1.3 Thoughts thus far...

[Sildanar]

Regarding looking for something apart from Kinetic but not so predictable as Infil.

I was looking for exactly this, and did not feel the Arika build was what I was after.

My build 1/23/17 is an attempt at this, unfortunately I have had practically no time to try it out, I'm just too busy healing on my Sawbones main.

I have a link to it in the the testing specs post but will link to it here as well.

Note, Torhead has mucked up its Spec trees and has balance and kinetic swapping places. 1/23/17 is what it is in game.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601f0cRrMZGGMR0hMbzZz.2

Build is 1 (very optional) Kinetic, 23 Infil, 17 Balance

Its gets Insta Force Lift, Force in Balance, Low slash and exit strategy.

The one point in Kinetic could perhaps be better in masked assault, but as I said I have had no chance to try it out

Would love an opinion or even better somone who has the time to try it out... Just dont try it out on me, I have enough dps chasing my butt as it is

[reinforever]

I'll go by it point for point.

Force lift and low slash serve two very different purposes. If I want to take a healer out of a fight, I'm not going to stop attacking my focus to run 30 meters over to him, low slash, then run back. That's ridiculous; force lift's purpose is to take someone out of a fight for a long period of time, while low slash is for setting up for shadow strike and escapes, the latter which force lift does better.

 

The entire playstyle of infiltration is limiting which is part of why it's so easy to counter. For instance, you HAVE to setup two CS's before projecting, and you always want to have at least 3 stacks of exit strategy before force breach. If you don't do either of those, you're gimping yourself. The big hitters simply require too much setup, and even with that setup, you're relying on crits to produce any sort of real damage. Arika removes setup/rotation in favor of a priority system. If FiB is up, use it. If FB is up, use it. From there, you can choose from project, spinning strike, or double strike as filler (which also hits harder than CS). Not to mention that two of your biggest hitters are both internal damage. The amount of GCDs it takes to kill someone is pretty much the same as well.

 

waitwaitwait. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) but doesn't the Arika build use circling shadows for the project? And as far as exit strategy goes you can either use saberstrike to build up force if you need it or do clairvoyant strikes to set up both circling shadows AND exit strategy, so technically there's no rotation for this infiltration, just priorities. IF FW is up,use SS, if your two CS is up, use project, spinning strike clairvoyant strike and saber strike (leads to exit strategy AND helps with force) are all good filler.

 

Also, how is double strike more of a hard hitter? And as far as lift goes, I would rather have low slash because I get four of them for each of your lifts and their health doesn't regenerate while they're down (or up) and does damage rather.

Edited July 3, 2012 by reinforever

[teremx]

waitwaitwait. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) but doesn't the Arika build use circling shadows for the project? And as far as exit strategy goes you can either use saberstrike to build up force if you need it or do clairvoyant strikes to set up both circling shadows AND exit strategy, so technically there's no rotation for this infiltration, just priorities. IF FW is up,use SS, if your two CS is up, use project, spinning strike clairvoyant strike and saber strike (leads to exit strategy AND helps with force) are all good filler.

 

Also, how is double strike more of a hard hitter? And as far as lift goes, I would rather have low slash because I get four of them for each of your lifts and their health doesn't regenerate while they're down (or up) and does damage rather.

 

It's not a set rotation, and it's not a priority... I call it a forced window. You have a certain window before buffs wear off to use project. Some of you will say that waiting on it is a loss, but will you be waiting for regen later on anyways? I've CS'd 2x and then SS/ or sabered as I watched a guy pop resil while i did that and dumped project on another target. Granted, i think Inf is still too weak compared to balance. That's my opinion.

[reinforever]

It's not a set rotation, and it's not a priority... I call it a forced window. You have a certain window before buffs wear off to use project. Some of you will say that waiting on it is a loss, but will you be waiting for regen later on anyways? I've CS'd 2x and then SS/ or sabered as I watched a guy pop resil while i did that and dumped project on another target. Granted, i think Inf is still too weak compared to balance. That's my opinion.

 

That's actually a pretty good way to put it. You can renew those windows pretty easily though if i'm 1v1'ing to cap a node and I see them pop a defense buff, I choose to go with saber strikes to build up force and exit strategy for when it wears off and then hit them even harder.

[Xinika]

waitwaitwait. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) but doesn't the Arika build use circling shadows for the project?

No? That's just a bonus. I have a strong feeling a lot of you are playing that spec horribly wrong. It's more about kiting and moving in and out of melee/force ranges.

 

Anyways, still doing tests, update post to come soon.

[alkhattabi]

Regarding looking for something apart from Kinetic but not so predictable as Infil.

I was looking for exactly this, and did not feel the Arika build was what I was after.

My build 1/23/17 is an attempt at this, unfortunately I have had practically no time to try it out, I'm just too busy healing on my Sawbones main.

I have a link to it in the the testing specs post but will link to it here as well.

Note, Torhead has mucked up its Spec trees and has balance and kinetic swapping places. 1/23/17 is what it is in game.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601f0cRrMZGGMR0hMbzZz.2

Build is 1 (very optional) Kinetic, 23 Infil, 17 Balance

Its gets Insta Force Lift, Force in Balance, Low slash and exit strategy.

The one point in Kinetic could perhaps be better in masked assault, but as I said I have had no chance to try it out

Would love an opinion or even better somone who has the time to try it out... Just dont try it out on me, I have enough dps chasing my butt as it is

 

ur missing lot of pvp talents like reduce interupt CD and misdirection which is increase ur speed while in combat (people already test it i saw it some where in the fourms )

 

how about this :

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601f0cRrMZhGbRkhMbzZ0z.2

also Build is 1 (very optional) Kinetic, 23 Infil, 17 Balance

[reinforever]

No? That's just a bonus. I have a strong feeling a lot of you are playing that spec horribly wrong. It's more about kiting and moving in and out of melee/force ranges.

 

Anyways, still doing tests, update post to come soon.

 

Good to hear good to hear, what's left?

[Xinika]

Good to hear good to hear, what's left?

 

7/31/3 has actually been my main spec due to the group setup we run most of the time.

13/28 has been on point in stopping caps and adding AoE pressure. (Also solid 1v1)

 

Been hard casting FL as infil ALOT. So Missing Insta-FL does hurt.

On the other hand, Low-Slash is really darn nice for disabling targets or setting up a FL.

 

This is not my full findings but just from what I've learned so far, both specs have a solid place.

I was literally speccing back and forth earlier because I can't decide which one to go with!

 

It's really that tough of a choice. They both offer different niches that cannot be ignored.

 

PS: 6.6k Project earlier (lol?)

Edited July 3, 2012 by Xinika

[_Scattered_]

I have stopped playing but have just had a look at the recent patch notes.

 

The only significant nerf I see here is the armor reduction though I don't know the mitigation loss.

 

I know a lot people were complaining about the self heals and I assume that why it was nerfed but the way the game was playing before I left self healing was rather insignificant when you could easily die in under 10 seconds to 1 decent dps, which is maybe 1 tk throw, 12% *before* the trauma debuff. Which is why I did not bother with 3 stack tk throw instead opting for 2 stack for higher dps/force efficiency.

 

The armor nerf confuses me though, the spec is supposed to be a tank and yet they nerf the mitigation of squishiest tank in the game. Though I suppose you should be glad they didn't remove speed snare break or something else.

 

I actually have a geared Ironfist PT, they are strong, but I have always felt more powerful on my shadow mainly because I could avoid a lot more damage than my PT could tank. I don't expect to go toe to toe with any other melee and survive for long but that's okay because beside spinning strike I never went into melee range anyway.

[Boarg]

I understand Infiltration perfectly well, I've played it myself. What I'm saying is that it's so predictable and simple to shut down that in the end it's just not worth it. You can't deny that 2x CS is a necessary setup for project, and that CS is also one of the flashiest animations in the game. If I'm guarding a healer in rated and you jump on him, I'm going to wait for your 2x CS, then spinning kick, stun, lift any other DPS on the healer, and then when you're unstunned, taunt you, burn you down. Even if you resilience'd, your projects would be hitting 2.5-3k crits max on the guarded healer, as would your force breach. After the 3 seconds went down, I could repeat my CC/taunt chain. It's just the same deal over and over. If you tried to CC me, I could just stun break and pop 5 seconds of resilience. Whereas with 0/13/28 I don't know exactly when you're going to pop your burst, it's going to be more constant, even without crits it's going to be very strong pressure, and not to mention that death field would hit me for 150% if it hit me and my healer. I haven't come across one infiltration/deception that I haven't been able to shut down with no issue.

 

Being a tank and disrupting a dps is just as effective against any dps as it is against Infiltration, if you're a good tank. And I'll also note your CD's on taunts are much longer than you imply. Two things, though...

 

Your team doesn't have enough tanks to worry about me consistently. We have 4-5 dps players that will all ream you or your healer. Most likely, you're gonna be using your tank rotation on the AS Van, or the Sent, or the Scrapper... So, unless you run a terrible comp that has 5 tanks, I don't have much to worry about.

 

Second, if you do try to tank me... Unless the healer is a focused target that is right about to die, I'm not just letting you taunt away my damage. You're standing right next to me and the healer, so I'm gonna CC the healer and turn around and blow you up instead because you don't have a guard and your taunt does nothing when I attack you. All you have is 5s of glowing bright yellow to save you, during which I'll still be hitting you with white attacks and then you'll blow up because Shadow tanks are squishy. And if you don't die, I'm basically CCing you and your healer who is trying to save you from dying. And since it's a team game, I'm probably not the only one killing you.

[MasterGladius]

My biggest concern for this nerf is the forced reliance on the self heal to be a viable tank. The armor nerf isn't so bad when everything goes according to plan. I'm not a hardcore PvPer, but I have done the dailies everyday for about a week and what I have noticed is that while TKT can't be directly interrupted or pushed back when you have 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadow, you are still subject to forced movement, something that is very prevalent in PvP. Knockbacks, knockdowns, pushes, pulls, etc all interrupt your TKT, and thus limit/eliminate your self healing 50-60% of the time. Since you already have the lowest armor rating of any tank in the game, this nerf makes that vulnerablilty really, really bad. Shadows in PvP meltdown fast. Faster, even, than non-tanks.

 

I'd just about rather get rid of self healing and give me the same DR the other tanks enjoy. I have a level 23 Warrior with higher armor DR than my Shadow in Battlemaster survivor gear. That just doesn't seem like it is "Working as intended"

[reinforever]

7/31/3 has actually been my main spec due to the group setup we run most of the time.

13/28 has been on point in stopping caps and adding AoE pressure. (Also solid 1v1)

 

Been hard casting FL as infil ALOT. So Missing Insta-FL does hurt.

On the other hand, Low-Slash is really darn nice for disabling targets or setting up a FL.

 

This is not my full findings but just from what I've learned so far, both specs have a solid place.

I was literally speccing back and forth earlier because I can't decide which one to go with!

 

It's really that tough of a choice. They both offer different niches that cannot be ignored.

 

PS: 6.6k Project earlier (lol?)

 

Good, really glad you're enjoying infil I know a lot of shadows/assassins look up to you on these forums and I'm sure more people will be willing to try it now they see you doing it.

[DarthOvertone]

. There's just no reason to bring a Shadow on board to tank for rateds. Not when there's far superior options out there.

 

I disagree with this completely. We took a small hit to survivability, mainly to armor, but not much else has changed as far as I can tell. My Shadow is almost as beastly in 31/0/10 as he's ever been. Granted, he does have to blow his defensive cooldowns a lot more often, but it's definitely a rock solid spec for Rateds, especially when guarding objectives or ball carrying in Huttball.

 

 

The thing that got me about this nerf is that it went totally contrary to what they wanted to accomplish back in 1.1.3. Not sure the exact patch, but it was the one where they were trying to get rid of the hybrid specs by nerfing stance dancing. They also increased the healing of Combat Tech and made Slow Time more attractive because they said we weren't performing how they wanted us to be and that they wanted the Kinetic Shadows to play a full 31 point spec. Then they come and take away what they had given us and then some (nerfing our armor bonus), making the hybrid role more attractive.

 

My thoughts exactly. That nerf was why I rolled 31/0/10 in the first place. Kind of makes me wonder about the future of the class. These Devs appear to be all over the place, and they still haven't addressed the lack of viability in statting for Shields in PvP.

 

 

I kinda disagree that 31/x/x lost it's charm, it's not like they gutted our utility or anything, just survavibility.

 

Agreed. I still think our ability to tactically use Stealth gives us a clear edge over other Tanks even if our survivability is slightly inferior.

[Boarg]

I disagree with this completely. We took a small hit to survivability, mainly to armor, but not much else has changed as far as I can tell. My Shadow is almost as beastly in 31/0/10 as he's ever been. Granted, he does have to blow his defensive cooldowns a lot more often, but it's definitely a rock solid spec for Rateds, especially when guarding objectives or ball carrying in Huttball.

 

It seems rock solid until you start running into mirror comps in rateds where the other team has similar skill except for they are running Jugg tanks instead of the Shadow tanks that your own team has.

 

 

When swapping guards in a big group fight, the Jugg tank requires a lot less attention and focus from healers to keep them up compared to the Shadow. The result is much less pressure on their healers compared to your own.

 

Their aoe CC beats your own single target CC in emergencies.

 

They are much better at bridging across team rezzes to prevent node caps whenever their healers run out of gas and have to rez because their cooldowns are so much better.

 

They are massively more dangerous and reliable ball carriers in Huttball because of their array of leaps and superior defensive cooldowns and better passive mitigation that make them harder to burst down before a score.

 

Sure, you'll have a lot more damage done on the scoreboard at the end, but it's mostly fluff damage that doesn't impact outcome very much.

 

 

The end result is that they are much better at filling the tank role than Shadows and it shows up in the W/L column. If you can vastly outskill/outgear/outcoordinate teams, yeah...then any tank will do just fine, including Shadows.

[Xinika]

That is indeed a funky spec you're running there Shin'arika.. To me Expertise sounds like wasted points, but perhaps you have found out something neat?

 

You lose the chance to throw an extra rock for overall perhaps, more sustained damage.

[Sildanar]

ur missing lot of pvp talents like reduce interupt CD and misdirection which is increase ur speed while in combat (people already test it i saw it some where in the fourms )

 

how about this :

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601f0cRrMZhGbRkhMbzZ0z.2

also Build is 1 (very optional) Kinetic, 23 Infil, 17 Balance

 

My build does indeed contain Misdirection

Regarding your choice of reduced interupt CD (Celerity) that is definately a solid choice, I just prefer more armour to improve suvivability as much as possible. Personal preference I suppose.

There are a number of personal preference talents as you climb the inilf tree to get the good stuff, I may try out the Celerity version soon.

 

Regarding testing.

I managed to get in a few games on my shadow last night

Spec is performing very well for me, plenty of conttrol, dmg was good but most importantly for me I had the flexibility that could really turn matches around, FiB is just so good for stopping caps and also smashing runners.

Force usage was also good.

Im really enjoying it

[DarthOvertone]

When swapping guards in a big group fight, the Jugg tank requires a lot less attention and focus from healers to keep them up compared to the Shadow. The result is much less pressure on their healers compared to your own.

 

I'll give you this point. They do have better survivability.

 

However, they lack a lot of the utility and the DPS. Give/take there. You certainly don't want a Jugg solo guarding an objective. They are easy CC bait.

 

Their aoe CC beats your own single target CC in emergencies.

 

Yes. But my Shadow's single target CC beats their situational AOE CC at times. meh

 

And Force Wave isn't so bad. Not to mention that I have Slow Time and Force Breach for disrupting mass caps.

 

They are much better at bridging across team rezzes to prevent node caps whenever their healers run out of gas and have to rez because their cooldowns are so much better.

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

They are massively more dangerous and reliable ball carriers in Huttball because of their array of leaps and superior defensive cooldowns and better passive mitigation that make them harder to burst down before a score.

 

This is certainly true.

 

Sure, you'll have a lot more damage done on the scoreboard at the end, but it's mostly fluff damage that doesn't impact outcome very much.

 

I disagree. I don't think the extra damage is fluff damage at all, especially as a part of team focus fire. DPS is king, not to mention the other utility advantages that don't even show up on the scoreboard at the end.

 

Juggs/Guards are superior to Shadow tanks in Huttball. I'll give you that. But it's a toss up, with an edge to Shadows due to our Stealth, on the other maps.

[Xinika]

I'll give you this point. They do have better survivability.

 

However, they lack a lot of the utility and the DPS. Give/take there. You certainly don't want a Jugg solo guarding an objective. They are easy CC bait.

This is simply incorrect. Guardian tanks are equally good if not better at guarding nodes solo than a Shadow tank. They can delay far longer for their backup to arrive. Vanguards are king in this area.

 

 

 

Yes. But my Shadow's single target CC beats their situational AOE CC at times. meh

 

And Force Wave isn't so bad. Not to mention that I have Slow Time and Force Breach for disrupting mass caps.

That's great. Guardians still play a better group support role than a KC and are needed in every and any group setup.

 

 

I disagree. I don't think the extra damage is fluff damage at all, especially as a part of team focus fire. DPS is king, not to mention the other utility advantages that don't even show up on the scoreboard at the end.

 

Juggs/Guards are superior to Shadow tanks in Huttball. I'll give you that. But it's a toss up, with an edge to Shadows due to our Stealth, on the other maps.

(Depending on comp) Actually the extra damage from KC doesn't mean a thing in group combat because people CAN outlast it. It's not a toss up in anything vs Guardians/VGs. When you charge as a group, those two tanks can simply outperform you in the tank role. They don't drop nearly half as fast when guarding and Guardians have the ability to completely shut down an entire group.

 

KCs are geared toward SOLO play. This is why they would be better as a node defender or going after something solo. Even then, it's still a wasted spot because I can defend a node as infil and delay the enemy team long enough to call for my own. I'm also fulfilling another DPS spot instead of wasting it on a half-tank, half-dps. This is the issue w/ KC right now, is that it's an offensive-generalist tank.

 

Now I've been looking around for different combinations using KC and the only way I can justify it's presence in rateds is if the group is super offensive. I mean, 5-6+ DPS options. That is when the damage would actually matter. So it really comes down to comp. However, if you're running cookie-cutter healers+tanks and dps, then no, KC loses it's edge. If you're running some unorthodox smash-em down, it can definitely work.

[Boarg]

However, they lack a lot of the utility and the DPS. Give/take there. You certainly don't want a Jugg solo guarding an objective. They are easy CC bait.

 

I could go with the argument that Shadows are a better solo defender if they combine their stealth delay tactics with in-combat stuff. Against a single incoming, it's almost surely true. Against 3+, the Jugg/Guardian is going to hold out longer just because it boils down to surviving combat as long as possible. And then there's just the simple value of hiding information from the other team.

 

Saying Jugg/Guardian are somehow deficient at the job because they are "CC bait" I don't agree with at all, though. It's impossible for 1 incoming to CC cap against a good player of any class. No one has a PvP CC that lasts longer than the cap time, so the defender always has a chance to break the cap even if they don't use or don't have a CC breaker. So, you're really looking at a situation like double stealth coming in to work together on a CC cap - that can be done. However, Shadow isn't much less vulnerable to that when you get down to it. Tank Shadows don't have improved stealth; they are easily spotted and CC'd themselves, even from stealth. The stealth just makes someone like a Scrapper spend a little more time trying to find you. There's things to do about that, but there's things for the Jugg/Guardian to do, too.

 

Anyway…the point is that the solo defender niche might be an advantage for Shadow, but it's really not a very big advantage. Lots of other classes can do it very effectively, too - and some aren't even tanks. Also, if a team is actually in a position to win by defending, they probably aren't utilizing only a solo defender.

 

A team generally isn't going to bring a Shadow tank just because of liking them for a solo defender. Most teams are going to go for max combat effectiveness and rely on teamwork defense when necessary.

 

Yes. But my Shadow's single target CC beats their situational AOE CC at times. meh

 

And Force Wave isn't so bad. Not to mention that I have Slow Time and Force Breach for disrupting mass caps.

 

Their single target CC ability is pretty much right up with ours if you get down to it. And I could start listing all sorts of useful abilities for them too. One of the big ones is spammable, free, 50% aoe snare with reduced gcd. In a big fight, they single-handedly can make your whole team waddle around at 50% move speed. We're getting perhaps most of their team with Slow Time to move at 70% speed. That movement difference alone is a huge problem.

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

This boils down to understanding how the ebb and flow of big stalemate fights go. Lets say it's 6/7 vs. 6/7 in the middle of Civil War or south node in Novare Coast or at a door in Voidstar. If both sides have healers and tanks, it's going to be a long fight at the very least. Lets say your team is better, so you reliably get kills here and there but the other team is able to respawn fast enough to stay in the fight and keep you from ever wiping them off the node and capping the objective. The problem is, it's difficult to even keep up the mildly dominant position forever. Strategically, you may have to send off a few people to fight somewhere else and give it up. Or if nothing else, your healers can't keep it up forever when the opposing healers keep spawning back fresh. Eventually, the tide shifts and one of your healers die and you end up going through a rez cycle yourself. You might recover, or you might wipe out and end up losing the objective even after pounding the other team's face in for 5 minutes straight.

 

Usually the biggest key to transitioning rez cycles like this is the survivability of the tanks and their skill level at buying time. This is arguably the most important aspect of the tank role in PvP in terms of wins/losses. Shadows are THE WORST at this function…and not just by a little - by a lot. We are soo squishy compared to the other two, especially post nerf. Our self healing is usually denied almost entirely in such a situation. Our single target CC means little when you're so far outnumbered. And our best (only decent one?) defensive cooldown is short duration at 5s. Jugg/Guardian is the best here. If they stack cooldowns, they can be nearly unkillable for 10+ seconds. And usually, the other team has to work harder and longer to even get the Jugg/Guardian team into that position in the first place only to have the whole othe team rez back in fresh after being unable to finish off the tanks in time.

 

I disagree. I don't think the extra damage is fluff damage at all, especially as a part of team focus fire. DPS is king, not to mention the other utility advantages that don't even show up on the scoreboard at the end.

 

The thing is, Shadow tanks really don't look good on the scoreboard if you take away their aoe damage. Nor if they aren't in the middle of a big fight continuously. You put pressure on opposing healers by putting targets in danger of death, and that comes mostly from single target pressure and burst. That's when you make them use cooldowns and dip further down into their resource bar. Healers heal aoe damage with aoe heals and efficient heals and have a lot of time flexibility to top people off. And that's if they even need to heal it at all…you have things like Watchman Sents countering your aoe damage with passive aoe healing and classes with mild self healing. Shadow tank damage (in the amount by which it appears impressive) mostly just ends up padding opposing team heal numbers on the scoreboard. Whatever mild true advantage Shadows actually provide here, it's not nearly enough to make up for the tank role deficiencies.

[allexj]

i dont notice anything diffrant

[Zintair]

This is what the scrubs on the PVP forums wanted. Shadows and Scoundrels//Assassins and Operatives to be garbage. And now they are.

 

PvP in this game is a joke though. I stopped right before 1.2 and haven't looked back. Probably why I am still playing the game.

[Enkenon]

Plain and simple.

A shadow tank can no longer tank especially in WZs.

It's damage output is ridiculous in comparison with the damage dps classes can do and it has more or less the same damage mitigation.Add to that the fact that as a tank it has to guard and get more damage inc.....

Epic fail 1.3.And given the time it takes them to gather data and re balance the game I guess I'll just take a couple of months off when my sub runs out.