The Dumbing Down of PvP

[Varicite]

It's not that I disagree that PvP in this game should have more complexity going for it; I wholeheartedly mirror your sentiment on that.

 

I just think that the Relic dynamic was lazy and a direct rip-off of WoW's trinket system that really has absolutely no reason for existing in SWTOR, other than to mimic that other game.

 

I think that the complexity shouldn't be added through "click this to get strong" trinkets, because really, that's not very complex.

 

I think it should be through actual abilities (which it looks like they are adding in the future) which can be used against one another, countered, and have to be planned for, etc. Class knowledge, skill, timing, and experience all play a much larger part in that sort of combat exchange.

 

Hitting a Relic is a very flat, one-sided dynamic. It doesn't require your opponent to do anything special other than "onoes, he's glowy, I should move" and it doesn't require anything special from you other than "hey, this thing is off cd, I should hit it to make him die fast". It does NOT require any knowledge of other classes whatsoever, it does not require positioning, or arguably experience (provided you can read a tooltip). The only thing that it does require is timing, and not even much of that. Choosing which Relic/Adrenal to use is just as much of a no-brainer for most classes as when to use it. Especially if you are DPS.

 

I agree w/ the spirit of your post, but I just don't really care that Relic clickies are gone because I feel that it was a poorly thought-out mechanic in the first place.

 

PS) I see now what you meant about the augment slots, and I don't think I was the only one confused. <.< If you mean that crit-crafting should mean something still, I agree there Coming from an Artificer who just had his crit-crafted lightsaber market demolished (and can't even MAKE augment kits), I do get what you mean. I thought you were mad that more people were able to obtain augmented items now, which didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Varicite

[Helig]

I work hard both irl and in game. I'm competitive. I like to win. I want the degree of my efforts to affect my rewards.

 

Whitewashing things, making everything the same - removes any impetus to excel. And when that happens, for me, the game is no longer fun. Obviously from the replies in this thread - I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

I also prefer to win. And knowing that I won not due to an advantage in stats but in my ability to control my character is significantly more gratifying. If I crush someone in Recruit, or half-BM in my fully augmented WH gear, I don't feel like I'm "excelling"... Smashing a skilled and geared Marauder on my Guardian or undergeared Sage, however, is sweet.

 

But to each his own, I guess. A lot of people use cheats in single player games. Some people use hacks in multiplayer games. Others want to maintain their status quo via superior gear...

Edited June 26, 2012 by Helig

[CharterMonkKent]

I work hard both irl and in game. I'm competitive. I like to win. I want the degree of my efforts to affect my rewards.

 

Whitewashing things, making everything the same - removes any impetus to excel. And when that happens, for me, the game is no longer fun. Obviously from the replies in this thread - I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

Yea, different folks, different strokes. I think of this game as fun when I want a night on the couch while my girlfriend naps or am listing to the Brewers play on the radio. I enjoy this game quite a bit (and like you, the competitive aspect is the best) and I have been frustrated at times. Mostly when I'm in a raid and people want to try over and over for 4 hours. boooooring. But, I never understand the anger or personal distress I see from people in game and on these forums. It's a game. I watched a video on youtube of a dude in a 1v1 tournament and it was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. He had his cam on... he was sweating, you could see the stress, for real, stress... and I swear he stopped breathing until his fight was over. "oh my God that was intense" Intense?

 

Anyway, I think people who want to excel will find other ways to do so, which will probably be team work post 1.3

[Seena]

It's not that I disagree that PvP in this game should have more complexity going for it; I wholeheartedly mirror your sentiment on that.

 

I just think that the Relic dynamic was lazy and a direct rip-off of WoW's trinket system that really has absolutely no reason for existing in SWTOR, other than to mimic that other game.

 

I think that the complexity shouldn't be added through "click this to get strong" trinkets, because really, that's not very complex.

 

I think it should be through actual abilities (which it looks like they are adding in the future) which can be used against one another, countered, and have to be planned for, etc. Class knowledge, skill, timing, and experience all play a much larger part in that sort of combat exchange.

 

Hitting a Relic is a very flat, one-sided dynamic. It doesn't require your opponent to do anything special other than "onoes, he's glowy, I should move" and it doesn't require anything special from you other than "hey, this thing is off cd, I should hit it to make him die fast". It does NOT require any knowledge of other classes whatsoever, it does not require positioning, or arguably experience (provided you can read a tooltip). The only thing that it does require is timing, and not even much of that.

 

I agree w/ the spirit of your post, but I just don't really care that Relic clickies are gone because I feel that it was a poorly thought-out mechanic in the first place.

 

 

I get the feeling that your real issue isn't with the relics per se - but that they are somehow related to WoW. I have no such associations or prejudices.

 

And this wasn't just about relics - it is about adrenals also. Fine, people are whining about reusebales? Remove them. But not the use of adrenals entirely.

 

Your points are well taken, and I hope they do continue to evolve PvP into a more dynamic system. But the current changes not only didn't do that -- it did quite the opposite.

[Seena]

 

PS) I see now what you meant about the augment slots, and I don't think I was the only one confused. <.< If you mean that crit-crafting should mean something still, I agree there Coming from an Artificer who just had his crit-crafted lightsaber market demolished (and can't even MAKE augment kits), I do get what you mean. I thought you were mad that more people were able to obtain augmented items now, which didn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

My bad - I wasn't clear. I'm not against the augment system per se, I worded things poorly. My apologies...

[Ballisticbryan]

last time i checked everyone has to deal with this, THE op is making it sound like he is the only one that is being punished for this... Remember there still is abilities like " force potency " that you can activate in game, and the warzone adrenal increases defense , which like high dps, is survivability.. i dont see how having to activate something , all of a sudden puts you in a higher tier of pvp players... i mean not a lot of players did activate relics, but so what that is their loss, i am sure they would of figured it out eventually.

 

i honestly like the change and if EVERYONE claims that there should be more balance in this game, well bioware just did it..

 

No matter what BW does there is always going to be complainers... And it is impossible to make everyone happy,, thats why forums are so entertaining.

[Varicite]

I get the feeling that your real issue isn't with the relics per se - but that they are somehow related to WoW. I have no such associations or prejudices.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have said the W-word, since people will just automatically assume that I have some kind of deep-seated hatred for that game and all things related to it. I don't. I played it for years, like a lot of others here. I met my fiance playing WoW 4 years ago. I don't hate it at all, even if I'm tired of playing it.

 

The ONLY reason I mentioned WoW is because that's why we have Relics. That's the only reason that I can see for it. It's definitely not Star Wars-y. It doesn't make any sense. Like on the level of "why do we have 2 implant slots, but only 1 ear slot.. ALL of these races have 2 ears" kind of not making sense.

 

It's hard to NOT mention WoW when talking about the Relic slot, because y'know.. that's where BW got that from. It's literally in the same place on the character sheet...

Edited June 26, 2012 by Varicite

[StarCard]

Oh no, people will be on even grounds. What will the "real" PvPers do?

 

real pvp'ers put in the time to get their gear... did daddy buy you that corvette?

Edited June 26, 2012 by StarCard

[Seena]

Maybe I shouldn't have said the W-word, since people will just automatically assume that I have some kind of deep-seated hatred for that game and all things related to it. I don't. I played it for years, like a lot of others here. I met my fiance playing WoW 4 years ago. I don't hate it at all, even if I'm tired of playing it.

 

The ONLY reason I mentioned WoW is because that's why we have Relics. That's the only reason that I can see for it. It's definitely not Star Wars-y. It doesn't make any sense. Like on the level of "why do we have 2 implant slots, but only 1 ear slot.. ALL of these races have 2 ears" kind of not making sense.

 

It's hard to NOT mention WoW when talking about the Relic slot, because y'know.. that's where BW got that from. It's literally in the same place on the character sheet...

 

I still think your perspective is tainted by your WoW experience. (Which isn't a bad thing really. It's something we all do..) I look at them like any type of changeable augment.... But then, I didn't give the ear implant much thought either... just figured it was like a bluetooth sorta thing

 

[Varicite]

I still think your perspective is tainted by your WoW experience. (Which isn't a bad thing really. It's something we all do..) I look at them like any type of changeable augment.... But then, I didn't give the ear implant much thought either... just figured it was like a bluetooth sorta thing

 

 

If anything, it's being tainted by my experience in MMOs that don't have the Relic / Trinket slot. : )

 

Or maybe being tainted by fighting game experience, lol.

 

I'm just more drawn to actual combat prowess, attack and counter, etc. While having a few abilities to boost player power or defense is to be expected, I don't think I will ever see these or their removal to be detrimental to the actual "core" of PvP, which is the nitty-gritty of ability interaction between classes / players.

 

For example: You plan for Force Shroud and how to counter it. You plan for Undying Rage. You plan for the big heal. You plan for the interrupt coming. You pretty much NEVER plan for the Relic being used, because even if you do, it doesn't really change anything about the encounter other than certain abilities will now hit harder or softer, depending on the Relic.

[Seena]

If anything, it's being tainted by my experience in MMOs that don't have the Relic / Trinket slot. : )

 

Or maybe being tainted by fighting game experience, lol.

 

I'm just more drawn to actual combat prowess, attack and counter, etc. While having a few abilities to boost player power or defense is to be expected, I don't think I will ever see these or their removal to be detrimental to the actual "core" of PvP, which is the nitty-gritty of ability interaction between classes / players.

 

For example: You plan for Force Shroud and how to counter it. You plan for Undying Rage. You plan for the big heal. You plan for the interrupt coming. You pretty much NEVER plan for the Relic being used, because even if you do, it doesn't really change anything about the encounter other than certain abilities will now hit harder or softer, depending on the Relic.

 

I don't disagree. But we don't have those abilities currently - nor does removing relics and adrenals at this time, in any way, affect that fact.

 

I'm just not seeing your point that you can't counter what the relic does - it's simply a tool that can be used, more intelligently at some times than others, to increase your battle effectiveness.. As are adrenals (again my beef wasn't with JUST relics, or JUST adrenals, or JUST standardizing aug slots). In all this effort seemed to be more about catering to the "I want it but I don't want to work for it" crowd. Kind of like for the last 15-20years we've told every kid they are "special" and "great" and "wonderful" and "the best and the brightest" - when really, they aren't. We aren't all the same. We aren't meant to be, all the same. And in fact, nothing in the PvP system prevented anyone from having what any other player had (without some sacrifice of course.) Sacrifice being the key word here...

Edited June 26, 2012 by Seena

[kitfoxtrot]

Removing an on call ability and therefore the choice to use or not use -> dumbing down.

 

It's the same thing as idiots blowing their stuns on one person 3v1 while defending, I'm sure that same crowd mashes their attack buffs in the same situation. Their poor choice in those situations leaves them at a disadvantage for the next attack wave.

 

I never saw burst damage as a problem, if anything find it necessary trying to cap nodes that are a short speeder ride back to for the defending team (alderaan). If you saw someone needle jab/relic glow- good time to stun/run/los.

 

Biochem did offer an obvious advantage, but if adrenals were more realistic to make (fewer mat requirements on higher level ones) that problem could easily be solved and stimulate the market for biochem sales and people with other crafts would use more often. It literally took me like 9hrs of game time to make a synthweaving friend x20 power adrenals for some craft trading.

 

As for the augmented stuff, it's cool to open up more visually appealing gear choices. But, I'm pretty bummed about higher tier items I wasted time and $ on such as my aug'd rakata relic being utterly worthless now. And I'm sure there are tons more items/people that feel the same way.

[Seena]

Removing an on call ability and therefore the choice to use or not use -> dumbing down.

 

It's the same thing as idiots blowing their stuns on one person 3v1 while defending, I'm sure that same crowd mashes their attack buffs in the same situation. Their poor choice in those situations leaves them at a disadvantage for the next attack wave.

 

I never saw burst damage as a problem, if anything find it necessary trying to cap nodes that are a short speeder ride back to for the defending team (alderaan). If you saw someone needle jab/relic glow- good time to stun/run/los.

 

Biochem did offer an obvious advantage, but if adrenals were more realistic to make (fewer mat requirements on higher level ones) that problem could easily be solved and stimulate the market for biochem sales and people with other crafts would use more often. It literally took me like 9hrs of game time to make a synthweaving friend x20 power adrenals for some craft trading.

 

As for the augmented stuff, it's cool to open up more visually appealing gear choices. But, I'm pretty bummed about higher tier items I wasted time and $ on such as my aug'd rakata relic being utterly worthless now. And I'm sure there are tons more items/people that feel the same way.

 

I agree with every point you've made. And while biochem was the most useful of skills to have in PvP (although the bombs really help with CT) it really is no problem for people to roll other toons to take up other crafting classes.

 

In SWG the buffs that medics could make were a HUGE benefit in PvP. Huge. And in that game you had one char per server- so, I could see people complaining. That just isn't the case in this game. So, if you want to have a different crafting prof, but still have the benefits in PvP - ya make another toon for your artificer/amortech etc. Easy-peasy.. Hell, BW even made it super easy to SWITCH crafting professions if you chose artificing but then decided you really wanted biochem. You want the advantage though? Imo that should come with some sacrifice. Don't want to make the sacrifice? Well, ya don't get the advantage. Doesn't mean you can't still be awesome at PvP. Doesn't mean that you can't still do very well. You just won't have that slight - advantage.

 

I totally agree that they should make the stims/adrenals easier to make, which prolly would have made them cheaper and more available on the GTN. If that were the case - perhaps there wouldn't have been so much ************. (After they made the reuseables equal to the one shot adrenals. Before that - imo there really WAS something to complain about. But not now.)