Who here actually likes Karen Traviss?

[zoem]

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt she the author who writes novels for Gears of War books??

[CassusVerda]

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt she the author who writes novels for Gears of War books??

 

Yep...and she is also taking over Eric Nylund's Story-line for the Halo Novels coinciding with Halo 4's Backstory starting with Halo: Glasslands.

[Invictos]

I tend to think that Traviss was more lazy than she was malicious. She certainly became spiteful as time passed, but I can't say with any degree of certainty when (or to what extent) her public diatribes crossed the line from (albeit unprofessional and ill-advised) self-therapeutic venting, over to genuine, heartfelt acrimony. To this day, I'm unsure whether her Jedi-supporters-must-be-nazis essay is real or a giant troll.

 

In retrospect, I think her novels revolved around Mandalorians because she had invested in, even partially invented, the Mandalorian culture -- and because she couldn't be bothered to learn much else about the SW universe, she ran with what she had. We know from her own statements that she doesn't read fiction, not even materiel related to her own work. We also know that she prided herself on working fast; we know that she deliberately exhausted herself because she felt that exhaustion made her more creative (and although she may be right about that, it's also nearly certain that exhaustion makes an author less thorough and/or polished).

 

In short, she pulled the same trick that smart-alec slackers in school pull all the time: they latch onto (and over-use) a few, abstruse factoids to make them look well-versed in the material, but on the whole they're clueless. That's how we end up with Luke Skywalker thinking in the Mandolorian language, for instance, or Ben Skywalker reverently referring to Mandalorian custom and technique; Traviss is trying too hard to inject authentic-sounding bits of SW culture into her fiction to make herself look competent. The problem is that she only knows about one culture -- a culture to which Luke and Ben Skywalker don't belong, and a culture that Luke and Ben Skywalker have no reason to revere.

 

As for the woman herself, I'm a bit torn. She clearly allowed herself to become unhinged when dealing with the fanbase. She was, at least for a period of her time on the Star Wars payroll, a paragon of unprofessionalism. She wasn't (or didn't demonstrate that she was) a good writer. On the other hand, she was unquestionably prolific; the volume of her work over the last 8 or so years is almost mind-boggling. One can reasonably guess that her ability to churn out books was highly prized by the Lucas camp, and so she must have understandably felt betrayed when all of a sudden she became a target for her lack of polish.

[Captain_Zone]

If they want someone to do Mandalorians right, I nominate David Drake to come in and write some Star Wars. If you've ever read "Hammer's Slammers", you'll know what I'm talkin' about.

[Captain_Zone]

I tend to think that Traviss was more lazy than she was malicious. She certainly became spiteful as time passed, but I can't say with any degree of certainty when (or to what extent) her public diatribes crossed the line from (albeit unprofessional and ill-advised) self-therapeutic venting, over to genuine, heartfelt acrimony. To this day, I'm unsure whether her Jedi-supporters-must-be-nazis essay is real or a giant troll.

 

In retrospect, I think her novels revolved around Mandalorians because she had invested in, even partially invented, the Mandalorian culture -- and because she couldn't be bothered to learn much else about the SW universe, she ran with what she had. We know from her own statements that she doesn't read fiction, not even materiel related to her own work. We also know that she prided herself on working fast; we know that she deliberately exhausted herself because she felt that exhaustion made her more creative (and although she may be right about that, it's also nearly certain that exhaustion makes an author less thorough and/or polished).

 

In short, she pulled the same trick that smart-alec slackers in school pull all the time: they latch onto (and over-use) a few, abstruse factoids to make them look well-versed in the material, but on the whole they're clueless. That's how we end up with Luke Skywalker thinking in the Mandolorian language, for instance, or Ben Skywalker reverently referring to Mandalorian custom and technique; Traviss is trying too hard to inject authentic-sounding bits of SW culture into her fiction to make herself look competent. The problem is that she only knows about one culture -- a culture to which Luke and Ben Skywalker don't belong, and a culture that Luke and Ben Skywalker have no reason to revere.

 

As for the woman herself, I'm a bit torn. She clearly allowed herself to become unhinged when dealing with the fanbase. She was, at least for a period of her time on the Star Wars payroll, a paragon of unprofessionalism. She wasn't (or didn't demonstrate that she was) a good writer. On the other hand, she was unquestionably prolific; the volume of her work over the last 8 or so years is almost mind-boggling. One can reasonably guess that her ability to churn out books was highly prized by the Lucas camp, and so she must have understandably felt betrayed when all of a sudden she became a target for her lack of polish.

 

Well said, sir. Two minor points, though.....

 

Her hatred of Jedi became apparent when she picked Mara Jade to kill off and nobody could tell her any different. Even then, she COULD have killed Mara off in a better way than she did. But did she? Nope. She made Mara's death completely lame. Arguably THE most popular character in the Expanded Universe, and she kills her off like THAT??? Ignoring all Lore about the character that had come before.

 

Also, the Mandalorian culture was well established before she even stuck her nose into it. Her tampering wasn't needed, nor appreciated.

 

That's it. Other than those two points, you are in effect correct about her.

[Aurbere]

Well said, sir. Two minor points, though.....

 

Her hatred of Jedi became apparent when she picked Mara Jade to kill off and nobody could tell her any different. Even then, she COULD have killed Mara off in a better way than she did. But did she? Nope. She made Mara's death completely lame. Arguably THE most popular character in the Expanded Universe, and she kills her off like THAT??? Ignoring all Lore about the character that had come before.

 

Also, the Mandalorian culture was well established before she even stuck her nose into it. Her tampering wasn't needed, nor appreciated.

 

That's it. Other than those two points, you are in effect correct about her.

 

THE most popular character in EU... Over Kyle Katarn's dead body.

 

Or if your Traviss over Mara's dead body:(

[SWFTW]

O.O

 

People actually don't like her? I mean, I knew you were out there, but I've never actually met one....wow.

 

As you can tell by my reaction, I'm a fan. I love her novels (she sparked my love of Mandalorians), and I love her writing style (especially the unique (AFAIK) first-person prologue/third-person chapters thing). And the Legacy of the Force novels she wrote were some of the best in the series, all three being trumped only by Invincible. In fact (and I won't tell you where so you guys don't break the doors down), there's a website basically dedicated to her Republic Commando novels. And then there's the group called Mandalorian Mercs, who use the Mandalorian culture Traviss wrote. I also DESPISE both the hippie "Mandalorians" from TCW and Death Watch - both are nothing but wannabes, IMO. So there may not be many Traviss fans on this website, but trust me, we probably outnumber you haters. Traviss forever!

 

Bro...

 

You can count the number of people on these forums that wouldn't kill here if they were together in public on one hand.

 

Seriously.

 

I didn't even know there were SW fans that could stand her, let alone actually like her.

 

EDIT: The tip of the iceberg concerning her hater base

Edited June 19, 2012 by SWFTW

[ProfessorWalsh]

So there may not be many Traviss fans on this website, but trust me, we probably outnumber you haters. Traviss forever!

 

Doubtful.

 

Those who love Traviss are probably less than 1% of the Star Wars fans. There are so few fans of her work that Lucas Arts told her she could resign or she could be fired. That is how few people like her. You are the extreme minority.

[Slowpokeking]

Mandalorians are mostly weapons, tools of the Sith, the Sith use them to fight the Jedi and the Republic and betray them if that can bring benefit. After the Sith are beaten, the Jedi went to kick their ***.

[Mirdthestrill]

Doubtful.

 

Those who love Traviss are probably less than 1% of the Star Wars fans. There are so few fans of her work that Lucas Arts told her she could resign or she could be fired. That is how few people like her. You are the extreme minority.

 

I'd say that 1% is hyperbole. Besides, that makes it sound like it's an "Occupy Karen Traviss" thing.

[Mirdthestrill]

Mandalorians are mostly weapons, tools of the Sith, the Sith use them to fight the Jedi and the Republic and betray them if that can bring benefit. After the Sith are beaten, the Jedi went to kick their ***.

 

I'd also say that mostly tools of the Sith is taking it too far. They've served sith many times before, but they're primarily mercenaries.

[Captain_Zone]

THE most popular character in EU... Over Kyle Katarn's dead body.

 

Or if your Traviss over Mara's dead body:(

 

That's why I said Arguably.

 

She's the hottest Redhead that Star Wars ever had. Coming in a close second would be Mirith Sinn. lol

[Captain_Zone]

I'd say that 1% is hyperbole. Besides, that makes it sound like it's an "Occupy Karen Traviss" thing.

 

That's not a bad idea.

[ProfessorWalsh]

"Occupy Karen Traviss"

 

So many jokes I could make about that line...

[Invictos]

Well said, sir. Two minor points, though.....

 

Her hatred of Jedi became apparent when she picked Mara Jade to kill off and nobody could tell her any different. Even then, she COULD have killed Mara off in a better way than she did. But did she? Nope. She made Mara's death completely lame. Arguably THE most popular character in the Expanded Universe, and she kills her off like THAT??? Ignoring all Lore about the character that had come before.

 

Also, the Mandalorian culture was well established before she even stuck her nose into it. Her tampering wasn't needed, nor appreciated.

 

That's it. Other than those two points, you are in effect correct about her.

 

I don't disagree on either point, really. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether Traviss truly hated Jedi or whether she just wanted to be contrary. But at the end of the day, the why doesn't matter; she did what she did.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Traviss did invent the Mandalorian language, didn't she? I'm not saying that her invention was a worthwhile or desirable addition to the lore, but I'm sure she felt like she had a big role in fleshing out Mandalorian culture. Personally, I thought Bioware's treatment of Mandalorians in KotOR (which predated the first Traviss novel by 3-4 years, IIRC) was perfect.

 

A video game did more for Mandalorians than Traviss. It's possible, even likely, that if KotOR didn't exist, Traviss would never have thought to latch onto Mandos in the first place. When you think about it, that's pretty sad.

[Invictos]

I'd say that 1% is hyperbole. Besides, that makes it sound like it's an "Occupy Karen Traviss" thing.

 

Eh, the 1% number is certainly not well-researched, but the Professor never claimed otherwise. As an off-the-cuff estimate, 1% probably isn't that far off when you really think about it. After all, if we're talking about Star Wars fans in total, probably only a fraction of them even know about the EU, and only a small fraction of those have spent any considerable time reading about the EU. And only a fraction of those have read Traviss' books (given that she's a relative newcomer to the franchise, having started IiRC in 2004). And obviously, only a fraction (large or small) of those people like Traviss' books.

 

I don't believe it's a stretch to guess that there as many people who dislike Traviss based on her reputation alone (having never read her books), as there are people who've read and enjoy her work.

 

And based on her public outbursts, I'd have to say that Traviss is already quite thoroughly occupied by the voices in her head.

[Aurbere]

That's why I said Arguably.

 

She's the hottest Redhead that Star Wars ever had. Coming in a close second would be Mirith Sinn. lol

 

She is pretty hot that's for sure. I do agree that killing her off was the worst idea ever. The bad thing is: now they can't change it unless they want to remove the entire LOTF and FOTJ series and start over.

[Captain_Zone]

I don't disagree on either point, really. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether Traviss truly hated Jedi or whether she just wanted to be contrary. But at the end of the day, the why doesn't matter; she did what she did.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Traviss did invent the Mandalorian language, didn't she? I'm not saying that her invention was a worthwhile or desirable addition to the lore, but I'm sure she felt like she had a big role in fleshing out Mandalorian culture. Personally, I thought Bioware's treatment of Mandalorians in KotOR (which predated the first Traviss novel by 3-4 years, IIRC) was perfect.

 

A video game did more for Mandalorians than Traviss. It's possible, even likely, that if KotOR didn't exist, Traviss would never have thought to latch onto Mandos in the first place. When you think about it, that's pretty sad.

 

Mando'a WAS developed into a working language by Traviss, even though it had been mentioned prior to her involvement in Star Wars. It was completely unnecessary, imo. We don't need SW Geeks going complete nerd-out like Trek Geeks with Klingonese. /facepalm

 

Just another reason to dislike her, imo.

[Invictos]

Mando'a WAS developed into a working language by Traviss, even though it had been mentioned prior to her involvement in Star Wars. It was completely unnecessary, imo. We don't need SW Geeks going complete nerd-out like Trek Geeks with Klingonese. /facepalm

 

Just another reason to dislike her, imo.

 

Yup. Fictional languages are a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Talk about flash without substance.

[Mirdthestrill]

Here's an interesting question for the KTSWD (Karen Traviss Star Wars Dislikers)...do you have a problem with the actual plot of the books, or just the way it was handled by the author? Example:

 

Plot Fact: Jaina goes to Mandalore to learn from Boba Fett how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina learns how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina leaves.

 

Would you have a problem with these facts included in a novel by, say, Allston? Just trying to get a better feel for this.

[Forgon]

Here's an interesting question for the KTSWD (Karen Traviss Star Wars Dislikers)...do you have a problem with the actual plot of the books, or just the way it was handled by the author? Example:

 

Plot Fact: Jaina goes to Mandalore to learn from Boba Fett how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina learns how to kill her brother.

Plot Fact: Jaina leaves.

 

Would you have a problem with these facts included in a novel by, say, Allston? Just trying to get a better feel for this.

 

You picked a poor example. That "plot fact" is already ingrained in Traviss's twisted ideology. Jaina did not need to go to any Mandalorian for anything in the first place. She suddenly needed to because Karen hijacked her character and injected it with Mandalorians.

 

I would recommend choosing a broader concept from a plot of her novels but I find that difficult considering most of the concepts and themes of her books seem to all connect very easily back to the same person. Reminds me of her character homogeneity.

[Mirdthestrill]

You picked a poor example. That "plot fact" is already ingrained in Traviss's twisted ideology. Jaina did not need to go to any Mandalorian for anything in the first place. She suddenly needed to because Karen hijacked her character and injected it with Mandalorians.

 

I would recommend choosing a broader concept from a plot of her novels but I find that difficult considering most of the concepts and themes of her books seem to all connect very easily back to the same person. Reminds me of her character homogeneity.

 

And this is where I stop understanding the KTSWD comments. I can understand hating things (though I personally have no problem with them) like Jaina's apparent weakness when training with them, and killing Mara Jade. However, this goes to the point of "Force users should be completely self-sufficient" I'm sick and tired of the Star Wars attitude that, "Force users are the ultimate power in the galaxy and nothing can ever stop them and they don't need any help from anyone and are instantly wiser than anyone else" I can understand not liking the way it was handled. But protesting against her going in the first place just doesn't click with me. We know Boba was a famous Jedi-Killer. We know that Jacen knew all of Jaina's tactics and methods, and also pretty much anything that involved using the force. Therefore, where was the logical place to go? The best non-force-using Jedi Killer.

[Forgon]

And this is where I stop understanding the KTSWD comments. I can understand hating things (though I personally have no problem with them) like Jaina's apparent weakness when training with them, and killing Mara Jade. However, this goes to the point of "Force users should be completely self-sufficient" I'm sick and tired of the Star Wars attitude that, "Force users are the ultimate power in the galaxy and nothing can ever stop them and they don't need any help from anyone and are instantly wiser than anyone else" I can understand not liking the way it was handled. But protesting against her going in the first place just doesn't click with me. We know Boba was a famous Jedi-Killer. We know that Jacen knew all of Jaina's tactics and methods, and also pretty much anything that involved using the force. Therefore, where was the logical place to go? The best non-force-using Jedi Killer.

 

It is not a matter of self-sufficiency, it is a matter of why does it have to be a Mandalorian, even Boba? If another author could make it work, I would not mind. However, taking everything you have just said for fact, why can it not be any other Jedi Master? Why even need the help in the first place? Because Karen said so? So because she writes that into her story we assume that is in-character?

 

Among this, when has Boba ever in canon successfully killed a Jedi? I know his father Jango is regarded to kill six Jedi with his bare hands (outrageous claim imo but irrelevant) but never do I know of Boba successfully doing the same. Link me otherwise as my memory must be poor.

 

The Jedi are second to none and are considered the best of the best. It has been already said many times (which her supporters seem to constantly ignore) that she made Mandalorians out to be the best and demonized the Jedi. Even killing a Jedi is considered an admiral and amazing feat (this obviously also applies to the Sith) and Mandalorians are not just the perfect Jedi-killers.

 

Force users are not invincible, they are not all-knowing, and they are not flawless, but they are well beyond a majority of sentient beings other than themselves. Mandalorians definitely are not their replacement. It may sound logical to you to go to Mandalorians (even Boba) to get another perspective and insight in defeating Force users but it definitely is not the only path and definitely not the most optimal path to choose from in my opinion.

 

As far as I am concerned, the only reason that plot point had conception was because Karen wanted to fit her Mandalorians into the novel. The scenario itself is flawed, so I have a hard time imagining another author shoehorning it in there anymore then I see Mara just walking in by herself through the front door and kills Caedus before he draws his saber.

[Mirdthestrill]

It is not a matter of self-sufficiency, it is a matter of why does it have to be a Mandalorian, even Boba? If another author could make it work, I would not mind. However, taking everything you have just said for fact, why can it not be any other Jedi Master? Why even need the help in the first place? Because Karen said so? So because she writes that into her story we assume that is in-character?

 

The POINT of the whole thing is that Jacen has trained with Jaina from birth, multiple "conventional" Jedi have tried to stop him and failed. Jacen not only knows the Jedi from the inside out, but has studied with dozens of other force-using organizations. There's nothing Jaina can learn, no magic force trick that Jacen doesn't know and know how to counter. The only thing he hasn't explored, because of his Jedi Superiority viewpoint, is non-force-using techniques of killing Jedi and Sith. See Mandalorians. Even if you don't believe they kill Jedi, they're still some of the best warriors the galaxy has to offer and their leader has a grudge against Jacen Solo. You couldn't say the same for the Malkite Poisoners, for example.

 

Among this, when has Boba ever in canon successfully killed a Jedi? I know his father Jango is regarded to kill six Jedi with his bare hands (outrageous claim imo but irrelevant) but never do I know of Boba successfully doing the same. Link me otherwise as my memory must be poor.

 

There you've got me. I don't think we've seen him killing a Jedi in a canon work. He has, however, been referenced as successfully hunting Jedi several times. You don't just "acquire" a collection of lightsabers, and I have no reason to disbelieve his reputation.

 

The Jedi are second to none and are considered the best of the best. It has been already said many times (which her supporters seem to constantly ignore) that she made Mandalorians out to be the best and demonized the Jedi. Even killing a Jedi is considered an admiral and amazing feat (this obviously also applies to the Sith) and Mandalorians are not just the perfect Jedi-killers.

 

This is where things get a bit more nebulous. In the movies we see Jedi like Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Mace Windu. We have taken Jedi by these standards and created an order of super-knights. Rightly so, if all Jedi are like that. However, let's look at things a little deeper. Mace, Obi, and Anakin were all Jedi at the very top of their game. Mace was one of the greatest duelists ever known. Obi-Wan had a decade of adventuring like no other behind him, and was incredibly skilled in combat. Anakin was the Chosen One. So we see that in the movies, we get the absolute cream of the crop, so to speak. What about a skill tier beneath that? You have exceptionally good but not amazing Jedi. Another level below? You probably have your average Jedi, not an invincible guardian of justice, but a person endowed with extraordinary powers keeping the peace. After years of training and honing skills, even the most inept padawan probably makes it to this level.

 

Let's face it, Jango was defeated by Obi-Wan. However, he definitely gave him a good battle before leaving. So what about those tier 2 Jedi? Or your average Jedi? Are some Jedi "second to none and are considered the best of the best"? Absolutely. I don't think Boba would ever be able to take Yoda or Mace. Are all Jedi the best of the best and second to none? Probably not. And when you consider that the Mandalorians are the best of the force-blind best, it puts things in a slightly different light.

 

Force users are not invincible, they are not all-knowing, and they are not flawless, but they are well beyond a majority of sentient beings other than themselves. Mandalorians definitely are not their replacement. It may sound logical to you to go to Mandalorians (even Boba) to get another perspective and insight in defeating Force users but it definitely is not the only path and definitely not the most optimal path to choose from in my opinion.

 

What is this "other path"? Where else would Jaina have gone? Please give an example.

 

As far as I am concerned, the only reason that plot point had conception was because Karen wanted to fit her Mandalorians into the novel. The scenario itself is flawed, so I have a hard time imagining another author shoehorning it in there anymore then I see Mara just walking in by herself through the front door and kills Caedus before he draws his saber.

 

Answers in bright red.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Mirdthestrill

[Wolfninjajedi]

Tbh without actual info/sources on Boba killing jedi and taking their lightsabers, I find it complete crap. There needs to be information, ANYTHING showing proof anyone can say anything that they want. But there needs to be proof to back it up, he could have gotten the sabers from dead force sensitives or something. Otherwise, its just blowing smoke especially when Boba has lost against force users. Edited June 19, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi