Post 1.3 Vanguard Tank. Your Thoughts?

[Philosomanic]

Many players already parsed in depth and from multiple sources and posted thier results on PTS board prior to patch it is close to a 18 to 20% drop in single target dps. If you have parses that refute the info already documented by multiple sources then post it otherwise all your doing is what your post mentions guessing and estimateing on the changes.

 

Okay, our single-target damage was dropped by exactly one thing: the nerf to stockstrike. Nothing else changed. So if people have been seeing a 20% drop in DPS, then that would mean one of three things:

1. Stockstrike made up 80% of their pre-1.3 damage.
   
2. Stockstrike was nerfed down to 20% of its pre-1.3 damage.
   
3. Some outside factor (gear changes, different armors on the target, poor rotation management, etc) was affecting the parses.
   

 

 

Numbers 1 and 2 are clearly ridiculous. That leaves number 3 as the only logical conclusion.

 

As someone who actually tested on PTS, I'll also mention that for a while Ion Cell was bugged so that it didn't scale with stats, meaning it did far, far less damage than it's supposed to. That could be the cause of those parses.

 

 

Anyways, I have hard math, whereas you only have a nebulous "other people said".

[Zbus]

Okay, our single-target damage was dropped by exactly one thing: the nerf to stockstrike. Nothing else changed. So if people have been seeing a 20% drop in DPS, then that would mean one of three things:

1. Stockstrike made up 80% of their pre-1.3 damage.
   
2. Stockstrike was nerfed down to 20% of its pre-1.3 damage.
   
3. Some outside factor (gear changes, different armors on the target, poor rotation management, etc) was affecting the parses.
   

 

 

Numbers 1 and 2 are clearly ridiculous. That leaves number 3 as the only logical conclusion.

 

As someone who actually tested on PTS, I'll also mention that for a while Ion Cell was bugged so that it didn't scale with stats, meaning it did far, far less damage than it's supposed to. That could be the cause of those parses.

 

 

Anyways, I have hard math, whereas you only have a nebulous "other people said".

 

Then show the parses and math disproveing what was posted and tested on PTS by multiple sources. That simple really.

Just because someone points out that you have not posted any parses or math disproveing what is already been tested on the PTS at length and by multiple sources is no reason to get snotty with me on the subject. Im just letting the other readers know that your conclusions on the topic do not agree with what others have stated on the subject. Hence they should take your claims of way less than a 18-20% nerf to single target damage with a grain of salt.

By the way had you been on PTS you should have seen the posts I'm refering to and could have posted your findings thier to debunk them. Not come on here makeing vague claims with no support backing them up.

 

This is one of the vidos backing up the claims not my claims mind you but the posters on PTS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TKqkOWZVWY

Edited June 30, 2012 by Zbus

[HeavensTerror]

My first game back as SS and I go +200k on both dmg and protects.

 

I have to play some more, but so far I don't have a problem.

[Chazcon]

Big Iron Fist fan, that was one great spec, not a DPS spec really, not a tank spec either, but a great combination of all the things a Vanguard brings to the table. It was technically a hybrid spec but one of the few hybrids that worked and worked very well. I wonder if anyone would have landed on it if Taugrim hadn't figured it out?

 

Doesn't matter now, the devs have said NO loud and clear, either tank or DPS, your choice. I keep respeccing to Assault and then back to IF because I miss the utility of it, but damn there is just no DPS with IF now.

 

Been a PvE tank forever and this was my first foray into PvP in any game. Not sure how tanking in a WZ even works, I know how to tank in PvE but it's a different world. Might go Supercommando and try it all out.

 

Back to Assault spec (great DPS, great fun) but I miss Iron Fist and having a hard time moving on...

[taugrimtaugrim]

yes they were why do you think they nerfed all the hybrids across all classes. they want us to play our roles your a tank guard, dps damage and healers heal. pick a spec and play it.

 

Austin from BW provided context on the changes for 1.3 tanking. The intent was not to "nerf hybrids". Rather the intent was to improve PVE tanking, especially against multiples.

http://www.swtor.com/blog/class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.3

Each major patch is an opportunity to reassess the current status of key combat systems to make sure they’re still working how we expect them to. In Game Update 1.3, one of the major goals was to better normalize single-target and AOE tank threat.

 

It's pretty clear from reading the responses from PVE tanks that the changes have improved their experience. Most of the frustration sounds like it's coming from people who played tank specs in PVP.

[Kframe]

Ok, i have a vanguard, sheild spec. Im not at the lvl were i can pvp yet gear wise. Do i even stand a chance of killing anyone as a sheild spec? I know my job is to "protect" my team mates, but how can i protect anyone if i cant kill anything??

 

Now i run a healer in pvp, and i have great fun at it, so i have no problem sticking to my role, but i want to feel like im actually contributing directly to someones death,not just throwing marshmellows at them..

[Jason_Melnik]

It's not clear enough when you say "i'm a shield spec".

How are you geared? defense gear or dps gear? i'm shield spec with a few points aimed at more pvp useful abilities than super survival. and I run with combat-tech dps PVP gear, for PVP and questing.

In a 1 on 1 I can take on another class with similar gear as my own. Obviously better geared players still destroy me. But guess what, its group pvp and unless the whole team gets destroyed, I am usually in the top 3. So again shield spec+dps gear.

When you can harpoon, kite, then charge away if in trouble whilst taunting,free surging, stunning, rinse repeating, you can keep the strongest players out of destroying your real DPSers for very long periods of time. I showed my friend how to keep 3 top Imp players in the huttball match out of combat for almost a minute. They got so tired of chasing me around corners and etc. that 1 of them tried to leave and I harpooned him back to me! Yes, they killed me, but in that time we scored because they were 3 players down for a minute,while we were 1.

[Chazcon]

Well Assault spec is fun but it's just too squishy, like it always was. If I am joined at the hip to a good healer it can be awesome. But on my own it's rough, it's a race to kill before being killed. That's not my playstyle. I'm not a DPS at heart, I'm a tank.

 

So I went back to Iron Fist (which wasn't hard to do), and ya know, it's working for me still. IF never was a mad killing spec, it's the great combination of things it does that makes it shine. I'm not 100% geared but pretty close and I've switched from Combat Tech 4-pc to Eliminator, which effectively drops the SS nerf even farther but adds 15% crit to HIB. I also lose the Neural Surge duration bonus, so I'm still not sold on this 'modification' to IF yet. I may very well go back to the CT set.

 

Something to remember is that running IF we can take advantage of TWO FREE EXPLOSIVE SURGES every time we use Storm. And, we can equip a total of 14 Augments, that's at lest 6 additional for most people. Noyt earth-shattering but the stats add up. Also there is a minor AOE damage from each HIB, not great but again, every point counts.

 

Anyway I'm still doing the same things I always did with IF, guarding a node and living long enough even with 3-4 rushing me to yell INCOMNG and keeping them at bay until help arrives (survivability), harassing the crap out of healers (CC and interrupts), contributing to the group's damage (DPS). I'd much rather solo someone in IF vs Assault, and I'd sure as heck rather fight 2, 3, or 4 in IF as well. My SS and HIB crits are in the 2300-2800 range, which is nothing to write home about, but I tend to be in the top 5-10 for damage if i am actively fighting in a WZ (vs just guarding a node). I don't think I've ever been higher than 5th. And also the ability to leap and pull is so damn useful in a fight. Personally I tend to identify the healers early and stay in their face the whole fight. In fact I'd rather NOT kill a healer, because then they go respawn and i have to re-acquire them. If I keep them alive I can prevent them from healing and take them out of the fight. It's like a cat with a mouse.

 

Yeah time-to-kill is slower in IF and that gets frustrating. The golden age of Iron Fist was before the Power nerf and the 1.3 nerf. But, it's not dead yet in my opinion. It is interesting that almost every Vanguard has switched over to Assault (or Tactics) in some form, and I think this has become an advantage for the IF spec, because people are surprised when they can't kill me quickly either solo or with a group.

 

So.. still a fan and trying to keep the flame alive, still enjoying Iron Fist.

[AlyxDinas]

I've felt a bit squishier since the change over, even in PvE (and I'm not lacking for gear). Part of that seems to be a result of losing the bonus stockstrike damage, which let me shut down enemy DPS faster. The new HiB mechanic is nice but the area of effect feels pretty narrow and I wonder if the duration could be extended. Granted, I don't know what effect this might have in terms of balance but it seems to me that whatever bonus damage we got from HiB's changes and the Storm/E.Surge change isn't completely balancing out, except in the obvious area of resource management.

 

PvE, it's not too bad. Aggro changes are nice even though I still get some aggro dumps sometimes through being out DPS'd, but that last for about 1-2 seconds before I regain. And for all the talk of feeling squishy, I was still able to tank LI hard mode and other instances well enough even though I do feel like some things are hitting me harder for some reason. Need a bit more testing in this area to figure out what the major change appears to be. Nothing major but something feels a bit different and I can't help but think that the loss of S.Strike's viability in my rotation (Ion Pulse general has a more reliable crit rate and damage on crit, except for the rare occasions when S.Strike breaks 2k damage) might have something to do with this insofar as it affected the length of a fight.

 

PvP, I've resisted going full Supercommando, which some might seem as incredibly foolish but all I've done is retain enough C.Tech for the bonuses and the minor offensive stat boosts therein which supplement non essential slots with S.commando. I can still play a pretty mobile guard and my AoE capacity, along with talents to reduce CC's have made me into a pretty functional "on the outskirts" type of fighter. I can toss guard on whoever needs it, control enemy positioning and generally harass my opponents well enough. Obviously, I'm not as tanky as someone who's rolling a spec with more points in the tree and full Supercommando gear but I'm finding this to be a fair compromise between the benefits of a tank and whatever sacrifices I make A) seem worth it for the addition of some extra output and B) tend to be things I can counteract with augments now.

 

Also, I realized that I missed this post.

 

How is that silly for a tank? Tanks aren't DPS and shouldn't be relying on DPS like that from the old SS to tank. 1 vs 1 DPS is the point in the other two specializations. AOE dmg that Shields got was designed to make tanking easier on groups of mobs and it has a boost to threat in it that greatly improves the tree's intended purpose...tanking. Doesn't seem silly at all...in fact it makes perfect sense.

 

Mostly because that additional offensive power was actually beneficial to our defensive role. It let us shutdown sources of incoming damage faster. In PvP, for instance, it had a great deal of utility if used correctly. That's not to say the new mechanics don't have PvP usage. They're just somewhat lacking intuitiveness in execution. Remember, changes to a tree affect that tree in all areas of the game. As outlined above, I can generally feel the effect of the bonus damage nerf even in PvE to some degree. Sure, I retain threat but I also lost out on a critical part of my rotation which was meant to shutdown damage sources.

Edited July 2, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Philosomanic]

...the loss of S.Strike's viability in my rotation (Ion Pulse general has a more reliable crit rate and damage on crit, except for the rare occasions when S.Strike breaks 2k damage)

 

Yeah, I'm not so sure you should be taking Stockstrike out of your rotation. It's still a high-damage skill, especially when you factor in the extra ~200 from auto-proc Ion Cell. It's dropped below HiB in priority now (because of the bonus threat on HiB), but it's still up there and I use it pretty much on cooldown.

 

 

Also, guys, I discovered something awesome! Now that we have another 33% threat, we can actually tank at range now. I ran KP HM with my guild on Saturday, and I tanked Sorno using only skills that have a 30m range. I kept my single-target taunt on rotation (I like to save Sonic Round for emergencies), and then used this priority list:

• Harpoon
  
• Hammer Shot (<9 Ammo)
  
• High Impact Bolt
  
• Full Auto
  
• Sticky Grenade
  
• Hammer Shot
  

 

I led with Harpoon, then did Full Auto -> Hammer Shot, taunted, and never had issues the whole fight. I need to find a fight where it's actually good to tank from range so I can show off my leet skills ^^. Vanguard tanks are the best!

 

I'm going to do a threat parse against an ops dummy and see how much TPS I can pull. I'm betting it was right on the edge of the DPS pulling for the first bit of the fight until taunts start to stack up. Also, I remember reading a post somewhere detailing the different threat mechanics for melee versus ranged. Is that still valid? Can anyone link it?

[AlyxDinas]

Yeah, I'm not so sure you should be taking Stockstrike out of your rotation.

 

Oh, I haven't. I can still get fair crits on it from time to time and the fact that it procs Ion Cell is important. It just, as you said, has shifted in priority downwards while HiB (especially now that I've talented it whereas before, I really hadn't) moves upwards. But Stockstrike's big thing before now, for me, was that it was pretty much an ad hoc execute in the right circumstances. Can't really use it like that anymore. It just stays in the rotation to supplement other damages and to keep my DoT going. It's still important for keeping up continual pressure.

Edited July 2, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[CKonne]

That's actually not your job at all. It's a DPS player's job to burn down high-defense targets. Your job is primarily to defend your team with every tool you have (guard, taunts, debuffs, cc, pulls/roots), and then to apply pressure as best you can.

 

In fact, if you really have spent minutes beating on enemy healers, then you were being a truly horrible tank, and dead weight dragging your team down. That's time where you contributed essentially nothing to your team. You should have been defending your team, especially the healers, and applying AoE pressure.

 

If you want to be able to kill people solo, that's great. Play a Tactics or Assault Vanguard, and you'll do an awesome job at that role. Assault/Tactics is designed to be able to burn down enemies 1v1, and we're especially good at high defense targets thanks to all the internal/elemental damage. However, that is not the job for a tank Vanguard.

 

 

Stop trying to hammer the square peg into the round hole. It's not going to work, and it's not supposed to work. Either switch to the square hole (defend your team) or get a round peg (Assault/Tactics).

 

 

if he's been beating on a healer for minutes then the healer cant heal therfore he is doing a good job, this is not a horrible tank

[Quahuu]

@ Taugrim thx for IF. I don't ever post so want to show my appreciation.

 

Also some questions to follow for the pvp vanguards out there.

I am a full war hero vanguard and been running "if" spec from day 1 of turning 50. Same as every one else I felt my dps have been lacking since 1.3. Prior to 1.3 I can pretty much solo most classes except for them geared *** sentinels :-). I want to continue running If because I feel like its pretty balance in surviving and decent amount in dps especially in huttball where tanking vanguard just rocking ***** with storming/harpoonings.

 

1. Have any1 make some alteration to iron fist and see some improvement in high end pvp? Or what are u using now replacing IF. I want to be able to tank still because of storm and the lacking of tanking vanguard in my guild.

 

2. What gear set are you using? Right now I am using combat tech with mixture of elim enhancements and mods to raise my crit to be around 30% crit and 71% surge b4 buffs. Set bonus: still combat tech but been thinking about switching the armoring to SC for 5% more damage while guarding since the stats are the same in armoring. What you guys think about all 3 set bonuses for IF in 1.3? I am running full reflex augs. Is that better than the power/shield augs (i think it's power/shield)?

 

3. Rotation? Care to share some?

In 1v1: I usually blow crit/surge ability first then storm, hib, stock strike, ion pulse to reduce 5% of their damage then sticky grenade. Depends if they blow their offense cd or not I usually blind and try to keep distance with melee until he calm down a little and then storm back into the fight. I usually save cryo grenade for when he blow his biggest offensive cd and for my worst opponent (sentinels) I save it for when he blow that " I will kick your asss and you can't do **** damage to me for 5 sec" ability and see how the fight manifest and change accordingly.

Group scenerios: I usually just storm in to crowd, surge to recduce enemies 5% damage, mass taunts, mass blind Then aoe damage, then look around to my healers to see if he/is in danger then harpoon the the perp . I usually do pretty good peeling and guarding.

 

I am frustrating cuz I die so much nowadays :-( while my dps is not up to par like b4.

[Chazcon]

Then show the parses and math disproveing what was posted and tested on PTS by multiple sources. That simple really....

 

Zbus why don't YOU show parses and math PROVING that there is an 18-20% drop in DPS using IF post 1.3.

 

Because I don't see it. Yes, there is a decrease in DPS that you can feel, from a spec that already was not a high DPS spec.

 

All this talk about IF is dead and OMG someone give me a new spec is ridiculous. First of all the 1.3 changes were not that earth-shattering to the IF spec. Stockstrike lost some CRIT % not actual damage from the skill. So you don't crit as much when using SS in a fight. That is not 18-20% of your overall damage.

 

But also we gained additional DPS in the 2 free Explosive Surges and a slight increase in overall DPS with the HIB 'splatter'. The ES freebies allow you to get more DPS out of a given ammo pool which means more overall up-front burst. Not a lot mind you, but every bit counts.

 

Don't forget we now have 14 Augments to play with (although so does everyone else so that's a wash).

 

IF never was a killer DPS spec like <insert your choice of a> Assault spec. It's strength lies in the great combination of abilities, the 6s interrupt, the Gut bleed, Storm that gives you great mobility, extended duaration of Neural Surge with the 4-pc Combat Tech set, survivavbility from your Ion Cell, shield, and Ion Pulse, and mid-range DPS off your Stockstrike and HIB. This is on top of CC from Cyro, Storm, Harpoon (already mentioned Neural Surge).

 

Anyway still running IF cause I can't stand the squishiness of Assault, fun that it is in short bursts. Experimenting with different gear sets with IF but still loving the spec post 1.3.

[Quahuu]

I love playing IF vanguard, most fun vanguard spec IMO ( I tried them all but just with combat tech gears). Try investing in an eliminator generator too. I switch to it some when i am know I am going in 1v1 scenerios. Also I am biochem so I hot keyed all the stims so I can swap it around in the midst of battle. I usually open fight with fortitude stim for more defense and hp then when the extra hp runs out and I got them in a cryo grenade I swap to reflex for little extra burst when needed then try to switch it back to fortitude b4 he bursts. Edited July 4, 2012 by Quahuu

[Jaigen]

if he's been beating on a healer for minutes then the healer cant heal therfore he is doing a good job, this is not a horrible tank

 

Correction! its a horrible team. Dps should be on the healers asap while the tank either protects the dps or the healers.

[Zbus]

Zbus why don't YOU show parses and math PROVING that there is an 18-20% drop in DPS using IF post 1.3.

 

Because I don't see it. Yes, there is a decrease in DPS that you can feel, from a spec that already was not a high DPS spec.

 

All this talk about IF is dead and OMG someone give me a new spec is ridiculous. First of all the 1.3 changes were not that earth-shattering to the IF spec. Stockstrike lost some CRIT % not actual damage from the skill. So you don't crit as much when using SS in a fight. That is not 18-20% of your overall damage.

 

But also we gained additional DPS in the 2 free Explosive Surges and a slight increase in overall DPS with the HIB 'splatter'. The ES freebies allow you to get more DPS out of a given ammo pool which means more overall up-front burst. Not a lot mind you, but every bit counts.

 

Don't forget we now have 14 Augments to play with (although so does everyone else so that's a wash).

 

IF never was a killer DPS spec like <insert your choice of a> Assault spec. It's strength lies in the great combination of abilities, the 6s interrupt, the Gut bleed, Storm that gives you great mobility, extended duaration of Neural Surge with the 4-pc Combat Tech set, survivavbility from your Ion Cell, shield, and Ion Pulse, and mid-range DPS off your Stockstrike and HIB. This is on top of CC from Cyro, Storm, Harpoon (already mentioned Neural Surge).

 

Anyway still running IF cause I can't stand the squishiness of Assault, fun that it is in short bursts. Experimenting with different gear sets with IF but still loving the spec post 1.3.

 

Since I did not make the claim myself I feel no need to parse and post it to prove someone elses work. I just pointed out that on multiple threads pre patch on the PTS the information provided did not match what was being said in this thread. No reason to get snotty with me on the subject im not claiming anything new that had not already been posted on in depth on the PTS. Dont blame me if you did not read any of it. But to make clear the point the posters on PTS pointed at was single target DPS not the craptastic AOE damge they gave us to replace it. You really dont need a parse to see the diffrence between the two. Anyway Im happy your happy with your AOE craptastic damage so keep on doing what your doing the rest of us have moved on to more realistic specs that can do stuff like kill someone in pvp.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Zbus

[mrObtuse]

no problem sticking to my role, but i want to feel like im actually contributing directly to someones death,not just throwing marshmellows at them..

 

Best reply. For

 

I do agree however. I got into this game on the ideal of ADVANCED classing- that you'd be well rounded despite your specialty role(s). Every patch the devs drag me further and further from this ideal ;[[[

[Chazcon]

Since I did not make the claim myself I feel no need to .....

 

Just as I figured.

[Zbus]

Just as I figured.

 

Just as you figured what? I pointed to the posts on PTS that had been up a long time 3 threads on this very topic. The longest of which was like 10 plus pages in length and showed parsed info from multiple sources. Again Im sorry you did not take the time to read them but if your trying to make a claim that said posts did not exist then just come out and say so. Im sure many of the players here read the posts on PTS and who knows maybe someone will do you the favor of reposting thier parsed data.