LotR army VS SW army

[Maaruin]

Ewoks set snares, pitfalls, drop nets, and other traps all over the place, they didn't charge in like a bunch of idiots. If you looked at the movie Return of the King, that Riders of Rohan charge was from a military history standpoint should have been a complete failure. Study the 100 Year War, those kind of stupid attacks were why the French lost several fights to the English, fights that considering the English were seriously outmanned, they should have won.

 

The charge worked because Sauron didn't expect Rohan helping Gondor. His troopes weren't prepared for that. (The charge in The Two Towers would have failed, though.)

 

The English on the other hand developed tactics to counter these charges.

 

But yeah, it won't work against Storm troopers. But elves could do it like the Ewoks when fighting in the forests. And the Dunedain could.

 

The normal armies from LotR don't stand a chance.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Maaruin

[Mistress_Ivi]

It would take a single, yes a single, Lightsabre to end the one ring.

 

If we forget the whole story and put world against world... starwars would win with a single transport vessel from orbit.

Would take a few weeks... but eventually the whole of middle earth would be blasted from existance.

 

This was never a fair fight to begin with.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay. So you think in this situation Yoda would choose to take the ring?

 

If he saw the Jedi were suffering, dying and empowering Sidious, he was also

 

It's not that elvish technology can counter SW technology, it is that elves have proven they can develope similar technology so they probably can also reverse engineer space ships and build their own ones afterwards.

 

20 years, from arrows and swords to SW level technology? I don't think so.

 

 

I think she won't.

 

So it's different understanding of her character.

 

If I understand correctly you can't believe that anyone could reject the Dark Side if it means loosing and dooming his people. So that's not a problem between LotR and Star Wars.

 

I believe anyone could shake when their loved ones were in great danger and there was no better solution. Nobody is pure light or dark.

 

 

So a success chance around 1% or the fact that maybe 5% of her people could flee in times makes the difference?

 

It's mostly 0%.

 

Because Vader really kind of destroyed Anakin. Obi-Wan never intended Luke to hate Vader because of this, he tried to explain it in a way that won't confuse Luke too much and still is close to the truth.

 

But it did and he should know clearly about it. He could simply say Vader went corrupted and Luke should be aware of the Dark Side.

 

Obi-Wan's "lie" is only worse if his intention was to create hatred in Luke. That's far from true.

 

It's already worse, Vader was telling the truth about Obi Wan's lies except maybe the motive, Obi Wan simply said Vader killed Luke's father.

 

Anakin already hated Dooku then, if I remember correctly.

 

So did Luke, he knew Vader killed his father and his mentor.

 

Of course he could kill without anger and hate. H could kill with regret, especially because Vader was his father.

 

Kill his own father without any anger and hate? How? If he regret, he should try to save him.

 

Nobody planned the Emperor to be present than. They planned Luke to face Vader and afterwards help the Rebellion until they are strong enough to defeat the Emperor.

 

They thought the Emperor is that stupid?

 

But he came with the intent to kill him.

 

He was keep struggling

 

An Island ruler can be as important as the US president in his political context, that was what I wanted to say.

 

 

But shouldn't it be impossible for a human to rule the galaxy than? Since politicians are often barely able to rule their country, it should be impossible for anyone to rule more than one planet.

 

Was Kaan more important than Naga Sadow?

 

It's not even close, we are comparing the ruler of a planet, leader(at least the public idol) of at least 1/3 of the galaxy VS ruler of a kingdom on a continent.

 

It makes him more important then Prince Xizor for the underworld.

 

I don't think so.

 

I didn't say if Middle Earth was a planet in the SW galaxy Galadriel would be more important there than Dooku. I said Galadriel was more important for Middle Earth than Dooku was for the SW galaxy.

 

Because Middle Earth is much smaller, if we make a crossover we have to think about it.

 

 

 

Nihilus didn't start with conuming planets. Ungoliat had the potential to become as powerful as Nihilus.

 

So it's just speculation.

 

 

And afterwards she would become the next Dark Lord. It is the same in LotR and Star Wars: Choosing to follow the dark side in order to save other only creates even more suffering

 

How is it worse than let her people and Middle Earth doomed under Sauron's reign?

 

As a leader, abandon her people to eternal suffering, empower a super evil ruler is not dark?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[Maaruin]

It would take a single, yes a single, Lightsabre to end the one ring.

 

If we forget the whole story and put world against world... starwars would win with a single transport vessel from orbit.

Would take a few weeks... but eventually the whole of middle earth would be blasted from existance.

 

This was never a fair fight to begin with.

 

You know, the One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom. Or do you mean you only need one lightsaber to break through to Mount Doom? I also doubt that.

 

Do you want the transport vessel for orbital bombardment? As I said, there are very few spots that maybe could withstand it. Or do you want to deploy troops. If that's the case, about how many troops do you speak?

 

But you're right, it was never a fair fight to begin with, but it's not that unfair.

[Maaruin]

If he saw the Jedi were suffering, dying and empowering Sidious, he was also

 

But he didn't fall to tha dark side in Episode III because he knew about the dark side. So you think knowledge makes the difference?

 

20 years, from arrows and swords to SW level technology? I don't think so.

 

20 years from flying ships, nature manipulating rings, seeing stones and sensor swords to some technology comparable to SW if you can reverse engineer SW technology? Yes, I think so.

 

So it's different understanding of her character.

 

Maybe. But we also understand Yoda differently. Do you play Empire in SWTOR?

 

I believe anyone could shake when their loved ones were in great danger and there was no better solution. Nobody is pure light or dark.

 

Yes, but also anyone has enough light to reject the Dark Side. Galadriel falling is as likely as Sidious being redeemed.

 

It's mostly 0%.

 

What is mostly 0%? The chance to defend them against Sidious without falling to the Dark Side? Whay does falling to the dark side makes it different.

 

But it did and he should know clearly about it. He could simply say Vader went corrupted and Luke should be aware of the Dark Side.

 

I don't know. I think Luke hated Vader mainly for killing Obi-Wan and threatning his friends.

 

It's already worse, Vader was telling the truth about Obi Wan's lies except maybe the motive, Obi Wan simply said Vader killed Luke's father.

 

But the motive makes the biggest difference, I think. If Obi-Wan lies to protect Luke and Vader lies to corrupt him, it makes Vader's lie worse.

 

So did Luke, he knew Vader killed his father and his mentor.

 

Yeah, you're right. I take it back.

 

Kill his own father without any anger and hate? How? If he regret, he should try to save him.

 

It is possible to kill without anger and hate. It is especially possible if you somehow feel close to the person. Obi-Wan struggled to kill Anakin. In the end he didn't, but he also didn't only try to kill him.

 

They thought the Emperor is that stupid?

 

Now that I think about it, I don't know. In the movies Vader doesn't seem to want to bring Luke to the Emperor and Luke hopes he won't. But the Emperor insists so Vader does it. In the OT you sometimes get the impression the Emperor relies on Vader, could be an inconsitancy.

 

He was keep struggling

 

That's exactly what happens when you don't want to kill someone but know you have to. You don't feel anger or hate then.

 

It's not even close, we are comparing the ruler of a planet, leader(at least the public idol) of at least 1/3 of the galaxy VS ruler of a kingdom on a continent.

 

You didn't answer my questions:

 

Why is it more difficult to rule the US than a small country?

Was Kaan more important than Sadow?

If you need more skill the more territory you control, how can humans be able to rule galactic nations if it is already difficult to rule a country?

 

I don't think so.

 

Maybe a different definitions of "important".

 

Because Middle Earth is much smaller, if we make a crossover we have to think about it.

 

Of course we have to think about it. But if you remember, I spoke from a story telling perspective. Galadriel is more important for Middle Earth than Dooku is for Star Wars. So if you write a story, it would probably be the best to reflect that there.

 

So it's just speculation.

 

Of course it is. If someone consumed middle earth, there would be no LotR

 

 

How is it worse than let her people and Middle Earth doomed under Sauron's reign?

 

Because in the end they will suffer under her reign the same as under Sauron. So the only difference is now directly responsible.

 

As a leader, abandon her people to eternal suffering, empower a super evil ruler is not dark?

 

Imagine the following: Second world war. Nazi Germany wants invade your country. But they offer you to spare you if you (as a person) join them. They would make you the leader of their extermination campaign. What choice is darker?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Maaruin

[Eillack]

As another noted: Death Star

[Maaruin]

As another noted: Death Star

 

As another noted: Iluvatar.

[kaczuszka]

SW all the way!!

[Slowpokeking]

But he didn't fall to tha dark side in Episode III because he knew about the dark side. So you think knowledge makes the difference?

 

Because the Dark Side could not help him, and he knew it was dangerous, Galadriel didn't know that much about the Dark Side.

 

20 years from flying ships, nature manipulating rings, seeing stones and sensor swords to some technology comparable to SW if you can reverse engineer SW technology? Yes, I think so.

 

It's more possible for Sith to learn how to break their magic.

 

Maybe. But we also understand Yoda differently. Do you play Empire in SWTOR?

 

Yes but I don't like any of the Sith Lords or the Emperor.

 

Yes, but also anyone has enough light to reject the Dark Side. Galadriel falling is as likely as Sidious being redeemed.

 

What is mostly 0%? The chance to defend them against Sidious without falling to the Dark Side? Whay does falling to the dark side makes it different.

 

Elves VS his army of advanced technology and super weapon? No.

 

I don't know. I think Luke hated Vader mainly for killing Obi-Wan and threatning his friends.

 

And you see how much hate when he said Vader killed his father in EP V.

 

But the motive makes the biggest difference, I think. If Obi-Wan lies to protect Luke and Vader lies to corrupt him, it makes Vader's lie worse.

 

Obi Wan, was indeed, using Luke to fight his father, that's bad enough.

 

 

It is possible to kill without anger and hate. It is especially possible if you somehow feel close to the person. Obi-Wan struggled to kill Anakin. In the end he didn't, but he also didn't only try to kill him.

 

Why not redeem him without anger and hate? Deep regret would also come back and draw people into darkness.

 

Now that I think about it, I don't know. In the movies Vader doesn't seem to want to bring Luke to the Emperor and Luke hopes he won't. But the Emperor insists so Vader does it. In the OT you sometimes get the impression the Emperor relies on Vader, could be an inconsitancy.

 

Vader wanted to let the Emperor train Luke, then work with Luke to overthrow the Emperor.

 

That's exactly what happens when you don't want to kill someone but know you have to. You don't feel anger or hate then.

 

There is anger and hate to drive, and killing is not the only option.

 

 

Why is it more difficult to rule the US than a small country?

Was Kaan more important than Sadow?

If you need more skill the more territory you control, how can humans be able to rule galactic nations if it is already difficult to rule a country?

 

Bigger territory to manage.

More people and they came from different places, different demands.

Much more complexed diplomacy.

Different goal, US' goal was to keep itself as the NO. 1 power in the world, Greece...

 

And more, not much different than Dooku.

 

As for Sadow, he started a war that affected almost the whole known galaxy, if without this event, No.

 

Why not? The whole structure are better developed than real world's.

 

 

Of course we have to think about it. But if you remember, I spoke from a story telling perspective. Galadriel is more important for Middle Earth than Dooku is for Star Wars. So if you write a story, it would probably be the best to reflect that there.

 

Yes, but if you make a crossover, it's not like "Hey Aragorn is so important in LotR and so he should be superior than GG", you have to compare them directly since LotR didn't happen in a galaxy. Especially it got a lot to do with how big their power base is.

 

 

Because in the end they will suffer under her reign the same as under Sauron. So the only difference is now directly responsible.

 

Imagine the following: Second world war. Nazi Germany wants invade your country. But they offer you to spare you if you (as a person) join them. They would make you the leader of their extermination campaign. What choice is darker?

 

Before her total corruption, she could still do a lot.

No, it's like when the Nazi were invading, do you want to just get all killed, or use all your people to build weapon, make your own nation ruled an iron fist to increase the efficiency. It could work now, but maybe one day your own government will become as bad as the Nazi.

 

I'm gonna continue the work now.

[Maaruin]

Because the Dark Side could not help him, and he knew it was dangerous, Galadriel didn't know that much about the Dark Side.

 

Okay, as I said, if that's true, Yoda would take the ring.

But I think the Dark Side is the same in both universes.

 

It's more possible for Sith to learn how to break their magic.

 

True. If the Sith have enough time to research on middle earth, they could probably develope a ritual to do this. It migh be as complex as the though bomb, though.

 

Yes but I don't like any of the Sith Lords or the Emperor.

 

But you seem to like the Dark Side (it's only my impression).

 

Elves VS his army of advanced technology and super weapon? No.

 

Again: What does falling to the dark side change that?

 

And you see how much hate when he said Vader killed his father in EP V.

 

Yes, it adds to his hate. But it is not the main reason.

 

Obi Wan, was indeed, using Luke to fight his father, that's bad enough.

 

Luke volunteered to become a Jedi under Obi-Wan's guidance. To be a Jedi leads to these kind of things sometimes.

 

Why not redeem him without anger and hate? Deep regret would also come back and draw people into darkness.

There is anger and hate to drive, and killing is not the only option.

 

They had lost their hope for Vader. They thought he is irredeemable and killing him is the only option.

 

Vader wanted to let the Emperor train Luke, then work with Luke to overthrow the Emperor.

 

But why had the Emperor to remind him that he should bring Luke to him? In ROTJ it seemed like Vader didn't want to at first.

 

Luke's plan: redeeming Vader before him brings him to the Emperor

Yoda's and Obi-Wan's plan: attacking and killing Vader before he brings him to the Emperor.

 

Your points about a bigger country being harder to manage:

 

Bigger territory to manage. bigger bureaucracy, so it makes no difference

More people and they came from different places, different demands. Sometimes true, but also small countries can have very different people. I imagine Turkey horribly to govern because of different people groups.

Much more complexed diplomacy. No, diplomacy depends on the number of nations you interact with.

Different goal, US' goal was to keep itself as the NO. 1 power in the world, Greece......has to please the European Union. And we Germans don't make it easy for them. US don't need to please anyone.

 

And more, not much different than Dooku.

 

As for Sadow, he started a war that affected almost the whole known galaxy, if without this event, No.

 

See, size is not the only thing that matters.

 

Why not? The whole structure are better developed than real world's.

 

And that's the reason why controlling 1/3 of the galaxy doesn't require more skill than controlling a middle earth kingdom.

 

I can see Dooku being a more skilled in politics than her. Not because he controlles a bigger territory, but because he founded the CIS, which means he brought together several factions against the republic. Galadriel on the other hand has far more experience in general, though.

 

Yes, but if you make a crossover, it's not like "Hey Aragorn is so important in LotR and so he should be superior than GG", you have to compare them directly since LotR didn't happen in a galaxy. Especially it got a lot to do with how big their power base is.

 

Yes, but we don't know how strong Galadriel is compared to Dooku. We don't know how Force and magic interact and we don't know how much of the SW technology can be countered by magic. So if you set them against each other, I would adjust these unknown things to their importance.

 

I already said: Dooku's bigger power base will grant his victory. Galadriel might repell the first attack single handedly. Maybe even barely repell the second. But in the end, SW has far more resources.

 

 

Before her total corruption, she could still do a lot.

No, it's like when the Nazi were invading, do you want to just get all killed, or use all your people to build weapon, make your own nation ruled an iron fist to increase the efficiency. It could work now, but maybe one day your own government will become as bad as the Nazi.

 

But if you know for sure that your government will become as bad as the Nazi, would you still do it?

 

It would only work if she is completly ignorant about the dark side. I doubt that, since he has a lot of life experience. She saw many people being corrupted. She know how evil works. She know how evil magic works. If it is the same universe, I doubt she won't realize what it means to become dark side.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay, as I said, if that's true, Yoda would take the ring.

But I think the Dark Side is the same in both universes.

 

Probably.

 

 

But you seem to like the Dark Side (it's only my impression).

 

My first and favorite char is a Chiss Sniper and mostly neutral.

 

Well, it's indeed much easier to fall to the Dark Side rather than being redeemed from the Darkness.

 

Again: What does falling to the dark side change that?

 

Work with Dooku to fight Sidious first, then try a way control the Force, let her people wield the power of the Force, if they could find a way to make them all sensitives, it's more logical to them than develop the technology.

 

Yes, it adds to his hate. But it is not the main reason.

 

Yes, it made him darker.

 

Luke volunteered to become a Jedi under Obi-Wan's guidance. To be a Jedi leads to these kind of things sometimes.

 

That does not mean Obi Wan could lie about that.

 

They had lost their hope for Vader. They thought he is irredeemable and killing him is the only option.

 

But Luke didn't, and try to convince him to do it is wrong.

 

But why had the Emperor to remind him that he should bring Luke to him? In ROTJ it seemed like Vader didn't want to at first.

 

I remember in EP VI's novel it said about he wanted to let the Emperor train him.

 

Bigger territory to manage. bigger bureaucracy, so it makes no difference

More people and they came from different places, different demands. Sometimes true, but also small countries can have very different people. I imagine Turkey horribly to govern because of different people groups.

Much more complexed diplomacy. No, diplomacy depends on the number of nations you interact with.

Different goal, US' goal was to keep itself as the NO. 1 power in the world, Greece......has to please the European Union. And we Germans don't make it easy for them. US don't need to please anyone.

 

US had to ineract with the whole world a lot to keep its position, sure it does not need to please anyone but it needs to stay on top.

 

 

See, size is not the only thing that matters.

 

And that's the reason why controlling 1/3 of the galaxy doesn't require more skill than controlling a middle earth kingdom.

 

 

No but it's a very important factor and the territory of Dooku and Galadriel is way too big. Like an island compare to the US. Even if we talk about influence, Dooku surely is much bigger.

 

Yes, but we don't know how strong Galadriel is compared to Dooku. We don't know how Force and magic interact and we don't know how much of the SW technology can be countered by magic. So if you set them against each other, I would adjust these unknown things to their importance.

 

Dooku's army owns Galadriel a lot a lot on both the numbers and technology, that's important enough, and he was good at both the Force and melee combat.

 

 

But if you know for sure that your government will become as bad as the Nazi, would you still do it?

 

It would only work if she is completly ignorant about the dark side. I doubt that, since he has a lot of life experience. She saw many people being corrupted. She know how evil works. She know how evil magic works. If it is the same universe, I doubt she won't realize what it means to become dark side.

 

Maybe, since there is no better choices.

 

 

OK I really have to start my work on the fanfic. Later.

[AhsokaTanorules]

A Horde of Esh-ka could wipe out Middle Earth.

[Maaruin]

Well, it's indeed much easier to fall to the Dark Side rather than being redeemed from the Darkness.

 

Sometimes it is, but I think the older you are the harder it becomes to turn you from your path. Yoda and Galadriel should be very hard to turn.

 

Work with Dooku to fight Sidious first, then try a way control the Force, let her people wield the power of the Force, if they could find a way to make them all sensitives, it's more logical to them than develop the technology.

 

But couldn't they work together without her falling to the dark side?

 

That does not mean Obi Wan could lie about that.

 

He told the truth from a certain paoint of view. What should he have said, that Clone troopers killed his father? He though Luke wasn't ready, which was true.

 

But Luke didn't, and try to convince him to do it is wrong.

 

If I remember correctly, the conversation was like this:

 

Luke: "But I can't kill my own father."

Obi-Wan: "Than the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

 

He says what he believes is true there. Luke doesn't even come up with the idea to redeem Vader.

 

I remember in EP VI's novel it said about he wanted to let the Emperor train him.

 

Okay, I haven't read it.

 

US had to ineract with the whole world a lot to keep its position, sure it does not need to please anyone but it needs to stay on top.

 

No but it's a very important factor and the territory of Dooku and Galadriel is way too big. Like an island compare to the US. Even if we talk about influence, Dooku surely is much bigger.

 

Dooku's army owns Galadriel a lot a lot on both the numbers and technology, that's important enough, and he was good at both the Force and melee combat.

 

True in everything except Force. Well, yes, he was good, but not extraordinary, while Galadriel was one of the most powerful magic users in the third age.

 

Maybe, since there is no better choices.

 

And I think in this case it is better to die fighting than become the evil yourself.

[Maaruin]

A Horde of Esh-ka could wipe out Middle Earth.

 

Well, since the Esh-ka challanged the Rakata, I might agree with that. If you mean "A Horde of the greatest threat for the galaxy in ancient times could wipe out Middle Earth". You mean a large horde, I guess, several thousands, don't you?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Maaruin

[Slowpokeking]

Ok I'm just gonna answer 1 question for now since it's about the actual plot.

 

But couldn't they work together without her falling to the dark side?

 

Since like most of the other races in SW, Force sensitive is just a small percent and the elves' connection with the Force, like other races of LotR's world, are weak overall. Even herself didn't have enough Midi-chlorians. So to let her and her people be able to wield its power, she had to work on some experiment to raise the Midi-chlorians count of herself first then others. And of course it got a lot to do with the Dark Side since the Jedi and the Light Side prefer to go the natural way. They also wanted to capture Saruman since he was working on it to let himself wield more power of the Force.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[Maaruin]

Ok I'm just gonna answer 1 question for now since it's about the actual plot.

 

 

 

Since like most of the other races in SW, Force sensitive is just a small percent and the elves' connection with the Force, like other races of LotR's world, are weak overall. Even herself didn't have enough Midi-chlorians. So to let her and her people be able to wield its power, she had to work on some experiment to raise the Midi-chlorians count of herself first then others. And of course it got a lot to do with the Dark Side since the Jedi and the Light Side prefer to go the natural way. They also wanted to capture Saruman since he was working on it to let himself wield more power of the Force.

 

Okay, that's actually something I could see happening to her. She is a Noldor after all and it is very similar to Sauron convincing the elves to forge the rings.

 

Personally, I would work with magic=force, which would make the elves a Force sensitive species like the Miraluka.

 

If you work with magic being something distict from the force, Sidious should also try to get his hands on one of the elven rings. It will give him power he never though he could have.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay, that's actually something I could see happening to her. She is a Noldor after all and it is very similar to Sauron convincing the elves to forge the rings.

 

Personally, I would work with magic=force, which would make the elves a Force sensitive species like the Miraluka.

 

If you work with magic being something distict from the force, Sidious should also try to get his hands on one of the elven rings. It will give him power he never though he could have.

 

I prefer the Force and LotR's magic is totally different sets of power, both sides had to learn from each other. That's why the villains were so interested.

 

Sidious and Dooku's biggest goal through study the magic is to help them achieve immortality, maybe they will take a look upon the ring, but it's not their main goal.

[Maaruin]

I prefer the Force and LotR's magic is totally different sets of power, both sides had to learn from each other. That's why the villains were so interested.

 

Sidious and Dooku's biggest goal through study the magic is to help them achieve immortality, maybe they will take a look upon the ring, but it's not their main goal.

 

Well, I think middle earth isn't the right place for this. There was only one event were someone who didn't have imortallity tried to get it. Numenor's attempt to invade the undying lands. It didn't work out well for them.

 

The rings can lengthen your life significantly, though.

[Slowpokeking]

They wanted to mix the power of magic and the Dark Side to achieve it, it may not be the best place but they still wanted to try it, at least drain the life force from those races of long life span to keep them up.

 

Dooku could also have some romance, since Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan and Anakin all have.

[Maaruin]

They wanted to mix the power of magic and the Dark Side to achieve it, it may not be the best place but they still wanted to try it, at least drain the life force from those races of long life span to keep them up.

 

Dooku could also have some romance, since Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan and Anakin all have.

 

Okay, maybe that would work.

 

Who should be Dooku's romance? Galadriel is married. Eowyn?

[Slowpokeking]

I don't know, will think about it later.

[Slowpokeking]

OK I think I want to let Dooku have romance with Galadriel, maybe after he was able to return youth after draining other's life force.

[Maaruin]

OK I think I want to let Dooku have romance with Galadriel, maybe after he was able to return youth after draining other's life force.

 

Than you have to kill off Celeborn earlier.

[Slowpokeking]

Than you have to kill off Celeborn earlier.

 

Let her kill her own husband as she walks into the dark path.

[Maaruin]

Let her kill her own husband as she walks into the dark path.

 

That would be very hard to believe, I think. I'd say let him go to war against Sidious and die, showing how powerful Sidious/his Forces are.