Does anyone do Tactics or Shield anymore? (PvP)

[TheMB]

Just wondering about this. With the huge influx of Vanguards/ Powertechs going assault/pyrotech in pvp do the other trees for the Vanguard/Powertech do not seem that interesting for people to play? Or just lack power? Or something completely else?

 

Idk I play a Tactics Vanguard and I find the utility of this tree very useful in most of the Warzones, especially Huttball. I'm just wondering about others people thoughts on the different trees for this AC.

[physiology]

With the death of the iron fist build, shield is not seen much anymore in pvp. I play tactics and although it is an effective spec, assault just has so much more burst and is easier to play. Right now it's cried about as being OP which is why you see a lot of people rolling it atm

[Seyahat]

I was iron fist and moved to straight shield. My burst and solo capabilities are down, but I think my group utility has been marginally raised. Huttball isn't as much fun, but I am still a terror on the others.

[DakoHawk]

Anyone else see a lot of assault/shield hybrids , people stormin around and dottin people up. Don't see em as much as i do straight assault but its defiantly noticeable.

[yioyo]

Main and first character is vanguard shield spec i can usually get top protection and do decent (tank) damage about 150k , but i don't really care about the numbers i like the way i can play the class it has a good feel to it

[Philosomanic]

I'm a Shield Spec PvP tank, and proud of it.

 

I duo with a really good Scoundrel healer in my guild a lot, and the two of us working together can take a crazy beating. I've had three DPS (two of them were BM+ judging by health totals, one was a bad tanksin) and a healer beat on us for like a minute straight before backup arrived without them managing to kill us. There's nothing like holding off half of the enemy team with only a quarter of your team to convince you that the spec is worth it.

 

Even without my pocket heals, I feel like I contribute a lot to my team. If the healer is willing to work with me, I'll guard them. However, in a PUG I focus on taunts, CC, positioning, and AoE pressure damage. I root and stun people all over the place, and do a lot of constant pressure. My single-target damage isn't all that great, but I can do enough AoE to nullify the output of a single enemy healer. That means that the enemy healer is doing nothing but cancel out most of my damage, but I still get lots of taunts/CC/debuffs off.

[kjfett]

I'm a Shield Spec PvP tank, and proud of it.

 

I duo with a really good Scoundrel healer in my guild a lot, and the two of us working together can take a crazy beating. I've had three DPS (two of them were BM+ judging by health totals, one was a bad tanksin) and a healer beat on us for like a minute straight before backup arrived without them managing to kill us. There's nothing like holding off half of the enemy team with only a quarter of your team to convince you that the spec is worth it.

 

Even without my pocket heals, I feel like I contribute a lot to my team. If the healer is willing to work with me, I'll guard them. However, in a PUG I focus on taunts, CC, positioning, and AoE pressure damage. I root and stun people all over the place, and do a lot of constant pressure. My single-target damage isn't all that great, but I can do enough AoE to nullify the output of a single enemy healer. That means that the enemy healer is doing nothing but cancel out most of my damage, but I still get lots of taunts/CC/debuffs off.

 

Yeah, but a a good DPS with that same healer would have burned them all down, not just delayed them till backup arrived. in fact, you hogging a healer rather than them keeping DPS up and running is actually a hindrance to the team in that you aren't producing damage and not adding utility as DPS classes have the CCs, Mezs, etc. as well and better in some cases. The only thing you give is guard; nice, but worth dedicating a healer to you and not the rest of the team? Not worth it in an 8 man team.

 

As a vanguard assault spec in PVP, you can do all the same taunts, CCs and do enough damage to actually kill the healer, not just negate their healing by using AoE attacks....which VG Assault can also do.

 

VG isn't OP as some like to QQ about on the PVP forums. It's a glass cannon that suffers very badly when stunned or CCed and it's no better at damage than other DPS classes. The problem is that shields has nothing to bring to the table that isn't already there. Shields needs to be fixed is the issue and that is why many go Assault. Not because it's OP, but because it's the spec that bring a use to the PVP table just like the rest of the DPS classes.

Edited July 2, 2012 by kjfett

[Philosomanic]

Yeah, but a a good DPS with that same healer would have burned them all down, not just delayed them till backup arrived. in fact, you hogging a healer rather than them keeping DPS up and running is actually a hindrance to the team in that you aren't producing damage and not adding utility as DPS classes have the CCs, Mezs, etc. as well and better in some cases. The only thing you give is guard; nice, but worth dedicating a healer to you and not the rest of the team? Not worth it in an 8 man team.

 

I'd actually like to argue that. Tactics could apply better pressure than me with their epic Pulse Cannon, but a Shield Vanguard can actually apply more AoE pressure by quite a bit than Assault. I'd count myself as barely behind Tactics in AoE; my lower DPS is made up for by my higher downtime. Also, it comes down to a matter of playstyle. Even when unsupported, I still place a primary focus on control, debuffs, and taunts before I worry about DPS. Most DPS players focus on DPS first.

 

However, it's incredibly rare for me to be unsupported. Almost all healers recognize the value of a good tank, and they're willing to work with me. With a decent healer, I guard the healer and keep them alive. With a good healer, I guard the lowest-health player and the healer keeps us both alive.

 

Whenever someone attacks a target I'm protecting, they do roughly 46% less damage overall. The original target takes roughly 31% of the damage they would have, and I absorb an additional 22%. That means that the healer has basically half the healing to do, and it's far harder to burst down a target that they're healing. That's ignoring a lot of factors. If the attacker is a juggernaut/marauder/sniper, drop that damage by another 10% (even more if I have Smoke Grenade up). I'm also pulling and rooting and stunning throughout this whole fight, and just generally making it miserable for you to attack my team. (Math)

 

If you honestly think that having a tank is hurting your team, go to the healer forums and ask them. I can almost gaurantee that they'll tell you that tanks make their heals far more effective. You can't have more than two tanks on a good team (because after that you're cutting DPS to minimal benefit), but us PvP tanks do have our place.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Philosomanic

[huehuebrbr]

we we're already behind the curve, but with other classes getting buffed and changes to equipment (and scaling), i think we should all support this topic:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4779305

[kjfett]

I'd actually like to argue that. Tactics could apply better pressure than me with their epic Pulse Cannon, but a Shield Vanguard can actually apply more AoE pressure by quite a bit than Assault. I'd count myself as barely behind Tactics in AoE; my lower DPS is made up for by my higher downtime. Also, it comes down to a matter of playstyle. Even when unsupported, I still place a primary focus on control, debuffs, and taunts before I worry about DPS. Most DPS players focus on DPS first.

 

However, it's incredibly rare for me to be unsupported. Almost all healers recognize the value of a good tank, and they're willing to work with me. With a decent healer, I guard the healer and keep them alive. With a good healer, I guard the lowest-health player and the healer keeps us both alive.

 

Whenever someone attacks a target I'm protecting, they do roughly 46% less damage overall. The original target takes roughly 31% of the damage they would have, and I absorb an additional 22%. That means that the healer has basically half the healing to do, and it's far harder to burst down a target that they're healing. That's ignoring a lot of factors. If the attacker is a juggernaut/marauder/sniper, drop that damage by another 10% (even more if I have Smoke Grenade up). I'm also pulling and rooting and stunning throughout this whole fight, and just generally making it miserable for you to attack my team. (Math)

 

If you honestly think that having a tank is hurting your team, go to the healer forums and ask them. I can almost gaurantee that they'll tell you that tanks make their heals far more effective. You can't have more than two tanks on a good team (because after that you're cutting DPS to minimal benefit), but us PvP tanks do have our place.

 

If you are doing all of that regularly, then you are one of the very few that do it all right then. 95% (I know...%s on the net ) of the time in a WZ, no one breaks 10K protection. Obviously there are either only a dozen out there like you that can play as a true tank or a huge majority of tanks in PVP fall into my categorization of being minimal help to a PVP team. Maybe the role is just that challenging. As a DPS or healing spec, you heal or attack. Tank, as you describe it, would be beyond the PVP skills of most tanks that well...let's be honest, are trying hard to be bad DPS that is harder to kill while occasionally tossing on guard to make healers happy.

[AlyxDinas]

The above poster (kjfett's) notion about having guard take up a healer from the rest of the group is just outright wrong. You can run with a healer in your pocket but even if you're dedicating your guard to that healer, they're usually not dedicating only to you if everyone's doing their jobs. We mitigate but if you're really good about how you approach things, that'll be all the incoming damage you're taking. If you play the positioning game right, you can take advantage of the fact that people tend to tunnel vision the healer and do a fair share of field control to that end. Besides, a good tank is also adaptable and can switch guard as needed. But that's a whole different topic.

 

Shield is still viable enough even though it lost single target capabilities. Not perfect but certainly gets the job done. In the right situations, it actually does really well. We can be a lot more mobile than our peers and do some fairly nice AoE damage that just as competitive. It's a support build in full right now, benefiting more in large, crowded melees than one v ones. That's where our utilities really tend to shine. And, properly played, can still be a real pain to the enemy.

[kjfett]

Never mind. You all keep believing and maybe someday BW will fix the gimped trees and make you as viable as you believe you are. good luck till then! Assault. Edited July 2, 2012 by kjfett

[Philosomanic]

If you are doing all of that regularly, then you are one of the very few that do it all right then. 95% (I know...%s on the net ) of the time in a WZ, no one breaks 10K protection. Obviously there are either only a dozen out there like you that can play as a true tank or a huge majority of tanks in PVP fall into my categorization of being minimal help to a PVP team. Maybe the role is just that challenging. As a DPS or healing spec, you heal or attack. Tank, as you describe it, would be beyond the PVP skills of most tanks that well...let's be honest, are trying hard to be bad DPS that is harder to kill while occasionally tossing on guard to make healers happy.

 

See, now this I can agree with 100%. The people who play a tank spec because they don't like dying are dragging their team down (you can actually see me chewing one out here). Those "tanks" are the ones that give PvP tanking a bad name. And unfortunately, a large majority of people in tank spec fall into that category. Anyone who fails to break 10k protection, ever, fits this bill.

 

The key to effective PvP tanking is a complete priority shift. Most DPS/faketank players focus first and foremost on themselves. Their main priority is attacking the enemy and staying alive (good players put objectives above that). Then, if they have some energy/time/attention to spare, they defend their team. In order to be a good PvP tank, you have to put defense of the team above killing people or keeping yourself alive. If I see a friendly healer going down or an enemy with low health, I'll go for the healer 100% of the time.

 

Oh, and about protection totals. Protection totals don't tell the whole story any more than the other numbers do (but of course you know that). I almost never get under 50k. For a moderate-length match and with PUG healers that are willing to work with me, I average 75-100k protection. For PUGs, my goal is for my protection+damage to match my team's top DPS. I don't often meet that, but I usually come pretty close. When I'm running with a highly-skilled healer that really knows how to work with a tank, I usually get around half of what the healing my partner gets (so if they get ~200k healing, I'll pull ~100k prot).

 

My protection record is 251k, from a drawn-out stalemate voidstar. It was the kind of match where DPS'ers pull 500-600k. I got over 200k damage too, but I can't remember the exact number. My healer pulled 580-something, if I recall correctly.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Philosomanic

[kjfett]

See, now this I can agree with 100%. The people who play a tank spec because they don't like dying are dragging their team down (you can actually see me chewing one out here). Those "tanks" are the ones that give PvP tanking a bad name. And unfortunately, a large majority of people in tank spec fall into that category. Anyone who fails to break 10k damage fits this bill.

 

The key to effective PvP tanking requires a complete priority shift. Most DPS/"tank" players focus first and foremost on themselves. Their main priority is attacking the enemy and staying alive (good players put objectives above that). Then, if they have some energy to spare, they defend their team. In order to be a good PvP tank, you have to put defense of the team above killing people or keeping yourself alive. If I see a friendly healer going down or an enemy with low health, I'll go for the healer 100% of the time.

 

Oh, and about protection totals. Protection totals don't tell the whole story any more than the other numbers do (but of course you know that). I almost never get under 50k. For a moderate-length match and with PUG healers that are willing to work with me, I average 75-100k protection. For PUGs, my goal is for my protection+damage to match my team's top DPS. I don't often meet that, but I usually come pretty close. When I'm running with a highly-skilled healer that really knows how to work with a tank, I usually get around half of what the healing my partner gets (so if they get ~200k healing, I'll pull ~100k prot).

 

My protection record is 251k, from a drawn-out stalemate voidstar. It was the kind of match where DPS'ers pull 500-600k. I got over 200k damage too, but I can't remember the exact number. My healer pulled 580-something, if I recall correctly.

 

That makes sense, but it is rare. I can't recall ever having actually seen that in a PUG...ever. If I saw that on a regular bases, I have no doubt my faith in the Shield spec would change.

[AlyxDinas]

Never mind. You all keep believing and maybe someday BW will fix the gimped trees and make you as viable as you believe you are. good luck till then! Assault.

 

Please don't confuse my saying that a good player can make the spec work as the same as saying that the spec is optimal or in a place where it could not benefit from adjustments. Shield Spec took a major, appreciable hit in 1.3. However, it can is still capable of moderately high competitive play and has strong synergy with many other classes. It just is heavily dependent on the person at the keyboard understanding the tools that their disposal.

 

S. Spec is a support class with functional sustained damage capabilities and high mobility. If you manage your uptime well, you can not only do significant defense/mitigation numbers but you also will be able to keep pressure on relevant enemies as well as control their position. Outside of the main mitigation role, the name of the game is harassment, enemy resource management (at times, anyway), and pressure. Lots of pressure. DoTs, taunts, AoE debuffs, area of denial. Things that make them have to choose between attacking me or my teammate.

Edited July 2, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Philosomanic]

That makes sense, but it is rare. I can't recall ever having actually seen that in a PUG...ever. If I saw that on a regular bases, I have no doubt my faith in the Shield spec would change.

 

 

Well, there's an easy way to fix that. Start playing a PvP tank . It's an incredibly challenging, fulfilling role. You get to leap into the fray and save people (which I love doing), you're unbelievably hard to kill, and you get to feel secretly smug and superior because you're part of the 5% doing things right.

 

I've been thinking about writing a VG PvP tank guide for this forum, in hopes that it'll get stickied. It'd be 1/3 discussion of why a PvP tank is worth it (so I can point all the nay-sayers to one post) and 2/3 build advice and tactics. Maybe that will encourage more people to play PvP tanks, and play them well.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Philosomanic

[kjfett]

Well, there's an easy way to fix that. Start playing a PvP tank . It's an incredibly challenging, fulfilling role. You get to leap into the fray and save people (which I love doing), you're unbelievably hard to kill, and you get to feel secretly smug and superior because you're part of the 5% doing things right.

 

I've been thinking about writing a VG PvP tank guide for this forum, in hopes that it'll get stickied. It'd be 1/3 discussion of why a PvP tank is worth it (so I can point all the nay-sayers to one post) and 2/3 build advice and tactics. Maybe that will encourage more people to play PvP tanks, and play them well.

 

Oh No! I greatly enjoy my highly mobile VG Assault Trooper.

[Philosomanic]

Oh No! I greatly enjoy my highly mobile VG Assault Trooper.

 

Psh. I used to think my Assault VG was mobile. Then I experienced the joy of covering thirty meters in 1.5 seconds

[kjfett]

Psh. I used to think my Assault VG was mobile. Then I experienced the joy of covering thirty meters in 1.5 seconds

 

Why? AP, IR, HS, HIB, etc. all cover 30 meters in fractions of a second.

[Spatology]

If you are sheild spec, and not useing Combat Tech set for pvp, you are doing it wrong. The additional dmg reduction from expertise and what we get from the spec is plenty. It also increases your ability to "pressure" healers from the crit gained. Pre 1.2, i was actually able to kill healers not just pressure. Couple these factors with mobility, taunts, and a guard...

 

Even given the HUGE nerf to the single target dmg, punishing people for stacking up for sorc heals is uber fun.

 

Id also point out that Sheildspec's slow for pvp is only 1 point and procs alot ~

[Philosomanic]

If you are sheild spec, and not useing Combat Tech set for pvp, you are doing it wrong. The additional dmg reduction from expertise and what we get from the spec is plenty. It also increases your ability to "pressure" healers from the crit gained. Pre 1.2, i was actually able to kill healers not just pressure. Couple these factors with mobility, taunts, and a guard...

 

Even given the HUGE nerf to the single target dmg, punishing people for stacking up for sorc heals is uber fun.

 

Id also point out that Sheildspec's slow for pvp is only 1 point and procs alot ~

 

 

I'm actually aiming for the 2-piece supercommando and 2-piece combat tech. They give me less damage, perhaps, but maximum utility, which is what I'm all about. However, the Supercommando 4-piece is a very valid bonus, and it shows that you're actually playing correctly. It'll actually give you a higher damage boost than Combat Tech's 4-piece, especially when you factor in -1.5s CD on Energy Blast.

[Pistols]

I'm actually aiming for the 2-piece supercommando and 2-piece combat tech.

 

^ Is my next step, just need to grind out 2 more WH pieces for it.

 

******

 

As for the discussion, I am SS running a variant of IF (few points tweaked here and there), and with a solid rated team I've been doing ok. My primaray role is to Guard, taunt, interrupt, taunt, interrupt and just keep my up time going as long as possible. I was doing Assault well before the lolFOTM's hit this class, and maybe a month before rateds I went back to SS to better understand a group role that was needed for us. While I am not knocking Assault (as it is great damage), our team does well with a dedicated tank. I do believe this tank class is lacking compared to other tank classes, and wouldn't mind seeing us have some healing capability as well (not stims).

Edited July 3, 2012 by Pistols

[TheOpf]

I would take anything posted by 13th Company representatives with a grain of salt. I have seen their Vanguards in action. Having said that.

 

There are Shield Spcs I have seen drop 200k damage and 100k prot which was unheard of pre 1.3. The AoE dot is definitely nice. However, there is no reason to take Combat Tech anymore, the damage difference will be minimal and your death will come sooner.

 

Taugrim and I agree on this part - Supercommando should be the set for tanks now, and you should switch guard to whoever is being focused. Keeping guard on your healer at all times is a huge mistake and a complete waste of guard. It should be tossed around to help dps stay alive, as well as taunting.

 

The biggest issue with Assault is it is easy to counter and they die quickly. Plus most of them have giant egos and little brains. They get so caught up in their boom boom, they forget they can taunt and use grapple to peel.

 

Tactics players tend to be more aware because they are always preparing for a setup. It provides more utility, and our Tactics guy is our best defender simply because his constant mobility allows him and increased survival allows him to solo guard better than most non-tanks.

[SuperGrunt]

I'd actually like to argue that. Tactics could apply better pressure than me with their epic Pulse Cannon, but a Shield Vanguard can actually apply more AoE pressure by quite a bit than Assault. I'd count myself as barely behind Tactics in AoE; my lower DPS is made up for by my higher downtime. Also, it comes down to a matter of playstyle. Even when unsupported, I still place a primary focus on control, debuffs, and taunts before I worry about DPS. Most DPS players focus on DPS first.

 

However, it's incredibly rare for me to be unsupported. Almost all healers recognize the value of a good tank, and they're willing to work with me. With a decent healer, I guard the healer and keep them alive. With a good healer, I guard the lowest-health player and the healer keeps us both alive.

 

Whenever someone attacks a target I'm protecting, they do roughly 46% less damage overall. The original target takes roughly 31% of the damage they would have, and I absorb an additional 22%. That means that the healer has basically half the healing to do, and it's far harder to burst down a target that they're healing. That's ignoring a lot of factors. If the attacker is a juggernaut/marauder/sniper, drop that damage by another 10% (even more if I have Smoke Grenade up). I'm also pulling and rooting and stunning throughout this whole fight, and just generally making it miserable for you to attack my team. (Math)

 

If you honestly think that having a tank is hurting your team, go to the healer forums and ask them. I can almost gaurantee that they'll tell you that tanks make their heals far more effective. You can't have more than two tanks on a good team (because after that you're cutting DPS to minimal benefit), but us PvP tanks do have our place.

 

I agree with Phil, on my Vangaurd I am also Shield speced, and at lvl 38 I am normally pulling 110-150k damage in a Warzone along with 13+k protection (the lower end isn't normal, and pretty much only happens when I run into a well co-ordinated group). Granted I normally don't put my guard up after the initial push unless I have a guild healer running with me, because too often I seem to die, because the healer I am guarding won't be healing me, I know selfish of me to want them to help me save their rear end by tossing me a few heals. Also I generally get top medals on my Vangaurd, sometimes getting beat by one or two medals by someone, generally a lvl 40-49.

[icegreentea]

Shield works well in pvp. Though I would say a vanguard/powertech tank is simply not as good as a shadow or guardian tank. Those other classes simply have more utility when it comes to tanking in pvp. Though a good tank is absolutely required in high rated games.

 

For rated games it's simply better to go full tank when playing the role of a tank. This requires you to focus on guarding the healers, throwing out taunts and running the ball in huttball. In rated games the best teams will have at least 4 if not more dps players in the best gear coordinating to burn down targets. You just won't be able to defend a node or shield a healer for long against multiple players that are focusing their attacks on you. To be most effective as a tank you simply will have to go all the way by getting all the tanking gear and spec every point for defense. For regular warzones where few people actually coordinate attacks, a hybird spec with dps gear is fine for doing the tanking duties. Not so in rated games. You need to go tanking all the way and forget about dps.

 

I have yet to see a high rank team play without a tank. You just have to know your duties.