Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[ProfessorWalsh]

So the DPS is 100% self sufficient (you said the opposite 10 mins ago btw) but healers and tanks have to team to stand a chance. Nice thought process. How about we just take a shortcut and just give you a nice big red I win button.

 

Oh wait you have undying rage.

 

DPS is dependent on their own healers keeping them up. Did you not read what I wrote? DPS'ers get creamed if they try to fight for long without a Healer.

[ProfessorWalsh]

His input also carried no weight because he has no idea how to play his own class. It's apparently known that he's a repeat whiner because he's been waiting for this game for years and still isn't competent enough to play the class he chose.

 

Let's just ignore him and let people who know what they are talking about to put their two cents in.

 

That means we have to ignore every single healer in this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about if you can't figure out how making healers completely self-reliant is a bad idea. Fortunately BioWare and I seem to see eye to eye on things.

[CaptainApop]

By making Healers more vulnerable to defeat it creates an incentive for people to make Tanks.

 

Not really, mostly it just incentivises healers not to play pvp.

[IsletsReborn]

DPS is dependent on their own healers keeping them up. Did you not read what I wrote? DPS'ers get creamed if they try to fight for long without a Healer.

 

every class hould be self reliant the fact that any class must have another class in order to succeed is flat out stupid. For instance i join a random warzone no tanks give me guard i guess i leave and reque according to you

[Kumbel]

For those who say healers should need a tank are right when it comes to rated.

The problem is even with me being guarded I go down extremely fast . Like others have posted in rated its typically 3 dps focusing me so they can interrupt my attempts to heal myself/tank or escape.

Force run and force armor are worthless abilities in rated. All they do is waste power which really doesnt matter since most of time we dont live long enough to run low on power.

basically an effective balance to me would be if I am guarded by a good tank the dps should be making it extremely hard for me to heal my tank or others. This complete annihilation of the healer is just wrong when they are guarded. It complete destroys any chance of winning a match.

Not sure if this makes any sense but the fact is caster healers spend more time in respawn then healing. This just doesnt seem right to me.

 

I believe the balance of healers should be close to what a scoundrel healer is now. They can hold off most dps for a decent amount time since they can make themselves immune to stuns for 10 seconds which allows then to move and of coarse heal themselves well while they are moving.

 

This may not be worded all that well as I am a little tired but I think most can get what im tryin to say.

[BurnsTwoThree]

That means we have to ignore every single healer in this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about if you can't figure out how making healers completely self-reliant is a bad idea. Fortunately BioWare and I seem to see eye to eye on things.

 

No, because we know we depend on peels/cc. The thing that is being discussed is that HEALERS CANNOT HEAL regardless of their help because of how we/our casts are...

 

A. Weak

B. Squishy

C. Slow Casting

D. Resource Intensive

E. Lacking utility

 

Nobody ever pointed out that we needed to be completely self-reliant or that we shouldn't depend on other classes for help. That's just the obvious reality that you're failing to see. Healers are not where they need to be in order to fulfill the role that they should in Ranked Warzones. They are blown up regardless of the help that they get. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. Stop wasting time making walls of pointless mininformed text that will be noticed less than your live-stream. Thanks.

 

 

EDIT:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfreliance

 

There's the definition of self-reliance.

 

We're talking about making the classes/specs with the role of healing better so they can compete in a ranked WZ setting so they do not get 3 shotted by a single class.

Edited June 29, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[LancelotOC]

Also did anybody ever hear the reasoning as to why Bioware makes some abilities scale with gear for other classes but not our bubble? One thing that baffles me is that with new gear coming out and players with 3-4k more health than before, and our bubble just becomes more and more useless. Damage output is higher, the amount of health is higher and the amount of healing needed (obviously) is higher yet we have an ability that is still tuned from the first patch of the game.

 

I'll tell you why. Because you have a guy working at BW that's been doing MMO pvp for a long time and is of the same mind as Proffesuer. He swears by the concept that good MMO pvp must mimic FPS kill and smash.

 

I met the guy at a Comic Con and when I asked him what's the deal with healers.. he said flat out to my horor "yes we are aware they are too hard to kill". After he said that I changed the subject because it was obvious, being who he was, there was no turning his head around so I stayed with pleasentries.

 

He was off to get lunch and invited me but I was so aghast that a guy with deciding power was so passionate and excited about the high DPS state of the game that I politely declined and went on my way to ponder if maybe it was me that was wrong.

[BurnsTwoThree]

I

I met the guy at a Comic Con and when I asked him what's the deal with healers.. he said flat out to my horror "yes we are aware they are too hard to kill". After he said that I changed the subject because it was obvious, being who he was, there was no turning his head around so I stayed with pleasantries.

 

I can agree we were a tad bit too much at one point, but it didn't warrant such a drastic nerf that was handled with the efficiency of a blind man and deaf man.

 

Honestly. if anything fix the fact we could do the Dark Infusion/Deliverence twice and hell you can even change our regen like they did but leave the numbers alone.

[Centures]

OMG what a Sith Homer!! Sorceres and OPs are sooo Over Powered!!

 

I have seen 6 Sorcerer beat full war hereo groups on CC everyone Alone

[brianmack]

Set the record straight here:

 

pre 1.2 ... it never took 2 dps toons to kill 1 sorc/sage healer. If this is your argument, look in the mirror, you were doing something wrong and were'nt pumping the right rotation.

[BurnsTwoThree]

OMG what a Sith Homer!! Sorceres and OPs are sooo Over Powered!!

 

I have seen 6 Sorcerer beat full war hereo groups on CC everyone Alone

 

Can you understand English? We're talking about healers you clown.

[Helig]

If you read Battering Assault carefully you will notice that it says that it requires two lightsabers. If you can still use vibroblades even with it saying lightsabers please tell me.

 

You retain full functionality with a vibroblade. It's the Shadows\Sins who can't use Charges\Techniques on Electrostaves.

[Helig]

That means we have to ignore every single healer in this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about if you can't figure out how making healers completely self-reliant is a bad idea. Fortunately BioWare and I seem to see eye to eye on things.

 

I find myself pretty self-reliant as a damage-dealer in terms of fending for myself. In fact, of all the roles I played in PvP, damage-dealing seems to be more than self-sufficient in this regard. I only need a healer when I'm being overwhelmed by numbers\gear. But that's only natural.

 

I don't feel the same "freedom" as a tank, and much less so as a healer. And you want to punish those support specs even more? For what? To retain a twisted status-quo, or to satisfy a horrible balancing concept that you made up for yourself?

[Ntranced]

Sorc heals seriously need looked at. The balance of all classes is quite badly out of whack at the moment - some examples:

 

- Sorc/Sage healing and DPS below par

- Operative DPS below par (particularly with changes to adrenals etc)

- Not even going to get in to DPS classes that need looking at

 

Yes, yes - it is possible to see really good Sorc healers, Sorc DPS, Operative DPS but they are so few and far between and the reason is simple: they are excelling in playing a class that is gimped. It is like trying to play the game with one hand. Practice enough you get good at it, but the effort and skill required compared to just rolling a PT/Mara or switching to OP healer is CONSIDERABLE.

 

My sorc is now DPS despite rolling it as a healer, my Operative is now healer despite rolling it as a DPS. On my sorc I just don't have any survivability in heals, there is a permanent marker that says "free kill" to just about any class with someone competent at the keyboard. No margin for error at all, one mistake... one hesitation means death.

 

In ranked on a sorc healer, forget it. It comes to something when I can get crit by melee classes with their "ranged" attack (vicious throw comes to mind) by 4k (yes I'm taking 1.3, yes I'm fully geared). I wish I could hit that when my sorc is DPS specced with anything other than death field. Try kiting as a sorc in rated you won't get further than a couple of steps. It is run (and die) or hold your ground (and die).

 

Sorc heal needs a defensive CD, forget all the utility (which we largely share with Assassin) because it counts for nothing. Force camo would be the ideal one to have imho.

 

I'm not sure the other heal classes need much, operative healer I've only just hit 1100 expertise but it is night and day from playing a sorc healer. Sure the output might be a little lower if you are free casting but in terms of survivability I can't count the number of (unranked) warzones I've gone with 0 deaths despite being harassed by multiple classes (mara/sents mainly). Of course in ranked I'd expect to die hard and fast - a lot - when focused and unguarded.

[NoTomorrow]

Oh that thread again. Some healer that things he is not doing well enough in warzones..

[clowniin]

Good sorc/sage healers will get their casts off. They have so much utility including sprint, range stun, slow, knockback + root.

 

Force armor (the shield) is kind of an heal too. It absorbs 3k+ damage. It just can't crit but can be used on the move too. All the other spells are on such a fast cast time that you have more then enough time to get them off in a 1 vs 1 situation vs an equally skilled / geared DPS if you combin them with your utilites and CC.

 

It's another story in group fights, but as allready said healers shouldn't be balanced on group fights just because DPS isn't balanced on group fights neither. Alot of factors determine whether you are succesfull or not in those fights.

 

Im sorry to be harsh, but my guess is you are not a healer?

You are wrong on so many levels...

 

Bringing it back to the base of this discussion:

 

1 healer vs 1 dps should be a stalemate if they are equally geared/skilled and can play their roles.

 

At the moment though: It doesnt matter how fat your gear is as a healer, you will die trying to run.

And hence the word "trying". Most of our spells cannot be cast while moving. Which is a big mistake in my humble opinion. The casttime for big heals is really to long.

 

Range stun? Yeah, you can try. See how long it takes for any other class to wiggle it off and you are back to dying again.

 

Im not asking to make us healers epic. Im just asking to balance it a little more. We dont have to be able to stalemate 2 DPS, but is 1 to much to ask? Would it be really that bad for you DPS people if 2 of you would have to put in a little more effort to kill a healer?

[fungihoujo]

It is clear that you don't like DPS and that you especially don't like Melee DPS.

 

Right now DPS die very fast when attacked, just as fast as Healers usually, sometimes they might live a whole 5 seconds longer. (Oh noes! They can survive 3 whole global cool downs! The horror!) DPS, especially melee DPS, are also vulnerable to roots, snares, stuns, mezzes, and the like.

 

Healers are not Tanks and should not have Tank-like survivability.

 

Seriously Fungi, just go group with a Tank and try it out. You will find it a lot more fun.

 

Maybe you should try grouping with a healer, or playing a good DPS spec for killing healers, or focusing players, or using your CDs in more creative ways- you're the person who said that force camo wasn't a gap closer, but an escape- every time you talk here you show you have an extremely two dimensional view- you want everything to be 'rocks beat scissors' in simplistic menality, and you want DPS to be the ONLY solo viable role in the game.

 

And you don't even seem to realize what your saying does not support your point- yes, EVERYTHING dies extremely fast when grouped up on- but, that makes sense. Yet, even 1v1 everything dies fast. Regardless- marauders, with CC, gap closers, vanish, a damage mitigation ability that can be up for half a minute, saber ward, 5 seconds of immunity- clearly has the defensive ability to mitigate significantly more damage than someone with light armour and zero defensives.

 

The problem isn't that they have all that- it's that other classes don't come even close. You are the one who is saying that healers shouldn't be able to survive long because that's not their job- that's what tanks do. Yet, isn't that what healers do for DPS- so by your very logic, as the one who is saying healers don't deserve defensive CDs and should be squishy- DPS should be squishy too. Also, healers are just as vulnerable to that CC, and when that CC interrupts a healer they restart their cast- while a marauder can only be interrupted on ravage and choke- a healer also is vulnerable to interrupts, which are across the board on very low CDs compared to other CC, and will lock out one of maybe two decently sized heals... essentially leaving a healer to rely on long CD heals or weak instant HoTs.

 

DPS are relatively not nearly as squishy- a marauder can easily counter snares, and while on the move has access to all their abilities while a healer on the move loses most to nearly all of theirs. That a DPS can have over double the mitigation of a healer, several seconds of invulnerability, temporary damage immunity, and a vanish which can be used offensively or to escape does give them a great deal more survivability and if you used your abilities correctly you'd know it.

 

Again though- it's not a problem that a marauder can survive, I don't consider marauders to be in a bad place if every other class was balanced to them- the problem is many other classes feel like they're unfinished, that they're missing abilities, that healing/damage wasn't balanced to fit the norm, and that healing was tested against DPS who don't use their interrupts and CC effectively.

 

You know full well a marauder can go out on their own and be successful, and in a group they're good for picking off players smartly- your problem is you play a marauder by charging into a cluster of 5 players and wondering why you die. You think you're a tank, but the truth is no class actually can do that in this game, even the tanks- especially without a healer.

 

As you noted though- right now DPS die very fast, even with their defensives. So, if the TTK is so low, why your hate for healers? Your only defense is that a team of six healers will never die- well, a team of six good DPS will shred anything they touch- you act surprised that a team that is only one role will be good at that role.

 

The only thing I can give you is you were right that teams that are bad, poorly organized, don't focus and have little skill or gear will suffer a great deal more if they have no healer than if they have a few- a healer that is completely left alone will dominate. However, healers are too easy to counter for good players- and while you may insist that games balance around bads- if that continues to be the case for this game, ranked pvp is doomed to fail, and will never be taking seriously in the gaming community.

[Darth_Philar]

I vote for a mechanic change.

 

Give Sorcs/Sages two stances, one that buffs their force power and the other that allows casted abilities to be used while moving.

[fungihoujo]

I vote for a mechanic change.

 

Give Sorcs/Sages two stances, one that buffs their force power and the other that allows casted abilities to be used while moving.

 

Or, perhaps a mobility stance for healers, and something like shadowform for madness- could even include no healing allowed but come with increased mitigation and health drain.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Or, perhaps a mobility stance for healers, and something like shadowform for madness- could even include no healing allowed but come with increased mitigation and health drain.

 

I vote for a mechanic change.

Give Sorcs/Sages two stances, one that buffs their force power and the other that allows casted abilities to be used while moving.

 

 

I like the ideas guys but I'm not out looking to change the class much. I just believe for balance to come back to PvP (at a competitive level) a couple specs need their damage toned down and all of the healer specs to get a little boost to help them compete.

 

Will healers die in Ranked Warzones? OF COURSE

 

But with these buffs would we be unkillable? No not at all, probably difficult for any average players not looking to do much except enter some regular Warzones. But can anyone honestly say that it is any different in any other MMO?

 

 

The ball is in Bioware's court. It has been seen launch, let's see where this takes us. Will their ranked system continue to be run by two bullet-proof glass cannon classes or will they give healers the necessary tools to be you know..... healers..

[fungihoujo]

I like the ideas guys but I'm not out looking to change the class much. I just believe for balance to come back to PvP (at a competitive level) a couple specs need their damage toned down and all of the healer specs to get a little boost to help them compete.

 

Will healers die in Ranked Warzones? OF COURSE

 

But with these buffs would we be unkillable? No not at all, probably difficult for any average players not looking to do much except enter some regular Warzones. But can anyone honestly say that it is any different in any other MMO?

 

 

The ball is in Bioware's court. It has been seen launch, let's see where this takes us. Will their ranked system continue to be run by two bullet-proof glass cannon classes or will they give healers the necessary tools to be you know..... healers..

 

Reduce damage, increase not healing but ability to get heals off (instants, defensives, healer CC, interrupt protection)- and make it so objectives in WZ rely on something other than low TTK. Biggest problem is, Alderaan and VS more or less are both entirely about turtling, and Novare is to a degree the same.

 

Make larger maps, less convenient rez spots, Alderaan function like Novare, and make the VS doors break of a bomb plant OR a certain amount of damage done- not unlike the Battlefield rush objectives that the WZ is based entirely on.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Reduce damage, increase not healing but ability to get heals off (instants, defensives, healer CC, interrupt protection)- and make it so objectives in WZ rely on something other than low TTK. Biggest problem is, Alderaan and VS more or less are both entirely about turtling, and Novare is to a degree the same.

To an extent I can agree with you. I do think a lot of abilities especially for Marauder/Sent Pyro/Van should be toned down quite a bit simply because of their high uptime on pretty much anyone they go after.

 

Even so our instant heals DO need an increase. Our Resurgence/Rejuvination should be a bigger tick, at least 3-4 times more (only ticks for around 225 in PvP as of now) and increasing the duration so we can blanket a few people with HoTs.

 

Our bubble (as said many times before) needs to scale with gear. 3K damage absorb does not cut it on a 20 second CD with nerfed Force Regen.

 

But over all I like your post.

[Kumbel]

Look its not that healers will die in wz, its that we spend more time in respawn then we do actually playing the game. This simply comes down to is it any fun to play a healer in pvp anymore?

My answer is no....I am a ruined class atm.

Pure and simple this is a game and should be fun for all players. What I think is fun is the challenge to keep myself and my team up the best I can. I accept that I will die but when I am killed off so fast I never have a chance to do my job I have lost purpose. It takes everything I can not to exit war zone.

It will be like going into a raid and having your healers being constantly target by the boss. It would destroy the whole dynamic of the raiding group. Which is whats happening in pvp. The tanks do not have the ability to manage the agro I get as a healer so not only do I get wiped out quick so does the tank who is guarding me.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Kumbel

[BurnsTwoThree]

Look its not that healers will die in wz, its that we spend more time in respawn then we do actually playing the game. This simply comes down to is it any fun to play a healer in pvp anymore?

My answer is no....I am a ruined class atm.

Pure and simple this is a game and should be fun for all players. What I think is fun is the challenge to keep myself and my team up the best I can. I accept that I will die but when I am killed off so fast I never have a chance to do my job I have lost purpose. It takes everything I can not to exit war zone.

It will be like going into a raid and having your healers being constantly target by the boss. It would destroy the whole dynamic of the raiding group. Which is whats happening in pvp. The tanks do not have the ability to manage the agro I get as a healer so not only do I get wiped out quick so does the tank who is guarding me.

 

You are preaching to the choir. The reason I created this topic was to discuss healing and the current state of healing being in the gutters. I wish I knew more about the other two healing classes than I do of Sorc/Sage but I don't (know the general gist of everything though).

 

The only thing good that can come out of this is that Bioware sees that there's a large enough community of players who feel as though healing is not where it needs to be in order to make Ranked PvP worth doing. As of now I do not enjoy walking up to a node and dying before I can cast anything just because I have no personal CDs to use other than some lame heals that wouldn't keep a level 30 up from two questing elites.

[fungihoujo]

You are preaching to the choir. The reason I created this topic was to discuss healing and the current state of healing being in the gutters. I wish I knew more about the other two healing classes than I do of Sorc/Sage but I don't (know the general gist of everything though).

 

The only thing good that can come out of this is that Bioware sees that there's a large enough community of players who feel as though healing is not where it needs to be in order to make Ranked PvP worth doing. As of now I do not enjoy walking up to a node and dying before I can cast anything just because I have no personal CDs to use other than some lame heals that wouldn't keep a level 30 up from two questing elites.

 

The sad thing is- I can build a better healing, and FAR superior survival, spec in GW2 on almost any class than I can in this game... and GW2 doesn't have healing.

 

BW has a huge amount of work to do- and not just on healers or evening out DPS or looking at resolve and CC- but open world pvp, pvp for casuals who got shafted hard with no solo ranked. Better WZ and better objectives are a must.