1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[Coldin]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly w/ everything that you wrote here.

 

People seem to think it's classes/ACs that need buffs, but it's not. It's just individual specs that need to be brought in line w/ their more powerful counterparts. : )

 

Pretty much. Though...I do think in the case of Sentinels/Marauders, it's more their defensive cooldowns as a whole that needs to be looked at. It's very frustrating that a high DPS class can vanish more often than the actual stealth classes. Also, that even while they give up 50% health for 99% damage reduction, they can still be healed over that duration.

 

Extending the cooldown on the stealth skill to 2 minutes (same as Assassins and Operatives traited), and adding in some type of healing penalty while their Guarded by the Force is up, would put this class back on par with other classes in terms of defensive cooldowns.

 

Then their specs as a whole could be looked and evaluated.

 

(But, I can imagine people will read this and say...Marauders need these cooldowns just like they are, otherwise they will be useless.)

[Varicite]

Pretty much. Though...I do think in the case of Sentinels/Marauders, it's more their defensive cooldowns as a whole that needs to be looked at. It's very frustrating that a high DPS class can vanish more often than the actual stealth classes. Also, that even while they give up 50% health for 99% damage reduction, they can still be healed over that duration.

 

Extending the cooldown on the stealth skill to 2 minutes (same as Assassins and Operatives traited), and adding in some type of healing penalty while their Guarded by the Force is up, would put this class back on par with other classes in terms of defensive cooldowns.

 

Then their specs as a whole could be looked and evaluated.

 

(But, I can imagine people will read this and say...Marauders need these cooldowns just like they are, otherwise they will be useless.)

 

Well, as a Carnage Marauder, I can live w/ those changes.

 

/shrug

[Astarica]

Some DPS only have one good defensive CD and yet Marauders have 4 good ones, some better than others but definitely at least good (Saber Ward, Cloak of Pain, Undying Rage, and Force Camo). It's not like Marauders are incapable of dealing DPS and having potenitally 4 times the tools, not to mention 2 of the defensive CD can certainly make a 'top 5 PvP defensive CD in game' list. I think Marauder offense is fine. They just can't be as unkillable as they currently are. Tankasins have the same issue but of course we're getting nerfed next patch, so no more excuses for Marauders either.

[Xinika]

Not counting healers who usually don't win 1on1 period, I'm having a hard time thinking of a class that's great at 1v1 and somehow bad in group combat. In the worst case you can still attack whoever you normally could beat 1v1 knowing that you've a big advantage there.

 

Marauders are strong in 1v1 and they're not weaker in group combat. Maybe not as good as a Tankasin (about to be nerfed) but definitely competitive in terms of utility to any pure DPS. Trauma and the 30 stack buffs are all pretty useful.

 

It's called Infiltration Shadow or Deception Assassin.

[Varicite]

It's called Infiltration Shadow or Deception Assassin.

 

Concealment Operative would have worked also, I think.

 

I really hope we're not trying to bust Marauders down to the level of these 3 specs, though....

Edited June 18, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

It's called Infiltration Shadow or Deception Assassin.

 

They seem to be just bad at 1on1 and group fighting. I guess you can argue they're less bad in one area than another but certainly nobody thinks of the class as a strong 1on1 class.

[islander]

I'll give you this, and this is why you won't see me calling for nerfs on the stronger dueling specs anytime soon.

 

PvP is not all about 1v1, fortunately, but everyone needs to recognize that a class that is strong 1v1 is also going to be strong in numbers.

 

True, but perception doesn't make it reality. That's the thing.

Tell me you don't see all sorts of baddie maras out there. I see them.

 

This is no different then sorcerers before this. Except sorcs are WAY easier to play.

It's a cycle of stupid that's always pervasive in MMORPG's and PvP.

 

I honestly think this MMO is more PvP balanced then any I've played in recent history. I'm not saying every spec within every class is close ot balance. I am saying that, in my mind, every class in this game has a highly competitive spec that played well excels. Mara actually has 3 specs that are fairly well balanced now, but they may be the exception in that sense.

 

If you put two equal skilled players in a duel - a sniper and a marauder. Start them from 35 meters away. See how often the mara wins.

Edited June 19, 2012 by islander

[Varicite]

True, but perception doesn't make it reality. That's the thing.

Tell me you don't see all sorts of baddie maras out there. I see them.

 

This is no different then sorcerers before this. Except sorcs are WAY easier to play.

It's a cycle of stupid that's always pervasive in MMORPG's and PvP.

 

I honestly think this MMO is more PvP balanced then any I've played in recent history. I'm not saying every spec within every class is close ot balance. I am saying that, in my mind, every class in this game has a highly competitive spec that played well excels. Mara actually has 3 specs that are fairly well balanced now, but they may be the exception in that sense.

 

If you put two equal skilled players in a duel - a sniper and a marauder. Start them from 35 meters away. See how often the mara wins.

 

This is the part that makes all my other ACs jealous. :c

 

BTW, at the high end, a Sorc is NOT way easier to play than a Marauder, trust me.

 

You would change that tune the second you are an endgame Sorc and have a geared Mara all over you. : )

 

I'll give you that it's easier to DPS w/ if left completely alone, but let's be honest... how often do YOU leave a DPS sorc completely alone in a WZ?

Edited June 19, 2012 by Varicite

[SinnedWill]

I could probably agree with this. Though I still feel like certain AC/Trees are a bit further ahead than others. Commando/Mercs don't really have any trees that strike me as amazing. Same with Sage/Sorc. That lightning hurts, but they're pretty quick to kill.

 

The problem is....even if each AC gets one spec that performs well in PVP, that still means there's 2 trees for each AC that isn't up to par.

 

If someone picks a Scoundrel for DPS, they really don't want to use the healing tree. But to be using their best tree, they have to be heals. Powertechs have the same issue with Pyrotech. So do Assassins with their tanking tree.

 

I see this is as an issue that needs to get resolved. Every tree should be valuable for PVP in some aspect.

 

Lightning sucks for damage - one shock (with chain-shock proc) does about the same damage. Lightning is a filler for me - I use it to get wrath procs so I can insta-cast crushing darkness (which becomes 20% stronger) or when I'm very low on force. Lightning DOES HURT when it's being used by a tankassin that has harnessed darkness stacks- but don't confuse sorcerer's lightning with theirs.

[Coldin]

Lightning sucks for damage - one shock (with chain-shock proc) does about the same damage. Lightning is a filler for me - I use it to get wrath procs so I can insta-cast crushing darkness (which becomes 20% stronger) or when I'm very low on force. Lightning DOES HURT when it's being used by a tankassin that has harnessed darkness stacks- but don't confuse sorcerer's lightning with theirs.

 

You kind of missed my point by singling out that I said lightning. From my perspective, it just looks like I'm being constantly spammed with lightning. Either way, Sorcs can dish out some good ranged damage but they are also relatively easy to kill. That's the point I was trying to make.

[SinnedWill]

Mara actually has 3 specs that are fairly well balanced now, but they may be the exception in that sense.

 

If you put two equal skilled players in a duel - a sniper and a marauder. Start them from 35 meters away. See how often the mara wins.

 

Carnage marauder is at a significant disadvantage compared to the other two specs (sure, we get an improved predation). Problem with carnage marauder is that it's incredibly squishy, it uses force camo offensively much more than annihilation/rage tend to (they usually use it to retreat or to heal up), and carnage marauder's offensive window is incredibly short (Gore proc lasts 6s -15s cooldown timer- and there's the 1.5s GCD reset timer before we can attack with its armor penetration bonus, so 4.5s offensive windows, which will usually get almost completely wasted when an enemy uses a knockback - hence the application of force camo offensively to break slows/roots).

 

Yes, Force Camo + Undying Rage give unfair advantages for all marauders with pocket healers (that are permitted to be left unchecked)/Annihilation specced marauders (self-healing while being undamagable)/Rage Marauders (undamagable while force crush builds them shockwaves), but in the absence of healers, carnage marauders are INCREDIBLY SQUISHY, even with all defensive cooldowns and any smart player will counter their offensive windows with ease - not to mention ravage/master strike is currently bugged and is able to be interrupted (with interrupt ability) by teammates (though the recipient of ravage/master strike is unable to use THEIR interrupt) - I cannot tell you how many times I've activated ravage on a target after I've specifically waited for them to use any/all stuns/knockbacks beforehand only to activate my ravage and suddenly have one of their teammates (mostly sage/sorc or sniper/slinger) use an interrupt on me (and not only does this stop my ravage, it also goes into full cooldown timer as if it were used, not just a short lockout).

[SinnedWill]

You kind of missed my point by singling out that I said lightning. From my perspective, it just looks like I'm being constantly spammed with lightning. Either way, Sorcs can dish out some good ranged damage but they are also relatively easy to kill. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

My madness sorc. has more issues with Juggs/Guardians (slightly), Snipers/Gunslingers (situationally), Assassins/Shadows (quite significantly) compared to Maras/Sents (maras/sents are typically easy kills for me 1v1, sometimes even 1v2).

Powertechs/Vanguards, naturally, are capable of melting my face before I can even put all 3 DoT's on them so as to get reactive heals from crits. Yes, madness sorc. is incredily squishy - anyone who even considers using PVE gear (or even orange belts/bracers) over PVP gear as a madness sorc. is doing it wrong (the damage mitigation from expertise is pretty much the only thing that keeps me alive long enough to get reactive heals from my DoT's). I have full WH gear (and I've tried using pve gear with WH mods/ehancements and WH gear with orang belt/bracers - neither of which function viably - the slight damage increase isn't worth the loss to survivability - even if the expertise difference for damage reduction is only ~ 0.8%).

[Superawesomerman]

The adrenal relic nerf is going to be a nerf to carnage.

 

Also, how is carnage really any squishier than focus?

[Blloodbane]

The adrenal relic nerf is going to be a nerf to carnage.

 

Also, how is carnage really any squishier than focus?

 

Carnage = Combat

 

Focus = Anhilation

 

IIRC... (if I got it wrong forgive me, I havent logged in a month, been busy with work and kiddo)

 

Carnage/Combat specs have ZERO healing other than stims... so their survivability is drastically reduce.

[Superawesomerman]

Carnage = Combat

 

Focus = Anhilation

 

IIRC... (if I got it wrong forgive me, I havent logged in a month, been busy with work and kiddo)

 

Carnage/Combat specs have ZERO healing other than stims... so their survivability is drastically reduce.

 

Focus is actually rage

[Coldin]

My madness sorc. has more issues with Juggs/Guardians (slightly), Snipers/Gunslingers (situationally), Assassins/Shadows (quite significantly) compared to Maras/Sents (maras/sents are typically easy kills for me 1v1, sometimes even 1v2).

Powertechs/Vanguards, naturally, are capable of melting my face before I can even put all 3 DoT's on them so as to get reactive heals from crits. Yes, madness sorc. is incredily squishy - anyone who even considers using PVE gear (or even orange belts/bracers) over PVP gear as a madness sorc. is doing it wrong (the damage mitigation from expertise is pretty much the only thing that keeps me alive long enough to get reactive heals from my DoT's). I have full WH gear (and I've tried using pve gear with WH mods/ehancements and WH gear with orang belt/bracers - neither of which function viably - the slight damage increase isn't worth the loss to survivability - even if the expertise difference for damage reduction is only ~ 0.8%).

 

Heck, I think anyone favoring PVE gear over PVP is pretty crazy. These people walking into warzones with full Rakata gear, but only 200 expertise. They're actually worse for the team than the guy that's wearing full recruit.

[Varicite]

Carnage = Combat

 

Focus = Anhilation

 

IIRC... (if I got it wrong forgive me, I havent logged in a month, been busy with work and kiddo)

 

Carnage/Combat specs have ZERO healing other than stims... so their survivability is drastically reduce.

 

While this is true, let us not pretend that Carnage Marauder is any squishier than the other pure DPS ACs. : )

 

The simple fact is, even barring self-heals, that if you compare a Carnage Mara's defenses to, say, a Deception Assassin, Pyro PT, or Concealment Operative (all of the other burst DPS specs), Carnage comes out head and shoulders above the others.

 

Yus, I play Carnage. Don't nerf me, bro. :c

[Astarica]

Honestly I'd rather they just remove Saber Ward from Marauders and see what happens from there. It's probably not enough because Saber Ward isn't even that strong, but Saber Ward is the least interesting defensive CD on a Marauder as it's a strictly 'hit this button to always take some less damage'. Force Camo, Cloak of Pain, and Undying Rage all at least require some awareness of the battle to use effectively so I'd hate to see the more exciting choices nerfed before the boring one, though I think it'd take more than just getting rid of Saber Ward to get Marauders back in line, but let's start with the boring stuff first.

[Ahhmyface]

I think the changes in 1.3 are an indirect nerf. The only problem is that its an even bigger nerf to deception/infil and concealment, which are already generally considered to be among the weaker specs.

 

Still, I think marauder dps is about 5% too high, and cloak of pain should have about half the max duration it does, and force camo about twice the cooldown.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[SinnedWill]

The adrenal relic nerf is going to be a nerf to carnage.

 

Also, how is carnage really any squishier than focus?

 

Focus/Rage sents/maras get damage mitigaiton bonuses (they can get some from the upgraded stance in combat/carnage tree and some from the rage/focus tree) - they also get a cooldown reduction on UR/GbtF. Furthermore, they have force crush (and whatever the mirror for sentinels is) - which is an additional ranged attack.

 

Usually, Focus/Rage maras/sents keep away from group combat until they have a full stack of shockwaves then they'll jump in and try to hit as many people with it as possible - after that, they'll use their 10m gap closer (to gain the speed boost), followed by force crush and switch to an enemy on the outskirts until they're fully prepped for another huge smash.

[ZDProletariat]

Heck, I think anyone favoring PVE gear over PVP is pretty crazy. These people walking into warzones with full Rakata gear, but only 200 expertise. They're actually worse for the team than the guy that's wearing full recruit.

 

It entirely depends on the class. A guildy sentinel of mine is in full campaign with some expertise enhancements that give the same stats, giving him about 400 expertise. He always out-damages other sentinels and marauders, he never loses duels against other sentinels and marauders, and how defense cooldowns allow him to survive regardless of being hit a bit harder by other players. After all, when a sentinel's defense cooldowns are down, they will die horribly fast no matter what.

[SinnedWill]

While this is true, let us not pretend that Carnage Marauder is any squishier than the other pure DPS ACs. : )

 

The simple fact is, even barring self-heals, that if you compare a Carnage Mara's defenses to, say, a Deception Assassin, Pyro PT, or Concealment Operative (all of the other burst DPS specs), Carnage comes out head and shoulders above the others.

 

Yus, I play Carnage. Don't nerf me, bro. :c

 

Snipers and pyro pt's can be pretty tough, actually. I find my sniper and pyro pt usually have a good bit more up-time compared to my carny (even when I have all defensive cooldowns). Deception assassin... debatable, but they're very good in packs (staggered taunts FTW! - pyro pt gets LUDICROUS survivability in packs due to staggered taunts/quick kills, though).

Edited June 19, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Coldin]

It entirely depends on the class. A guildy sentinel of mine is in full campaign with some expertise enhancements that give the same stats, giving him about 400 expertise. He always out-damages other sentinels and marauders, he never loses duels against other sentinels and marauders, and how defense cooldowns allow him to survive regardless of being hit a bit harder by other players. After all, when a sentinel's defense cooldowns are down, they will die horribly fast no matter what.

 

It would be interesting to see what other Sentinels he's going up against, and how much expertise they have. Having low expertise only really works in my experience when everyone else has low expertise.

 

I bet your guildie wouldn't die so horribly fast if he had 1300 expertise.

[SinnedWill]

It entirely depends on the class. A guildy sentinel of mine is in full campaign with some expertise enhancements that give the same stats, giving him about 400 expertise. He always out-damages other sentinels and marauders, he never loses duels against other sentinels and marauders, and how defense cooldowns allow him to survive regardless of being hit a bit harder by other players. After all, when a sentinel's defense cooldowns are down, they will die horribly fast no matter what.

 

Lemme guess: he's watchman specced. In this case, yes, I'll agree that they can benefit quite a bit due to a combination of self-heals (which are %-based, so higher max HP increases its effectiveness) and activated defenses. In the case of madness sorc., however, (which also gets %-based reactive heals that benefit from higher max HP), it still doesn't payoff since they do not have any such activated defensives to reduce damage taken (I've tried it, it isn't pretty).

[Varicite]

Snipers and pyro pt's can be pretty tough, actually. I find my sniper and pyro pt usually have a good bit more up-time compared to my carny (even when I have all defensive cooldowns). Deception assassin... debatable, but they're very good in packs (staggered taunts FTW! - pyro pt gets LUDICROUS survivability in packs, though).

 

Exactly what about a Pyro PT suddenly gets better in a pack that a Carnage Mara cannot also take advantage of?

 

I feel my Carny stays up a lot longer thanks to 30 second Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward, Obfuscate against other melee, Camo to reposition, and UR to stall for heals. In comparison, my Pyro will pop Energy Shield and likely still die if they truly wish to continue focusing him, lol.

 

Or do you mean in a pack OF Pyro PTs, all staggering taunts? Because that happens like... once every 50 WZs lol.

 

As for Deception Assassin, it will die pretty much as soon as it's noticed unless you can run away and restealth. Great at 1v1, but falls short outside of the burst phase.

 

Sniper, I will give you. I have a lowbie one of those too, but I won't try to judge based on that experience. Just judging by Snipers at the high end, though, all of those defenses don't stop them from getting wrecked by most competent players.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Varicite