1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[LiveandDieinLA]

If Stuns aren't defensive cooldowns then neither is obfuscate.

 

Thats what Obfuscate is i'n essence, a stun that doesnt impair movement, and allows the effected party to use any force / tech ability in their arsenal.

[Superawesomerman]

You don't need the story to reach level 50. You do need the story to acquire companions and (surprise!) complete the story.

 

that and acquire the class buffs, which is really all im doing it for, other than to putter around in warzones.

 

assault is fun in a brainless sort of way, although im bad at taunting.

[Varicite]

Because burst is what matters in PvP. DPS is super cool in parses of people that got wrecked and on the scoreboard at the end of a match. But burst damage is what's really going to kill good players.

 

So then, I ask you, do you know what matters in PvP? Hint: It's not DPS.

 

Really, now.

 

So you're one of "those guys". The kind who thinks that there is only one method to do anything, ever. Gotcha.

 

For the rest of us in the real world, we can recognize that HIGH DPS coupled w/ great control (6 second interrupt, 2 snares, 0 distance Force Leap on 12 second cd, Force Choke that allows crit bleeds to tick for duration while you can't be hit, etc) can and does kill good players.

 

We also recognize that HIGH DPS coupled w/ excellent defenses allows one to stand toe-to-toe w/ almost anything in the game and come out ahead, because regardless of "burst", you have self-heals, mitigation, and high damage and that will put most people back in the spawn area.

 

I do know what matters in PvP, but apparently you do not. <.<

 

Burst is important FOR SOME CLASSES. Yours isn't one of them.

 

BTW, you do realize that 3 stack of Deadly Saber and a Rupture w/ a Berserk thrown in will crit 6k~ in decent gear, right? And that you're doing damage WHILE this is happening?

 

That's basically like a Tankasin in DPS gear channeling 3 stack HD Force Lightning on you... While Thrashing you at the same time. I'm not sure how HD FL is considered "burst" by a lot of people, but what Maras do isn't. <.<

Edited June 11, 2012 by Varicite

[Varicite]

If Stuns aren't defensive cooldowns then neither is obfuscate.

 

Thats what Obfuscate is i'n essence, a stun that doesnt impair movement, and allows the effected party to use any force / tech ability in their arsenal.

 

I do count stuns as defensive, personally, because they are often used that way.

 

Most other people don't, though.

 

But by the same token, I also count Blinds, KBs, and KDs as defensive.

[Xerain]

Really, now.

 

So you're one of "those guys". The kind who thinks that there is only one method to do anything, ever. Gotcha.

 

For the rest of us in the real world, we can recognize that HIGH DPS coupled w/ great control (6 second interrupt, 2 snares, 0 distance Force Leap on 12 second cd, Force Choke that allows crit bleeds to tick for duration while you can't be hit, etc) can and does kill good players.

 

We also recognize that HIGH DPS coupled w/ excellent defenses allows one to stand toe-to-toe w/ almost anything in the game and come out ahead, because regardless of "burst", you have self-heals, mitigation, and high damage and that will put most people back in the spawn area.

 

I do know what matters in PvP, but apparently you do not. <.<

 

Burst is important FOR SOME CLASSES. Yours isn't one of them.

 

BTW, you do realize that 3 stack of Deadly Saber and a Rupture w/ a Berserk thrown in will crit 6k~ in decent gear, right? And that you're doing damage WHILE this is happening?

 

That's basically like a Tankasin in DPS gear channeling 3 stack HD Force Lightning on you... While Thrashing you at the same time. I'm not sure how HD FL is considered "burst" by a lot of people, but what Maras do isn't. <.<

 

Actually burst is important for everyone in PvP and that's why crit and surge are such valuable stats and the first things you should be working on once you get gear.

 

Burst wins you fights not sustained and the value of being able to get a crit when you want it is so amazing in pvp and getting that crit when you need it is so much better.

 

I'd rather have 2 1.5k hits over 3 1k hits any day.

 

 

Also if roots, stuns, kb's, and kd's are defensive tools... well should we get into the defense other melee classes have then?

[Varicite]

Actually burst is important for everyone in PvP and that's why crit and surge are such valuable stats and the first things you should be working on once you get gear.

 

Burst wins you fights not sustained and the value of being able to get a crit when you want it is so amazing in pvp and getting that crit when you need it is so much better.

 

I'd rather have 2 1.5k hits over 3 1k hits any day.

 

Both of them are important. I most certainly did NOT say that "burst is not important", lol. I did say that it isn't important for Annihilation Marauders, though.

 

Anni Marauders don't really "burst", and I'd say they most definitely win fights. Sorcs also don't burst, and also win fights. I'd say your logic is a bit flawed.

 

With that said, I already told you that I am a Carnage Mara, so I obviously recognize the importance of burst as it pertains to PvP. It's simply not the MOST important thing, imo.

 

Control wins that race, in my mind, followed burst, healing, defense, sustained; in that order.

 

You can still win w/out burst if you have a good combination of the other factors, which is what I was trying to convey to Mr. lolburstiseverything.

 

PS) Try to keep it in context. We're talking about Annihilation Marauders here; do you honestly believe they have problems killing people even w/ their weaker hits than the other specs? Seriously? <.<

 

Also if roots, stuns, kb's, and kd's are defensive tools... well should we get into the defense other melee classes have then?

 

More than happy to, though I have in the past. Marauders still come out on top of the list by a pretty healthy margin. You can do so if you like, but I don't think it will help your case nearly as much as you think, lol.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Varicite

[Sevvy]

My point wasn't that burst is the only thing that matters. My point is that burst > DPS in PvP.

[Varicite]

My point wasn't that burst is the only thing that matters. My point is that burst > DPS in PvP.

 

And mine was that that is only the case if you don't have anything else along w/ your DPS.

 

If you have control, defense, and high dps, you can still wreck most anything even w/out extreme burst. You just need "enough" burst, and Maras have that w/ Annihilate on top of their bleeds critting.

 

Are you really this out of touch w/ what good Marauders can do in a WZ? <.<

Edited June 11, 2012 by Varicite

[Xinika]

My point wasn't that burst is the only thing that matters. My point is that burst > DPS in PvP.

 

Sometimes.

[Varicite]

Sometimes.

 

Thank you.

 

At least somebody can understand this.

[Astarica]

neglecting the fact that you CANT skip any worlds because the story wont LET you...

 

If you just make a beeline for story quest you can finish most planet in like 30-60 minutes. Quesh you can probably finish in 10 minutes. But you've to start out about 3 levels higher than the entrance level of the zone since you sure won't be getting any meaningful XP and that means you've to do a ton of PvP.

 

Also most worlds you have to pick up the overall quest before you can even take the shuttle down. For example if you didn't have the world quest in Quesh and attempt to take the shuttle it'll say you're not innoculated against the environment. Sure, you can take the quest, go down, and then abandon it but it seems kind of silly to do that. Once I pick up a quest I tend to do it unless it's grey.

[Astarica]

Burst DPS counters itself if there is no defense against it.

 

Even if you take the nonsensical situation where a class is so powerful that it kills anyone in one hit, by the virtue of it being able to kill itself in one hit, if you somehow were able to put a quota of number of such classes per side, any other player's experience would be that 50% of the time they instantly die but the other 50% of the time all the enemies instantly keel over. It'd be dumb but would be relatively fair. This hypothetical OP class must attack itself first since it cannot defend against its own burst DPS, so if anything this OP class can potentially be dying more often than anyone else, since they'd be attacked by every enemy member, including their mirrors that can instantly kill them.

 

On the other hand having an overpowered class on the defensive side creates the oppsoite (while still maintaining reasonable DPS). There is no incentive for top characters with insane defense to fight each other (they can't kill each other), so they won't, but they sure can kill anyone else fine. This means regardless of who is winning the WZ overall, you'll be on the receiving end of a beatdown if you're not one of those classes.

 

While broken offense and broken defense are both problems, it's actually more painful for the average guy to fight against a broken defense character than broken offense character, simply because all broken offense characters already counter themselves but characters who are broken on defense will have no choice but to avoid themselves.

[Coldin]

Burst DPS counters itself if there is no defense against it.

 

Even if you take the nonsensical situation where a class is so powerful that it kills anyone in one hit, by the virtue of it being able to kill itself in one hit, if you somehow were able to put a quota of number of such classes per side, any other player's experience would be that 50% of the time they instantly die but the other 50% of the time all the enemies instantly keel over. It'd be dumb but would be relatively fair. This hypothetical OP class must attack itself first since it cannot defend against its own burst DPS, so if anything this OP class can potentially be dying more often than anyone else, since they'd be attacked by every enemy member, including their mirrors that can instantly kill them.

 

On the other hand having an overpowered class on the defensive side creates the oppsoite (while still maintaining reasonable DPS). There is no incentive for top characters with insane defense to fight each other (they can't kill each other), so they won't, but they sure can kill anyone else fine. This means regardless of who is winning the WZ overall, you'll be on the receiving end of a beatdown if you're not one of those classes.

 

While broken offense and broken defense are both problems, it's actually more painful for the average guy to fight against a broken defense character than broken offense character, simply because all broken offense characters already counter themselves but characters who are broken on defense will have no choice but to avoid themselves.

 

Good point.

 

It's one reason why in general, I like playing Assassin's Creed's PVP. One hit kills everyone. So even if you're getting owned, there's still chances for you to make your own kills. (Of course, this muddied up a bit with other skills that put up decoys, lets them see you first, and other silly things.)

 

 

Sentinels/Marauders really just need some tweaks to their defensive cooldowns. Make it so you can knock him out of his Force Camo with damage, so then you can DOT him to counter that skill.

 

The 99% damage reduction. I don't know. It needs to have a healing reduction coupled with it I think. That way even though they are practically immune to damage, they also simply can't be healed back up either through medpacs, their own bleeds, or a friendly healer.

 

LOTRO has one ability which I think is supposed to be kind of the same end goal. But instead of getting 99% damage reduction, the player simply cannot die. They can be right at 1 point of health, but they will stay there for the duration. That way, even if they are getting heals, as long as the DPS outnumbers the heals, the marauder still dies.

[Superawesomerman]

Thank you.

 

At least somebody can understand this.

 

it seems like every thread boils down this simple formula:

 

1) broad, flawed assertion

2) humorous / troll rebuttal

3) repeat 2, then sometime later,

4) obvious moderate response

5) thread dies until 1) again

 

im definitely guilty of 2 and 4.

 

im going to make a 1) and say if burst was so much more important than sustained then ranked is going to be filled with stabbies, PTs, and snipers. instead i think we're going to see a lot of tanks, maras, and grindy stalemate ranked wzs where the first 30 seconds decides it.

 

also, you people need to differentiate between front loaded and back loaded burst.

 

front loaded) stealthers, snipers, pts, maybe carnage.

backloaded) annamaries (anni maras), rage, mercs

 

if you really want to kill people, you'll have a combination of both types.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Superawesomerman

[Varicite]

it seems like every thread boils down this simple formula:

 

1) broad, flawed assertion

2) humorous / troll rebuttal

3) repeat 2, then sometime later,

4) obvious moderate response

5) thread dies until 1) again

 

So very true, but I've got 5 more minutes 'till I'm off work. : )

[Xerain]

it seems like every thread boils down this simple formula:

 

1) broad, flawed assertion

2) humorous / troll rebuttal

3) repeat 2, then sometime later,

4) obvious moderate response

5) thread dies until 1) again

 

im definitely guilty of 2 and 4.

im going to make a 1) and say if burst was so much more important than sustained then ranked is going to be filled with stabbies, PTs, and snipers. instead i think we're going to see a lot of tanks, maras, and grindy stalemate ranked wzs where the first 30 seconds decides it.

 

also, you people need to differentiate between front loaded and back loaded burst.

 

front loaded) stealthers, snipers, pts, maybe carnage.

backloaded) annamaries (anni maras), rage, mercs

 

if you really want to kill people, you'll have a combination of both types.

 

I'm guilty of 2 and 4 also. And these threads are just all a big repeat of themselves, it's stupid.

 

The rest of your post was about burst and the different types of it... See burst still wins you the game.

[Saltydogg]

I would like to sum up this and all nerf threads by saying....

 

They are POINTLESS!

 

It's obvious BW followed statistics instead of listening to the flood of threads that have been here since 1.2. They make their changes based on facts and not opinions. No matter how loud those opinions are.

 

In conclusion: Please stop.... you're just making yourself look silly.

 

Please you dont have a single idea about what you're talking about. Statistics pre 1.2 was sages/sorcs ops/scound and commando/bh. Seeing that these class were changed slightly and healing took a major hit you are now seeing the marauder/sent for what they truly are. Straight pure dps. Sorry that your one button classes got taken away but hey thats life. So man up and learn how to play because its pretty easy to kill a average Marauder/Sent.

[Saltydogg]

The issue is that a Sent / Mara has 5 defensive cooldowns, whereas every other DPS class only has 2-3.

 

The Sent / Mara also has the highest DPS of all the classes, so having more defenses than all of the other classes seems pretty unwarranted.

 

They are not lacking in any department, save that they need to be within 4m of their opponent. They are NOT the only class that has this restriction, obviously, but have almost TWICE the methods to deal w/ people in their face as almost every other DPS.

 

How do you defend that fact?

 

5 Defensive cool downs you say? Well lets see force cammo skill #1, used positional to escape or to start a fight, cloak of darkness 2#, HEY HOW ABOUT YOU DONT HIT THE MARAUDER FOR A SECOND OR TWO it drops off, #3 and #4 two oh crap buttons meant to kill a person when its a 2 on 1 fight or survive a 1v1 #5 I am still trying to figure out so enlighten me. Oh wait I got it you must mean force choke, man of man what a sweet defensive skill that is. Sorry that we get to have a little cc.

 

One more thing the 4meter range is much much farther than you think when a ranged class can kite you. Further more all our skills require rage, kind of hard to do when you have to constantly hit someone when they are kiting you around. Force leap into cc? Have you ever seen that before? Sorry if you're a ranged class that just stands there and takes a full ravage

 

I am really tired of these nerf posts. People like you cried and cried about commandos/bh's ops/scound's, sorcs and sages. They changed one classes tree completely making assault and the tech tree the only viable option for the class. You people got healing nerfed to the point where ops are better healers than sages. Seriously whats the point of having pvp in a game when all you people do is cry becuase you cant figure out how to beat a marauder/sent one on one?

 

L2P that is all

[Digital_Blade]

Most posts in this thread are focused only on 1 thing, PVP.

 

There are 2 mode's of gameplay in this game PVP and PVE, Nerfing a class in 1 mode will obviously nerf a class in the second. The only way to make sure that classes are balanced in both modes is to not change Variable X but Variable Y. Variable Y being the MASSIVE inflation they gave to Expertise and the relic/adrenal stacking. Mara's and Sentinels only started coming into the picture as OP when Massive amounts of expertise added made even terrible marauders/sentinels capable of dealing high amounts of damage. This holds true for vanguards/powertechs who deal the same massive amounts of damage in short bursts just like marauders/sentinels.

 

Fix the expertise, don't nerf a class that's been relatively unchanged since launch where they were once called one of the worst classes in the game.

[Varicite]

5 Defensive cool downs you say? Well lets see force cammo skill #1, used positional to escape or to start a fight, cloak of darkness 2#, HEY HOW ABOUT YOU DONT HIT THE MARAUDER FOR A SECOND OR TWO it drops off, #3 and #4 two oh crap buttons meant to kill a person when its a 2 on 1 fight or survive a 1v1 #5 I am still trying to figure out so enlighten me. Oh wait I got it you must mean force choke, man of man what a sweet defensive skill that is. Sorry that we get to have a little cc.

 

One more thing the 4meter range is much much farther than you think when a ranged class can kite you. Further more all our skills require rage, kind of hard to do when you have to constantly hit someone when they are kiting you around. Force leap into cc? Have you ever seen that before? Sorry if you're a ranged class that just stands there and takes a full ravage

 

I am really tired of these nerf posts. People like you cried and cried about commandos/bh's ops/scound's, sorcs and sages. They changed one classes tree completely making assault and the tech tree the only viable option for the class. You people got healing nerfed to the point where ops are better healers than sages. Seriously whats the point of having pvp in a game when all you people do is cry becuase you cant figure out how to beat a marauder/sent one on one?

 

L2P that is all

 

You don't know your own cooldowns? BTW, I also play a Marauder, which I've said a few times in this thread.

 

There's also another thread floating about that lists out all of your own cooldowns for you, since you seem to need some help w/ those.

 

"Hey, how about you don't hit the Marauder for 6 seconds for CoP to drop off. Then don't hit him for another 5 seconds while Camo is up and bleeds are ticking; not like you can knock him out of stealth anyway! Oyeah, don't hit him during the 5 seconds of UR also! And don't forget Obfuscate if you depend on white damage!

 

Just go ahead and CC him for 15 seconds or so when he pops all that, right? I mean, it's not like the highest DPS class in the game has you snared and is laying into you the whole time, right?"

 

Seriously, do you even hear how silly that sounds?

 

I haven't said anything about nerfing anything, though I do think that Annihilation's combo of high dps, defense, and control is a bit powerful in most 1v1 situations. It's not impossible to do, obviously, but you certainly have to jump through a LOT more hoops to take one down than just about any other class.

 

If I thought that 1v1 was everything in PvP, I would be playing Annihilation myself, instead of Carnage. I recognize that there's a LOT more to PvP than just 1v1, and that Anni is a selfish spec that excels at 1v1.

 

PS) I urge you to find ANY post by me talking about nerfing anything or any of that utter drivel you posted. I guess in your case, you defend that fact by pointing fingers and lashing out at everyone else around you, lol.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Varicite

[Numerii]

...

 

Okay hold on.

 

First I am laying down a few facts, for one melee have to be compensated for the added difficulty of having to close and remain in melee range. No class that doesn't have to deal with that should be doing equal damage... Why? Because they don't have to do that. Sentinels get no auto-face and they have no significant ranged attacks. They deal with something you don't have to deal with in order to get that extra damage.

 

If a Trooper, for example, could do equal damage to a Sentinel from range then there is no reason to play a Sentinel.

 

Secondly classes that have one, and only one, role available to them with no synergy and no ability to hybridize for utility need to be able to be bar none the best at that role. Otherwise there is no point in playing that class especially if duel specs are added to the game.

 

I can't help but laugh when I hear melee say things like this.

 

There is no difficulty when it comes to a Mara/Sent staying in range of their target, they're constantly using a gap closer it seems. Also, for every amount of "difficulty" a Mara/Sent has to overcome to stay in range has been equally matched in my "difficulty" in keeping a Sent/Mara from gnawing off my leg. Most melee in this game have it too easy when it comes to staying within melee range in PvP.

 

Finally, you do crap damage when being kited, boohoo. If I have to kite a Mara/Sent then I'm also going to do crap damage because the majority of my class' ability to damage someone lies in Force Lightning, a spell I can't use when I'm on the move. You think you're the only one who has to overcome a weakness of your class?

 

I enjoy fighting good Maras/Sents because of these things, unless they have all their cooldowns available because that just dumps all over any semblance of balance and wins them the matchup 90% of the time.

[Dracosz]

I can't help but laugh when I hear melee say things like this.

 

There is no difficulty when it comes to a Mara/Sent staying in range of their target, they're constantly using a gap closer it seems. Also, for every amount of "difficulty" a Mara/Sent has to overcome to stay in range has been equally matched in my "difficulty" in keeping a Sent/Mara from gnawing off my leg. Most melee in this game have it too easy when it comes to staying within melee range in PvP.

 

Finally, you do crap damage when being kited, boohoo. If I have to kite a Mara/Sent then I'm also going to do crap damage because the majority of my class' ability to damage someone lies in Force Lightning, a spell I can't use when I'm on the move. You think you're the only one who has to overcome a weakness of your class?

 

I enjoy fighting good Maras/Sents because of these things, unless they have all their cooldowns available because that just dumps all over any semblance of balance and wins them the matchup 90% of the time.

 

Spec Madness -> Kite all melee -> ??? -> PROFIT

[Astarica]

For the range versus melee argument, the effective 'range' in this game is 10m when not talking about Snipers because leap/pull generally do not work on guys within 10m and yet you still can't hit them until they get into 4m. There is no range deficit for most melee against a non Sniper character at all. In fact, ignoring the Sniper, the Tankasin is by far the strongest range DPS in the game versus melee since it can do damage from 10m and reliably maintain that distance at the same time. There's no way a 30m range DPS can keep you at 30m for any period of time, and even a Sniper usually can at best keep you around 10m away at most via a combination of knockback/root.

[Astarica]

Spec Madness -> Kite all melee -> ??? -> PROFIT

 

That's an effective strategy if you want to be a bait and provoke the enemy into kililng you immediately so they can't be somewhere else.

 

Most good players just shrug when you root them knowing you can't do anything else interesting and move on to someone more important.

[Dracosz]

That's an effective strategy if you want to be a bait and provoke the enemy into kililng you immediately so they can't be somewhere else.

 

Most good players just shrug when you root them knowing you can't do anything else interesting and move on to someone more important.

 

So these *good* players ignore you?

 

I'm not sure whether I want to laugh condescendingly or shake my head sadly...

 

What a *good* player would do is retreat back to LoS, but since you have DOTS as madness you can still deal a TON of damage while you either pursue or swap targets. Madness plays very much akin to how aff locks did in WoW and they kited and dealt CC *all* the time...

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dracosz