Who here actually likes Karen Traviss?

[Slowpokeking]

And this is where I stop understanding the KTSWD comments. I can understand hating things (though I personally have no problem with them) like Jaina's apparent weakness when training with them, and killing Mara Jade. However, this goes to the point of "Force users should be completely self-sufficient" I'm sick and tired of the Star Wars attitude that, "Force users are the ultimate power in the galaxy and nothing can ever stop them and they don't need any help from anyone and are instantly wiser than anyone else" I can understand not liking the way it was handled. But protesting against her going in the first place just doesn't click with me. We know Boba was a famous Jedi-Killer. We know that Jacen knew all of Jaina's tactics and methods, and also pretty much anything that involved using the force. Therefore, where was the logical place to go? The best non-force-using Jedi Killer.

 

So Anakin needs to go learn stuff from Durge?

[ProfessorWalsh]

Here's an interesting question for the KTSWD (Karen Traviss Star Wars Dislikers)...do you have a problem with the actual plot of the books, or just the way it was handled by the author? Example:

 

Both.

 

The main problem with the plot points was that they were added specifically to put Mandos in a story that did not need Mandos.

 

Here is the basic plot to Legacy of the Force:

 

Jacen Solo starts walking a line he shouldn't cross, the same line Vergere lead him to. Jacen Solo in arrogance falls to the tricks of Lumiya. Jacen Solo starts becoming more and more radical in his views and actions as he starts out with good intentions but begins to lose control. Jacen Solo falls to the Dark Side and betrays hid friends and families as he plunges the Galaxy into a state of civil war. Jaina Solo fights, and kills, her brother.

 

LotF is all about Jedi. That is all it is about. Mandalorianshad no place and served no sensible purpose. None of the other authors for LotF even wanted Mandos in it.

 

Then there are the individual plot points:

 

1. Why would Jaina Solo go to Mandalorians to learn how to kill a Jedi/Sith? Considering their track record isn't really impressive and all. Specifically why would she go to Boba Fett who couldn't even put up a decent fight against, let alone wound, let along kill, Luke Skywalker in Episode 6 when Luke wasn't even a Jedi Knight yet. Especially since Luke Skywalker defeated Jacen Solo in a duel before Jaina made her decision.

 

2. Why would Luke Skywalker agree to Jaina's plan? Again, he had already beaten Jacen Solo, he would have known that the Mandos had no chance against him.

 

3. Ultimately when the Mandos finally did try to attack Jacen Solo, thankfully due to Troy Denning, they failed miserably and were easily beaten.

 

Literally we have an entire series of books where Jaina Solo goes to learn from people for no reason, who can't teach her much, and who have a less than sparkling track record in the thing she is trying to learn. It is basically what would happen if I went to a Parkour enthusiast to learn how to ride a Unicycle. Sure they can teach me a thing about balance, but an actual unicyclist would have been a better choice.

 

Plot Fact: Jaina goes to Mandalore to learn from Boba Fett how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina learns how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina leaves.

 

Would you have a problem with these facts included in a novel by, say, Allston? Just trying to get a better feel for this.

 

See above.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Answers in bright red.

 

Never quote in red inside someone else's quote. It makes it very hard to reply to you.

 

The POINT of the whole thing is that Jacen has trained with Jaina from birth, multiple "conventional" Jedi have tried to stop him and failed. Jacen not only knows the Jedi from the inside out, but has studied with dozens of other force-using organizations. There's nothing Jaina can learn, no magic force trick that Jacen doesn't know and know how to counter. The only thing he hasn't explored, because of his Jedi Superiority viewpoint, is non-force-using techniques of killing Jedi and Sith. See Mandalorians. Even if you don't believe they kill Jedi, they're still some of the best warriors the galaxy has to offer and their leader has a grudge against Jacen Solo. You couldn't say the same for the Malkite Poisoners, for example.

 

This is incorrect.

 

1. Luke Skywalker, a Jedi, defeated Jacen Solo in a duel in the book before she decided to go to Mandalore.

 

2. Jaina had no reason to know that the Mandalorians had a grudge against Jacen Solo when she decided to do it.

 

3. There is no "Jedi superiority viewpoint" going on with Jacen Solo, no such thing was ever established.

 

4. Jacen Solo didn't train in combat like Jaina Solo did. He became a pacifist before the Vong War and wasn't a front line combatant for the vast majority of it, not only that he left while she stayed and trained to become the Sword of the Jedi.

 

There you've got me. I don't think we've seen him killing a Jedi in a canon work. He has, however, been referenced as successfully hunting Jedi several times. You don't just "acquire" a collection of lightsabers, and I have no reason to disbelieve his reputation.

 

We have every reason to disbelieve his reputation. He doesn't do so well against a not-very-well-trained not-even-Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker for example. He also leaps into melee range with an opponent wielding a lightsaber.

 

We have seen, in canon, that in some markets you can simply buy a lightsaber (See: Star Wars: Young Jedi Knights - Under a Black Sun) off of street vendors.

 

For all we know the only Jedi Boba Fett ever hunted down were untrained Padawans or people claiming to be Jedi, or members of the Jedi Agricorps. We have no reason to believe he ever hunted anything even close to the level of Jacen Solo successfully.

 

So we see that in the movies, we get the absolute cream of the crop, so to speak. What about a skill tier beneath that? You have exceptionally good but not amazing Jedi. Another level below? You probably have your average Jedi, not an invincible guardian of justice, but a person endowed with extraordinary powers keeping the peace. After years of training and honing skills, even the most inept padawan probably makes it to this level.

 

Those people a level below don't become Padawans. Anyone Padawan or higher in rank in the Jedi Order is the equal to Jedi Order Special Operations. Obiwan in Episode II wasn't even a Jedi Master. He's not the cream of the crop. He's actually the two rungs below Jedi you mentioned. Then there are dozens of other Jedi Knights from that time period who are at, or above, Obiwan's level. There are no average Jedi Knights, because anyone who is average doesn't become a Jedi Knight.

 

What is this "other path"? Where else would Jaina have gone? Please give an example.

 

Jaina could have learned to fight with Teras Kasi.

Jaina could have used a Yslamiri to even the battlefield.

Jaina could have done an intensive training montage with Luke Skywalker, being that he had already beaten Jacen Solo.

Jaina could have gone looking for a Force Power Jacen Solo didn't know. (Wall of Light for example.)

Jaina could have focused on trying to redeem her brother.

... I could easily keep going on.

[PanisRahl]

I guess I'm also part of the minority when I say I like books by Karen Traviss. I love the books in themselves and not compared, or connected to the others because it all just gets tangled and messed up and it only ever puts people at odds with each others views (be they following canon, or not). I liked the novels by Traviss for the idea of their being people out there who arent just 'ants' when compared to Jedi, or Sith because if not for the just the 'thought' I'd be rather apprehensive to ever, -EVER- RP my bounty hunter with any force-users in fear of starting some sort of arguement on the basis of why my Hunter should just curl into a ball and die, or submit to the force-user in question because I would stand zero chance. (I know thats not how -all- RPs with those circumstances would go, but you can't say heated debates wouldnt happen between force-user RPers and non-force user RPers if it did.) Also understand that super-mandos and super-force-users are bad, but we should also remember everyone can make mistakes in battle, be they jedi, sith, or mandalorians.

[Allronix]

I find her style a little off-putting sometimes, but I appreciate her for calling out just how wrong the so-called "Grand Army of the Republic" really was, and how the Jedi and Republic became complicit in slavery and worse in the name of fighting the Separatists. I also appreciated it when she pointed out the Separatists had a point - the Republic truly was making questionable bedfellows and allowing a lot of things it shouldn't have.

 

Really, she's like Chris "KOTOR 2" Avellone, although I find her style a bit less obnoxious and in-your-face than a guy who uses Kreia as a mouthpiece to describe the futility of morality and the Force as either dickishly uncaring or downright evil (I'll fully admit that he had a point, though). I appreciate the realism, and the fact she will play up muggle contributions, almost as a counter-argument to David Brin's "war of the demigods" rants.

 

The issue with her hyping the Mandalorians? Ok, think of her as Canderous in drag and it's easier to overlook. Like it or not, if you're writing Mandos, she's your resource. I started reading through her stuff because I write a lot of KOTOR fanfic and wanted to get a better grasp on Canderous, so I could explain why he sticks around on a boatload of Republic sympathizers and Jedi.

 

The whole Mara Jade thing? Well, she's like Salvatore and drew the short straw from the publisher. Neither of them wanted the job of killing off beloved characters, but the suits had made the call.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I guess I'm also part of the minority when I say I like books by Karen Traviss. I love the books in themselves and not compared, or connected to the others because it all just gets tangled and messed up and it only ever puts people at odds with each others views (be they following canon, or not). I liked the novels by Traviss for the idea of their being people out there who arent just 'ants' when compared to Jedi, or Sith because if not for the just the 'thought' I'd be rather apprehensive to ever, -EVER- RP my bounty hunter with any force-users in fear of starting some sort of arguement on the basis of why my Hunter should just curl into a ball and die, or submit to the force-user in question because I would stand zero chance. (I know thats not how -all- RPs with those circumstances would go, but you can't say heated debates wouldnt happen between force-user RPers and non-force user RPers if it did.) Also understand that super-mandos and super-force-users are bad, but we should also remember everyone can make mistakes in battle, be they jedi, sith, or mandalorians.

 

The problem, in RP, is when people start injecting fanon into things.

 

One huge piece of fanon for example is that Troopers are considered a match for the Jedi Knights. Canon-wise they simply aren't. In the game we are specifically told they aren't.

 

 

They created a super soldier program using illegal human augmentation to try to accomplish it and it is stated that "not even that" was able to match a Jedi or a Sith.

 

 

The sad part is that people took one line from the Trooper entry:

 

In the years since the Treaty of Coruscant, the Jedi have withdrawn in significant numbers to their homeworld of Tython. Their presence in the Republic military, though still significant, is not what it was during the war. In many ways, the Republic’s newly-trained elite Troopers have stepped up to take charge of the Republic’s defenses. When Troopers are partnered with the Jedi, they are a force to be reckoned with on any battlefield.

 

Well that is the current line... Originally the line said that they filled the Jedi's shoes or some such... It never meant in combat though, it meant that they took care of defending the Republic while the Jedi were recovering from the horrible losses they suffered during the course of the war. Some people simply got a chip on their shoulder and used it as a jumping point to scream, "Troopers are just as good as a Jedi pound for pound hoo-rah marines!"

 

The same thing with Bounty Hunters. Some people took the boasts of the Mandos and the Karen Traviss novels at face value. They started thinking that in canon Bounty Hunters and Mandalorians are seen as an even match for a Jedi and a Sith. This is characterized by Karen Traviss' comments about there being three edges to a blade (there aren't) that consisted of the Jedi, the SIth, and the Mandalorians... The truth it there are two sides to a blade, Jedi and Sith. The Mandalorians are mighty soldiers, among the best of the best, but they aren't on the same level as Jedi or Sith, not in Star Wars, not in the lore a t least.

[ProfessorWalsh]

The issue with her hyping the Mandalorians? Ok, think of her as Canderous in drag and it's easier to overlook. Like it or not, if you're writing Mandos, she's your resource. I started reading through her stuff because I write a lot of KOTOR fanfic and wanted to get a better grasp on Canderous, so I could explain why he sticks around on a boatload of Republic sympathizers and Jedi.

 

Karen's Mandos have nothing in common with Canderous.

 

The whole Mara Jade thing? Well, she's like Salvatore and drew the short straw from the publisher. Neither of them wanted the job of killing off beloved characters, but the suits had made the call.

 

Incorrect. She insisted that Mara Jade die. The others didn't want to kill her. There was no order from on high that said she had to die. She said it was needed to make the story more dramatic. There was no short straw it was 100% her idea from inception to execution.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I guess I'm also part of the minority when I say I like books by Karen Traviss. I love the books in themselves and not compared, or connected to the others because it all just gets tangled and messed up and it only ever puts people at odds with each others views (be they following canon, or not). I liked the novels by Traviss for the idea of their being people out there who arent just 'ants' when compared to Jedi, or Sith because if not for the just the 'thought' I'd be rather apprehensive to ever, -EVER- RP my bounty hunter with any force-users in fear of starting some sort of arguement on the basis of why my Hunter should just curl into a ball and die, or submit to the force-user in question because I would stand zero chance. (I know thats not how -all- RPs with those circumstances would go, but you can't say heated debates wouldnt happen between force-user RPers and non-force user RPers if it did.) Also understand that super-mandos and super-force-users are bad, but we should also remember everyone can make mistakes in battle, be they jedi, sith, or mandalorians.

 

Problem is before Traviss, the mandos were already excellent warriors. Its not like they just got steamrolled in every encounter that they came across, they were just never completely on par with jedi. They were on a fine level until Traviss came along.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[caesaraugust]

Karen Traviss is a superior author. I do not read anything post Thrawn Trilogy, so all of this inane whining about Mara Jade's death falls on deaf, and honestly, arrogant ears. Everything after Thrawn is utter nonsense. It's a long string of horrible, unexciting, boring stories. Extragalactic invaders. Anakin Skywalker done all over again through Jacen Solo, and all of the other complete bullcrap that second-rate authors pulled out of their aft-ends. They all belong in the same category as Dave Filoni who has essentially ***** the Star Wars mythology.

 

Karen Traviss's post- Jedi works notwithstanding, she's done a phenomenal job with the Republic Commando series, bringing more life and reality to that time period than any other author, especially the backwash that is the collection of "authors" who write post-Jedi novels (James Luceno and Timothy Zhan excluded). So, for everyone whining about Traviss, I suggest you pull your faces out of post-Jedi garbage and begin cultivating a real sense of what good fiction is.

[PanisRahl]

Oh I know they were plenty capable warriors before Traviss. Was only getting at, that after reading them it made me a mando-fan. I do agree on the many points to where Traviss failed at her duty to uphold the Star Wars brand, (Mara death, super mando, etc.) though I must say it was nice to have a different outlook to the galaxy-wide conflicts in the eyes of non-jedi/sith even if it could of been handled better. Came into this thread thinking it was just a lynch-mob, but quite frankly I believe i'm coming out with a different perspective to the whole ordeal about Traviss and her take on SW. Good on ya for not being how I thought some of you would be.

[grandmthethird]

Karen Traviss is a superior author. I do not read anything post Thrawn Trilogy, so all of this inane whining about Mara Jade's death falls on deaf, and honestly, arrogant ears. Everything after Thrawn is utter nonsense. It's a long string of horrible, unexciting, boring stories. Extragalactic invaders. Anakin Skywalker done all over again through Jacen Solo, and all of the other complete bullcrap that second-rate authors pulled out of their aft-ends. They all belong in the same category as Dave Filoni who has essentially ***** the Star Wars mythology.

 

Karen Traviss's post- Jedi works notwithstanding, she's done a phenomenal job with the Republic Commando series, bringing more life and reality to that time period than any other author, especially the backwash that is the collection of "authors" who write post-Jedi novels (James Luceno and Timothy Zhan excluded). So, for everyone whining about Traviss, I suggest you pull your faces out of post-Jedi garbage and begin cultivating a real sense of what good fiction is.

 

holy cow, somebody get this guy a bridge.

 

i'm sure traviss is not as bad as ppl make her out to be (well maybe her none star wars books are ok), i sure won't be looking for her to throw my can of coke over her. but she is quite obviously a bad starwars writer. and maybe you just got lucky, not reading anything after thrawn would mean you missed all the stuff ppl really hate about her.

[Mirdthestrill]

Before I post a long, drawn-out post regarding Walsh's rebuttal, what does everyone think of the RC books? Most of the problems you're bringing up have to do with her LotF novels.

[Brutanic]

Before I post a long, drawn-out post regarding Walsh's rebuttal, what does everyone think of the RC books? Most of the problems you're bringing up have to do with her LotF novels.

 

Her LotF writings are the primary reason why people dont like her.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Brutanic

[Mirdthestrill]

Never quote in red inside someone else's quote. It makes it very hard to reply to you.

 

I'll work on that.

 

*sigh*

 

In the end, I'm not really sure where this is going. As I've said before, we can establish facts like

(1) Traviss responded very negatively to criticism

(2) Many people like her work

(3) Many don't

 

It's all about the perspective we view facts with. I have the perspective that within the Star Wars Universe I believe to make sense, Traviss works fit. In your Star Wars Universe that you believe to make sense, Traviss works do not fit. If we have a fundamental difference in understanding that cannot be rectified by any amount of debate, there's not really any point in continuing this. We've established the facts, now we simply argue over interpretation.

[Captain_Zone]

Here's an interesting question for the KTSWD (Karen Traviss Star Wars Dislikers)...do you have a problem with the actual plot of the books, or just the way it was handled by the author? Example:

 

Plot Fact: Jaina goes to Mandalore to learn from Boba Fett how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina learns how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina leaves.

 

Would you have a problem with these facts included in a novel by, say, Allston? Just trying to get a better feel for this.

 

As far as plots go, no. The way she handles the plots, on the other hand.... Yes, I have problems with her handling of characters and stories.

 

Aaron Allston and Michael Stackpole are two of my favorite authors, and they kept the X-Wing series fun and as realistic as possible. Nobody was too OP in there, except for maybe Wedge and Fel. They were fair to all the characters, though.

[Captain_Zone]

Karen Traviss is a superior author. I do not read anything post Thrawn Trilogy, so all of this inane whining about Mara Jade's death falls on deaf, and honestly, arrogant ears. Everything after Thrawn is utter nonsense. It's a long string of horrible, unexciting, boring stories. Extragalactic invaders. Anakin Skywalker done all over again through Jacen Solo, and all of the other complete bullcrap that second-rate authors pulled out of their aft-ends. They all belong in the same category as Dave Filoni who has essentially ***** the Star Wars mythology.

 

Karen Traviss's post- Jedi works notwithstanding, she's done a phenomenal job with the Republic Commando series, bringing more life and reality to that time period than any other author, especially the backwash that is the collection of "authors" who write post-Jedi novels (James Luceno and Timothy Zhan excluded). So, for everyone whining about Traviss, I suggest you pull your faces out of post-Jedi garbage and begin cultivating a real sense of what good fiction is.

 

So you agree with her "Mandalorian pacifists"? In a culture of warriors where children are trained from birth to fight, very similar to the ancient Spartans, you really think that there would be room for pacifists in that culture? There would be room for them... at the bottom of the chasm below the cliff.

 

I've been fair to her that her non-Star Wars books are actually pretty good. But when it comes to writing Star Wars, she should never have tried.

 

And even her non-Star Wars work is overshadowed by both men and women who write better military fiction, sci-fi, and fantasy than she does.

[Brutanic]

Decided to take down. Edited June 19, 2012 by Brutanic

[Icebergy]

Ah, but there's the rub-out. She set out to kill Mara Jade. She, figuratively speaking, spat in the face of Tim Zahn and all the other members of the ExU writing pool when she did that. From all reports I read, she knew that Tim was working on a new Mara Jade novel, but she never even consulted him. She also ignored or bashed down anyone who protested what she was doing.

 

The long and short is, she is NOT a team player. She made arbitrary decisions on what SHE wanted to do, and The Force help anyone who said anything different. As I said before, the real world fiction story I read of hers was good. She just can't write Star Wars with her attitude. Imo, she should never have been hired by LL in the first place.

 

What a horrible person. So glad she was fired, I hope no one ever lets her write anything ever again.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Icebergy

[CassusVerda]

What a horrible person. So glad she was fired, I hope no one ever lets her write anything ever again.

 

nah.....343 Studios Hired her to write for Halo universe....which was a bad idea in my opinion....not because of what she did, but because she's replacing ERIC NYLUND....Who that is you ask? Basically what Timothy Zahn is to Star Wars, Eric Nylund is to the Halo Series small number of books. So....it really pisses me off.

[Captain_Zone]

nah.....343 Studios Hired her to write for Halo universe....which was a bad idea in my opinion....not because of what she did, but because she's replacing ERIC NYLUND....Who that is you ask? Basically what Timothy Zahn is to Star Wars, Eric Nylund is to the Halo Series small number of books. So....it really pisses me off.

 

Well, as OP as the SPARTANS already are, she'll make them even more godly. And then she'll make up another language.

 

Compared to the likes of Clancy, Marcinko, Drake, Gentle, etc. she's just ok. She's slightly better than average, but she doesn't compare to the Big Guns in the military fiction/ sci-fi/ fantasy genres.

[Mirdthestrill]

So you agree with her "Mandalorian pacifists"? In a culture of warriors where children are trained from birth to fight, very similar to the ancient Spartans, you really think that there would be room for pacifists in that culture? There would be room for them... at the bottom of the chasm below the cliff.

 

I've been fair to her that her non-Star Wars books are actually pretty good. But when it comes to writing Star Wars, she should never have tried.

 

And even her non-Star Wars work is overshadowed by both men and women who write better military fiction, sci-fi, and fantasy than she does.

 

Mandalorian Pacifists? Where are you getting that? I think you're confusing Clone Wars with Republic Commando.

[Captain_Zone]

Mandalorian Pacifists? Where are you getting that? I think you're confusing Clone Wars with Republic Commando.

 

Weren't those the episodes that she wrote? I may have her mixed up with someone else, but I remember hearing her name mentioned as the writer for those episodes.

[CassusVerda]

Well, as OP as the SPARTANS already are, she'll make them even more godly. And then she'll make up another language.

 

Compared to the likes of Clancy, Marcinko, Drake, Gentle, etc. she's just ok. She's slightly better than average, but she doesn't compare to the Big Guns in the military fiction/ sci-fi/ fantasy genres.

 

Which is why I hate that she is replacing ERIC NYLUND....who is a better author in the genre. To a Halo Fan like me, it's like her replacing Timothy Zahn on one of his series.

[Captain_Zone]

Which is why I hate that she is replacing ERIC NYLUND....who is a better author in the genre. To a Halo Fan like me, it's like her replacing Timothy Zahn on one of his series.

 

Personally, I'd like to see David Drake take over running the Mandalorians in Star Wars. The man knows how to write good stuff.

 

And I agree about Tim Zahn. The guy is a national treasure, as far as getting people interested in Star Wars again after so many years of meh from Lucas.

 

EDIT: For a great example of Drake's work, the "Hammer's Slammers" military sci-fi series is outstanding.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[DaWaffle]

I very much liked the first "Republic Commando" novel. Took everyone's advice and didn't read any of her other work.