SDA_Slaine Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) I raised this issue in game via a support ticket, and was asked by an in game agent to post this on the forums so that a developer may see this and investigate. The Mercenary Bounty Hunter as a healing class is just no longer a viable option. I have noticed a steady decline of this class as a competitive option on my server, so much so that there are now only myself and 1 other War Hero geared Merc Healer operating. I dont know whether its because we have been overlooked, unbuffed, or that every other class has been buffed, but in most games where there are OP healers and sorc healers, I am getting around the 300k Mark and they are getting around 500K. In alot of cases those healers of other classes are alot less geared than myself. This is the only class I have played since pre launch (85 Valor on an undersubscribed (light) server) and I have tried every combination of play styles, strats and tweaks possible to compete, and the bottom line is the class cant cut it. If there is not going to be any intention of buffing the merc healer class in the future - just delete it, and give me the option to reclass as a powertech or something useful. I noticed no mention of any tweaks for the 1.3 patch for the merc healers. Its as if there are so few playing, that the developers are not aware of a misbalance. Fingers crossed. Peace out. Edited June 11, 2012 by SDA_Slaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsyy Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I raised this issue in game via a support ticket, and was asked by an in game agent to post this on the forums so that a developer may see this and investigate. The Mercenary Bounty Hunter as a healing class is just no longer a viable option. I have noticed a steady decline of this class as a competitive option on my server, so much so that there are now only myself and 1 other War Hero geared Merc Healer operating. I dont know whether its because we have been overlooked, unbuffed, or that every other class has been buffed, but in most games where there are imp agents, and sith inquisitor healers, I am getting around the 300k Mark and they are getting around 500K. In alot of cases those healers of other classes are alot less geared than myself. This is the only class I have played since pre launch (85 Valor on an undersubscribed (light) server) and I have tried every combination of play styles, strats and tweaks possible to compete, and the bottom line is the class cant cut it. If there is not going to be any intention of buffing the merc healer class in the future - just delete it, and give me the option to reclass as a powertech or something useful. I noticed no mention of any tweaks for the 1.3 patch for the merc healers. Its as if there are so few playing, that the developers are not aware of a misbalance. Fingers crossed. Peace out. this go's for sages too mate they not very good healers no more Smugglers and troopers heals can and now out power on sage healing thats why most sages on my server are now full spec DPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DkSharktooth Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I raised this issue in game via a support ticket, and was asked by an in game agent to post this on the forums so that a developer may see this and investigate. The Mercenary Bounty Hunter as a healing class is just no longer a viable option. I have noticed a steady decline of this class as a competitive option on my server, so much so that there are now only myself and 1 other War Hero geared Merc Healer operating. I dont know whether its because we have been overlooked, unbuffed, or that every other class has been buffed, but in most games where there are imp agents, and sith inquisitor healers, I am getting around the 300k Mark and they are getting around 500K. In alot of cases those healers of other classes are alot less geared than myself. This is the only class I have played since pre launch (85 Valor on an undersubscribed (light) server) and I have tried every combination of play styles, strats and tweaks possible to compete, and the bottom line is the class cant cut it. If there is not going to be any intention of buffing the merc healer class in the future - just delete it, and give me the option to reclass as a powertech or something useful. I noticed no mention of any tweaks for the 1.3 patch for the merc healers. Its as if there are so few playing, that the developers are not aware of a misbalance. Fingers crossed. Peace out. Merc healers have a high skill cap because they have so little utility. All other classes have alot more and alot better utility than mercs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Merc healers have a high skill cap because they have so little utility. All other classes have alot more and alot better utility than mercs. That makes zero sense. The less there is variability, the less there is need for skill rather than just mechanistic whack-a-mole gameplay. Pre 1.2 mercs benefited from skill to maximize their buffs, burst and thus overall healing. Post 1.2 it is whack-a-mole, it is even arguable that using the gas for full length can be detrimental, which should not even be an arguable topic TBH, but it actually is. Currently merc healing boils down to: refresh during gas KS if it is off, spam HS on different targets during gas, use KM if 3+ persons can be hit for healing (arguably 2.5 persons, meaning a risky "may hit 3rd person" is a valid target), HS on cooldown, RS if you have the buff up and lack gas charges, and finally RS without buff only if all above are not valid, and you are <30 heat. There is zero divergence from that. It is humanized botting plain and simple, and totally devoid of skill, since frankly the output is poor enough to pretty much always have someone to heal anyways ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briah Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) 565K healing - Taken on June 4th, 2012 of my merc hjealer in lvl 50 pvp. Valour is rank 70 and I only have two pieces of war hero gear: http://i48.tinypic.com/25ian3q.jpg You can see another merc healer with a little under 500K healing. Edited June 10, 2012 by Briah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvershadows Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 In a mix of RECRUIT and Battlemaster gear... I'm not seeing this issue, I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pureeffinmetal Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Player A Playing an Operative: Operatives are not viable healers! Player B Playing a Sorcerer: Sorcerers are not viable healers! Player C Playing a Mercenary: Mercs are not viable healers! Hm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmoyers Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 http://imgur.com/F9ous -- 656k heals No trouble pushing 600k when freecasting. When I'm playing objectives and under pressure, easily pushing 300+ 4/5 BM, 1 War Hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDA_Slaine Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Im talking about full groups wearing War Hero gear vs each other. I dont know what gear/skill the people you are playing with/against on your servers. For all I know the Alliance on your servers may totally suck, or the team you are up against is completely outclassed by gear/skill. I am talking about even teams of similarly skilful players, wearing full WH gear and the ability of the Merc Healer to out heal the other classes on the same team, who are also full WH geared. The Merc healer can NOT out heal the other classes. Showing me random photobucket images of you getting 500 to 600+ means nothing, unless of course your telling me that everyone was full WH geared and the teams were evenly matched? When my team has been full WH geared, but we have gone up against lesser geared teams, and I have been the only healer; I too have scored 600k in a game where I have been guarded, and protected by high dps. That is not the issue here. Unless you are categorically telling me that in the scenario I have laid out that Merc healers are as good as the other classes? and if that is the case, why are merc healers so few on servers full of sorc and op healers? Edited June 11, 2012 by SDA_Slaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaphael Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) If there is not going to be any intention of buffing the merc healer class in the future - just delete it, and give me the option to reclass as a powertech or something useful. Contrary to popular belief on the forums at the launch of 1.2, they are still perfectly fine in PvE... Edited June 11, 2012 by Rhaphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Contrary to popular belief on the forums at the launch of 1.2, they are still perfectly fine in PvE... If by fine you mean: Designs of class mechanics broken by illthought heat changes (HS+RS combo during gas) All skill / choices destroyed (only penalties from switching KS targets, doing burst / cool cycles nerfed out of gameplay) Arguably too weak at intended gear levels for healing output in operations (NM Jarg & Sorno, HC Two Tanks Stormcaller side, and no being mostly fully Black Hole geared now does not count as "completing content") Then sure, they are fine. Boring, whack-a-mole gameplay with near zero skill rewards with weakest output, with broken gameplay mechanics but I guess that is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stovokor Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Im talking about full groups wearing War Hero gear vs each other. I dont know what gear/skill the people you are playing with/against on your servers. For all I know the Alliance on your servers may totally suck, or the team you are up against is completely outclassed by gear/skill. I am talking about even teams of similarly skilful players, wearing full WH gear and the ability of the Merc Healer to out heal the other classes on the same team, who are also full WH geared. The Merc healer can NOT out heal the other classes. Showing me random photobucket images of you getting 500 to 600+ means nothing, unless of course your telling me that everyone was full WH geared and the teams were evenly matched? When my team has been full WH geared, but we have gone up against lesser geared teams, and I have been the only healer; I too have scored 600k in a game where I have been guarded, and protected by high dps. That is not the issue here. Unless you are categorically telling me that in the scenario I have laid out that Merc healers are as good as the other classes? and if that is the case, why are merc healers so few on servers full of sorc and op healers? This is my take .. Number's don't mean much in overall context. I dare say sometimes chasing scoreboard stat could even be counterproductive towards achieving wins. Once you adapt CM is viable in 1.2 PvP. I'm not saying this is easy but adapting means looking at many things including tweaking your HP to cater to TTK and also working out better skill choices for specific situations. Priority needs to be given to winning specific skirmishes rather then meaningless padding of numbers on scoreboard. Commando medic's are very good at keeping up priority targets with big heals at crucial moments. The main problem facing CM are that we come from overpowered state initially. Everyone still wants to play that way & very few are able to break away from this mindset and appreciate the overall subtext of things needed to win skirmishes / nodes and subsequently the warzone. I'm on highly competitive PvP server from early access and many of us keep playing daily cause of the intensity of PvP between the top groups. Warhero groups on my server will invite me even outside my guild premades. Out of the Commando's on my server, there are another two CM that figured it out on their own as well and are thriving. Winning is all that matters and CM are perfectly viable option to make this happen. Edited June 11, 2012 by Stovokor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codek Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 If by fine you mean: Designs of class mechanics broken by illthought heat changes (HS+RS combo during gas) Gasp, they didn't want us spamming two abilities over and over that had the potential to keep two targets alive against any amount of burst damage in game? Who would have thought.... All skill / choices destroyed (only penalties from switching KS targets, doing burst / cool cycles nerfed out of gameplay) Again, nerf to burst. It was ridiculous that I could stand in the middle of a PvP match and never die to the effective burst healing that was possible. And three interrupts was not an effective counter to that... Arguably too weak at intended gear levels for healing output in operations (NM Jarg & Sorno, HC Two Tanks Stormcaller side, and no being mostly fully Black Hole geared now does not count as "completing content") This is horribly wrong and if that is your opinion then your are doing something wrong. Sorc's can struggle a bit on stormcaller side during the defensive phase if by chance a DD gets cast before the phase hits. If it's not cast then any healer can heal that side with ease. That is why I, as a merc, heal it over my partner sorc for this fight on HM. I have no idea where you are coming from for Jarg and Sorno. Then sure, they are fine. Boring, whack-a-mole gameplay with near zero skill rewards with weakest output, with broken gameplay mechanics but I guess that is fine. There are plenty of very successful Mercs in game right now. Healing was a joke pre-1.2 and our burst took the biggest hit because of it. It's been a few months now for you to adapt to the changes and Merc are just as viable as before. Just get over the nerf and learn to play again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDA_Slaine Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I have tweaked so many times, I am now broke. Literally. My Motto is adapt and overcome. My spec is now such that I do not have the top 6 points in the bodyguard tree; instead opting to maximise my vent optimisation to keep my overheating down (venting heat when getting stunned/slowed) I dont crit as much. My heals are smaller. But my Kolto Missile usage is alot better and I actually do significantly more healing in the long term than the other WH geared merc (who was matching me before this most recent tweak) But they still cant touch the other healers output - no matter what I tweak. Yes I agree the aim is not numbers, but to win. Yes I agree that number chasing can be sometimes detrimental to the outcome of a match. Its about balance. I dont want to be better than the other healers. I want to be able to match them. If a class is over powered - yes nerf them - but dont nerf them detrimentally - nerf them so they MATCH other heal classes. Edited June 11, 2012 by SDA_Slaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codek Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I have tweaked so many times, I am now broke. Literally. My Motto is adapt and overcome. My spec is now such that I do not have the top 6 points in the bodyguard tree; instead opting to maximise my vent optimisation to keep my overheating down (venting heat when getting stunned/slowed) I dont crit as much. My heals are smaller. But my Kolto Missile usage is alot better and I actually do significantly more healing in the long term than the other WH geared merc (who was matching me before this most recent tweak) But they still cant touch the other healers output - no matter what I tweak. Yes I agree the aim is not numbers, but to win. Yes I agree that number chasing can be sometimes detrimental to the outcome of a match. Its about balance. I dont want to be better than the other healers. I want to be able to match them. If a class is over powered - yes nerf them - but dont nerf them detrimentally - nerf them so they MATCH other heal classes. You want to match them in what, AoE healing? That's the Sorcs niche so they will always have the highest healing overall, doesn't mean much in terms of keeping a critical single target alive. Match them in burst healing? We are on par with OP's and beat out Sorcs's. Wether Op's are better or not can be argued up until the next patch (and then some) but that just goes to show how balanced healing actually is in this game. It seems like you are gauging off of healing numbers a bit to much when it comes to PvP. Mercs have no way to stack the healing meter without spamming our missiles. We lack the large AoE and the hots which maintain healing while the healer is not present. but what we lack we make up for with our healing buffs and instant cast abilities. more importantly, we place our healing where it counts, to bring people back from the (nearly) dead and to taunt the enemy team with that person who just won't die while staying at 20% life. You'll see once ranked warzones come, when competitive teams are working towards bursting down designated players through VoIP, Merc's and OP's will be the hard counter to that leaving Sorc's in the dust (sadly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaphael Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 There are plenty of very successful Mercs in game right now. Healing was a joke pre-1.2 and our burst took the biggest hit because of it. It's been a few months now for you to adapt to the changes and Merc are just as viable as before. Just get over the nerf and learn to play again. Exactly what I meant. We took a hit to bring us in line with the other healers, but after getting used to the changes and adapting we're once again fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvershadows Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) My spec is now such that I do not have the top 6 points in the bodyguard tree I don't want to sound nasty or confrontational or anything, but how can you not have emergency scan and then complain about being outhealed when you lose your no heat, no cast time instant heal? I see that you say you did this to help with heat management - but you've cut yourself off from a heal that doesn't USE ANY heat. A heal that I, personally, find saves lives and adds greatly to our burst healing, can prevent someone from dying before they throw the huttball or keep someone from capping a node. Not to mention that 15 percent crit chance is an awful lot to lose for the ability to vent 8 heat at a time when you're crowd controlled, which, while it does happen a lot in this game (via snares attached to a million abilities), doesn't happen necessarily when you need it, and if you're playing really well, you won't be cc'd that often anyway. I've been healing in pvp mmos since 2003, and I would NEVER give up an instant cast, free-resource heal like that and then complain I'm being outhealed or that I feel less viable than other healing classes. You're going to come back with some words about how emergency scan has a cooldown blah blah blah. Doesn't matter. Why you would ditch that skill is beyond me. EVERY merc has heat issues if they're forced into spamming heals. Likewise, so do sorcs have force issues and ops have energy issues. Try looking into what you and the rest of your team can actively do toward damage mitigation so you don't have to spam so much - sometimes I think I'm the only merc who will blow supercharged gas just to get the kolto missile shield on one lone target - but when I do it, they almost always survive I'm running this build, btw http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#300bfRMRdcdkqZMcoZbz.1 Notice I don't have any of the heat management talents - I do overheat, but not often. I spam rapid shots whenever I'm not doing anything else, and half the time I spam it in between regular heals even on a target taking a ton of damage - with all the crit I have my rapid shots actually heals better than you'd think. Not trying to say I'm like, the uber best or anything, but I honestly have no trouble, or very little trouble, even against teams in full war hero gear - with me in battlemaster. Of course - I have 2 bodyguard mercs and have been fighting full war hero teams since the day I dinged 50 on the second one, so I had quite the training experience Edited June 11, 2012 by silvershadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmoyers Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I am only telling you my experience. I regularly do premades with folks. None of us have full war hero. I rarely see people with full war hero on my server -- relatively low population. Perhaps at the very highest end I would feel more pressure, but I've not seen a structured enough participation in pvp to notice that kind of imbalance, I guess. I do know that in PVE, I find that I am slightly outhealed by my operative counterpart with equal gear but do not have trouble doing progression content. I am not carried. My effective HPS seems to be generally near others. On the other hand, raw HPS is way off especially with our low power AOE heal. This is reflected here too: http://dpsmeter.com/ - Almost all are sorcs and operatives in the top end raids. Random mercs, but they are the exception, not the rule. I could have a lot to do with overheals, but at the same time, we are not talking about a small gap. Maybe I'm under-qualified to have an opinion though. Thats always the argument, however. You aren't qualified because you don't have the gear. You aren't qualified because you DO have the gear. And so on. I think a minor boost to aoe heals (an intelligent kolto missle would be nice) or a minor boost to heals on the run. Maybe a MINOR heat management boost. Something like they are introducing into arsenal a la "Terminal Velocity has been redesigned. While High-Velocity Gas Cylinder is active, there is a 50% chance per point to vent 8 Heat every 6 seconds." Edited June 11, 2012 by jmoyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaPorkchop Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 TLDR everything. I did read most. I will read more later. However, you CAN NOT base your effective-ness on overall numbers. There are way too manythings to consider. Are you doing objectives and the other healers not? Is the other team acctually doing the damage required for you to get 600k+ heals? Is the other healer just able to or quicker than you to the heals? Are you being focused and the other healers not? Blah blah. So many factors determine what your overall heals are going to be. One case in point. If the other team only does 1mil damage through the entire WZ, and you have 4 healers, well, if you aren't around the action the ENTIRE time, you aren't gonna get most of those heals. If you all healed the same fights and got to the heals at the same time you would only get 250k heals. BH's have just as good abilities (be it diffrent for diffrent reasons) as all the other healers. You not being able to be intterupted for 12secs is crazy good. Your instant heal while running around shooting your gun (while not HUGE numbers) is, imo, a great dot. (No you can't keep anyone up just spamming Rapid shots, but I know I miss it when I play my op healer). And I'm not saying it's a L2P issue. I'm just saying there are too many factors to compare for overall healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 There are plenty of very successful Mercs in game right now. Healing was a joke pre-1.2 and our burst took the biggest hit because of it. It's been a few months now for you to adapt to the changes and Merc are just as viable as before. Just get over the nerf and learn to play again. Please learn to quote posts properly. Gasp, they didn't want us spamming two abilities over and over that had the potential to keep two targets alive against any amount of burst damage in game? Who would have thought.... You fail to understand, which is norm for the "it is fine" crowd so okay. The point is, was, and will be that numerically making our basic combo mechanic _worth less_ than single skill use spamming is breaking a game design. They should have lowered the numerical values so the MECHANIC stays valid, but values are lower, NOT break the mechanic. But, as I said, failing to understand this is normal. Again, nerf to burst. It was ridiculous that I could stand in the middle of a PvP match and never die to the effective burst healing that was possible. And three interrupts was not an effective counter to that... Again, failure to understand changing the heat mechanics was exactly the wrong thing to do. Nerf the values, not the gameplay to "stupid mode". This is horribly wrong and if that is your opinion then your are doing something wrong. Sorc's can struggle a bit on stormcaller side during the defensive phase if by chance a DD gets cast before the phase hits. If it's not cast then any healer can heal that side with ease. That is why I, as a merc, heal it over my partner sorc for this fight on HM. I have no idea where you are coming from for Jarg and Sorno. So, you never went to J&S nightmare with dual mercs post patch with rakata gear? You forget we overgear hardmode Denova already? Gee, wonder why you don't seem to grasp the issues... There are plenty of very successful Mercs in game right now. Healing was a joke pre-1.2 and our burst took the biggest hit because of it. It's been a few months now for you to adapt to the changes and Merc are just as viable as before. Just get over the nerf and learn to play again. You, keep, failing, to, understand. Of course you probably were not part of the active discussion community during the time around 1.2? _Nerfing the values would have been okay_, changing the heat mechanics and making bounty hunter and CM whack-a-mole stupid healer with severely gimped skill rewards was NOT okay. I still have some time from the free month left so am actually trying to get this point out to these uninformed threads, but whatever ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codek Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) I was around for those threads, and they were all a joke. The whole basis was to just decrease the healing numbers of the class but that would accomplish one thing, less healing! It would in fact decrease the ability of the class as a whole because of it. Less healing, less burst, less thought, more frequent use of abilities, and more screaming why the heals hits for so little. So many complaints about the class not being viable would exist based on the fact that we would blow our SCG and spam heals on 1-person then after 5 casts they might be topped off. On top of that, we would have no potential to toss heat management to the wind and go all out with burst healing for a desperate savior. It would fail miserably because we would lack the power behind our heals that we still have today. The grass is not greener on the other side and I have been arguing since pre-1.2 that nerfing the value of heals from healing abilities to a class that is built around burst healing is the worst possible thing that can happen. At least right now we have the knowledge to understand what it means to manage heat and the clever players will know how to go beyond it with a string of heals and recover in a skillful manor. Edited June 12, 2012 by Codek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katchii Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I hit 50 on my Bodyguard Merc just before 1.2 came out, got some of the daily comm modifications and took a break due to the amount of time I had to wait for groups. I love healing, but not standing around in the fleet for 30-45 minutes getting nothing done, when I only have 2-3 hours of available play time every other day. Just before coming back, I decided to look at these forums to find out how badly the changes affected our healing....needless to say I was not optimistic. However, over the last week I've sporadically been courageous enough to offer my healing services to guildies who just needed a healer to fill that last spot for HM Boarding Party, Foundry, Black Talon and Kaon.... After being so beaten down with the majority of this forums doomsday attitude about Commando and Mercenary healing all I have to say is stop...stop whining. You're making it seem WAAAAAY worse than it actually is. While I can't speak to how much better or more enjoyable the other healers are (I don't like Sage/ Sorc healing style TBH) but I enjoyed the hell out of my groups. No one died, we were all fairly fresh 50's with the odd Tionese piece that dropped from HM's and daily comm modifications, so we didn't over gear the content by any stretch, and they were some of the fastest runs I've ever done. TL;DR- If you enjoy Merc/ Commando healing, stick with it and don't listen to this doomsday crap, we're viable healers. Notice the word VIABLE...I did not say we were equal to the other healers (I can't speak to this point, so this is neither saying we are worse or better than anything else), I said we can heal well enough to get the job done, and that's the only thing that matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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