clearsighted Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Terribly unbalanced, imo. It would make Power Shot totally pointless to a Mercenary, and give them insane mobility at virtually no cost. All Mercs need is a bit more escape/root/snare ability so they can kite a bit more effectively than they currently do. Holy ****, they would be just like powertechs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearsighted Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Put a decent marauder against a terribad merc and merc dies in under 10 seconds and move on. Put a decent marauder against me and it's about 3/4 that the marauder dies after a drawn out painful fight. Meh. I maybe 1/4th of the time, or else your definition of 'decent' is pretty low. I consider myself an above average player. I have a merc. that I do pretty well on. I still do not think it would be possible for me to lose to a mercenary or commando, regardless of what other class I was playing. Not unless I had a stroke, mid-fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Meh. I maybe 1/4th of the time, or else your definition of 'decent' is pretty low. I consider myself an above average player. I have a merc. that I do pretty well on. I still do not think it would be possible for me to lose to a mercenary or commando, regardless of what other class I was playing. Not unless I had a stroke, mid-fight. Its hard for me to say because I don't generally lose 1vs1's no matter what I play. When I play my merc though, I beat sents/marauders all the time. I guess the hundreds of matches I've played there just hasn't been any "decent" marauders. Maybe some day I will meet one and think the entire class is completely broken because they beat me in a fight. To take a notch off my arrogance though, the one class I do I guess have a lot of trouble with is sabo slingers. Mostly because by the time I notice they're attacking me they've already bursted through half my health with contingency charges and then I have to try to find them while slowed in their incindiary. But, if I get the drop on them before they attack me that's always a win for me for the same reason (by the time they notice me I've got them at half health). The real "problem", if you can call it that, with mercs is that the playstyle is not for everyone. You're trading raw DPS and survivability for range and utility. That's not a combination that everyone can make work. The solution is not to fundamentally change the class, the solution is for those people to find a class that fits them better. If you want to be nothing but a DPS/grapple machine roll a powertech. If you want to be a tank, roll a powertech or something else that tanks. If you want to be a team utility pure DPS, roll a marauder. If you hate offspec healing and you hate cleansing and you can't be bothered with maintaining range then a mercenary is just a bad choice for you, as a player. Edited July 12, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 15%? You're on crack. It's rare I don't top damage but if I don't top damage and it's to a PT it's maybe 3% difference. It's called range, merc has it, PT does not - grapple is only usable once every 45 seconds and wasting it on a 1vs1 in huttball would be silly. If you'd trade power shot @ 30m for flame burst @ 10m you're playing the wrong class. Easily 15% and after you add in protection, it's a 25% differential in total productivity. Yes, I too almost always top damage numbers on my Merc Pyro. But I don't fool myself into thinking it's because my subclass is adequate. It isn't. The fact that you actually use Powershot tells me a lot about why you have difficulty understanding this. I'll simply say that in the multiple matches where I've scored over 750k damage while using a Merc Pyro, I might have used Powershot once. COMBINED across all those matches. Compare that to a PT who is going to use FlameBurst 50-80 times in a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) Easily 15% and after you add in protection, it's a 25% differential in total productivity. Yes, I too almost always top damage numbers on my Merc Pyro. But I don't fool myself into thinking it's because my subclass is adequate. It isn't. The fact that you actually use Powershot tells me a lot about why you have difficulty understanding this. I'll simply say that in the multiple matches where I've scored over 750k damage while using a Merc Pyro, I might have used Powershot once. COMBINED across all those matches. Compare that to a PT who is going to use FlameBurst 50-80 times in a match. Clearly your 750k Merc is broken horribly. PLEASE MAKE THIS CLASS VIABLE. I don't use power shot often but I do use it, not sure why you wouldn't if you're not getting any DD on you. Edited July 14, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearsighted Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) Its hard for me to say because I don't generally lose 1vs1's no matter what I play. When I play my merc though, I beat sents/marauders all the time. I guess the hundreds of matches I've played there just hasn't been any "decent" marauders. Maybe some day I will meet one and think the entire class is completely broken because they beat me in a fight. To take a notch off my arrogance though, the one class I do I guess have a lot of trouble with is sabo slingers. Mostly because by the time I notice they're attacking me they've already bursted through half my health with contingency charges and then I have to try to find them while slowed in their incindiary. But, if I get the drop on them before they attack me that's always a win for me for the same reason (by the time they notice me I've got them at half health). The real "problem", if you can call it that, with mercs is that the playstyle is not for everyone. You're trading raw DPS and survivability for range and utility. That's not a combination that everyone can make work. The solution is not to fundamentally change the class, the solution is for those people to find a class that fits them better. If you want to be nothing but a DPS/grapple machine roll a powertech. If you want to be a tank, roll a powertech or something else that tanks. If you want to be a team utility pure DPS, roll a marauder. If you hate offspec healing and you hate cleansing and you can't be bothered with maintaining range then a mercenary is just a bad choice for you, as a player. Believe me. I get it. You tracer missile a lot of bads in your unranked matches. I kill tons of people in unranked too. And yes, sometimes matches are so chaotic that if you juke and jive to survive long enough, you'll get lucky and a few of your teammates will kill your attacker (provided he doesn't just pop guarded by the force). You may even tell yourself it was all you, if your last hit is the killing blow. Where merc falls of a cliff, is when you come across someone equally geared and equally skilled, playing ANY other class. Trust me. I'm a healing, cleansing, CCing, range-maintaing motherfocker. I don't think anyone can play merc better than I do. And I'm absolutely positive that anyone, of roughly comparable skil who has put an equal time into their own classl, can cream me in a 1v1. Likewise, If I were in recruit gear, I do not think any merc or commando in War Hero would have a chance against me, as a mara or a pyro. I'd bet real money on it. Snipers get better range, better utility, and better damage, all the while being given the tools to function at range (such as cover). Mercs get none of that. The developers have said that to compensate, mercs get heavy armor and off-heals. Well, both heavy armor and off-heals is crap. Trying to heal during a fight will get you killed (unless you can pop a HoT like an op), and heavy armor is mostly a joke. It used to be, our 10% extra damage reduction and 15 second knockbacks gave us a bit more survivability to make up for it. But devs decided to f/ck us in the *** and halved those protective talents. Anyways, 'maintaining range' is such a worthless comment anyways, when three out of four warzones focus around channelling everyone into killboxes, and all but one of the melee classes in the game can either pull you to them or jump to you. Edited July 14, 2012 by clearsighted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) Clearly your 750k Merc is broken horribly... I don't use power shot often but I do use it, not sure why you wouldn't if you're not getting any DD on you. Yes, my 750k Merc is broken horribly. The 750k happened in full WH gear (limited augments as it was in 1.2) with Rakata stims and WZ adrenals being used. Meanwhile my Marauder put up 520k and 80k heals in my third match with him (I never did sub 50 pvp with him), in full Recruit gear in a match where I entered after 2 minutes had already expired. Well, OK the Marauder actually had two pieces of BM (non-augmented), but both were armor items - both weapons were raw Recruit sabers. And the Marauder used NO stims, NO adrenals. Now perhaps you can begin to understand the magnitude of class imbalance when player skill is held constant. Just like BW, you are mesmerized by the raw numbers top Merc dps put up. And because so few players use Merc dps, the meta average numbers for the subclass are dominated by the top players. Which makes it appear as if nothing is wrong with the subclass. But once you control for player skill, it immediately becomes obvious that Merc dps SUCKS. The 750k a Merc dps can put up in a semi-static Voidstar would be about 900k combined damage/protection on a PT and well over 1 million damage/healing on a Sorc dps. This is what top players are doing. Edited July 14, 2012 by Macroecon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Assassin Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) Trust me. I'm a healing, cleansing, CCing, range-maintaing motherfocker. I don't think anyone can play merc better than I do. And I'm absolutely positive that anyone, of roughly comparable skil who has put an equal time into their own classl, can cream me in a 1v1. Likewise, If I were in recruit gear, I do not think any merc or commando in War Hero would have a chance against me, as a mara or a pyro. I'd bet real money on it. bold statement that there is really no way to back up. since you want to go there, i'm better than you...and i have no doubt in my mind. just the body of your post makes me believe that. i win 1v1 90% of the time. a well played marauder or jugg are the ONLY classes that give me any issues...and if i have all my CD's....i'd put my money on me. again, it's all about burst. PvP is kill or be killed, in a GROUP situation...eff 1v1. on my 47 VG, i was in an ald vs a premade...guilds called KoD and Anguish. i literally ran into the MIDDLE of about 5-6, killed the healer, then died. i then killed 3 BH's, without dieing...(then they 4 man'd me and got me ) i had enough burst to kill someone while being attacked by 5 people!!! (EDIT: i forgot...the healer was guarded) Merc CANNOT do that...that is the difference. and i can back up my claims. or you can come watch or play with me anytime... Merc is very survivable, and pretty bad *** in 1v1... SWTOR PvP is not 1v1...it's about teamwork. and a PT/VG can throw a HUGE wrench into any team, burst potential alone...killing healers is way too easy. kill the healer, and the rest is inevitable. point is, merc can be played very well, and actually contibute...but why bring one when you can bring a PT/VG that can taunt, do BETTER burst, grapple, AOE stun, and can litterally kill ANYTHING before they die? competetive players won't...and according to the numbers, they are not... Edited July 14, 2012 by T-Assassin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifrit Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Flameburst isn't appropriate for Mercs. Powershot being instant with the same or lower heat cost, same dmg/rail shot proc % would make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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