Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 You do know pre 1.2 a good marauder was using champ mods over BM mods right so your argument is invalid as you can itemize your gear to the way you want it. If you weren't doing that well then you're one of those bad mara/sents. So no there was no huge gear upgrade and insane dps upgrade. swapped all enhancements, mods for max strength. did I say our dps was increased insanely? so when you swapped all your mods back (you did that for the conversion, right) you were stuck with accuracy again. Typing on phone from work, hopefully you figure out the rest from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Breaking news: operatives and assassins are also melee classes. Operatives not so much - corrosive dart and Orbital strike are used from 30m range. But, in general... Assassins/Operatives are about as much of a melee class as Powertechs/Vanguards. 10m Range is NOT melee range. Yes, ops/assassins/p-techs are BEST in melee range, but they can still do damage from 10m and even 30m - they don't need to stay in melee range the entire time to be effective. Assassins can use recklessness to make force lightning reach 30m (regardless of spec) and they can spec to pick up death field - madness assassins can even toss creeping terror from 30m. But... yes... deception assassins and concealment operatives' bulk of their damage comes from melee range (albeit, they get to stun-lock for when they do this - maras can't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 In the heat of a battle (as in not in 1 vs 1 fights), force camo > vanish. Sins have to pray that vanish doesn't break too early. You can get healed while force camoed which is not the case with vanish unless you have masked assault from the infintration tree. Even if it lasts 4 secs, it's more than enough for marauders/sents to run away and get healed. I'm not saying that vanish is worthless but compared to force camo, it's weaker. That doesn't make you unbiased. Sigh... They're both going to do the samething no matter what in the heat of battle and that's act as a mass target drop and you're still going to have to watch out for where someone pops up, vanish is just as good because it can give the advantage of leaving combat running away and healing up yourself unlike marauders get to do, sometimes in huttball i get that luxury but that's about it. And if they're playing infiltration that gives them another opportunity to open up on someone and wreck them and generate resources faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) In the heat of a battle (as in not in 1 vs 1 fights), force camo > vanish. Sins have to pray that vanish doesn't break too early. You can get healed while force camoed which is not the case with vanish unless you have masked assault from the infintration tree. Even if it lasts 4 secs, it's more than enough for marauders/sents to run away and get healed. I'm not saying that vanish is worthless but compared to force camo, it's weaker. That doesn't make you unbiased. Force camo and Force cloak/Vanish are 2 completely different abilities. I wouldn't trade force cloak for force camo on my assassin (even with the long cooldown) due to its tactical functionality (I and my target are considered out of combat, so I can use my cloaked mez, then seethe myself back to nearly full health, for example) compared to force camo. And it's much easier to escape as assassin/shadow if you combat cloak + force speed (use shroud if you have DoT's on you) compared to force camo force camo can buy you time to get healed, yes, but its best used offensively or to counter 5s roots. Edited June 7, 2012 by SinnedWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matslarson Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Derp... can't use leap on anyone if rooted or it's on cooldown or if target is too close (as carnage - annihilation maras can reduce its minimum range, and rage can use obliterate for targets within 10m) we also can't always keep melee range against kiters that have slows when they aren't slowed or roots. Rediculous number of interrupts? What, all ONE of them that we have to be in melee range to use (but maybe you're counting force charge - which isn't an interrupt per say - I consider it to be a disrupt, and most classes have this capability with more than one method)? Seriously, how the hell does that make us shut down ranged classes (particularly if they use instant-cast abilities)? As my class/spec gets exactly 0 roots, I cbf what you can't do when you're rooted, and *le gasp* you can't use your skills when they're on CD? Sounds like you need a buff to fix that. As for the interrupts, just because you only have 1 hard interrupt doesn't mean you don't have multiple skill with an interrupt attached to them. You can call it whatever makes you feel better about yourself, (interrupt and disrupt mean exactly the same thing anyway) but if it stops me from channeling the skill I was channeling, it counts as an interrupt. As far as all those instant-cast abilities I'll be throwing at you, I have all of two, one of which is the weakest heal of any class and most people only bother casting it for the proc it gives to the next heal (which you'll interrupt anyway) and the other is a shield you can break through with a single skill, two skills at MOST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I can't believe there are people who rather have Force Cloak over Force Camo in PvP (in PvE, that's a different issue). 9 out of 10 times if I use Force Cloak I get hit immediately out of it by a dot or an AE. If I use Force Shroud which grants me effective immunity to most stuff to ensure I escape, why am I using Force Cloak in the first place? After all I can't get healed back up while Force Cloak is active unless I spec Deception. I don't mind if the intention is that since Marauders don't have permanent stelath they get a better Vanish, but stop pretending Force Cloak is better than Force Camo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Lets not forget camo is 50% damage reduction and mini sprint, and on a vastly shorter cooldown, meaning you can,actually use it for utility and not just as an escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I can't believe there are people who rather have Force Cloak over Force Camo in PvP (in PvE, that's a different issue). 9 out of 10 times if I use Force Cloak I get hit immediately out of it by a dot or an AE. If I use Force Shroud which grants me effective immunity to most stuff to ensure I escape, why am I using Force Cloak in the first place? After all I can't get healed back up while Force Cloak is active unless I spec Deception. I don't mind if the intention is that since Marauders don't have permanent stelath they get a better Vanish, but stop pretending Force Cloak is better than Force Camo. Totally this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zabrak Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 LOL OK. Yeah a marauder is far more tankier then a class and spec that's walking around with 43% armor around 20% dodge/parry and a ton of self healing that you can pop off quite often... didnt u read?? 50% self healing reduction and 9% dmg mitigation reduc for sins... not saying some of it isnt warranted just asking why somthing similar wasnt done to the mara/sents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matslarson Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 didnt u read?? Of course he didn't, that would just be silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkshadz Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) Sigh... They're both going to do the samething no matter what in the heat of battle and that's act as a mass target drop and you're still going to have to watch out for where someone pops up, vanish is just as good because it can give the advantage of leaving combat running away and healing up yourself unlike marauders get to do, sometimes in huttball i get that luxury but that's about it. And if they're playing infiltration that gives them another opportunity to open up on someone and wreck them and generate resources faster. A sin who has to go out of combat to heal himself is not helping his teammates much. Marauders have the option of NOT DOING THAT if they have a good healer (like in premades). 4 secs is enough for a healer to heal you back to full or almost full. Trust me, marauders don't die easily with good healers in their team. Well juggs don't, yet they are not as resilient as marauders. I don't think you understand why people want your favorite class to get nerfed. Let me clarify one thing: I'm speaking of premade WZs. On my server, lots of imps rerolled marauders/tank sins and let me tell you, good luck killing their healers when 4 tank sins/marauders protect them. Tank sins got nerfed, marauders should've being nerfed too. When I say 4 tank sins/marauders in WZs, I'm not exaggerating. Infil shadows are currently weaker than marauders and the nerf to adrenals in 1.3 will make them even less desirable than marauders for DPS. Their burst damage is predictable and not very hard to counter. Even if they can vanish and get healed up, they are so squishy that they die soon after going back in combat Let's be honest Xerain, how many infil shadows/darkness shadows do you see in WZs? I told myself to hug every sin who's darkness spec. Not much hugs so far edit: Astarica got my point about force camo Edited June 7, 2012 by Darkshadz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyvoid Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Some sort of sick joke, right? I was going to say that it's just cause you guys fail, but instead I'll just laugh and enjoy this moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 If sents were not so counterable in very high level play, I would say they need a big nerf. As it is, a nerf to force camo would probably be enough, like a longer cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkshadz Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 If sents were not so counterable in very high level play, I would say they need a big nerf. As it is, a nerf to force camo would probably be enough, like a longer cooldown. I would also put a longer cooldown on GBTF but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthNuke Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 If Sents and Maras are gonna stay as is.....they might as well let Operatives be able to gib people again....so they stop whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I would also put a longer cooldown on GBTF but that's just me. I really dont use gbtf all that much in even fights, so id be fine with that too. Secretly, I hope we keep the force camo. I miss the days of 100% damage reduction, rofl. 1.1 we were so godly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I really dont use gbtf all that much in even fights, so id be fine with that too. Secretly, I hope we keep the force camo. I miss the days of 100% damage reduction, rofl. 1.1 we were so godly. Marauders need some quality of life nerfs that makes the game more enjoyable for the average versus average skill case which is far more prevalent than top versus top. Force Camo losing 100% damage reduction hurts Marauders on the high end considerably (probably was what pushed Tankasin over them) and yet the average guy thinks Marauders got buffed in 1.2, because in an average versus average fight, the nuance of having a 100% damage reduction Force Camo would never come into play. Either Force Camo needs a longer CD or Cloak of Pain needs to last shorter (or longer CD). I think Undying Rage is fine really. It's the stuff that people don't complain about that are what makes Marauders strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 didnt u read?? 50% self healing reduction and 9% dmg mitigation reduc for sins... not saying some of it isnt warranted just asking why somthing similar wasnt done to the mara/sents Oh because their self healing was ridic high right? You know how often you can pop off a lightning that heals you as a sin? A LOT. And it's 50% reduction on their charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Marauders need some quality of life nerfs that makes the game more enjoyable for the average versus average skill case which is far more prevalent than top versus top. Force Camo losing 100% damage reduction hurts Marauders on the high end considerably (probably was what pushed Tankasin over them) and yet the average guy thinks Marauders got buffed in 1.2, because in an average versus average fight, the nuance of having a 100% damage reduction Force Camo would never come into play. Either Force Camo needs a longer CD or Cloak of Pain needs to last shorter (or longer CD). I think Undying Rage is fine really. It's the stuff that people don't complain about that are what makes Marauders strong. Some of the quality of life improvements were huge, particularly the pacify buff, so frickin good. But yeah, a lot of people dont understand how good we can be. Which works, because it means we probably wont get nerfed. The worst nerf I think was moving the 80% transcendance to high combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Oh because their self healing was ridic high right? You know how often you can pop off a lightning that heals you as a sin? A LOT. And it's 50% reduction on their charge. I just force camo it, lol. Do you vanish my ravage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankorSSGS Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Xinika - I have great respect for you and your support of the Shadow community...but you are better than this This exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audenlol Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 This exactly Not sure if serious. So a guy puts out videos destroying virtually anyone he is up against, answers some basic questions (that I M surprised need asking) and you all expect them to be above qq? Have some common sense. People like that have a huge ego, and will cry about xxxx until the character they play is superman. Been the same way with mmo players since I started in 1999 in Everquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Lol, noone defending xerain? I SUPPORT YOU BRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthNuke Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Marauder takes skill to play. Is that why there are at least 4 in every WZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) I just force camo it, lol. Do you vanish my ravage? Yeah i camo or choke the HD lightning. No you can+ knock them back, spike them, stun them, or speed on top of vanishing too. Assassins have a lot more alternatives to defend against ravage. Edited June 7, 2012 by Xerain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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