rez.

And I say it because of this:

:rak_04:HI I am part of the imp guild GALACTIC SITH EMPIRE that raids your base and I see you clearly fail to mention that we repeatedly asked you guys for Quinlynn who camps our heroic but runs from any actual player that attacks him. He retreated to your base so we followed. and We never waited out our timers if we were killed we simply rezzed at the medstation right outside and worked our way back in over and over. You can watch the actual raid on http://www.twitch.tv/raww251/b/324136829 We will continue to raid your bases and we will soon take over an entire planet.

 

I'm sure I know who he is talking about and it makes the heroic area far too much of a hassle to be worth doing.

He waits for a group to be in combat, he sends his companion to that group, then runs around. Since he is in combat with an enemy, every NPC he runs by automatically assists him. Turning into a fight vs 3-4 groups. You're average group wont last 2 groups let alone 3 or 4. This is pure greifing. This is not "PvP happens". He is not PvPing. He does not fight.

 

Things needed to be done to make world PvP come to life:

1) Limitations. Example being no attacking those 5 or so levels under you. Keep the world PvP to those near your level. Makes it feel much more epic. Exception maybe being a new flag that states the player as a PvP attacker, opening them up to being killed by anyone. Next one following what was said above. NPC's shouldn't chase in that way. If I get close, they should help. Otherwise it makes more sense that they would stay back and protect the guy. Not run off and leave him behind.

2) PvP Dailies. Non-Warzone ones. Mostly around going into the enemy daily area. Less going into questing areas. Or better yet, zone-wide objectives.

3) Zone-wide objectives. Something to add an epic feel to it. With #1 in play everyone should feel a place in the battle, instead of it being about who has more bored level 50's. Don't tell me the game can't handle many people in one place. It can for a while. Problem with Ilum was people would stand in the same area and do nothing slowly picking off the other team one by one till one side got the balls to push forward. That's what caused the problems.

4) Base assaulting. Currently it's overall impossible other than what the guy above says. Hiding in a hole. This could be tied to daily/zone-wide objectives. After so many done in a day, an assault is formed on said base. This could have good rewards to encourage people doing it.

 

In the current state of world PvP, all PvP servers should become PvE. Because 99% of what I see as world PvP is just griefing anyway.

[Spectus]

:rak_04:HI I am part of the imp guild GALACTIC SITH EMPIRE that raids your base and I see you clearly fail to mention that we repeatedly asked you guys for Quinlynn who camps our heroic but runs from any actual player that attacks him. He retreated to your base so we followed. and We never waited out our timers if we were killed we simply rezzed at the medstation right outside and worked our way back in over and over. You can watch the actual raid on http://www.twitch.tv/raww251/b/324136829 We will continue to raid your bases and we will soon take over an entire planet.

I know that name. I've never seen him myself, but I've seen Republic players discussing his actions in global chat.

 

So, I have a question for you, Bogle. Since you felt this guy's actions justify your invasion of the Republic Base Camp (fuzzy logic, but hey, PvP is PvP), I think I should ask you: do you feel similar annoyance over the IMPERIAL player or two who are were doing THE SAME THING in the Republic heroic area for a couple of weeks as of that weekend, and had been at it again all afternoon that day? (I can give you the offenders' names via PM, if you care.) Or is this Quinlynn's actions just another excuse to (try to) grief Republic players?

 

At any rate, if you were releasing back to the med bot under the Imp walker near the Base Camp, your group by definition wasn't the group I was referring to. That group was a foursome that had been roflstomped repeatedly inside the Republic Base Camp's building, and had repeatedly rezzed in place.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Spectus

[stardotdll]

I am the guy that started the invasion group but griefing quest areas is just not PvP. Invading a base that has champion guards and republics in my book does not count for griefing and from my video it was pretty back and forth. Sure the first guy got killed by 12 of us but does anyone really expect a fight to break out without that initial first kill.

The abuse of the rez timer must be dealt with but as for my group we rezzed under the walker. So I say raiding bases is fair game. Griefing heroics areas of either side is just plain lame. Quinlynn does it everyday all day and really enjoys it. We asked for his head and no one delivered. Also, GSE will conquer a whole planet

[CarloSpicyWener]

I am the guy that started the invasion group but griefing quest areas is just not PvP. Invading a base that has champion guards and republics in my book does not count for griefing and from my video it was pretty back and forth. Sure the first guy got killed by 12 of us but does anyone really expect a fight to break out without that initial first kill.

The abuse of the rez timer must be dealt with but as for my group we rezzed under the walker. So I say raiding bases is fair game. Griefing heroics areas of either side is just plain lame. Quinlynn does it everyday all day and really enjoys it. We asked for his head and no one delivered. Also, GSE will conquer a whole planet

 

And then again I remember the time where republic guilds would camp Voss ka for 5 hours straight not letting anyone take the taxi or the shuttle. I see lvl 50s camping outside outpost on planets they have no business being on. I mean, I've been on tatooine in the past couple days (to find datacrons) and came across a lot of lvl 25-30 pubs on their quest, i didn't even jump them. First it's not a challenge, second it's just being an ******e to kill someone for the sake of it while you are clearly the one who has no business being here.