Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[BurnsTwoThree]

Honestly... nobody has ever said healers should tank- surviving for over 6 seconds isn't tanking, it's having baseline survival needed in order to do ANYTHING- healing included.

 

You also realize when you say 'DPS don't survive long too', well of course they don't- a single DPS has just killed your healer in five seconds- maybe if healers could get off heals in pvp even against good players you'd be getting healed.

 

But frankly- this is the only defense you ever have- 'you guys wanna be tanks even though none of you said that you wanna be tanks, I'm gonna also ignore every single argument you make and just repeat the same thing I'm always saying'. I'm beginning to doubt you even read any of this.

 

"Blah blah blah, Healers shouldn't live for more than 5 seconds because they aren't tanks."

"DPS don't have survivability yet my Sentinel has the most out of any class/spec including tanks"

"Marauders/Sentinels are balanced etc. etc."

 

 

Did you read up on that part? He actually said DPS have a lot of problems with survivability and that he runs away from people whenever he gets attacked. He plays the class with the most defensive CDs and defensive utility in the game and plays like this is his first MMO and runs away from people while DPSing on a Sentinel.

 

He's pretty funny man.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[fungihoujo]

Grats Walsh- you were able to compare DPS instants that can't be stopped to 2.5 second casts that will always be interrupted and somehow believe that you're making a logical comparison. I can only imagine the lag you are playing with for your GCDs to be 2.5 seconds long.

 

How about this for something more reasonable?

 

Healer starts to cast something that can crit up to 5k- interrupt lock out. Since there's a second DPS, other heal- lock out. Innervate- stunned. Big heal- interrupt is on short enough CD to always be able to interrupt it. Other heal- actually this one might get off.

 

In the span of maybe 12 seconds against two marauders- who have only used one of their stuns- you've healed about 4k health with lucky crits if you include the HoT. AoE taunt might have been used, and probably a stun or two for the DPS- but now the tank is dry on that, aoe taunt is done, healer and tank are both down about 8-12k even through the taunts, while those two DPS can continue to kill both of them, while keeping the healer interrupt locked, at a rate faster than the healer can even heal one of them.

 

Likely, the healer would be dead by that time anyway.

 

Frankly, one DPS can lock out a healer's big heal and still prevent most other healing- the other DPS can go smack the tank around when they get a taunt on them- thus making there be no damage reduction from the taunt.

 

On top of that- this will only get worse as DPS is scaling faster than healing- so while you have 7k smashes now- you will have 9k smashes with the next tier of gear, while healing might improve by another 2-300 for the big heal.

[Lovia]

I'll take terrible responses for $400 Alex.

 

giggle ;p

[Annex]

Game balance is a very delicate thing.

 

I am not a support class. I am the star.

 

I just summarized, most of your posts!!!

 

In fuller summary:

 

"You all want to be tanks"

No, noone wants that. However we DO want to be able to live long enough to DO SOMETHING.

"You dont understand DPS"

Most people now have multiple alts, many to 50 BM/WH (I know I do...). Do you honestly believe that none of us have DPS alts? Seriously? The main reason I KNOW the sorc/sage class is imba is *BECAUSE* I have a BM/WH jugg. Its blindly obvious when youve played both sides of the coin. Take your own medicine, level a sorc/sage healer to 50 and then come back when you have a valid opinion.

"1 healer should > 1 DPS"

What planet are you from? 90% of the MMO population wants to play DPS. Do you think making healers (already with tanks a vast minority of the players) manifestly worse than a DPS will keep this balanced? Of course not. An already marginalised playstyle will become even more so. If a DPS > a healer why would you EVER bring a healer?????? The ideal situation is stalemate. 1 DPS neutralises 1 healer.

[Annex]

Actually you don't.

 

Guard reduces the incoming damage to the Sorcerer by 50% that is on top of the 30% that can be mitigated through the use of the Tank's taunt.

 

So let us assume a 5,000 damage strike as in your outline above.

 

Reduce that by 30%

 

30% of 5,000 is 1,500 thus the damage is reduced to 3,500 damage. Then apply Guard.

 

That damage is further mitigated by 50%

 

50% of 3,500 is 1,750 damage.

 

So instead of getting hit for 5,000 damage you are in fact being hit for 1,750 damage, which is far more manageable.

 

Actually (as usual) you are wrong and distorting the facts.

 

Guard REDIRECTS damage. It does not negate it.

 

A healer/ tank Duo with the healer taking damage a whopping 5% less damage than before however 50% is REDIRECTED to the tank.

 

If you are going to talk of balanced numbers when viewing a heal tank combo you simply cannot treat them in isolation. Do you seriously think the tank getting hit for 50% of the healer's damage is ignorable?

 

Obviously the healers output now needs to be spread across 2 targets.

 

As usual your myopic and oversimplified view of PvP leads you to an irrelevant conclusion. Heres a though for you, step away from your theorycraft, level a healer to 50 alongside your DPS faceroll and THEN make your comments.

 

You wont have a leg to stand on.

[BurnsTwoThree]

As usual your myopic and oversimplified view of PvP leads you to an irrelevant conclusion. Heres a though for you, step away from your theorycraft, level a healer to 50 alongside your DPS faceroll and THEN make your comments.

 

You wont have a leg to stand on.

 

Watch out, he's going to come back in the thread and say that we're asking to be tanks.

 

This guy makes me want to /facekeyboard so hard.

[Boyana]

Except for Marauders and Sentinels who can chase you wherever and not have a problem defend the node at the same time as they'll just leap cause it's guaranteed to be off CD since they have near 100% uptime on any target they want.

 

 

 

True, so true.

 

Oh, man, if something can piss me off is when they do their 'left--right' dance in front of my healer while I am moving 1meter per minute. Makes me set my computer on fire.

 

I just felt like saying this, not sure why.

[Gibbzter]

 

 

Did you read up on that part? He actually said DPS have a lot of problems with survivability and that he runs away from people whenever he gets attacked. He plays the class with the most defensive CDs and defensive utility in the game and plays like this is his first MMO and runs away from people while DPSing on a Sentinel.

 

He's pretty funny man.

 

 

Hahahaha... oh man you are on the spot. Nothing can change this guy's mind. Walsh has been on these forums for months complaining about how he ( a sent) can't kill any healers. This is the type of player that BW catered to because these players didn't understand or want to learn which cast to interrupt or who to CC. They just want to mindlessly dps without having to think about interrupts. Now he thinks sages/sorcs are fine when they die under 5 seconds and should be forced to rely on a tanks guard to stand a chance.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Gibbzter

[BurnsTwoThree]

True, so true.

 

Oh, man, if something can piss me off is when they do their 'left--right' dance in front of my healer while I am moving 1meter per minute. Makes me set my computer on fire.

 

I just felt like saying this, not sure why.

 

It's their way of pretending that they are good and not playing a class that does significantly too much damage. I just giggle at how bad people like that were pre 1.2. You actually had to be a good Sentinel to solo a healer, but it was beyond impossible for the fanboys who were just beyond excited to dual wield without caring much for playing it properly.

 

It was nice knowing who was good and who was bad at this game. Gave a lot of people their competitive edge, now people are just randomly good because they blindly changed a lot of abilities and numbers that classes can pull.

 

Hahahaha... oh man you are on the spot. Nothing can change this guy's mind. Walsh has been on these forums for months complaining about how he ( a sent) can't kill any healers. This is the type of player that BW catered to because these players didn't understand or want to learn which cast to interrupt or who to CC. They just want to mindlessly dps without having to think about interrupts. Now he thinks sages/sorcs are fine when they die under 5 seconds and should be forced to rely on a tanks guard to stand a chance.

 

Oh I know. The kind of person he comes off as is someone aged 30-45, long time Star Wars fan, but not really any good at anything he does. Was really excited for this game and to play a dual-wield Jedi but ended up not liking it much pre 1.2 as you couldn't be a bad Sentinel the first patch or you wouldn't do any damage. As they got buffed he's still having problems killing anything that doesn't stand still and attack him back; and it would kill his game experience if his class was nerfed as it should be.

 

Healers need to be made viable again so mid-high competitive ranked WZs aren't just monotonous repawn runs for anything that is not an Operative healer.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Boyana]

there is more to it than guard + heal and run away

if your not getting guarded by a tank its because they do not see the green numbers that should be above their head, or they have a healer guarded already. (or they are "noob" tanks)

so ill finish what i said before, a tank and healer who work together... can actually survive against a group of people who are working together...

 

Used to work like this but not now, not anymore. Not in rated. Not with a sorcerer. After last night's Voidstar match I started to think about leveling my sniper or assassin to 50.

I am eating 500k damage and dying xx times. I do have a tank guarding me, pulling away, but last few matches I simply told him to remove it. I was just running back to heal him so he could stay alive and interrupt. The only thing that is fun is playing with my friends. I used to heal because I loved it, now I am there to heal them and only because of them. Also, I am already planning to find a new healer for our rated party because I don't think I will be healing much longer. The moment they are secured is the moment I am saying goodbye to healing. Not worth my time. Game is supposed to be fun. This is a torture.

 

I am not asking for "me winz button" most dps classes have. I am not asking to survive the hord of angry marauders. I am asking to be able to survive ONE (ONE) good dpser. Stun, kite? I have to use 22 damn spells only to die in 30 seconds instad of 5. Better to die faster, faster I will be back to heal those people I couldn't heal while I was running.

[Ntranced]

Seems more people in this thread are talking about tanks than healers. I'd love it if they changed the mechanic for a week so that DPS were only effective if they had a tank guard them. The rivers of DPS tears would a sight to see.

[TheLordMaster]

Seems more people in this thread are talking about tanks than healers. I'd love it if they changed the mechanic for a week so that DPS were only effective if they had a tank guard them. The rivers of DPS tears would a sight to see.

 

This would be a sight to behold.

[ProfessorWalsh]

The first clue that we have bad healers in here are the ones who only respond with insults rather than addressing anything that has been said. You can easily see who they are as they spend every post trying to insult others. There are actually only two, or three of them, but they keep shotgunning posts trying to hope that BioWare will cave to them.

 

My statements on Tank and Healer synergy are 100% true and those of us who play with real PVP'ers have seen it many times.

[ProfessorWalsh]

This would be a sight to behold.

 

A DPS without a Healer backing him up lives for about 6 seconds against a good team and that is providing they had Guarded by the Force up.

[Arkerus]

I actively and strongly believe that healers have nowhere near as much utility as they should have.

A Sad Reality

Here's the issue. We have Ranked PvP now, and the game play has switched from forced casual to competitive. What we were given was PvP that was balanced around casual players queuing up for Random Warzones getting grouped up with Random players some of which are geared, and others who are not. The same thing could be said for the skill level of players. Most of the time you would not go against two pre-made groups at the same time while being put on a team with two pre-mades. With the amount of damage that most spec/class combinations have healers are severely gimped (from nerfs and lack of buffs to the non-sorc healing classes). What we're (healers with a decent amount of competence) seeing is that healers cannot put out numbers or be utilized in a way that makes them useful in Ranked Warzones. Healers were completely taken out of the equation (but not completely useless) with 2 geared/skilled DPS on them pre-1.2 but post 1.2 one DPS with the same gear/skill level can take a single healer out of the equation without leaving them much room to be useful to your seven other team mates.

 

Current Situation

What healers are as of right now are meat shields so that DPS can stay alive and watch objectives. This game has way too many CC's and way too many classes that can hit for 20-30%~ of a healers health pool for the weak, resource intensive and slow casting heals that are given to us. Sentinels alone can interrupt 3-4 casts in a row without intervention of a friendly DPS. Getting away from a DPS is not possible like it used to be as casting Force Slow on someone is a valuable waste of a GCD that usually is negated by one of the many CC abilities that DPS classes have.

 

Playing objectives should be a huge indication of whether a healer is good or not, similar to if a DPS can

CC correctly, play the objectives and kill healers. But healers cannot waste the GCD's to help DPS keep people off of nodes and rarely can free cast on a ball carrier if need be. Not to say that a player can NEVER do the things that should define them as someone above exceptional but we're so severely weak and squishy that it has been made near impossible to do it well. Healers SHOULD NOT REQUIRE GUARD TO LIVE THROUGH 2 PEOPLE.

 

 

So let's discuss the situation of healers.

 

Sorcerers/Sage need more survivability, better heals and more utility. Something along the lines of a binding heal would be nice.

 

Smugglers/Ops need a lot more utility in the way of being able to get away from DPS, I'd also like to see a better AoE heal.

 

Commando/Merc Healing needs a resource reduction and defensive CDs for the rest of the group. They should be the Holy Paladins of SWTOR. Give them a sacrifice, give them something that reduces/immune movement impairing effects.

 

All in all I do not see healers being able to compete against War Hero geared groups with coordinated DPS. Peels and CC isn't enough to keep healers from slaughtered.

 

I think it's amazing that healers believe they are not supposed to die in pvp, that they are supposed to be some until unkillable healing machine able to tank at least one dps and heal others. If you are focused in pvp, you will die. If you have at least a dps on you, you will be interrupted as long as their interrupt is up.

 

Problem for dps is that they are killed the moment they go after the healer. If that is happening your team is doing their job.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Arkerus

[Annex]

I think it's amazing that healers believe they are not supposed to die in pvp, that they are supposed to be some until unkillable healing machine able to tank at least one dps and heal others. If you are focused in pvp, you will die. If you have at least a dps on you, you will be interrupted as long as their interrupt is up.

 

Problem for dps is that they are killed the moment they go after the healer. If that is happening your team is doing their job.

 

How is that remotely what he said? Ofc healers should die (and do, a lot...), but their survivability should be somewhere between tank and DPS.

 

Currently they are the absolute least survivable in PvP.

 

Explain why currently DPS classes have the best df cds? Yep. Thanks.

[Annex]

The first clue that we have bad healers in here are the ones who only respond with insults rather than addressing anything that has been said. You can easily see who they are as they spend every post trying to insult others. There are actually only two, or three of them, but they keep shotgunning posts trying to hope that BioWare will cave to them.

 

My statements on Tank and Healer synergy are 100% true and those of us who play with real PVP'ers have seen it many times.

 

Keep dodging those points and selective reading. Its very impressive.

 

The principle "bad" in this thread is you. Proven time and time again. Every "fact" you post is dressed so heavily in bias to render it moot. Your situational analysis is always concieved with circular logic with the preconcieved aim of backing up your point.

 

Thats not "fact", thats politics.

 

Go away.

[fungihoujo]

Seems more people in this thread are talking about tanks than healers. I'd love it if they changed the mechanic for a week so that DPS were only effective if they had a tank guard them. The rivers of DPS tears would a sight to see.

 

^ This right here- the moment you suggest a DPS needs another player to even get kills and DPS are up in arms. But they'll in the same breath say a healer needs to always have a tank attached at the hip- not to be able to heal (because until guard gives some CC/interrupt protection it doesn't do that) but just to survive for a few seconds longer.

[fungihoujo]

The first clue that we have bad healers in here are the ones who only respond with insults rather than addressing anything that has been said. You can easily see who they are as they spend every post trying to insult others. There are actually only two, or three of them, but they keep shotgunning posts trying to hope that BioWare will cave to them.

 

My statements on Tank and Healer synergy are 100% true and those of us who play with real PVP'ers have seen it many times.

 

Dude, we gave you dozens of posts full of information. To which you respond every time 'You guys just wanna be tanks!'.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Sireene
rude

[fungihoujo]

A DPS without a Healer backing him up lives for about 6 seconds against a good team and that is providing they had Guarded by the Force up.

 

Considering that's 1 second after immunity- you're saying that everyone else lasts 1 second in combat since they don't have that 5 second immunity.

 

Yet, you do not want TTK rolled back at all, or healing improved... in a game where you're saying the TTK lasts 1 second.

 

Also, smooth on the versus a team- it's good to know you're still holding up that a sentinel should be viable against a whole team while also holding that a healer should be fodder for a single player to just tear through.

 

No, you definitely aren't an unbiased DPS.

[fungihoujo]

I think it's amazing that healers believe they are not supposed to die in pvp, that they are supposed to be some until unkillable healing machine able to tank at least one dps and heal others. If you are focused in pvp, you will die. If you have at least a dps on you, you will be interrupted as long as their interrupt is up.

 

Problem for dps is that they are killed the moment they go after the healer. If that is happening your team is doing their job.

 

Is there something in the water? Seriously, where have the marauder supporting healer haters who actually read the post before going 'durr you wnat 2 be tnak' go?

 

Sorry, but nobody is saying a healer should die under focus fire- but unlike you and the prof, everyone else has been under the impression since, oh, mmos began that being focused DID NOT MEAN HAVING A SINGLE SENTINEL ON YOU.

 

Grats on having BW believe that you should be a one man army?

[JayPres]

I actively and strongly believe that healers have nowhere near as much utility as they should have.

A Sad Reality

Here's the issue. We have Ranked PvP now, and the game play has switched from forced casual to competitive. What we were given was PvP that was balanced around casual players queuing up for Random Warzones getting grouped up with Random players some of which are geared, and others who are not. The same thing could be said for the skill level of players. Most of the time you would not go against two pre-made groups at the same time while being put on a team with two pre-mades. With the amount of damage that most spec/class combinations have healers are severely gimped (from nerfs and lack of buffs to the non-sorc healing classes). What we're (healers with a decent amount of competence) seeing is that healers cannot put out numbers or be utilized in a way that makes them useful in Ranked Warzones. Healers were completely taken out of the equation (but not completely useless) with 2 geared/skilled DPS on them pre-1.2 but post 1.2 one DPS with the same gear/skill level can take a single healer out of the equation without leaving them much room to be useful to your seven other team mates.

 

Current Situation

What healers are as of right now are meat shields so that DPS can stay alive and watch objectives. This game has way too many CC's and way too many classes that can hit for 20-30%~ of a healers health pool for the weak, resource intensive and slow casting heals that are given to us. Sentinels alone can interrupt 3-4 casts in a row without intervention of a friendly DPS. Getting away from a DPS is not possible like it used to be as casting Force Slow on someone is a valuable waste of a GCD that usually is negated by one of the many CC abilities that DPS classes have.

 

Playing objectives should be a huge indication of whether a healer is good or not, similar to if a DPS can

CC correctly, play the objectives and kill healers. But healers cannot waste the GCD's to help DPS keep people off of nodes and rarely can free cast on a ball carrier if need be. Not to say that a player can NEVER do the things that should define them as someone above exceptional but we're so severely weak and squishy that it has been made near impossible to do it well. Healers SHOULD NOT REQUIRE GUARD TO LIVE THROUGH 2 PEOPLE.

 

 

So let's discuss the situation of healers.

 

Sorcerers/Sage need more survivability, better heals and more utility. Something along the lines of a binding heal would be nice.

 

Smugglers/Ops need a lot more utility in the way of being able to get away from DPS, I'd also like to see a better AoE heal.

 

Commando/Merc Healing needs a resource reduction and defensive CDs for the rest of the group. They should be the Holy Paladins of SWTOR. Give them a sacrifice, give them something that reduces/immune movement impairing effects.

 

All in all I do not see healers being able to compete against War Hero geared groups with coordinated DPS. Peels and CC isn't enough to keep healers from slaughtered.

 

nope.

[Jakoby]

Sorcerers/Sage need more survivability, better heals and more utility. Something along the lines of a binding heal would be nice.

 

Agreed.

 

Smugglers/Ops need a lot more utility in the way of being able to get away from DPS, I'd also like to see a better AoE heal.

 

No way! They already are dam im posible to kill even with two on them and giving them an AOE would take away the ONLY advantage sage healers have on them. They also have the best CC's in the game. If anything they need a bit of "balancing on the healing side."

 

Commando/Merc Healing needs a resource reduction and defensive CDs for the rest of the group. They should be the Holy Paladins of SWTOR. Give them a sacrifice, give them something that reduces/immune movement impairing effects.

Agreed.

 

All in all I do not see healers being able to compete against War Hero geared groups with coordinated DPS. Peels and CC isn't enough to keep healers from slaughtered.

[fungihoujo]

You are the person crying for healer easy mode so I'd watch your own self. You don't even know how guard mechanics work.

 

Fungi, you won't see me reply to you again. I am done with you. You have to be the worst healer I have ever seen and you have no idea how PVP mechanics work at all. You are nothing but a troll who has dedicated your life to getting Sentinels nerfed. You lie blatantly in every post you make such as when you once claimed that people were hitting 10,000 damage with Master Strike.

 

BioWare isn't falling for your lies and neither is anyone else in this thread.

 

Being able to survive 5+ seconds against DPS is crying for easy mode. Actually, you just said that the TTK is one second without a 5 second immunity. So asking to survive more than 1 second is crying for EZ mode.

 

Sure thing.

 

This isn't even about sentinels- this is about healing, and TTK.

 

Furthermore- I am the one who has posted numerous times to correct your false information, who has posted ability descriptions that actually match what they are in game, and has posted something other than 'you just want to be tanks!' for the last thirty pages.

 

It's funny how you spent years before the game came out talking about how horribly BW's decision making is on just about every single matter from jedi to lore to marketing to balance to cinematics- but now that BW has boosted your class above every other they are your best friend and you are willing to say 'BW says so and thus it is true'.

 

You are constantly being hypocritical, you are everything you yourself made a thread telling people not to be when it comes to forum etiquette, you are two faced and duplicitous, you are unaware of any of the changes, you are invested completely in your own frame of mind and will not budge an inch no matter what logic or information comes across your path- and frankly I am happy you will never respond to me again because you are now also a broken record who has nothing new to say.

[Annex]

I'll go away when your side of the argument stops lying about how hard you have it.

 

There is only one abuser of truth in this thread. You.

 

Counter the arguments with realistic, unbiased situations and you will be worth listening to. Until then youre either a troll or a very bad player trying in vain to preserve an unfair advantage to use as a crutch.

 

What are your arguments?:

 

• I find Healer hard to kill therefore they are fine
  Judging a class on your own inability to play is probably not a great plan. You have no experience of playing a healer so your opinion is frankly moot. I can kill any sorc/sage healer easily on my jugg, frankly (as i hit them for 5k+ with insta casts as I watch them try and channel a nice 2.5s spell that heals for a mighty 5k on crit) its not hard. Howcome you can't? Look in the mirror. You are the weakest link!
   
  
• You all want to be tanks!!!one
  Not thinking we should be a free kill for any faceroll DPS =/= wanting to be a tank. Is it that hard to understand? Currently the best mitgation in the game is held by DPS classes. How can that possibly be right?
   
  
• You are all bad and need to L2P derp
  If we are so bad then how come most of us are significantly better on alts/other classes? Magic? This is why you fail. You have such a limited, one dimensional experience of PvP in this game that you are simply not qualified (ironically for the self styled professor) to comment. I know personally that (despite having 10 years of PvP healing experience in multiple games and winning multiple tournaments) I am more effective in swtor on my MDPS than my healer. Despite traditionally being a self admmited "bad" melee player. Somehow now am magically good at MPDS and rubbish at healing? Really? What is the likely reason for that? Please prof teach us.
   
  
• You have loads of def cds already
  According to you everything we have is a def cd. FL has a slow attached therefore is a def CD!!! Face it the best def cd we have is the respawn button. Full heal with 0cd! Opd!!!! Obviously ignore the fact that 1/ our "def cds" (ie bubble) dont scale at all and 2/ Theyre all total junk anyway compared to what many dps classes get.
   
  
• WE has to be in melee rangeS!!!! We needs op cos yu have many range!
  You have multiple 10m skills, all melee classes have some. On top of that you have a massive arsenal of gap mitigators and gap closers. Melee range in this game is NOT the massive issue it is in other games. Dont tell me it is, i have NO issues chasing down a kiter on my jugg, 2 charges, spammable root ontop of normal cc is total easy mode.
  

 

I actually play melee DPS and heal. I have an experienced position. You do not. You just have an axe to grind as for some reason you think you're entitled to beat other players with little/no effort.

 

Sorc/Sage healers are BRUTALLY underpowered atm. You can't hide it and your malformed "proof" (lol) is fooling noone.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Annex