Healers are fine. Perfectly fine. In fact probably a little more than fine.

[Superawesomerman]

Only if that one healer can do nothing else. No damage to their attacker. No healing to any team mates. No HoTs on anyone while they are under attack no nothing.

 

snrk.

 

why bring a healer at all? this would make the tank + heal dynamic 100% useless.

 

i have a really hard time gauging how serious walsh is when he makes comments like these. on the one hand, his diction is reasonably clear and concise, but the underlying logic is just mind bogglingly wrong.

 

how about this instead, all classes gain this at valor rank 2:

 

BEARHUG:

range 99m, instant, channeled, 15 minute duration, no cooldown.

Stuns your target for the the duration. While casting bearhug, you and your target are immune to all interrupts, negative effects, damage, and dispels. if bearhug is cancelled early for any reason, you are unable to take any action for 2 minutes.

 

there, now *any* class can fairly cancel out any other class. i suppose tanks can abuse this with guard. oh shoot, now stealth teams will have a huge advantage, cant have that. better remove stealth from the game. i was going to continue on this vein, but this no longer interests me.

[DaedalusV]

I'm not say Nerf healers but, I will say buff abilities that reduce healing. I apply my 20% healing debuff with the way expertise scales now that would just make it to where a healer is just healing at 100% the debuff should be at least at 40-50% reduced healing i mean if i dump an entire watchman rotation with relics,adrenals,and 15% dmg increase with zen up they should die just that simple and when i do this rotation 3 times on one healer it reminds why i left in the 1st place.

 

Don't get me started on powertech BH. I stasis-ed one in the Acid Pit in Hutball for 5 secs and he took no dmg that **** almost flat out kills me when i get cc'd in it?! Jjust balance don't Nerf!

 

TBH you will never be good at pvp in this game, not if you don't change your viewpoint drastically. PvP in SWTOR is a team oriented, objective based affair. You seem to think it's a deathmatch game.

Consider this:

If you, as a watchman spec sentinel, was able to flat out kill a healer in 1 or two rotations, then healers wouldn't be viable AT ALL. A skilled and geared healer should not get instagibbed just because someone wants shiny kills.

 

MAybe you should just leave the game again since it doesn't cater to your playstyle (FPS) Go frag people in CoD or something

[fungihoujo]

Only if that one healer can do nothing else. No damage to their attacker. No healing to any team mates. No HoTs on anyone while they are under attack no nothing.

 

Why? What explanation? Just because you have no idea how to do anything but tunnel vision, everyone else should? Frankly- a good dps will actually prevent a healer from healing anyone else- generally from even standing still to heal themselves.

 

If you can't keep a healer from healing others- problem's between the chair and keyboard... to quote some good marauder friends of ours who have been spamming that phrase since 1.2 to anyone who dares to talk about marauders... but that's what this is- you need to deflect attention from marauders- and spamming 'healers are OP!' threads is your genius plan for doing it.

 

Clever prof, clever.

[Laforet]

you're a good friend, i admire your loyalty to mikedee.

 

I wont flame you because you do seem like a reasonable fellow but i thinks its pretty clear that 20/20 is the code for healing trance / kinect collapse spec. The leftovers man, the leftovers.

 

Ptechs "crazy" mobility comes from the fact that everything they do is insta cast (so they never stop, they dont need to) combined with the fact that their spammable attacks have slow blend on it. Besides ptechs, only watchmans have slows blend in their strong attacks, IF THEY SPEC FOR IT. All other classes have to lose a gcd (and resources) just to slow people. Even tho, a watchman cant do it from 30 meters away.

 

So its basically it, you never cast, you never stop, and your most spammable attacks (hammer shots + ion pulse) keep people snared 90% of the time. Thats crazy mobility. I know, i have played one.

 

About scoundrels, yeah i think you got it right when you say they cant do stuff for more than 30 meters. I will give you that. But the whole point of healing isnt put cc out (not that we shouldnt do it, we should!) its keeping people from death. While the "raw" healing power of a sawbones is comparable (or even lower) than a sorc, they are masters in keeping people from death, masters. Emergency medpack + emergent emengencies is, bar nothing, the strongest counter burst in the game, nothing a sage or commando does will ever be comparable to it.

 

On top of that, scoundrels can do it while moving, most important, they can do it while being focused, which we cant. Once mike starts to die i HAVE TO stop to heal him. When i stop i get caught, when sages get caugth they get dead, they get dead very fast. If i was a scoundrels i would just spam a 1 button insta heal to stabilize him and move on.

 

While scoundrel cant do **** less than 10m, all their CCs are instant. They have an instant AoE mez which is the best tool in the game to counter melee dogpile, which is one of the most common strategy against healers. =p.

 

Scoundrles also have stealth, which stops them from being focused early, it also allows better posistioning. Scoundrels can also sap people before the fight starts. Its not my fault if facerroling scoundrels dont use this, but its there.

 

Scoundrels also have better resources than our hybrid build. You see disturbance spam is fine and all but its not tailored to budget a healers needs (check the costs of dps spell against healing spells), you will end up without mana in a frantic long fight, the scoundrel wont. On top of pugnacity which is neat they can basically reset their energy with cool head. And they can do everything while on the run and ininterrupted.

 

Also, good scoundrels will go hybrid, they will go emergency medpack / flanking, making them have pesky 15% run speed 100% of the time. Its not my fault bad scoundrels spec 31 points.

 

Counter bursting, good mobility, powerfull heals on the move, utility (smuggle, stealth, sap), energy management, they have everything better than we have. Everything. If you stop to really analise the POTENTIAL of the scoundrel class you WILL see that their insta heals are better than ours and, guess what, after the deliverance/conveyance fiasco, their CASTED heals are also BETTER AND FASTER than ours (not that they need it).

 

Its funny that you excuse for sawbones not being better than sage is that we can stun people from 30m. Come on dude stunning is not healing, im not talking about stunning im talking about PVP COUNTER BURST HEALING AND HEALER SURVIVABILITY, a field that their class has everything and we have nothing.

 

Why would you focus your class around stunning people at 30 meters anyway? If hes at 30meters he is ranged, just LoS the mofo and save your stun for a pyrotech, believe me, you WILL need it. =p

Edited June 20, 2012 by Laforet

[Varicite]

I wont flame you because you do seem like a reasonable fellow but i thinks its pretty clear that 20/20 is the code for healing trance / kinect collapse spec. The leftovers man, the leftovers.

 

Ptechs "crazy" mobility comes from the fact that everything they do is insta cast (so they never stop, they dont need to) combined with the fact that their spammable attacks have slow blend on it. Besides ptechs, only watchmans have slows blend in their strong attacks, IF THEY SPEC FOR IT. All other classes have to lose a gcd (and resources) just to slow people. Even tho, a watchman cant do it from 30 meters away.

 

Are you under the impression that Powertechs don't spec for the snare on Combustible Gas Cylinder AND tying it to Flame Burst?

 

And Powertechs can't reliably snare people at 30 meters away, it's just a proc chance (16%). And even if it does proc, it lasts for TWO seconds so they'll have to close to 10m to actually KEEP you snared.

 

So its basically it, you never cast, you never stop, and your most spammable attacks (hammer shots + ion pulse) keep people snared 90% of the time. Thats crazy mobility. I know, i have played one.

 

If you've played one, why would you make such a big deal about Marauders having to spec for their (much better) snare when Powertechs also have to do this? <.<

 

I'm not sure if you noticed this when you were "playing" your Powertech, but Marauders only need 2 talent points to make their snare work on Rupture, and it lasts for 6 seconds (and gets reset constantly by Annihilate or Vicious Slash). They ALSO get a baseline snare that is the same strength and lasts for twice as long.

 

Powertechs get NO snare baseline.

 

In comparison, Powertechs spend 8 talent points (Bursting Flame, Sweltering Heat, Superheated Gas) to fully talent their snare, and it lasts 2 seconds.

 

What level is your Powertech? Like 10? <.<

Edited June 20, 2012 by Varicite

[Superawesomerman]

Laforet, you also seem reasonable, and i appreciate your effort in not flaming me. But you have to realize how useful having a 30 yard cc and interrupt are. Also, if you're playing correctly (ie partially offensive) you will basically never run out of force. Scoundrels, once they are forced into spamming their 1 casted heal, go energy dry fairly quickly, and you cannot keep someone up merely by using emergency med pack (its akin to benevolence).

 

I get where you're coming from with Pts being mobile, but it's more a function of them being able to hib from 30 yards. I think reducing it to 10 would stop a lot of the crying on the boards. Otherwise they have all instant attacks like every other melee, and no gap closers other than grapple. I have an alt vanguard, so I find it faintly ridiculous that I function so well at ranged.

[Superawesomerman]

I also made this point elsewhere, but scoundrel healing is like playing resto druid without cyclone. Playing hybrid seer is like playing a whole rmp team by yourself. Being able to seamlessly switch from offense to defense and back again is, if not better, certainly a lot more fun.

[Ballzz]

I think the reality that causes consternation is how easy it is to chew up a healer being left to dangle in the wind versus how darn near impossible it is to get a healer that is being well supported by guard/taunt/peel/cross-heals.

 

Because of this when a healer receives improper support he feels extremely ineffective thus leading to the concerns healers are throwing out, while at the flip when he does receive proper support dps of the opposing team feel like they are bashing their heads against a wall.

 

 

As someone who makes it a point to go healer-hunting when on a dps character I know how much support plays into it over just skill/gear from facing the same names in multiple different situations, being able to tear them apart with relative is at times while being virtually unable to kill them at others.

 

 

 

This is probably the biggest area that a well-coordinated team separates itself. This leads to very little middle ground. Quite often they either get the support and are brutal to take down, or don't and get blown up.

 

^^ This. I think this is one of the best descriptions of the problem with healers now that I have read. They are doing well in certain circumstances but fail miserably in others. They are just not self-sufficient in any way unless maybe spec'd as hybrid. Pure healers are non-functional without heavy support.

 

It's also amusing hearing the OP and others talk about how much trouble they have killing healers when the output X amount of dmg. Dmg output is one thing but the key to killing healers is interrupts not dmg output. If you have multiple healers cross healing each other and you can't kill a healer..that's as it should be. It's no different than multiple DPS on a single healer. You don't expect a single healer to withstand multiple DPS for long..why should a single DPS be able to overcome multiple healers? If it's multiple DPS vs. multiple healers it gets more complicated of course.

[Laforet]

I also made this point elsewhere, but scoundrel healing is like playing resto druid without cyclone. Playing hybrid seer is like playing a whole rmp team by yourself. Being able to seamlessly switch from offense to defense and back again is, if not better, certainly a lot more fun.

 

Take out cic yeah but put in flash grenade and a sap. Also give them NS everytime someone is sub30%. Thats a scoundrel sawbones, a freaking druid with sap and free nature swiftness everytime someone is close to death. Any druid in the world would make that trade.

 

Playing seer hybrid is like playing a disc priest with no PS, a shadow priests bubble and NO MANA BURN. And i know all about disc priests, ive played it to gladiator in four seasons, mostly in RMPs and lately in kitty/hunter/disc (this one is a lot of fun).

 

We do play offensively, any healer who doesnt play offensively in pvp isnt doing this job. I woulnt get past 1.5k if i didnt play offensively. Force lift is a bless (sheep lol). But we have no tools to play offensively when under pressure. And whoever played arena to its limits knows that a team which is gets too much pressure and doesnt have the way to relieve it will end being defeated, give or take time.

 

Relieving pressure as a healer equals having godmode insta cast stabilizers or having a damage reduction CD (aka Pain Supression).

 

But i really think you underestimate the power of emergency medpack, it does not costs resources and its regrants tactical advantage when they use it on sub30%, its instant, they can cast it while drifting in and out of LoS

which diminishes the window of opportunity to CC them. Emergency medpack is basically a IWIN button. Its the textbook definition of a IWIN button, really. Any druid in WoW would trade cic for something like that.

 

Sawbones ARE OP, and its because of how emergency medpack works, its a IWIN button. I agree with you that a well played hybrid sage can be very annoying, but the easyness of just clicking that IWIN button when people are dieing makes or breaks PvP.

 

They makin our breaking.

 

Good sawbones will only show in rateds. To our luck, most sawbones do not spec or realise the potential of their class the same way most sorcs spec 31 points corruption.

 

But a well specced / well played sawbones is an unstopable force of nature at the moment.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Laforet

[Superawesomerman]

Hmmm, i guess we'll have to see. The edge humping with empack does sound rather op now that I think about it, but any break in spam when the target is at 30% would seem fatal.

[Laforet]

Hmmm, i guess we'll have to see. The edge humping with empack does sound rather op now that I think about it, but any break in spam when the target is at 30% would seem fatal.

 

It would, but thats why good players are needed to play heals.

 

But i think we can reach a compromise

 

Ptechs needs a tone down

 

Marauders arent OP althought they need one less CD (make choke a jugg only cd dammit) but dont touch their damage or cloak of pain / rebuke.

 

Sage heal is fun, we are flashy, we are the best, but we get overshadowed by the way emergency medpack works.

 

If you let a sage free we will heal people sub30, but we will prolly have to open a window to cast deliverance OR wreack our force with benevolence, PLUS its a cast, its self rooting, interruptable.

 

Sawbones can do it while pillar humping and giggling (ok they dont giggle anymore) but its too easy.

 

It also never stops, it costs nothing, it regrants upper hand.

 

The rest of their mechanics im ok with, really. They have their funk we have our flashy.

 

Also our buddy commandos need a bone. They really need more fuel poor sods.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Laforet

[Superawesomerman]

PT railshot range reduced to 10 m

 

conveyance has two stacks.

 

Force fade increased to 90 second cooldown

 

Uhm, that's all I can think of.

 

edit: increase disturbance dmg by 10%

 

and set empack spam at 25% instead of 30%

Edited June 20, 2012 by Superawesomerman

[SinnedQWERTY]

:cool:

 

nm

Edited June 20, 2012 by SinnedQWERTY

[Varicite]

PT railshot range reduced to 10 m

 

Hehe, I wonder if people realize what this actually means.

 

It means Pyro would be receiving a shiny new talent to replace Incendiary Missile in their tree, as it only exists to allow them to Rail Shot at 30m (the only PT tree that has this option, btw).

 

And as Incendiary Missile is arguably the WORST ability in the entire game (terrible damage over a long period of time, prohibitively high resource cost), pretty much ANYTHING that you replace it w/ would be a buff to Pyro.

 

Nerfing RS to 10m means you inadvertently want to buff Pyro in some other fashion.

 

Personally, if I were to choose a way to nerf Pyro burst... I'd take a look at Explosive Fuel first and go from there.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Varicite

[Superawesomerman]

Hehe, I wonder if people realize what this actually means.

 

It means Pyro would be receiving a shiny new talent to replace Incendiary Missile in their tree, as it only exists to allow them to Rail Shot at 30m (the only PT tree that has this option, btw).

 

And as Incendiary Missile is arguably the WORST ability in the entire game (terrible damage over a long period of time, prohibitively high resource cost), pretty much ANYTHING that you replace it w/ would be a buff to Pyro.

 

Nerfing RS to 10m means you inadvertently want to buff Pyro in some other fashion.

 

Personally, if I were to choose a way to nerf Pyro burst... I'd take a look at Explosive Fuel first and go from there.

 

shrug, you could nerf the range and not buff anything in compensation.. I just dislike how Pyro is not a melee class,

[Astarica]

The Op healer has to be revamped. Right now there's really no reason to use the other casted heal that uses up a TA once you get Surgical Probe, yet without Surgical Probe an Op has almost nothing worth casting on someone under 30% since Kolto Infusion gets interrupted right away and the other cast heal, they actually want you to use that as that consumes a TA.

 

I think you'd have to make Surgical Probe use 15 energy, and make the other heal that uses TA heal for twice as much as what it currently does. That way you either use up a TA for a huge heal, or use it for a cheap heal that's costly on energy but you can spam it and it's never interruptible. Of course that'd be a pretty serious change and I'm likely going to either totally kill the class or make them overpowered in other ways, but that's why I'm not an actual designer. The guys who get paid for this can figure out the exact numbers to tweak, but Surgical Probe should not flat out replace another heal you have.

[fungihoujo]

The Op healer has to be revamped. Right now there's really no reason to use the other casted heal that uses up a TA once you get Surgical Probe, yet without Surgical Probe an Op has almost nothing worth casting on someone under 30% since Kolto Infusion gets interrupted right away and the other cast heal, they actually want you to use that as that consumes a TA.

 

I think you'd have to make Surgical Probe use 15 energy, and make the other heal that uses TA heal for twice as much as what it currently does. That way you either use up a TA for a huge heal, or use it for a cheap heal that's costly on energy but you can spam it and it's never interruptible. Of course that'd be a pretty serious change and I'm likely going to either totally kill the class or make them overpowered in other ways, but that's why I'm not an actual designer. The guys who get paid for this can figure out the exact numbers to tweak, but Surgical Probe should not flat out replace another heal you have.

 

OP healers don't need a nerf at all- there needs to be something done about the viability of the other two healers- namely, either ability to heal under pressure, or ability to move under pressure. Defensive CDs would go a long way.

 

Right now- healers are very powerful when you let them freecast... but that's no different from DPS- heck, even arsenal mercs, the absolute worst spec in the game- are awesome when you let them freecast.

 

When you get in their face though- most dps classes (not ars mercs obviously) are perfectly fine, and they're also perfectly adept at closing distances for the melee ones- short CDs on leap, snares, roots, and generally a second way to close gaps, and speed buffs. They can keep damaging while moving- but other than ops, healers can't keep healing while moving, and they can't stay still with someone on them.

 

Basically- when left unchecked, DPS and healing both are unstoppable- when checked, healer viability is what drops drastically.

 

Only real saving grace is that most dps don't know how to focus, CC, interrupt or even do damage that well- hence, threads like this popping up.

[Superawesomerman]

I rather liked the 1.2 ttk change tbh. I figured out a good way to thrive as a healer and had fun killing noobs even faster. But I agree that some change needs to be done to probe to not allow them infinite instant heals for free while regenning energy.

[Ssfbistimg]

Any healing a DPS Sorc/Sage gets is because they used Force Armor/Static Barrier on themselves/teammates or they used their channeled heal skills. These are all abilities that they have to cast and use a global cooldown to activate, not just free heals, which is what you seem to be implying that they are.

 

obviously u dont play a balance sage. 70% of my healing comes from my dots critting. I have 49% crit with my smuggler buff. That means i get 2% of my health returned every 2nd tick of my dots. and I dot people constantly.

[Aroneus]

Well, healers are perfectly balanced at the momenet. We are not OP or under powered. I'll agree with you on that point. There is a big learning curve, however, to healing. One can't just respec healing and hope to do a good job. Unfortunatly, Bioware doesn't give any incentive to be a healer, especially in pvp. Come on, 1-3 MvP votes which basically means 1-3 extra wz commendations? Thats so usful to getting War Hero....

 

And that's only if you are lucky enough to get with a group of folks who recognize that healing is worth an MVP.

The issue isn't under/over power. It's that if you are effective as a healer you aren't going to get much for it.

[matslarson]

obviously u dont play a balance sage. 70% of my healing comes from my dots critting. I have 49% crit with my smuggler buff. That means i get 2% of my health returned every 2nd tick of my dots. and I dot people constantly.

 

I play a Madness Sorc, which is the mirror, and you're seriously underestimating your bubble. It's 1/5 of your health bar in an instant cast ability and you should be bubbling your whole team whenever you can.

[Knockerz]

Well, healers are perfectly balanced at the momenet. We are not OP or under powered. I'll agree with you on that point. There is a big learning curve, however, to healing. One can't just respec healing and hope to do a good job. Unfortunatly, Bioware doesn't give any incentive to be a healer, especially in pvp. Come on, 1-3 MvP votes which basically means 1-3 extra wz commendations? Thats so usful to getting War Hero....

 

It's easier if said player has played a healer in a game like wow before.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Knockerz

[Renita]

And that's only if you are lucky enough to get with a group of folks who recognize that healing is worth an MVP.

The issue isn't under/over power. It's that if you are effective as a healer you aren't going to get much for it.

 

I don't get why people get so hung up on MVP votes. People will vote for who they want to. The incentive for being a healer is its fun. If its not fun for you, then you should not heal. Generally healing is more fun when you play with friends who will protect you. Healing often feels like tanking in pvp, but that is why I like it.

[Never_Hesitate]

I got news for you, Bounty Hunter/Trooper Healers that cannot be interrupted are fine too. Sages are COMPLETELY FINE and in fact I was spending a lot of time trying to kill one who would zip away and kite me around all through the Warzone. Every time I almost had him he made sure he was close enough to team mates who could guard him, taunt me, and focus fire me down.

 

Sages are fine right now. It is players who have the problems currently. Not the classes.

 

Sages and Sorcs aren't fine.

1. We don't have any def cd's.

2. We don't have any burst heal anymore

3. We can't heal while moving.

 

So where are we fine again?

 

Ah, with our aoe we can get big heal numbers, which doesn't help the ball carrier for example.

Sure we can sprint away, but after we casted one heal you're there again.

[fungihoujo]

Sages and Sorcs aren't fine.

1. We don't have any def cd's.

2. We don't have any burst heal anymore

3. We can't heal while moving.

 

So where are we fine again?

 

Ah, with our aoe we can get big heal numbers, which doesn't help the ball carrier for example.

Sure we can sprint away, but after we casted one heal you're there again.

 

Remember that the AoE heal is in a spec all pvp healing sorcs don't have... or more accurately- there's no such thing as a good pvp healing sorc- there's only healing sorc hybrids.