Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[Achyllis]

This.

 

So many spoiled healers in this thread. Healers are fine. They are more then fine.

 

Walsh how many accounts do to have? Spoiled healers post 1.2?

 

Absurd.

[LancelotOC]

Fact is, the problem with healing is there is a huge skill cap involved which is why some can only heal for 200k a game and others hit 500k + consistently.

 

I don't know about this whole skill cap thing either. Its premise is somewhat self-serving and that's why I'm leary of it. It's like saying I heal for a lot so therefore I'm great and all else are mediocre. It's a weak argument because not all sorc/sages are the same.

 

I think the differences have to do with spec, with class mix, gear, and finally how far you are on the learing curve.

 

The first three are pretty obvious and self explanatory. True heal Sorcs with all heal gear unfocused have the potential to hit those 700-900k games on Voidstar or a Civil War where center never gets capped. Hybrids with heal gear unfocused can get to 400-500 in the same scenario where Hybrids in defensive gear do about 300k to 400k.

 

The same specs in less than optimal gear do less than their upper potential. The same with healers on a team that has more dps than the enemy team or on a team with great peelers or on a team with a great tank. All these things effect your totals versus the other healers.

 

Take the same specs and now focus them, your better Heal specced heals un gaurded do about 300k and this is mostly self heals.. your hybrids also do about 300k. Difference between the two is by the end the heal specced one has 8-10 deaths and the heal hybrid has about 5-6 and your defense hybrid about 3-4 if all well played.

 

This previous thing is the jist of it. That heal specced healer will be reduced to self healing and getting his clock cleaned when unguarded and focused. The hybrids survive, focused or unfocused it mostly the same.

 

The learning curve is mostly recognising enemy classes and knowing when to use your snare, knockback, stun, sprint and casted mezz. It's situational awareness, breaking LOS, and positioning on the 4 maps. The healing part is pretty straightforward. I think if you play each warzone 20 times, even if you a slow learner, you get all this.

 

If anything what's aparent, past that DPS are spoiled for realz, is that they do have a point that too many healers makes it too boring. On the spectrum of healing/dps though, as I think it needs to be said, those games where no one on your side dies are the ultimate triumphs. It's what you strive for as a healer just like DPS stive for very high kills counts. Let's be honest unless you have a ton of healers most time this spectrum lights up on the DPS's side.

 

Just like DPS want to kill we want no one to die. We extend the olive branch that we understand they want to kill, crush, destroy, but you hardly ever see DPS extend it back that we can enjoy deathless WZs. Selfish for realz.

 

Tomfoolery aside, the example of the three healers was 2 OPS and a Sorc. This is a very powerful mix. If the same three where 3 Sorc healers they would get owned because the strong heals are long cast times, people have max hitpoints, and 3 DPS focusing would bring one of them to point where the other 2 casting would cast on someone with no hitpoints or run out of mana.

 

We can't be designed to be the kickers on the football team. We're only great when they need a kick and the rest of the time we are on the bench, or in this case the respawn area. I've seen all these football movies and I've never seen the kicker walk away with the pretty girl at the end of the movie. If this wall of text hasn't swayed your opinion at all think of the damage our imaginary e-rep is taking playing full heal spec with all the non-existant MMO ladies.

 

All said and done I dont think there is a way to balance it one way or the other without one side being unhappy. Even the slightest buff could very easily throw the game in disarray. So how about some 10 sec invunerability nodes in the WZs? We are the fastest runners, we would be the ones grabbing them the most. It would be open to all though so it wouldnt be a healer thing. Then again DPS sorc/sages would grab them and be like Marauders with UD....killing people with 4 wailing on them. Maybe that's a good thing too, kill 2 birds with one patch.

 

The too many healers in one WZ thing I can't think of any fair way to fix though. Widen the maps maybe so they can't be everywhere. If the distances between nodes currently allows many healers to support each other then put up more voidstar fences. I'd rather nodes flip because fewer can be defended with too many healers than being the gimp when too few healers are present. As that would effect everyone.. currently only we take the kick to the teeth.

Edited July 10, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Dmasterr]

http://i49.tinypic.com/e0n8de.jpg

 

/thread

[Theagg]

I play a full heal speced sorc in rated. 1290 rating. Heal about 400k a match and die 3 or 4 times unless the match is a facerole, then I die more and heal less. 13 wins, 6 loses. Pick up teams exclusively, although they are well built (2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps and none of the stupid worthless classes that shouldn't even be allowed to que for ranked).

 

I would rate the power of this toon somewhere between "OMG OP" and "just flat out ruining PVP for everyone else by being so broken."

 

Have you honestly considered the fact that maybe, just maybe, there is some personal improvement on your part that might change your opinion? I mean everyone who FIGHTS healers thinks they are crazy OP. Most people who PLAY healers are honestly enough to admit they are crazy OP. You insist they are not only far from OP, but horrible and worthless. MAYBE the problem is you? Just saying!

 

Gear, for the record, is unaugmented battle master with a few pieces of unagumented war hero. I can't even imagine how retarded OP I will be in full augmented WH.

 

Yep, pretty much spot on from my experience. Five players needed to take out a Merc Healer and his tank hassling a node through 3 respawns of the Rep players, with every interrupt, stun and mez being thrown in to boot suggests the balance isn't quite right when healers in the hands of any decent player get into certain combos.

[BurnsTwoThree]

http://i49.tinypic.com/e0n8de.jpg

 

/thread

 

Let's see his spec. He's not a healer he's a DPS who uses off heals.

 

 

/thread

Edited July 10, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Dmasterr]

Let's see his spec. He's not a healer he's a DPS who uses off heals.

 

 

/thread

 

No, he is a full corruption healer, who plays in a 2healer team. Server is TOFN, feel free to make a lvl 1 and /wisp him.

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/260wnef.jpg

 

Or you care to make more excuses ? I remember someone saying its an imposibility due to game mechanics to get high rated as a full healer blah blah blah.

 

He plays with same mechanics as you. And there are others, he is just one of us, highest rated players on the server; and since the server is TOFN, -> Europe.

 

/thread

 

P.S. What makes players who have terrible rating(or no rating at all), think their opinion regarding game balance is relevant?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[BurnsTwoThree]

 

Or you care to make more excuses ? I remember someone saying its an imposibility due to game mechanics to get high rated as a full healer blah blah blah.

 

Let's see his spec or a video of him actually doing this with said spec.

 

/thread

 

Let's also add in the fact he probably has to be life partners with a tank to even be able to do half of the things he does. No healer should ever rely on some PvE mechanic to stay alive. I'm talking about being a good healer without needing some dumb mechanic such as guard which i highly doubt he is.

[Darth_Philar]

No, he is a full corruption healer, who plays in a 2healer team. Server is TOFN, feel free to make a lvl 1 and /wisp him.

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/260wnef.jpg

 

Or you care to make more excuses ? I remember someone saying its an imposibility due to game mechanics to get high rated as a full healer blah blah blah.

 

He plays with same mechanics as you. And there are others, he is just one of us, highest rated players on the server; and since the server is TOFN, -> Europe.

 

/thread

 

P.S. What makes players who have terrible rating(or no rating at all), think their opinion regarding game balance is relevant?

 

A Sorc/Sage getting a high rating in this game as a healer is like a Hunter getting a high rating in WoW. It can be done, but it requires exceptional skill from the player and a team customized to keeping the healer alive. Without comparative data, a single highly rated Sorc proves nothing, as does a single lowly rated Sorc. Stop cherry-picking and strawmanning the debate.

[Dmasterr]

Oh god, are you ppl serious?

 

We have a channel with all high rated players, and we make "pug" teams with players in that channel often and fight vs each other, have guild "rivalries" etc. ; So its not like he is relying on 1 team, 1 setup, same 7 team mates, q dodging everyone and farming low teams.

 

All it takes is a team made up of competent people.

 

And healers shouldn't rely on tanks ? are you freaking kidding me? "we" play the game as designed... if you are unable too, i am sorry but its not the game's fault.

 

If you are to powerfull when you solo heal, ... what are you when you play with competent players, and competent tank? GODLIKE? SERIOUSLY.

 

Forum should show highest rating of everyone posting, right next to their name. Would save us the trouble of making lvl 1 chars on your server and inspecting your rating in /who.

 

The excuses never stop coming are they?

[Darth_Philar]

Forum should show highest rating of everyone posting, right next to their name. Would save us the trouble of making lvl 1 chars on your server and inspecting your rating in /who.

 

The excuses never stop coming are they?

 

You want the rating so that you can rely even more heavily on the appeal to authority logical fallacy?

 

We want a legitimate debate on whether some healers need to be fixed, not an illogical discussion of whose pixels give them the most undeserved sense of accomplishment.

 

As for the requirement of tanks to heal, I like the synergy concept, but it needs to be evenly applied. All DPS classes should lose their DCDs while in a WZ making them dependent upon the healer to play. Some kind of similar strategy should be implemented for DPS>Tanks as well. You can't require only one role to be dependent upon another role without making that role severely UP.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[BurnsTwoThree]

All it takes is a team made up of competent people.

 

And healers shouldn't rely on tanks ? are you freaking kidding me? "we" play the game as designed... if you are unable too, i am sorry but its not the game's fault.

 

Do you know why there's about 5 servers for each continent that are actually full?

 

It sure as hell isn't for fun PvP that allows at least 90% of classes to participate and excel in.

Nobody with half a brain wants to rely on awful mechanics where healers need a tank around them to boost their survivability.

 

Get rid of guard for PvP. If they want to give tanks the ability to help players out that's fine. Forcing players to use guard? Such a lame and poorly thought out mechanic.

 

No one said anything about not being able to play a game with poorly designed mechanics, it's more along the lines of refusing to since healing isn't fun in a game where you have to rely on someone else for you to play your full potential rather than playing your full potential on your own.

Edited July 10, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[AdamLKvist]

Oh god, are you ppl serious?

 

We have a channel with all high rated players, and we make "pug" teams with players in that channel often and fight vs each other, have guild "rivalries" etc. ; So its not like he is relying on 1 team, 1 setup, same 7 team mates, q dodging everyone and farming low teams.

 

All it takes is a team made up of competent people.

 

And healers shouldn't rely on tanks ? are you freaking kidding me? "we" play the game as designed... if you are unable too, i am sorry but its not the game's fault.

 

If you are to powerfull when you solo heal, ... what are you when you play with competent players, and competent tank? GODLIKE? SERIOUSLY.

 

Forum should show highest rating of everyone posting, right next to their name. Would save us the trouble of making lvl 1 chars on your server and inspecting your rating in /who.

 

The excuses never stop coming are they?

 

The simple fact is that your example holds no meaning since your guild by far outgears close to everyone on the server atm (wellfare PvP'ers not suffering from transfer issues) . It doesnt matter if you could or couldnt do it vs competent, same geared players - all that matters is that at the moment you haven't and aren't.

[Dmasterr]

You want the rating so that you can rely even more heavily on the appeal to authority logical fallacy?

.

 

What appeal to authority? do you even know what it means? Your rating is determined by your ability to understand game mechanics, and ability to play the game, NOT a 3rd party.

It sure as hell isn't for the fun PvP that allows at least 90% of classes to participate and excel in.

 

You should "replace" classes with "players" . And i am sorry the game is not fun for "90%" of the players. But regardless the changes the game will go through, those 10% (heck even less, i would say top 1%) , those, 1% top players, would still be better than the other 99%.

 

Players quality of live will never improve as long as they do not learn to play the game properly; Regardless what the game mechanics are or will be.

 

Read a game guide, watch some videos. make friends with good players on your server and ask to play with them, so you can learn. There is no magical change that Bioware can do, to improve your game performance, as long as you do not learn and improve, you will still have the same spot in the pvp ladder .

Edited July 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[upzie]

The simple fact is that your example holds no meaning since your guild by far outgears close to everyone on the server atm (wellfare PvP'ers not suffering from transfer issues) . It doesnt matter if you could or couldnt do it vs competent, same geared players - all that matters is that at the moment you haven't and aren't.

 

I think some of the other great teams/players would disagree with you

[Darth_Philar]

What appeal to authority? do you even know what it means? Your rating is determined by your ability to understand game mechanics, and ability to play the game, NOT a 3rd party.

 

 

You should "replace" classes with "players" . And i am sorry the game is not fun for "90%" of the players. But regardless the changes the game will go through, those 10% (heck even less, i would say top 1%) , those, 1% top players, would still be better than the other 99%.

 

Players quality of live will never improve as long as they do not learn to play the game properly; Regardless what the game mechanics are or will be.

 

Read a game guide, watch some videos. make friends with good players on your server and ask to play with them, so you can learn. There is no magical change that Bioware can do, to improve your game performance, as long as you do not learn and improve, you will still have the same spot in the pvp ladder .

 

Your rating means that you have the correct team composition. Nothing more.

Rating =/= Skill or experience, it simply means your team wins more often and in a game based on statistics a win simply means superior statistics. It is impossible to actually provide a numerical value for "player skill", so companies like Blizzard and Bioware come up with numbers that reflect what they can track, which have no actual bearing on skill level.

 

Even if the rating DID accurately reflect skill levels, it would still be an appeal to authority logical fallacy in that you are relying upon those numbers to reject the arguments of others not on their merits but on the rating value.

This is debate 101.

[AdamLKvist]

I think some of the other great teams/players would disagree with you

 

There aren't many full WH teamspeak premades atm. (Guilds that always play with the exact same members)

Edited July 10, 2012 by AdamLKvist

[Dmasterr]

Your rating means that you have the correct team composition. Nothing more.

.

You mean 1 tank, 1 offtank 2 healers 4 dps? Class is more or less irrelevant, and i say this because you need to adjust the game strategy according to what classes you have.

 

There are high rated teams with 1 sorc heal, and 2 sorc dps in them. Teams with concealment operatives. etc etc. Good players do not exclude people based on class, but rather on player skill.

 

The teams/guilds/ etc. that exclude people based on class are average at best, and irrelevant.

 

Even if the rating DID accurately reflect skill levels, it would still be an appeal to authority logical fallacy in that you are relying upon those numbers to reject the arguments of others not on their merits but on the rating value.

This is debate 101.

 

I don't need numbers to reject other players arguments. They fail on their own. The number just shows why he has those arguments, and if he/she can or can not be reasoned with.

 

I mean cmon, look at this thread, after xx pages, the conclusion "they" came up with, is to eliminate tanks in pvp.Seriously? You want to eliminate an entire role in pvp, so you can feel a little better?

 

You do realize that if tanks are "removed" from pvp, All healers would be severely nerfed to compensate, right? to prevent the "new" pvp tanks, from being stacked in teams.

 

 

The number shows, if he is capable to understand game mechanics, and what impact would his requests have on the game. And why stop there? if tanks are removed from pvp, healers should be removed too... see where this is going?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Dmasterr]

There aren't many full WH teamspeak premades atm. (Guilds that always play with the exact same members)

 

Maybe not on your server. On TOFN there are several pvp guilds that are good, and have enough fully geared players to support 2 pvp teams each.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[AdamLKvist]

Maybe not on your server. On TOFN there are several pvp guilds that are good, and have enough fully geared players to support 2 pvp teams each.

 

I'm on TOFN.

[Dmasterr]

I'm on TOFN.

 

So, guilds like : republic : Sphinx, testarrosa,

empire : Warmonger, impulse, impetus, dafuc

 

Sorry if i forgot some guilds.

 

You decided they don't exist?

 

I will step out of this thread, and try to keep my forum posting to a minimum, since there is no reasoning with players who can not understand game mechanics and pvp.

[Darth_Philar]

You mean 1 tank, 1 offtank 2 healers 4 dps? Class is more or less irrelevant, and i say this because you need to adjust the game strategy according to what classes you have.

 

There are high rated teams with 1 sorc heal, and 2 sorc dps in them. Teams with concealment operatives. etc etc. Good players do not exclude people based on class, but rather on player skill.

 

The teams/guilds/ etc. that exclude people based on class are average at best, and irrelevant.

I don't need numbers to reject other players arguments. They fail on their own. The number just shows why he has those arguments, and if he/she can or can not be reasoned with.

 

I mean cmon, look at this thread, after xx pages, the conclusion "they" came up with, is to eliminate tanks in pvp.Seriously? You want to eliminate an entire role in pvp, so you can feel a little better?

 

You do realize that if tanks are "removed" from pvp, All healers would be severely nerfed to compensate, right? to prevent the "new" pvp tanks, from being stacked in teams.

 

 

The number shows, if he is capable to understand game mechanics, and what impact would his requests have on the game. And why stop there? if tanks are removed from pvp, healers should be removed too... see where this is going?

 

We unfortunately don't have access to the rating data in full yet for analysis, but when we do you will see the same problem that plagues WoW will plague SWTOR. Class>Team>Gear>Skill. Certain classes will have much higher ratings than others and certain compositions will have much higher ratings than the others. That isn't to say that there won't be competition, it's just that all of the high rating seekers will discover what the best mathematical class and composition is and will run that giving them a mathematical advantage over other classes/compositions.

 

It is an unfortunate side effect of trying to blend PvP with RPG (they are by definition opposites in that PvP is about maximizing the player's influence in the outcome and RPG is about minimizing the player's influence and maximizing the character's influence in the outcome).

 

I personally advocate for a reversion of the mechanic changes (keeping the change to Consuption) that Sorc/Sage healers were hit with and then actually fixing the bug that lead to the mechanic change. Sorc/Sages don't have a problem with healing output, they have a problem with mobility, which can only be partially countered by their team.

[AdamLKvist]

So, guilds like : republic : Sphinx, testarrosa,

empire : Warmonger, impulse, impetus, dafuc

 

Sorry if i forgot some guilds.

 

You decided they don't exist?

 

I will step out of this thread, and try to keep my forum posting to a minimum, since there is no reasoning with players who can not understand game mechanics and pvp.

 

Arent you in warmonger? Then remove it from the list.

 

Impulse? Lol.

 

Rest is correct, which is why I said "close to all" had you read my OP.

[Dmasterr]

We unfortunately don't have access to the rating data in full yet for analysis, but when we do you will see the same problem that plagues WoW will plague SWTOR. Class>Team>Gear>Skill. .

 

That plague in WoW was mostly due to how diminishing returns system worked.

 

Here? with resolve being a binary system, and easy to "cap".I disagree with the above.

 

Gear is irrelevant, to game balance. and the rest is Skill >=Team>class.

[Moonglum]

I dunno ... I have a 50 Sorc in full BM gear with just under 1100 Expertise and I regularly do 340K - 350K healing. I also have a 42 Merc healer (valor 42 as well, wearing level 40 PvP gear) and I thoroughly enjoy healing WZs.

 

With my Merc, for example, in WZs I just run into the thickest fighting and keep dropping Kolto Missile every 6 seconds close enough that I'm in the AoE. While that alone isn't enough to keep me alive, rotating a few other of my bigger heals/shields between myself and any allies in range that need healing is usually more than enough. Toss a Guard on me and the Merc Healer has serious staying power.

 

I usually end up dying only 2 or 3 times a game (especially in the "turret" WZs and Voidstar), and it will normally take 3 enemy players to focus fire me down to ashes.

 

That said, I'm a career healer -- been healing in every MMO I've ever played. Don't know if it's because I've become accustomed the healer mentality or what -- but I love healing in SW-TOR.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Moonglum

[BurnsTwoThree]

Skill < Spec < Team < class

 

Fixed for accuracy.