Vigilance pvp needs a buff

[Skroting]

Leading with MS initially allows whoever you've just FL'd to set the momentum, as I've stated before that is an unacceptable advantage to give another melee. Even the less sophisticated players out there will usually dodge that last tick and start running rings around you. The possible benefit of MS as an opener (a little bit more burst when maybe landing that 3rd tick) can't compensate for being a sitting duck.

 

Just gotta ask, do you spec into stagger? With 2/2 stagger, you will either guarantee a third hit, or waste their cc breaker if they simply try to dodge it. Yes occasionally you will get cc'd in the final 0,5 sec window after unremitting ends, but the "less sophisticated" player, does not know this. I can understand your reluctance to use MS if you have not gone for full stagger, but if you do, people will not usually dodge your third strike, that is just wrong.

[Siorac]

So now our dots aren't strong enough either in comparison to other melee's. I told you Vigilance guardians need a buff.

 

Leading with MS initially allows whoever you've just FL'd to set the momentum, as I've stated before that is an unacceptable advantage to give another melee. Even the less sophisticated players out there will usually dodge that last tick and start running rings around you. The possible benefit of MS as an opener (a little bit more burst when maybe landing that 3rd tick) can't compensate for being a sitting duck.

 

To me, not getting the back of the melee I've just rooted with my FL seems like a bigger waste of the root effect and unremitting, but hey, horses for courses bro.

 

So Plasma Brand needs a buff in the form of removal its sunder requirement (to stream line rotation during a switch and to decrease mitigation chances), better front end damage and a retuning of its damage over time properties to bring it more in line with its status as a 31 point talent.

 

Not opening with Master Strike against a RANGED class is more understandable. A Sage or Sorcerer has so many ways of rooting, slowing, stunning etc. that against a good one you have too apply those dots early because you might not get another chance.

 

But on melee? If they use CC break, you also break Master Strike and unleash everything else; if they don't, they eat the three hits. In both cases, I'd say you set the momentum quite well (you either did at the very least 4-5k damage but probably significantly more or you made them waste their CC breaker) . If the opponent is a skilled and geared Sentinel/Marauder you still don't have a chance but as I said earlier, that's a problem with that class, specifically their insane defensive cooldowns.

[bliapis]

id say for me as a sentinel, one of the big pains in the butt in WZs are Guardians/Jug with focus/rage spec. The damage is there and its good.

 

I dont think vigilance really does any damage against geared healers, it wont reallly push them into panic.

 

On the other hand a good sentinel or gunslinger will make the healer run for him money.

[Mancer]

Well to the Op all I have to say.. is welcome to the Merc world.

[Skroting]

id say for me as a sentinel, one of the big pains in the butt in WZs are Guardians/Jug with focus/rage spec. The damage is there and its good.

 

I dont think vigilance really does any damage against geared healers, it wont reallly push them into panic.

 

On the other hand a good sentinel or gunslinger will make the healer run for him money.

 

I believe you are entirely mistaken, when it comes to singletarget i do alot more damage over the course of a fight as vigilance, than i would do as focus. And with the CC immunity it allso gets alot easier for me to actually stay on target

[Qa-Weef]

id say for me as a sentinel, one of the big pains in the butt in WZs are Guardians/Jug with focus/rage spec. The damage is there and its good.

 

I dont think vigilance really does any damage against geared healers, it wont reallly push them into panic.

 

On the other hand a good sentinel or gunslinger will make the healer run for him money.

 

I totally agree, unless I get a lucky series of crits there is no way to really pressure a guarded commando/scoundrel healer. if the situation is compounded by a proficient tank then killing the healer on my own is out of the question.

The best I can hope for is that I'm enough of a nuisance to insure that the healer I've focused can't get any casts off.

 

Refusal into RWZ groups will become the norm due to the shortcomings of Vigilance. "oh I'm sorry you can't provide the dps of a sentinel/vanguard or the utility of a shadow and we've got a dedicated tank for our healers already, sorry man perhaps you had better reroll".

 

Rather than discussing the issues at hand, (survivability, clunky mechanics and weaknesses against other melee) this thread has been mired enough about the pro and con's of opening with MS after FL. GG fellow Guardians, I hope you enjoy playing what will be a dead class/spec.

[VoidJustice]

Just returned to 1.3.

 

I believe the loss of the Power relics has hurt us quite a bit. Our class has high utility and mobility and a bit above average survivability. The relics used to fill in and give us the damage we needed when faced with harder 1v1's. Without the relics we have lost our competitive edge and can no longer compete 1v1 with "good" player Mara's Assasins and PT's. When the tables were truly against us we always had a shot at having our relic up while the guy we were fighting had his down. Without that our dps is too low to maintain credible threat ...

 

We need a mechanic that replaces or in some way fills the Power relics "I must suvive this 1v1" utility for our class. Given our fairly low dps output this would balance us again. Without it... or some other dps buff, we will continue to struggle.

 

Currently the TTK meta game has plowed us back to being a sub-optimal pvp class.

Edited July 11, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Jetflair]

I believe you are entirely mistaken, when it comes to singletarget i do alot more damage over the course of a fight as vigilance, than i would do as focus. And with the CC immunity it allso gets alot easier for me to actually stay on target

 

I agree, and its because dots. Dots tick even if target is switched or it goes out of range. Thus vigilance will always do bit more total damage than Focues atleast in long fights.

 

Personally I don't like vigilance in pvp. I've played all three major trees with bit different talent points quite lot and vigilance is least useful for me. It does work but I don't feel its effective. I dont feel synergy there between talents. Dispatch is great but it tree lacks solid burst to bring targets fast to level where its usable.

 

Master Strike is nice but in my Warzones good players accelerate away when I start to use MS. Its also hard to use effectively in fast moving enviroment when pleyers by purpose try to zig zag near and far +you get CC'd every 5 seconds.

 

I like more tank tree or focus. Both are atleast good in one thing. Vigilance seems to fall between those two in a way it isn't good at either.

[Alec_Fortescue]

I would love to get an ability similar to Powertech's that is giving us a total immunity from CCs. Considering that we're melee combatants and very often we're simply rag dolls in PvP it will be very welcome. Alternatively our Unstoppable/Unremitting should be increased by another second or two because we can't even finish our Ravage/Master Strike quite often due to knockbacks, even though the saber hits clearly and makes an impact sound :'(. Also Pooled Hatred should be fixed as not every movement impairing effects are having an effect on it, though the tooltip says otherwise. The time of the damage boost is also too short as while we're being under movement impairing effect we're usually slowed down, immobilized, stunned so it is very difficult to get in rage of the Impale. It should be buffed because if well used fully stacked Pooled Hatred +10% pvp gear damage bonus can easily hit (provided it crits) Battlemaster-geared sage for well over 5k.

 

And Vengeance DPS in WZ is not a problem - I top the board almost all the time.

Marauder/Sentinel just seems ez mode comparing to Vengeance. I played and it was just too easy... And not as fun as going out there with a class that considered to be most useless and bashing everyone around.

 

http://postimage.org/image/tlxc406c9/

http://postimage.org/image/ojserx1ov/

Edited July 14, 2012 by Alec_Fortescue
bdfjh

[Haldern]

Vigilance doesn't need a buff. It's one of the best damn specs out there if you can use it properly. 1v1 is not relevant in competitive PvP, you will be barely be getting in to any 1v1 situations if you are playing properly. Even then, Vigilance is better at 1v1 than you are making out.

 

Vigilance has amazing survivability, great mobility and great utility (that really defines the spec). This has to come at a cost. The cost is we do slightly less damage than some of the other melee.

 

If you compare Vigilance to say a Rail Shot orientated Powertech you will see what I mean. We are both heavy armour wearing melee specs, however:

 

We have way more mobility. They have a single pull on a 35-45s CD and 9 seconds of CC immunity/30% increased speed on a 30s CD. They also have very poor snaring capabilities. Additionally, none of this helps them move on the Z axis.

 

We have way more survivability, even if we aren't using abilities to their full potential. We have more/better survivability CDs, some of which can be used in imaginative ways to increase survivability even further. For example, you can use a Warzone Medpac with Enure up and Guardian Leap to a healer then LoS while he heals you to full.

 

We have way more utility. For example, we can use Freezing Force to slow reinforcements between turrets, Guardian Leap on someone getting focused fired, peel ranged targets with Freezing Force, quickly swap to Soresu Form* and throw Guard on a healer to save them. The list goes on and on.

 

*PT tanking stance has a cast timer that requires you be stationary.

 

I've played just about every DPS spec now I think, and one of them offer as much utility to the team as a Guardian.

 

This has to come at a cost and the cost is our damage. That doesn't mean we aren't a great asset to any team, because we are.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Haldern

[Qa-Weef]

Haldern, having extra mobility options in huttball doesn't make up for a lack of DPS in the other 3 WZ maps.

 

A Shadow is still a better ball carrier, Sentinels can tank the fire hazard whilst being focus fired and I can GL someone I could have also just passed to, that's some great utility there.

 

Any class can pop a Medpac and also any class with a tanking tree can throw taunts around. Does it cost all a Vanguards resources to switch to Ion Cell like it does a Guardian to switch to Soresu? Have fun building focus from scratch if FL/ST/CF are on CD during a clutch situation.

 

Having the option to be able to leap out of range while being focused is great, but again it's a highly situational escape.

 

Now you can you please answer me this one question: Why should Vigilance' 31 point talent face 2 or 3 times the mitigation risk due to it having a prerequisite effect requirement? ST parried SS dodged = GG no PB.

 

Vigilance needs some streamlining and maybe even a dps boost now going off your post.

[Draqsko]

Haldern, having extra mobility options in huttball doesn't make up for a lack of DPS in the other 3 WZ maps.

 

A Shadow is still a better ball carrier, Sentinels can tank the fire hazard whilst being focus fired and I can GL someone I could have also just passed to, that's some great utility there.

 

Any class can pop a Medpac and also any class with a tanking tree can throw taunts around. Does it cost all a Vanguards resources to switch to Ion Cell like it does a Guardian to switch to Soresu? Have fun building focus from scratch if FL/ST/CF are on CD during a clutch situation.

 

Having the option to be able to leap out of range while being focused is great, but again it's a highly situational escape.

 

Now you can you please answer me this one question: Why should Vigilance' 31 point talent face 2 or 3 times the mitigation risk due to it having a prerequisite effect requirement? ST parried SS dodged = GG no PB.

 

Vigilance needs some streamlining and maybe even a dps boost now going off your post.

 

Silly boy, a shadow doesn't have the same survivability as a guardian, they die to white damage too easily. They are only the best carrier from firetrap to goalline (when they can use their CD and speed burst to cross a fire), not from ball stand to goalline. Also, you can't pass a ball to a target in stealth, however you can GL to said target and not break their stealth, meaning you can set up future scoring opportunities. 1 stealther in endzone, plus 2 sages on the mezzinines plus 2 guardians carrying the ball, plus 3 DPS controlling middle is the optimal team composition for Hball. You'll move the ball extremely fast for scores.

 

Regarding the stance switch, it is very rare that you won't have at least one of ST/FL/CF off cooldown. Even then, you can still use Force Push to reset Leap, as well as peel the person off your guarded target. But most likely it'll be CF off cooldown since it's almost not required in Shien Form. Either way it is extremely rare to have 4 skills on cooldown at once, if you know how to play the class.

 

Plasma Brand doesn't have an issue with proccing off of sundering, because the only spec that is going to be defending both ST AND SS is a tank spec in tank gear. At 25% or less defense chance, the chance of them defending both attacks is 6.25% of the time or less. Can it happen? Yes. Will it happen often? No, certainly not enough to make a difference.

[Qa-Weef]

Silly boy, a shadow doesn't have the same survivability as a guardian, they die to white damage too easily. They are only the best carrier from firetrap to goalline (when they can use their CD and speed burst to cross a fire), not from ball stand to goalline. Also, you can't pass a ball to a target in stealth, however you can GL to said target and not break their stealth, meaning you can set up future scoring opportunities. 1 stealther in endzone, plus 2 sages on the mezzinines plus 2 guardians carrying the ball, plus 3 DPS controlling middle is the optimal team composition for Hball. You'll move the ball extremely fast for scores.

 

Regarding the stance switch, it is very rare that you won't have at least one of ST/FL/CF off cooldown. Even then, you can still use Force Push to reset Leap, as well as peel the person off your guarded target. But most likely it'll be CF off cooldown since it's almost not required in Shien Form. Either way it is extremely rare to have 4 skills on cooldown at once, if you know how to play the class.

 

Plasma Brand doesn't have an issue with proccing off of sundering, because the only spec that is going to be defending both ST AND SS is a tank spec in tank gear. At 25% or less defense chance, the chance of them defending both attacks is 6.25% of the time or less. Can it happen? Yes. Will it happen often? No, certainly not enough to make a difference.

 

This is where you are wrong, with over 100% accuracy this will happen at least once every wz against equally geared competition. I like how you don't factor in focus starvation on an unsuccessful opening ST FL if ST is dodged/parried. Bye Bye CF CD.

The sunder requirement on PB is an unacceptable, clunky mechanic on an already expensive skill that serves no real purpose other than to be a clunky mechanic. This needs resolving.

 

Huttball strats aside how can you possibly suggest that a Vigilance Guardian would be a better ball carrier than a Shadow Tank? Gimme one of them goofballs you seem to be on.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Qa-Weef

[crunchbarry]

They seem pretty squishy when using shien.

[Marqhill]

They seem pretty squishy when using shien.

 

If someone using Shien seems squishy then they're doing it wrong. Unremitting/Unstoppable gives us an additional 20% damage reduction after a force leap. So when we initiate a fight we have 55% damage reduction (assuming full war hero) and are immune to CC. If you use Focused Defense proactively and you have Commanding Awe then you will have 50% damage reduction and a self heal. (+15% damage reduction from Commanding Awe). If you're in an all out survival situation then you can switch to Soresu form and activate Focused Defense. I do this all the time when I'm in huttball. If I'm in Soresu form with Focused Defense active getting shot by sith lightning actualy does 0 damage to me. I actually remember one situation where I popped Focused Defense, Enure while I was in Soresu Form and was getting shot by sith lightning by a sorc who had less expertise than me. Not only was I not taking any damage but I was actually being healed! It was hilarious. This is by no means common but it shows you the type of durability you can get out of being a Vigilance Guardian. I'm a pretty tough nut to crack.

[Helig]

If someone using Shien seems squishy then they're doing it wrong. Unremitting/Unstoppable gives us an additional 20% damage reduction after a force leap. So when we initiate a fight we have 55% damage reduction (assuming full war hero) and are immune to CC. If you use Focused Defense proactively and you have Commanding Awe then you will have 50% damage reduction and a self heal. (+15% damage reduction from Commanding Awe). If you're in an all out survival situation then you can switch to Soresu form and activate Focused Defense. I do this all the time when I'm in huttball. If I'm in Soresu form with Focused Defense active getting shot by sith lightning actualy does 0 damage to me. I actually remember one situation where I popped Focused Defense, Enure while I was in Soresu Form and was getting shot by sith lightning by a sorc who had less expertise than me. Not only was I not taking any damage but I was actually being healed! It was hilarious. This is by no means common but it shows you the type of durability you can get out of being a Vigilance Guardian. I'm a pretty tough nut to crack.

Compared to my frakking Marauder, I do feel squishy in Shien. However, I also feel that my overall survivability is on par, because I have Guardian Leap. But that's kind of... weird for a class that's supposed to be a frontline heavy armour class.

 

Also, I avoid opening with a charge. There's always a chance to attack a ranged player who actually knows what they're doing.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Helig

[Marqhill]

Compared to my frakking Marauder, I do feel squishy in Shien. However, I also feel that my overall survivability is on par, because I have Guardian Leap. But that's kind of... weird for a class that's supposed to be a frontline heavy armour class.

 

Also, I avoid opening with a charge. There's always a chance to attack a ranged player who actually knows what they're doing.

 

I open with saber throw and charge just because it builds so much focus and makes me very hard to kill. But I try not to get into the trap where I Force Push someone and then immediately charge them again. I will force push someone and then usually run over to them while they're getting up. If they use their knockback then I'll just immediately leap back to them. It's extremely frustrating for a lot of people.

[Helig]

I open with saber throw and charge just because it builds so much focus and makes me very hard to kill. But I try not to get into the trap where I Force Push someone and then immediately charge them again. I will force push someone and then usually run over to them while they're getting up. If they use their knockback then I'll just immediately leap back to them. It's extremely frustrating for a lot of people.

 

Precisely. Throw also sets them up for Plasma Brand.

[SwordofSodan]

Dude you are seriously just bad. As a vengeance jugg I'm a monster in pvp and can take on any other melee class. In Huttball I have the mobility to be the best defender and ball carrier. In all the other warzones I just run around killing people in a few attacks each. Charge > ravage > impale > Scream > choke > vicious throw is an easy way to deal with any marauder and prevents undying rage. A lot of the time the scream isn't even necessary. Assassins are a joke the only class that worries me is a good dps powertech but there aren't too many that I encounter and I avoid powertechs anyway because they're harder to kill with melee attacks. I hope they buff vengeance juggs because people like you whine over your class being bad when in reality you just don't know how to play it.

Touche!

[VoidJustice]

Well after a break in play from 1.2 to 1.3 I can honestly say Vigilance feels alot weaker...

 

I think for me at least part of it is the increase of TTK again and the other part is that I may

be out of practice a bit.

 

Either way... doesn't feel right... there's been a disturbance in my force.

 

Not the worst balance point we've ever been at, but disappointing after the fun of 1.2

Edited July 16, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Soapland]

Nice counter there bro.

 

Vigilance Guardians are the weakest of the melee specs. This isn't opinion, its fact, in a 1v1 they will always lose to a Shadow and Sentinel, whilst having a close fight with vanguards and scoundrels.

Their (limited) utility and mobility does not make up for their lack of survivability and damage when battling other melee classes.

 

Lack of survivability and damage? Lol. You have no clue what you're talking about. Vigilance guardians are the BEST 1v1 spec, except maybe for a tank shadow. Its not even close against a vanguard or operative, they just get pwned. As long as you have your cooldowns, everything is fine.

 

*** man, even if you considered vigilance below sents and shadows, its surely still a better pvp spec then lethality operatives or AP powertechs, i mean, come on.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Soapland

[RodneyMcNeely]

Vigilance guardians are the BEST 1v1 spec, except maybe for a tank shadow.

I just rolled a Vigilance Guardian for this very reason. My main is a Kinetic Combat Shadow, and they are BEASTS 1v1. The mobility, control, and survivability are AMAZING.

 

However, healers are my BANE. As KC, I simply don't have the burst to pressure them. So, I'm hoping Vigilance will do the trick.

[VoidJustice]

I just rolled a Vigilance Guardian for this very reason. My main is a Kinetic Combat Shadow, and they are BEASTS 1v1. The mobility, control, and survivability are AMAZING.

 

However, healers are my BANE. As KC, I simply don't have the burst to pressure them. So, I'm hoping Vigilance will do the trick.

 

Yea healers are actually our specialty I think... it's not about dps ... it's about interupts and position control.

 

In general thou... we went from being mildy average in 1.2 to much worse in 1.3... at this point I do think we need some love... /shrug

Edited July 18, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Qa-Weef]

Yea healers are actually our specialty I think... it's not about dps ... it's about interupts and position control.

 

In general thou... we went from being mildy average in 1.2 to much worse in 1.3... at this point I do think we need some love... /shrug

 

A geared and guarded commando/scoundrel might change your mind on this topic. Those guys can be near impossible to take down.

[Draqsko]

A geared and guarded commando/scoundrel might change your mind on this topic. Those guys can be near impossible to take down.

 

Commando isn't hard to bring down or at least remove them from being useful in a warzone, they are turret healers after all. I just find that commando healers are easier to bring down than sage healers.. Sawbones scoundrels though, they just have too many escape avenues.. Even if you remove a chunk of their hp, they always have something availible to give them an out, they are more slippery than lubed up teflon.