Why do people feel that everything should be easy to obtain?

[Razdek]

I'm sorry but this is exactly the attitude that is killing the MMO. MMO's are not games for the masses, they are games for MMO players. Bowling on the Wii is for "the masses".

 

Of course there is a play style that one must follow to play an MMO. You must play it like an MMO. If you can't play it lke an MMO, with the expectation that your progress will be determined by the time you have to commit to it, then you should not be playing MMO's.

 

There are simple video/PC games and hard ones. A large problem with this game is that it is far too simple to play. There is very little skill or knowledge required to play TOR. The difficulty in this game has been turned so low that it is in "off".

 

A secret that most all veteran MMO players know is that gear, even godlike uber gear does not make a bad player good. A person who can't work with a party is useless, no matter how uber his or her gear is. A major issue with TOR's non-MMO flavour is that because everything is so insanely simple, new players never learn how to play an MMO. Yes, it takes SKILL. The skill isn't in how good you are at pressing hotkeys, it is in knowing your limitations and strengths, and how to work with other people and classes.

 

In short... The uber tank from Everquest who had the once-a-month drop from uber monster #20 was never uber because he had the Sword of Uberness, or because he could play 16 hours a day. He was uber because he knew how to play his role in an MMO. The tiny percentage of extra damage he may have been doing because of said sword is completely insignificant.

 

 

 

Bwhahaha MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER = masses... Being an mmo automatically makes your point just wrong. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a massive minority... See what i did there

Edited June 20, 2012 by Razdek

[Deyjarl]

 

One of my favorite stories I tell from EQ is I was playing my Troll Shaman and had just died (yes you could die in that game when solo) and I had just zoned back into deserrt from Troll Area (I forget names all these years later) when I saw a guy with a flaming sword.

 

Now I could have gone to the forum and demanded that I also get a flaming sword because he had it and complain about how unfair it is he was able to dedicate the time to obtain such a item... (as so many of todays players seem to do under the pretense this is not a job, its a game)

 

Again this is really a complete exaggeration of the discussion.

[Deyjarl]

Not any more it's not.

 

Seriously? Yeah lots of left. They still have millions more paying players than any other game. So yes WoW still sells and is still one of the top games out there for popularity. Even if you isolate NA and Europe, WoW still has huge numbers over other games. You have to be in complete denial to claim otherwise.

 

I don't care to play WoW either, but I'm honest enough to admit that they are doing quite well even if their player base is slightly smaller than before. It is still a gargantuan player base.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Deyjarl]

This is THE MOST casual-oriented mmo I've ever played -- far more than ever WoW.

 

As someone said, shouldn't those then wanting it to be their way realize the game wasn't made for them instead of trying to change it?

[Deyjarl]

 

You play 100000000 hours because you choose to

or

You play 1 hour because you choose to

 

Thats completely YOUR CHOICE!

 

But in game, when the 1 hour player has everything the 10000000 hour player has, nothing is meaningful or unique!

 

And you don't think that is going to affect their play experience when the game is suited to Mr 12 hours a day over those who are only playing it some?

 

Oh that is right you don't care you want it your way. Again game companies are there to make money. So they are going to cater the games to the largest group of players. Hardcore players are not the target audience for many games. There are games out there for you. They are niche games, and draw a niche playerbase. This game isn't trying to do that.

[Grayseven]

I'm sorry but this is exactly the attitude that is killing the MMO. MMO's are not games for the masses, they are games for MMO players. Bowling on the Wii is for "the masses".

 

Of course there is a play style that one must follow to play an MMO. You must play it like an MMO. If you can't play it lke an MMO, with the expectation that your progress will be determined by the time you have to commit to it, then you should not be playing MMO's.

 

There are simple video/PC games and hard ones. A large problem with this game is that it is far too simple to play. There is very little skill or knowledge required to play TOR. The difficulty in this game has been turned so low that it is in "off".

 

A secret that most all veteran MMO players know is that gear, even godlike uber gear does not make a bad player good. A person who can't work with a party is useless, no matter how uber his or her gear is. A major issue with TOR's non-MMO flavour is that because everything is so insanely simple, new players never learn how to play an MMO. Yes, it takes SKILL. The skill isn't in how good you are at pressing hotkeys, it is in knowing your limitations and strengths, and how to work with other people and classes.

 

In short... The uber tank from Everquest who had the once-a-month drop from uber monster #20 was never uber because he had the Sword of Uberness, or because he could play 16 hours a day. He was uber because he knew how to play his role in an MMO. The tiny percentage of extra damage he may have been doing because of said sword is completely insignificant.

 

Really? You've obviously never sat through a business class...

 

MMO's are MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER...that means that they are for MASSES not for a few individuals. Successful MMO's ensure that their game is enjoyable by as many play styles as feasible...not just a few "MMO players".

 

If you don't design a game around the customer...you won't have customers. No customers, no development budget. No budget, little to no new content. No new content, no re-subbing MMO players that make up the stable player base.

 

If you try to shoehorn your player base into one specific play style, you alienate players who don't enjoy that play style or don't share the company view of how the game "should be played". When game companies try to force the issue, they lose customers.

 

And yes, I said FORCED. When you say "do it this way or else" you are forced. You may not need it, but if you want it and there is one way to get it...you are being FORCED.

 

No one NEEDS anything in a game, but when you add new content and gate the achievement of that content in such a way as to shove a player into a specific play style you are FORCING that play style.

 

As for your gear comment...every "veteran MMO" play knows that if you don't have the gear you don't have the proof you are a veteran. When people will grind out weeks of content to get an extra +2 to a stat you can't say that gear doesn't matter. Yeah, getting that gear takes game knowledge but getting that knowledge isn't hard and neither is playing the game.

 

No one is asking for easy. It is already easy. People are asking that they use something other than a lame game mechanic attempt to force a play style decision on people to play both factions on one server. That's it, nothing more. A quest line that takes effort? That'd be great. Having more than one character at level 50? No problem. Grinding out mobs looking for a rare drop? Sure. But don't force the two factions/ one server issue.

[BeeblesTV]

This could be solved by giving us a slot for each storyline.

[Toogeloo]

People stopped socializing and playing together when Everquest ended and WoW started. I remember the days of 72 man raids... having to group to get any kind of decent experience... having to know people who could get you things you couldn't get yourself because you can't do everything in the game on one character.

 

Now, MMOs are all about single player content from 1-49 and then small groups at 50. Look at Raids and how they have dramatically shrunk over the past decade. 72 man raids to 30 man raids... then from 30 down to 25... then down to 20... and now here we are in TOR with 16 man and 8 man. The MMO doesn't want you to commune with the masses anymore. Far too many trolls that people would just prefer to avoid. Now we get our small social circle, hardly the masses we used to have, and just keep to ourselves.

 

 

EDIT: as far as the topic at hand...

 

BioWare has already spoonfed things to everyone where you would have to be playing with your toes and blindfolded to be missing out on easy to obtain items. Given a lucky set of circumstances, a Raid can completely outfit their entire force in just a few weeks in an Operation because each boss drops so many pieces of Loot and so many Coms for loot purchases... not to mention it takes almost no effort to get specific things because everything is based on tokens, so you can just turn them in for what you want.

 

The game hands loot out like it were candy on halloween. It's the mentality we have been given to associate with the game. I can have a fresh level 50 completely Hard Mode Denova ready in less than a week in many circumstances.

 

 

And as someone else stated... I have 4 level 50 Imperial characters on a PvE server, and I have 2 level 50 Republic characters on an RP-PvP server... why should I be denied an HK droid if I don't want to level yet another 2 level 50s for an HK droid for both Servers?

Edited June 20, 2012 by Toogeloo

[Skidrowbro]

And you don't think that is going to affect their play experience when the game is suited to Mr 12 hours a day over those who are only playing it some?

 

Oh that is right you don't care you want it your way. Again game companies are there to make money. So they are going to cater the games to the largest group of players. Hardcore players are not the target audience for many games. There are games out there for you. They are niche games, and draw a niche playerbase. This game isn't trying to do that.

 

You see the difference is that someone can accomplish what Mr. 12 hours a day is doing. It just takes them longer. What is the big deal with that then? Even in WoW I was disheartened when I busted my *** off to get my warlock's level 60 epic mount then a few months later they handed them out like candy. It's stuff like that which has ruined the genre. MMORPG's used to be a hobby, now they are an E-Sport.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Kalfear]

Name one that has been a huge success?

 

I never said any failed. That is your strawman argument you've mad eup to defeat.

 

Have there been games on that model that are surviving? Sure. Never said there weren't. But there are no widely successful ones, at least not in the NA market that use that model. Not even DAoC.

 

EQ, DAoC, Lineage 1 and 2, Final Fantasy mmo, and many many more, list goes on and on. Many many pre WOW MMOs hit their target marks subscription and term wise. Until WOW dumbed it down the MMORPG genre was quite healthy supporting a wide variety of titles (not just surviving but thriving with greater then predicted targets).

 

By asking this question with out actually answering the question submitted its pretty clear your just here to argue and talk nonsense so im done with you.

 

Maybe at some point you will make a point but I havent seen it yet

 

Your just argueing for the sake of argueing. There is actually a well known term for what your doing but the mods get upset when posters point it out at others so ill not actually say it.

 

But if the shoe fits .......

 

So when you actually have valid factual info to share, by all means share. But pretty clear your not interested in doing that based on your non commital replies that tend to say nothing but argue for the sake of argueing.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Kalfear

[MWidowmaker]

Again this is really a complete exaggeration of the discussion.

 

his point is still valid

[thomasmeadows]

But then some people are trying to change this into something else. They seem to be trying to change this game into some kind of hardcore model, which is not what it is now.

 

So shouldn't they be the ones to realize this game wasn't designed for them?

 

Bwhahaha MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER = masses... Being an mmo automatically makes your point just wrong. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a massive minority... See what i did there

 

MMO's have always been designed for "massive" amounts of people. This one fails because it is designed for one type of person. The type that is "casual" and can only spend a couple hours of day playing this game. But even "those" types of people run through all the content of the game within a couple months and cancel their sub. The only type of person that star wars is designed for is the roleplayer(those who play the game for the story). Now being great at story game is not necessarily a bad thing. Its what you want in a single player game. Final Fantasy is great at Story Telling, so is star wars. The problem is I can beat final fantasy in a week and get every item in the game. Well wait...I can do that with star wars too..well whats the difference? I quit playing everything in Final Fantasy after 7 days because I beat it quickly and got all the best weapons in the game. I can do that in star wars in 7 days too. Why should I keep playing Star Wars and continue to pay a sub. Even if this game goes free to play people will continue to do what they have been doing. They will sub a couple months and quit. Making it F2P won't change anything.

 

There are several types of people that play mmo's

1) For the companionship. They want to meet people and have a fun time playing. They want to do events

that can involve a lot of people. They like helping other people even if it is at their inconvenience

2) For the glory. They want to beat the hardest boss in game and want trophy's that no one else have so they can be admired. They like titles, and shiney things that shine more than anything else that only drops 1/100 chance off the hardest boss.

3) For the difficulty. They want a challenge cause they are tired of games being too easy. And think that it is challenging to lead 32 people together to kill 1 monster that is super powerful.

4) For the loot. They only want loot, they want the best in the game, and they want everyone to look up to them for what have. These are your people who own the auction house. Will need on every roll possible. And will have all the coolest outfits in the game.

5) For the story. They want a story to be told, and be told well. The ones who like to roleplay and pretend they are their character.

 

Typically people play MMORPG's in the order listed above by popularity. Unfortunately in this day and age people play online to socialize (#1). The problem is, their isn't much to socialize and do in star wars when the game is too easy (#3). So because the game is too easy (#3), the for the glory people(#2) really aren't doing anything that is that glorious and the for the loot people (#4) have no loot that is really that great and is a cut above the rest in this game.

 

Not to mention anyone who is (#1-#4) could not play the game after the first and second wave of type (#1-#4) people had left the servers barren due to difficulty(#3) people being mad the game was too easy. Then the #4 people couldn't use the auction house because no one was playing because it was too easy(#3). Its a vicious cycle that will probably just continue on until Bioware realizes the audience that MMO's are actually designed for.

 

The only people who have stuck it out really are story type #5 because they want to hear all the storys on all of the characters.

 

• The companionship people(#1) are still mad that friend list don't work and you can't add people who are offline to friends list and that there is no in game voice chat system.
  
• The for the glory people(#2) are pissed because their is no trophy worth getting next to "The unyeilding" and "The infernal" titles. Which really don't mean much after all. And they probably already have the car and bell that drop from karagga, the only cool. And the pvp people(#2) are mad there is still no cross server war zones and you get degrouped when leaving warzones.
  
• The difficulty people(#3) are still pissed this game is too easy. Plus whats with the out of order difficulty of bosses in this game. Why is HK the hardest boss in FE?. Why is bulwark the hardest boss in D7? And every other flashpoint or OP is this game is the same way.
  
• The auction house not having 7 day sale time is still pissing off the loot people(#4). Plus there is not even anything difficult enough to get in this game to even consider it loot.
  
• And the story(#5) people are mad that the story line for counselor sucked. That story line alone can make someone quit.
  

 

THIS GAME NEEDS TO APPEAL TO EVERY TYPE OF PERSONALITY THAT PLAYS MMORPGS NOT JUST ONE. THAT IS THE POINT OF A "MASSIVE" MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME!!!

 

Ultimately if the game fails to attract all 5 types of players, It will fail...period. I want this game to be successful, so I want some things in this game to be difficult to obtain. Does that mean that EVERYTHING has to be difficult to obtain? no. There just needs to be something in this game for hardcore players. How come diablo is allowed to have a inferno mode with awesome drops but this game can't? This game has lost 9/10 of its subscribers(and please don't quote the company lie err i mean line to argue against it, just look at the server list)...obviously there is a problem. Hmm...wonder what.

Edited June 20, 2012 by thomasmeadows

[lokivoid]

I'm not trolling, I want to have a serious discussion.

 

For example, the HK-51 companion coming out is probably going to require both a lvl 50 imperial and a lvl republic character on the same legacy to get. People all of a sudden start to complain about how they "don't feel like leveling an opposite faction character" and "Bioware messed this one up I'm quitting". I happen to like the requirement because not everyone is going to get it, it's fun to experience leveling a character on both sides, and it's not another one of those freebies to come in the mail. We have to work for it. People in this game feel they are entitled to get everything that comes out in this game, and if they don't feel like doing it, it becomes "unfair" and "bad business Bioware".

 

I think some people fail to realize that this is not a single player game. You aren't going to get everything handed to you. In MMOs a lot of the successful players have things the other don't because they put in more effort. This isn't even a diffcult requirement anyway. I applaud Bioware for making this awesome companion at least a little difficult to get. I'm not trying to disparage anyone, I'd really like to know why people feel that if they don't like to do something then it shouldn't be a requirement to get a cool companion. I know some people have filled all their charact6er slots but have like a lvl 40, a lvl 20 and six lvl 1-10 characters. You can afford to delete one of them to level a republic guy if you want HK-51. It is your choice whether to fulfill the requirements or not.

 

Can we at least have a somewhat civil discussion for once? I have a feeling it's going to be too much to ask.

 

Honestly i have no issue with rolling a alt to 50 as the requirment. The problem i can see is requiring said alt to on the opposite faction. Alot of players dont like playing cross faction.

 

Though personally ether one has no effect on me considering i have maxed out all base classes for both factions.

[lokivoid]

How come diablo is allowed to have a inferno mode with awesome drops but this game can't? This game has lost 9/10 of its subscribers(and please don't quote the company lie err i mean line to argue against it, just look at the server list)...obviously there is a problem. Hmm...wonder what.

 

 

Bad example, considering that game was terrible, its entire item system was designed was based around RMAH. Go look at user review sites you will find that game has a average of 4 out of 10 (abysmal") Only reason that game has a player population is blizzard gave the game to every person with a yearly wow subscription for free.

[SaintAvalon]

Items shouldn't be easy to obtain, however, they shouldn't force us to level more than one character. That's the flaw here. You have a character, you are good to go, give us a quest line, or some other thing to obtain it.

 

This is much like the raid loot... people complained they couldn't get raid loot cause all they do are instances, and now everyone in every MMO can get raid loot by doing instances..

 

MMO's are a dying breed until a company really keeps some of the core principles, such as raid loot for raiders...

 

All i ever hear or read is "I pay too I deserve it".

 

This isn't pay to win, this is earn it, by doing a requirement.

 

Until a dev keeps that philosophy we will always get dumbed down things.

 

However, I agree in this case that it is a fatal move to require us to have one on each side. I'm sick of leveling characters for the most part, I've done it in too many MMO's. I enjoy my main and I want my main to earn the items...

[thomasmeadows]

Bad example, considering that game was terrible, its entire item system was designed was based around RMAH. Go look at user review sites you will find that game has a average of 4 out of 10 (abysmal") Only reason that game has a player population is blizzard gave the game to every person with a yearly wow subscription for free.

 

Was not intending just to mean only diablo specifically, its just the first game that came to mind cause I played it recently. Lots of games have harder modes or extremely hard bosses. Another example is the bahamat's of final fantasy that players can choose to kill if they are hardcore or they can pass them by if they are casual players. Call of duty and halo have veteran modes. Why can't star wars?

[thomasmeadows]

Items shouldn't be easy to obtain, however, they shouldn't force us to level more than one character. That's the flaw here. You have a character, you are good to go, give us a quest line, or some other thing to obtain it.

 

This is much like the raid loot... people complained they couldn't get raid loot cause all they do are instances, and now everyone in every MMO can get raid loot by doing instances..

 

MMO's are a dying breed until a company really keeps some of the core principles, such as raid loot for raiders...

 

All i ever hear or read is "I pay too I deserve it".

 

This isn't pay to win, this is earn it, by doing a requirement.

 

Until a dev keeps that philosophy we will always get dumbed down things.

 

However, I agree in this case that it is a fatal move to require us to have one on each side. I'm sick of leveling characters for the most part, I've done it in too many MMO's. I enjoy my main and I want my main to earn the items...

 

Personally I would rather have HK drop from KP2 Inferno mode's final boss and have a 1/10 chance of dropping so every person in the world doesn't have him and if that includes myself because i'm not with the best guild on the server so be it. Right now its just another grind to keep people playing and even though it requires 2 lvl 50's on opposite factions, it will be some easy quest to get him that you will probably be able to do by yourself with little effort. I already have the requirements for HK, it won't mean anything to me other than being the first to get him but the way SWTOR is headed, I probably will not buy an expansion, I will just unsub and move on.

[Ka-tel]

Easy! This is a game and not a job... I work most of the day and have only a couple of hours to play, sometimes none at all... so i don't want to get out from one job to get into another...

 

So a game should only have enough content so that someone who can only play a couple hours a day will be satisfied? If you don't want to earn things then go play a single-player game. Giving away everything to everyone = nothing to do. Don't you get it?

[thomasmeadows]

Giving away everything to everyone = nothing to do. Don't you get it?

 

That is the most brilliant phrase I have ever read on this forum.

[Razdek]

So a game should only have enough content so that someone who can only play a couple hours a day will be satisfied? If you don't want to earn things then go play a single-player game. Giving away everything to everyone = nothing to do. Don't you get it?

 

I don't think you get it... Majority of players are casual these days. Games revolve around the majority because thats where the money is... And again everyone thinks people arnt willing to put in effort... Not true at all... Less time to play doesnt mean less skill or willing to put in effort... We want accessibility. There is a huge difference.

[Skidrowbro]

I don't think you get it... Majority of players are casual these days. Games revolve around the majority because thats where the money is... And again everyone thinks people arnt willing to put in effort... Not true at all... Less time to play doesnt mean less skill or willing to put in effort... We want accessibility. There is a huge difference.

 

So you should be able to casually beat a game with no effort?

Edited June 20, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Razdek]

So you should be able to casually beat a game with no effort?

 

Did you even read my post? Clearly not. Try reading it again . You will see that it says we are willing to put in effort.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Razdek

[FITorion]

I don't want it to be really easy. But I do want it to take something other than just time. Grinding credits isn't hard... in fact I'm hard pressed to think of an easier thing. What it is, is boring.

 

I want things to take skill or cleverness to get. If you are sufficiently skillful or clever then it shouldn't take very much time to get. Time spent is not a good measure of difficulty.

[Razdek]

I don't want it to be really easy. But I do want it to take something other than just time. Grinding credits isn't hard... in fact I'm hard pressed to think of an easier thing. What it is, is boring.

 

I want things to take skill or cleverness to get. If you are sufficiently skillful or clever then it shouldn't take very much time to get. Time spent is not a good measure of difficulty.

 

This ^. Well said.

[Kanana]

A game should be fun, first and foremost. If a game is only fun for a minority of its players, then the game failed.

 

Now, anyone can handicap themselves and make things harder for themselves by using a handicap - no companion, no armor, etc. It's easy. But those who whine about things being too easy don't want a challenge for themselves, they want to make the game harder - too hard - for others so they can feel better/"über".

 

That's not the kind of people a game should cater to.