The beginning of the end?

[DiabloDoom]

4) Crafting & Gear

a. The original concept was interesting, the result is actually pretty dull, though I do get excited when my RE’s proc occasionally. This issue isn’t just with TOR, crafting in general in all MMO’s I’ve played is pretty boring.

 

b. What I did find odd is the gear system, when I piece of loot drops in WoW, I enjoy having to gem and enchant it, and run around grabbing mats and finding someone to do the enchant, it makes it feel more powerful somehow. But loot in TOR just drops pre-gemmed (kinda), which takes away some of the enjoyment, and again give us less to do.

 

Fix This Next BioWare

 

"Crafting" in this game well, just sucks period. Even Legend of Mir who's crafting system was extremely basic, but was still a far cry better than this, most of all the top items had to be crafted. Crafting gives soul to a game, creates a player driven economy which is a big social tool which will give this game a great feel, giving you more concurrent players. I want to be able to craft unique items, aesthetically and statistically unique, not predefined crap that's worthless and can't compete with comm bought gear.

 

PS WOW's been out almost 8 years

 

BTW BIOWARE. If an Indie company such as Star Vault that had a dev team of 20-30 people who were mostly students and only £1million budget throughout their whole development, CAN create one of the most diverse and complex crafting system in the world of gaming, then you have no excuse for this pitiful attempt which is actually a mockery to the name "crafting".

Edited June 8, 2012 by DiabloDoom

[Valkirus]

Fix This Next BioWare

 

"Crafting" in this game well, just sucks period. Even Legend of Mir who's crafting system was extremely basic, but was still a far cry better than this, most of all the top items had to be crafted. Crafting gives soul to a game, creates a player driven economy which is a big social tool which will give this game a great feel, giving you more concurrent players. I want to be able to craft unique items, aesthetically and statistically unique, not predefined crap that's worthless and can't compete with comm bought gear.

 

PS WOW's been out almost 8 years

 

BTW BIOWARE. If an Indie company such as Star Vault that had a dev team of 20-30 people who were mostly students and only £1million budget throughout their whole development, CAN create one of the most diverse and complex crafting system in the world of gaming, then you have no excuse for this pitiful attempt which is actually a mockery to the name "crafting".

 

I agree with this. Was very disappointed in the crafting in TOR. Was hoping for a system which would be better than WoW's, but actually they came up with a worse one in TOR. Having the companions gather mats and do quests for you is great. But the results from such functions by them is basically not worth the credits to send them out on the missions. BioChem is the only exception to this and even it was nerfed some.

[Ashlian]

We are entirely too polite about this.

 

Face the music. SWTOR was a complete an utter failure. I played the hell out of it with a lot of old friends, we gave it a chance, and then another chance, and then another chance until it's dying breath. Everything about SWTOR was disappointing. Whoever designed this game had no idea what the hell they were doing. Totally incompetent, inexperienced, and neglectful of what makes an MMO tolerable.

 

Please stop white-knighting this game. It only has Star Wars to offer and anybody who isn't completely insane realizes this would have been better off as a single-player with some 2-4 player co-op option and possibly multiplayer pvp battlegrounds the way ME3 has it. But for Bioware to dive head first into the MMO market with this kind of crap is absurd, completely absurd. Our money has been wasted on a game that very realistically faces the chance of going f2p (and probably should).

 

So get real, these posts are not whining or doom-saying or even nonconstructive in the least bit. I'll tell you what was nonconstructive, though... this game, the infinite bugs within the game and the terrible response time to pretty much everything wrong within the game from beta, to pre-release, to now.

 

Quote, defend, counter-argue, and enjoy your limited transfers next week. Bioware needs to get their **** together, and these months-behind transfers won't solve the problems that caused everybody else to quit.

 

P.S. This thread's title should be renamed, because the beginning of the end was probably in January or possibly Feb.

 

Seriously.....every single solitary time someone talks about the game's infinite bugs and the terrible response time to such bugs or to player concerns, I have to wonder how long that person has been playing an MMO or if they have a stellarly selective memory.

 

In just one example, here's a review from the Planes of Power expansion for EQ1 in 2002, which continued as a P2P until LAST YEAR. PoP was EQ1's 4th expansion out of, um....18.

 

Sony Online Entertainment has once again released yet another incomplete expansion full of bugs, character imbalance, stupid time sinks and VERY FEW working quests (strange considering the NAME of the game)...You pay close to [cost] US for this game PER MONTH, shouldnt they at least answer customer service issues? Purchase this game at your own risk, 2 thumbs down once again for Sony Online Entertainment and Everquest.

 

I think I could substitute BW and SWTOR for Sony Online Entertainment and Everquest and it would feel right at home on this forum. And I could probably find a thousand like posts for every major MMO release and expansion of said MMO's. So I'll just keep playing the game and look forward to it's 18th expansion.

[VegaPhone]

Have you completed all dailies, all FPS, all OPs including nightmare? Have all your datacrons etc. Unlocked all legacy? Fully geared?

 

I've seen people complaining about end-game content that have not even completed story Mode.

 

Thats not end game for everyone. Thats the problem of MMOs and being a large range of development. You cant take one aspect and say this end game exists so you cant complain.

 

There is pvp end game.

completionist end game

exploring end game, which is mostly done earlier throughout the lvling process

crafting end game, which does not exist in this game prior to 1.2 but is getting better

Ops end game

Open world end game - player housing/seiging guild castles or cities etc

Social end game which is a mix of the above but also may include mini games

 

These are the expected range of end game in an MMO. Mini games is not ncessarily an expected thing but in swtor it is due being a kotor continuation.

 

So you saying there is a lot of end game might be true but you are wrong to hold someone who is a pvper for not playing other aspects of end game to be limiting themselves since that is the nature of MMOs. There is meant to be options in an MMO.

 

And swtor is missing those options in some regards and not having enough in others. So the only point in expressing an opinion that there is end game is talking all existing activities done at end game whether it fits a certain demographic and say... here you go, and you better like it. Thats not how MMOs work.

 

WoW succeeds better at this becuase it was somewhat new as an MMO to many people, but also holds the interest of many gamers already invested into the game. So it attracts more people who are new to the genre because it is the standard of quality for theme parks and for paid sub games.

 

Swtor is 1. a SW game. which means it becomes a big responsibility in trying to make a lot of people with different expectations happy for what is expected in an MMO. 2. Kotor continuation and other expectations like mini games. 3. Large budget and claiming to have all the expected content of a AAA MMO, and setting the expectations as such. 4. shut down a sand box SW MMO called SWG before swtor was laucnhed bringing people with that mindset and expecting a hybrid. Swtor was also talking about being a mix of sand box and themepark but they are a themepark with a large space. A sand box has actual systems to set up people for a dynamic and virtual reality. And swtor is not a good hybrid.

 

So that already sets expectations, and therefore swtor should have lived up to those expectation that they created, MMO expectations that everyone has in general, and following trends of what MMOs should be (listening) and that is a hybrid of sand box and themepark MMOs as swtor claimed to be but was really PR.

 

So in other words BW added open world, illum, and 3 warzones and made pvp servers to say they catered to pvpers. Its not true. They have not lived up to expectations, not for pvpers.

 

They also said they have management problems before. SO we get somewhat of a limited end game, while you and others are happy with this deception, and a not fully as advertised product. Its good you enjoy it, and like I said, I want them to suceed, but I really hope they get a false sense of what the community wants from the wrong people. This game can be a lot of things to many people, and what it is right now is limiting it to a few people and dropping.

 

So ... no. The end game is not for everyone.

 

Its not for pvpers. Not for people looking for an immersive world feel. Not really for MMO players since the social aspect fo the game is really limited to the fleet and driving around showing off vanity items. Those are not everyones idea of fun or worth while long term goals.

 

If BW had a nice hybrid of sand box and themepark, dynamic worlds, open world pvp, player housing, seiging, large WZs, better A.I., more complex crafting, better chracter creation, more alien races for character creation, and NPCs, and mini games... with a future promise of water content and 3d space combat - pvp, then I would be a completionist while doing other things... however getting vanity pets in a dead world feels unfullifilling. This is why for me, having a complete package is important and one aspect compliments the other to motivate me to invest into different features.

 

Why would I bother with a gear grind in swtor when I dont care about open world, crafting, or lack of social features (that i consider social like multi player mini games)? I am not the kind of person who enjoys pointless long term gear grinds to walk around the fleet after its all said and done. Swtor is too hollow atm to justify to me as a pvper, that other content is worth doing, which I normally dont do, and beyond completing the content wont like the grind.

 

Also I have collected several pets. I have a few different vehicles. I have almost all data crons on one character except for the 10 stat which I was doing but people gave up becuase it was glitched after 1.2

 

I have 3 lvl 50s, and a few low lvl characters

 

valor rank 70 on one character

 

I have done all the HM FP, and I have done a lot of FP that my social rank should be above rank 1 but its below that level due to a glitch.

 

Also I have done ops, and the game breaking bugs ruined it for me.

 

However, if there were mini games from the beginning, and other aspects of the game, then bugs in an ops would not be a problem. I would wait. Or missing out on social rank as well. Or doing the pointless valor grind, or gear grind etc.

 

This game does not deserve any time beyond what people like to play since like I said it is hollow in terms of MMO features.

 

So swtor is in a tough situation imo. Only time and proper development can save them. They have a great game as a foundation with a great story but it needs more, including better community service to control server popualtions.

 

That hurt thier game probably more than anything than I have mentioned. Bad server population, that is.

 

So, you can try to talk people into staying to play other aspects of the game they may or may not enjoy, but as for the standards its not good enough. And its shame really, since its SW, Kotor infinity, BW, and a large budget MMO. We dont get many big budget MMOs to afford proper development for a great game. This was meant to be it, and it still can be but with time... which can hurt the game and make that development take even longer ( taking longer with a shrinking and struggling dev team) . And frankly, I am somewhat impatient, I dont want to wait another 1-3 years and possibly more to get the MMO that this should have been.

 

If only they had better management, used the unreal engine, and did not bother with investing into VO for other languages which also use specific cinematics as well for lip synching the words. Then they could have more features, and more players as well and more money to develop the game.

Edited June 8, 2012 by VegaPhone

[belizar]

Have you completed all dailies, all FPS, all OPs including nightmare? Have all your datacrons etc. Unlocked all legacy? Fully geared?

 

I've seen people complaining about end-game content that have not even completed story Mode.

 

difficulty = content... only game i beat on all difficulty lvls was halo 3

doing the same bosses other than them hiting harder isnt more content

[Lenny]

Seriously.....every single solitary time someone talks about the game's infinite bugs and the terrible response time to such bugs or to player concerns, I have to wonder how long that person has been playing an MMO or if they have a stellarly selective memory.

 

In just one example, here's a review from the Planes of Power expansion for EQ1 in 2002, which continued as a P2P until LAST YEAR. PoP was EQ1's 4th expansion out of, um....18.

 

Sony Online Entertainment has once again released yet another incomplete expansion full of bugs, character imbalance, stupid time sinks and VERY FEW working quests (strange considering the NAME of the game)...You pay close to [cost] US for this game PER MONTH, shouldnt they at least answer customer service issues? Purchase this game at your own risk, 2 thumbs down once again for Sony Online Entertainment and Everquest.

 

I think I could substitute BW and SWTOR for Sony Online Entertainment and Everquest and it would feel right at home on this forum. And I could probably find a thousand like posts for every major MMO release and expansion of said MMO's. So I'll just keep playing the game and look forward to it's 18th expansion.

 

Yes, I am very familiar with other MMOs as well as their bugs and shortcomings. I am very familiar with the complaints about EQ1 even though I never played it.

 

Example: http://www.dtguilds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2655

 

I am not really sure what to tell you, if you didn't experience it yourself then I cannot adequately describe just how bad SWTOR was with bugs and response time. Questing 1-50 itself didn't have too many, although did have some and they were very annoying. The never-ending list of bugs really began at the "end-game" if you can really call it that. Nearly all flashpoints, especially operations, especially Soa, especially PvP and warzones, and especially a lot of other in the miscellaneous content section of bugs that were let loose for weeks or months. This goes from daily quest turn-ins, to daily quests themselves.

 

Falling through the world. Instances locking you out if you wiped. Not getting loot multiple times. Buggy or just poorly designed loot rules. Bosses resetting after wipes to a different difficulty than what they were previously. Normal mode flashpoints having heroic mode bosses. Mobs going perma immune. Bosses respawning after you kill them with partial loot tables (craft mats). The Ilum dailies that broke permanently until weekly reset. If someone completed certain quests in your party you couldn't complete them and had to drop group/reset (experienced on Hoth, Belsavis, and Corellia for four months). Soa was bugged every week and sometimes got worse than it was already. Not getting credit for weekly or daily quests half the time or more. Getting stuck in a warzone ready-room. Charging holodancers, putting it in patch notes a week before a fix so that everybody else learns about it and abuses it in huttball for a week. Warzone botters never being banned, botting several weeks straight and ruining PvP on a server for the victim faction (I wanted to include this because it relates to terrible response times.) I really don't want to drag this paragraph on longer.

 

This also includes patch 1.2's game-crippling bugs. If you didn't experience these, let me describe two of them for you. Sound was glitched out, much worse than just the persistent jet noise. Any broken noise in the game wouldn't go away until you left the zone or instance. This wasn't fixed for a week, so I just didn't bother logging in since I didn't want to level alts without sound. The other bug involved horrendous inventory lag on any character that learned too many schematics in a profession (i.e. hundreds of biochem implants, etc.). Mail, inventory, AH, crew skills all took multiple seconds to complete one simple process because of it. I definitely didn't play my main character more than a couple days for two weeks because of this.

 

I could go on, and I'm sure I can't even remember them all. I tend to forget because bugs were so frequent especially within the first month of the game. I've played plenty of new MMO releases so I have a pretty acceptable range of comparison. I know that some other MMOs bombed at release in worse ways, but to assume that I'm just making this up or have no idea what it was like for you in 2002 Everquest is kind of, well, dumb. Or maybe you just played less than me from Dec. to Feb. I don't know.

 

Of all the dozens of tickets I sent in for different bugs from December through March, I was responded to in-game only once, and whoever it was representing Bioware didn't even speak english well enough for me to understand him/her. Pretty good!

 

The only thing that lessened the infuriating feeling bugs in SWTOR gave us was the fact that the game was so incredibly easy anyway. Bugs were the actual difficulty rating in nightmare mode operations. I've PTR-tested and live-tested WoW raids for years, it was never this bad! And if it was, at least we knew it was an intentional c*ckblock. These bugs were just all over the place.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Lenny

[trussasp]

Hi OP:

 

I looked at your list, and you have listed a lot of things, most of which I believe you are correct about.

 

From your list, here is the list of things you listed which would be very hard (read: very long time, or impossible) to fix:

 

1) a.

 

2) a.

2) b.

 

3) a.

3) c.

 

4) a.

4) b.

 

 

 

TLDR... They couldn't possibly fix (soon) the majority of things you listed. If these things are important to you, this is not the game you are looking for. Sorry.