Who here actually likes Karen Traviss?

[Kilikaa]

The really rabid fans out there never forgive, either. She ticked off a HUGE part of the Star Wars fanbase. She pissed off the Jedi fans with what she did to the Mandalorians, and she pissed off the "realistic" Mandalorian fans with what she did to them, as well. I was left shaking my head at how OP she made them. Now the other ExU authors have overcompensated for her doing that by making the Jedi Goku level OP. I really hope they can balance it out soon.

 

I have to agree that the Fate authors toned down the mandos maybe too much while powering up the entire Jedi order much more than they should have in an atempt to make up for what Traviss had done. The only Jedi who should be super at this point are Luke and Jaina. Ben is on his way. I also hope they find the proper balance in the next series.

[Captain_Zone]

Thats the best you got? Blaming her for a trend started long before she put pen to paper in SW and is continued and ramped up even more with every new novel? Or is it too difficult to call the EU what it's now become, Jedi fan fiction.

 

Ok, let's get something straight on this. Before the Karen Traviss "Saiyalorians", ONLY Luke Skywalker was OP, by necessity. Since George Lucas has the "No Kill" order on his Big Three; Luke, Leia, and Han are all imbued with Immortal Plot Armor until such time as either A. George Lucas relents and lets them get killed off, or B. George Lucas passes away and his will doesn't state that their Immortal Plot Armor is still in effect. Usually, multiple Jedi were needed to take down enemies of the Sith or Fallen Jedi variety before that. Ok, MAYBE Kyle Katarn was a bit OP too. But seriously, Traviss really took the OP trend completely beyond reason with her stuff. If you go the "fan fiction" route with FotJ, then you have to go the Mandalorian Fan Fiction route with Traviss's garbage.

[Mirdthestrill]

Ok, let's get something straight on this. Before the Karen Traviss "Saiyalorians", ONLY Luke Skywalker was OP, by necessity. Since George Lucas has the "No Kill" order on his Big Three; Luke, Leia, and Han are all imbued with Immortal Plot Armor until such time as either A. George Lucas relents and lets them get killed off, or B. George Lucas passes away and his will doesn't state that their Immortal Plot Armor is still in effect. Usually, multiple Jedi were needed to take down enemies of the Sith or Fallen Jedi variety before that. Ok, MAYBE Kyle Katarn was a bit OP too. But seriously, Traviss really took the OP trend completely beyond reason with her stuff. If you go the "fan fiction" route with FotJ, then you have to go the Mandalorian Fan Fiction route with Traviss's garbage.

 

I'm still waiting for a response.

[Aurbere]

Ok, let's get something straight on this. Before the Karen Traviss "Saiyalorians", ONLY Luke Skywalker was OP, by necessity. Since George Lucas has the "No Kill" order on his Big Three; Luke, Leia, and Han are all imbued with Immortal Plot Armor until such time as either A. George Lucas relents and lets them get killed off, or B. George Lucas passes away and his will doesn't state that their Immortal Plot Armor is still in effect. Usually, multiple Jedi were needed to take down enemies of the Sith or Fallen Jedi variety before that. Ok, MAYBE Kyle Katarn was a bit OP too. But seriously, Traviss really took the OP trend completely beyond reason with her stuff. If you go the "fan fiction" route with FotJ, then you have to go the Mandalorian Fan Fiction route with Traviss's garbage.

 

How can you call Kyle OP? He is the embodiment of John Williams. He only lets Luke Skywalker be Grand Master because Luke was there from the beginning. He could take Luke to school at any time.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ok, let's get something straight on this. Before the Karen Traviss "Saiyalorians", ONLY Luke Skywalker was OP, by necessity. Since George Lucas has the "No Kill" order on his Big Three; Luke, Leia, and Han are all imbued with Immortal Plot Armor until such time as either A. George Lucas relents and lets them get killed off, or B. George Lucas passes away and his will doesn't state that their Immortal Plot Armor is still in effect. Usually, multiple Jedi were needed to take down enemies of the Sith or Fallen Jedi variety before that. Ok, MAYBE Kyle Katarn was a bit OP too. But seriously, Traviss really took the OP trend completely beyond reason with her stuff. If you go the "fan fiction" route with FotJ, then you have to go the Mandalorian Fan Fiction route with Traviss's garbage.

 

Well being fair, Luke worked at becoming OP. I tend to think, if a character works at something even if its them becoming insanely overpowered its ok because they weren't that way to begin with.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[ProfessorWalsh]

There not at Cap levels...more like Bucky, they've completley destroyed the Mandalorians and made entire armies lightsaber fodder for a handfull of jedi.

 

This was one of the worst ideas out of all this mess, beskar was lightsaber resistant long befroe Traviss.

 

Beskar also, before Traviss, was too dense (IE read too heavy) to make armor out of. Beskar was supposed to be a super dense material that weighed an enormous amount. It was supposedly too heavy to be used as armor plating on ships, let alone as armor plating on a human. It also wasn't supposed to be "lightsaber proof" just "lightsaber resistant" meaning it took an extra whack to cut through it.

 

Im in agreance that shes anti-jedi but my question is why Denning and co. turn Jedi into Gods among lichen and no one says a word? It out of hand and completley absurd, im going back and read my old Bantam SW novels now...you know when Jedi were feirce warrior monks, not unstopable forces of nature.

 

It comes down to what is called "realistic power level based on historical occurrence" actually.

 

See, in Star Wars, we were told that the Jedi Knights protected the Republic for a thousand generations. (This usually means around 10,000 or more years.) According to the universe this order was feared by many criminal organizations including the Hutts and according to the histories the news that even one Jedi was there was enough to stop wars from erupting because people thought that Jedi were invincible super warriors who could not even be killed. According to the lore a Bounty Hunter with a single confirmed Jedi kill was able to demand top dollar for his higher than superior skills.

 

Now take that into account and also take into account that the numbers of Jedi in the galaxy have always been very small. At the height the Jedi Order has only 50,000 members. These 50,000 members were able to keep peace on thousands of Star Systems. According to the History the Manadalorians were a feared warrior race/culture that the Jedi Order alone wiped out in one major attack at the request of the Republic.

 

All of that came before Traviss.

 

Suddenly in the Traviss-verse the Jedi were worse at everything than Mandalorians and she bleached their entire cultural identity to boot. She never brings up the fact that they raided and pillaged. She never brings up the fact that their culture expanded because they murdered parents and indoctrinated war orphans (that they created) into their society. She had them belittle Jedi for their part in the Clone Wars (despite them not being responsible for that at all) while at the same time ignoring that they do far worse actions on a daily basis as a part of their cultural identity.

[ProfessorWalsh]

THE THREE BIG LIES ABOUT TRAVISS MANDALORIANS:

 

#1. They can take on Jedi or Sith single-handedly

 

When do we see them doing this?

 

Ever?

 

I suppose you could make a case for the moment in order 66 after Etain's death where Kal kills some padawans. Wow, insanely overpowered, killing a few padawans with a lightsaber. Wow. And yes, they talk about killing Jedi a lot. What criminal, mercenary, or underworld dealer doesn't?

 

Read her LotF novels. She has a Mandalorian completely school Jaina Sword of the Jedi Solo repeatedly to the point where all she could do was curl into a ball and cry. Jaina the-veteran-of-the-vong-war Solo didn't know how to fight an enemy wearing lightsaber resistant armor and who couldn't be felt in the Force. Jaina the-person-who-actually- wrote-the-book-on-specifically-fighting-and-defeating -enemies-who-are-wearing-lightsaber-resistant -armor-and-who-can't-be-felt-in-the-force Solo.

 

She also never had her Mandalorians get smacked down for their banter either. Ever.

 

If, in her LotF novels, she had had one of them mouth off about how easy Jedi are to kill, and then had Jaina, who is by no means a calm individual who would take crap from someone like that, challenge them to a fight and completely smack the Mando around while Boba Fett laughed and told the Mando that he needed to learn a few things before he dared to pick a fight with a Jedi, she might have saved her Star Wars writing career.

 

#2. Beskar is completely invulnerable

 

No, Beskar is not the ultimate lightsaber blocker. It may have great resistance to sabers, as shown, but there are many, many ways to get around it. We just don't see any in the books because (refer to number one) they never fight Jedi. Outside of Traviss novels, we see Exar Kun cutting open Freedon Nadd's Beskar tomb. We see Jacen Solo blasting apart a Beskar chestplate with Shatterpoint. Nothing that Traviss ever contradicted in the books, just something that was never given the opportunity to be shown. It is also implied, within Traviss and outside of her works, that Besker will not stand up to a direct lightsaber stab. All we ever see it blocking in the books (in training bouts and things of that nature) are glancing cuts, not stabs.

 

Beskar is also supposedly to heavy to make armor out of.

 

#3. The books are explicitly anti-jedi simply because Traviss hate Jedi

 

Indeed, the Mandalorians hate Jedi. I'm not going to contradict you there. I won't even deny that Traviss hates the Jedi. However, something that has been established long previous to this is that, as stated above, Mandalorians hate Jedi. This book is being written from a third-person "jumping heads" perspective, with almost all of the jumpees being Mandalorians. Follow the logic. If almost anyone else wrote a similar book about Mandalorians, then the same measure of disdain for Jedi would be called for.

 

Edit: And can we all agree to deny the pacifist Mandalorians from TCW? Those go against everything ever established even without Traviss.

 

Actually she also has every Jedi agree with the Mandos about everything as well as everyone else too.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Im still waiting for the bathrobe cheering section to tell me why the Jedi are gary stu'ed into the realm of gods and no one says a word. But if any other group is it's pitchforks and torches.

 

Anakin- "No one can kill a jedi."

Qui-gon- "I wish that were so."

Anakin- "You must not read the EU after NJO."

 

Because in Star Wars Jedi have always been the bar none best. Darth Sidious wasn't concerned with the Mandalorians interfering with his plans, he was worried about the Jedi. The Sith didn't think the Mandalorians could stop them, the Sith thought the Jedi could. The Mandalorians didn't defeat the Jedi ever, the Jedi wiped them out.

 

Star Wars is a story about Jedi and Sith not Jedi, Sith, and Mandalorians.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I always found that Jango(movie incarnation) was a good balance as a mandalorian. (Well the Taung are too I actually wished they didn't become extinct, they are good but even they have limits.) But on screen, we see Jango fighting against jedi but he is ultimately no match for them in the long run especially against jedi masters. Thats how I see mandalorians being, they are excellent warriors but in a long lengthy battle against a jedi they aren't up to snuff.

 

Now the EU portraying Jango killing jedi with his bare hands....I feel as if, that doesn't mesh correctly with what we are seeing in the movies. Unless of course all those jedi were padawans.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Forgon]

Do I like her personally? No.

 

Do I like her approach to writing in the EU? No.

 

Do I like most of the things she has done? No.

 

Do I feel her books are poorly written? No.

 

Do I feel her books are flawless? No.

 

Distaste the woman. Am neutral on her writing.

[YoshiRaphElan]

whatever, honestly. if ya don't like KT, that's fine, her clone commando novels were ruled non-canon, and therefore we work on what other information we have on Mandalorians... among which includes them bringing the Republic (and the Jedi) to their knees in the war preluding the jedi civil war and the great galactic war. Plus lightside (and most in general) bountyhunters are Mandalorian... and the bounty hunter character killed -many- jedi nobodies in addition to several very powerful jedi.

 

No, they're still canon. Everything has been completely retconned to fit with them.

[Mirdthestrill]

Read her LotF novels. She has a Mandalorian completely school Jaina Sword of the Jedi Solo repeatedly to the point where all she could do was curl into a ball and cry. Jaina the-veteran-of-the-vong-war Solo didn't know how to fight an enemy wearing lightsaber resistant armor and who couldn't be felt in the Force. Jaina the-person-who-actually- wrote-the-book-on-specifically-fighting-and-defeating -enemies-who-are-wearing-lightsaber-resistant -armor-and-who-can't-be-felt-in-the-force Solo.

 

The book actually states that it was the "total war" mindset that got her, but I'm willing to concede a bit on this one because it turns into a massive argument over almost nothing. She had indeed fought enemies that were force-blind before.

 

She also never had her Mandalorians get smacked down for their banter either. Ever.

 

Jaina specifically thinks several times that she would if she weren't there to learn. Would you have objected if she went to, say, the Jensaarai to learn and didn't have one of them get "smacked down" for their force views?

 

If, in her LotF novels, she had had one of them mouth off about how easy Jedi are to kill, and then had Jaina, who is by no means a calm individual who would take crap from someone like that, challenge them to a fight and completely smack the Mando around while Boba Fett laughed and told the Mando that he needed to learn a few things before he dared to pick a fight with a Jedi, she might have saved her Star Wars writing career.

 

Saved it for all the people who don't enjoy it, yes.

 

Beskar is also supposedly to heavy to make armor out of.

 

Not sure where you got that or what it has to do with my argument.

 

Actually she also has every Jedi agree with the Mandos about everything as well as everyone else too.

 

Not "every Jedi". One failure and one renegade. And a bored general is sometimes seen as being at a loss for words after arguments about Jedi blindness, something which Palpatine himself confirmed and used against them.

 

Red answers...I need a new response color.

[Mirdthestrill]

I'd also like to say that I personally believe that the Traviss Mandalorians were better when not mixing with canon Jedi. LotF created much controversy and some things that yes, were a bit contrary to previously established things. Republic Commando is better, imho.

[Mirdthestrill]

According to the History the Manadalorians were a feared warrior race/culture that the Jedi Order alone wiped out in one major attack at the request of the Republic.

 

?

 

Where are you getting this? Galidraan didn't nearly wipe out the Mandalorians. The Mandalorian Wars simply broke the back of the culture and turned them into mercenaries.

[ProfessorWalsh]

?

 

Where are you getting this? Galidraan didn't nearly wipe out the Mandalorians. The Mandalorian Wars simply broke the back of the culture and turned them into mercenaries.

 

The original novelization of the Empire Strikes Back. The first mention in writing of Boba Fett with a description on his armor and the people it came from.

[Aurbere]

I always found that Jango(movie incarnation) was a good balance as a mandalorian. (Well the Taung are too I actually wished they didn't become extinct, they are good but even they have limits.) But on screen, we see Jango fighting against jedi but he is ultimately no match for them in the long run especially against jedi masters. Thats how I see mandalorians being, they are excellent warriors but in a long lengthy battle against a jedi they aren't up to snuff.

 

Now the EU portraying Jango killing jedi with his bare hands....I feel as if, that doesn't mesh correctly with what we are seeing in the movies. Unless of course all those jedi were padawans.

 

Yeah, Jango was pretty awesome in AOTC and he wasn't OP. He was able to tango(Jango:p) with Obi-Wan but didn't ROFLstomp him. That's mando in my opinion, not like these pacifist wannabe's in TCW. Those posers made me want Death Watch to win.

[drfumblez]

I don't go out of my way to read her novels, but from the few i've read they're pretty good. Mainly the Gears novels, but I like her well enough.

[Mirdthestrill]

Yeah, Jango was pretty awesome in AOTC and he wasn't OP. He was able to tango(Jango:p) with Obi-Wan but didn't ROFLstomp him. That's mando in my opinion, not like these pacifist wannabe's in TCW. Those posers made me want Death Watch to win.

 

Can we all agree to boycott the TCW Mandos? They aren't correct by anyone's standards.

[Kanana]

See, in Star Wars, we were told that the Jedi Knights protected the Republic for a thousand generations. (This usually means around 10,000 or more years.) According to the universe this order was feared by many criminal organizations including the Hutts and according to the histories the news that even one Jedi was there was enough to stop wars from erupting because people thought that Jedi were invincible super warriors who could not even be killed. According to the lore a Bounty Hunter with a single confirmed Jedi kill was able to demand top dollar for his higher than superior skills.

 

Now take that into account and also take into account that the numbers of Jedi in the galaxy have always been very small. At the height the Jedi Order has only 50,000 members. These 50,000 members were able to keep peace on thousands of Star Systems. According to the History the Manadalorians were a feared warrior race/culture that the Jedi Order alone wiped out in one major attack at the request of the Republic.

 

They are not able to keep the peace. Just check all the wars and conflicts going on.

 

The problem is the EU. The movies don't show unstoppable super-sayans on any side.

[TKMaster]

Ok, let's get something straight on this. Before the Karen Traviss "Saiyalorians", ONLY Luke Skywalker was OP, by necessity. Since George Lucas has the "No Kill" order on his Big Three; Luke, Leia, and Han are all imbued with Immortal Plot Armor until such time as either A. George Lucas relents and lets them get killed off, or B. George Lucas passes away and his will doesn't state that their Immortal Plot Armor is still in effect. Usually, multiple Jedi were needed to take down enemies of the Sith or Fallen Jedi variety before that. Ok, MAYBE Kyle Katarn was a bit OP too. But seriously, Traviss really took the OP trend completely beyond reason with her stuff. If you go the "fan fiction" route with FotJ, then you have to go the Mandalorian Fan Fiction route with Traviss's garbage.

 

Never said i didnt.

[SentinelDranoel]

I love her. The work she did with the Gears Of War series has turned me into a fan. I have a book she did with the Republic Commando story but have not read it yet.

[Aurbere]

Can we all agree to boycott the TCW Mandos? They aren't correct by anyone's standards.

 

I'd sign a petition to do that. And I would make up a bunch of alias' to sign it as well.

[ProfessorWalsh]

They are not able to keep the peace. Just check all the wars and conflicts going on.

 

The problem is the EU. The movies don't show unstoppable super-sayans on any side.

 

Uhm, there weren't that many conflicts going on.

 

You aren't looking at the scope of things in context.

 

After the Jedi came, yes, there were wars, a fraction of the number of wars that were pre-Jedi (of which, for example, pre-Jedi there were 17 different wars on Coruscant alone)

 

There was, in Star Wars, a conflict every few hundred years usually. This is actually really impressive considering on Earth in real life in 100 years we have seen multiple wars.

[Captain_Zone]

What it comes down to is this: Her work is mostly in military fiction. The funny thing is, almost everyone else out there who writes similar stories does a better job.

 

Tom Clancy? Check. (Rainbow Six)

Richard Marcinko? Check. (Rogue Warrior series)

Allan Cole? Check. (Sten)

Chris Bunch? Check. (Sten, The Last Legion)

Mary Gentle? Check. (Grunts)

Dave Sherman? Check. (StarFIST)

Dan Cragg? Check. (StarFIST)

David Drake? Check. (Hammer's Slammers)

 

And as far as Star Wars goes, she was never a good fit.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[CassusVerda]

Yeah, Jango was pretty awesome in AOTC and he wasn't OP. He was able to tango(Jango:p) with Obi-Wan but didn't ROFLstomp him. That's mando in my opinion, not like these pacifist wannabe's in TCW. Those posers made me want Death Watch to win.

 

This pretty much. Still hoping Spar and his Mandalorian Protectors comes out of no-where and curb stomps Vizsla or better yet they are a splinter cell in the splinter cell that destroys it from within.