1.3 Juggernaut Changes

[RiskHarbinger]

Immortal is overall better for PvE but if you know how to manage a Hybrid spec then you can do any raid just fine. The Hybrid caters more to those who do both PvP and PvE so if you do plenty of both then you should give it a shot. But if you are straight up PvE then yeah full Immortal is the overall best option, doesn't mean the Hybrid isn't playable though just has to be in the hands of the right player.

[Harey]

Shield Spec is way better than you think it is, 4% shield + 4% internal and elemental is just as good as 4% flat damage reduction, especially when you factor in your absorb rating. The 15% damage reduction from the CD is unnecessary as Juggs/Guards already have good CD's and your healers shouldn't need you to be using that off CD.

 

You can produce Sonic Barriers slightly faster, but the damage it mitigates is very very minimal over a fight as long as HM Kephiss. The only real problem with hybrid is the main problem with hybrid, it is hard to manage rage, and the damage you gain shouldn't be necessary for your raid.

 

Hybrid: Same or very close to the same survivability as Immortal, hard to manage rage, unnecessary damage increase.

 

Immortal: Easy to manage rage, AoE Crushing Blow, same or close to the same survivability as Hybrid, lower damage that doesn't matter because you're a tank.

 

What's the point in going hybrid? It's unnecessary, and since most likely BW will eventually change the Immortal spec to be the "be all end all" tanking spec as it should've been from 1.0, it's best to get used to it in my opinion.

 

If someone wants to play hybrid, I say go for it, but don't pretend it's better than Immortal, and don't pretend it's necessary as it was in 1.0. Not that you are, I'm just saying in general.

 

While i'd agree on your summary of the different styles in general i still think that a 15 percent damage reduction every 45secs for 10 secs can be a very useful tanking skill ( i will admit it is also possibly the fastest way to a raid wipe if the ability is used poorly , and on Toth and Zorn it is next to useless )

 

I just don't see a need personally to have 4 percent shield spec when im sitting at 48 percent at moment with gear alone and hence my reluctance to invest any higher than blade barricade in the defence tree.

 

My real problem with the tanking tree is that Bioware have with each patch reduced the talents held within to a former shadow of themselves with no explanation even hinted at , the dps loss doesnt really bother me that much ( i dont pvp alot ) its just i find the majority of defence tree talents poorly thought out.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Harey

[Craxim]

While i'd agree on your summary of the different styles in general i still think that a 15 percent damage reduction every 45secs for 10 secs can be a very useful tanking skill ( i will admit it is also possibly the fastest way to a raid wipe if the ability is used poorly , and on Toth and Zorn it is next to useless )

 

I just don't see a need personally to have 4 percent shield spec when im sitting at 48 percent at moment with gear alone and hence my reluctance to invest any higher than blade barricade in the defence tree.

 

My real problem with the tanking tree is that Bioware have with each patch reduced the talents held within to a former shadow of themselves with no explanation even hinted at , the dps loss doesnt really bother me that much ( i dont pvp alot ) its just i find the majority of defence tree talents poorly thought out.

 

Useful, maybe, necessary, no. You'd be surprised the difference 48 to 52 can make, especially if you have 55+ absorb rating.

[Zimmman]

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous. Tank DPS shouldn't be required to beat any enrage currently in the game, the hybrid's better damage is pointless.

 

I will be nice and point out a few things that should help you under stand how hybrid has better survivability.

 

Past th 17 point in the imortal tree that you get in a hybrid spec you gian:

1. 4% internal damage reductio

2. 4% shield (remeber not all atacks can be shielded)

 

With hybrid you lose the above 2 to gain:

1. 4% ALL damage redection

2. 9 sec CD on sonic barrier vers a 12 sec

 

Hope we can all follow that logic, sorry typed from my phone.

[vandana_]

The 15% damage reduction from the CD is unnecessary as Juggs/Guards already have good CD's and your healers shouldn't need you to be using that off CD.

 

Extra 15% all damage reduction 45 second cooldown is invaluable. To say otherwise is ridiculous. As is advocating that extra damage is unnecessary when you can have it at nearly the same or the same survivability. On early progression any raid leader with half of a brain will choose higher damage dealing tank over lower damage dealing tank provided they are equally skilled and their survivability is the same.

Edited June 30, 2012 by vandana_

[Invictos]

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous.

 

Irrefutably false. The hybrid has more mitigation by the numbers. It also has situational crowd-control immunity. Even if we accept the preposterous notion that Dark Blood (4% resistance to internal/elemental) and Shield Specialization (+4% to Shield chance) are collectively twice as good as Deafening Defense (4% resistance to all damage), then the hybrid can still fall back on the following: 33% more uptime on Sonic Barrier, the occasional 20% damage resistance from Unstoppable, and an extra 15% damage resistance during Enraged Defense.

 

You can't argue with a straight face that Shield Specialization trumps all of that, and before you can even try to make that argument, you have to convince us that 4% resistance to some damage types is somehow equivalent to 4% resistance to all damage types.

 

If that sounds harsh, then I apologize, but you aren't just mistaken in this case; you're obviously mistaken and you're proclaiming the correct position ridiculous. If you want to make a case that the hybrid's survivability advantage is of no practical consequence, or you wish to make a case that the Immortal spec's resource-management advantage outweighs the hybrid's extra survivability -- then be my guest, but those are different arguments.

 

And to answer another poster's concern, expressed earlier -- it is true that the traditional hybrid has fewer resources to spend, but the lovely thing about the Crushing Blow nerf is that it completely removes the hybrid's perceived obligation to use Impale as often as it's available. You can get comparable-to-Immortal-spec damage on a hybrid by using Vicious Slash instead. I'm seriously torn about even taking Impale (or more accurately, the Guardian's mirror talent, Overhead Slash), post-1.3. If you want to go full tank then there's no obvious reason that you should have to take a heavy hitter; the devs themselves have declared that tanks don't need one, after all.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Invictos

[Powerrmongerr]

Hybrid has better survivability (though I'm sure you can find some oddball boss that does elemental/internal damage that can be shielded in which case the immortal would be better ... maybe ...).

 

Go google the relevant maths, read them. But to recap:

 

1.)20% damage reduction from unstoppable (seems like a lot of bosses have knock back ... you might be leaping more than you think);

 

2.)Sonic Barrier every 9 seconds versus every 12. Don't underestimate this.

 

3.)4% damage reduction OVERALL, versus 4% shield (of limited use) and 4% internal/elemental (kind of a slap in the face for a fifth tier talent)

 

4.)Endure pain lasts 5 seconds shorter. You know what, if the 10 extra seconds didn't save you, another 5 probably didn't.

 

5.)Enraged defense becomes an extra 15% shield that, when combined with BOTH taunts, presents no aggro drops. Sure, you have to know what you're doing as this is a rage drain and an aggro drop, but this is a mere 45 seconds cooldown.

 

6.)You have an aoe taunt on a 30 second cooldown that's only good against humanoids, versus that same aoe taunt on a 45 second cooldown AND a 3 second stun (backhand) on a 60 second cooldown. I do consider cc to be damage reducers to a certain extent, and this is actually a clear advantage for the immortal spec. However, considering that when you really need these abilities they'll be useless (against tough bosses), I'm not that impressed.

 

It's really not even close. Hybrid has significantly more survivability, and does more dps. However, it requires a great deal of skill to get the most out of it, and requires a ton of energy to manage, as it is a rage starved spec. I get a little leery when I see people recommending the hybrid without mentioning this fact, as you are going to WORK to ensure that Force Scream, impale, and your execution move (when available) are procced as soon as they come off cooldown. And if you don't do that work in terms of maximizing and learning your rotations .. and I mean really, really well so that it's second nature, you might as well have gone immortal.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Powerrmongerr

[Craxim]

This is clearly a losing battle, I see no point arguing further. Throw all the reasons you want, my opinion remains that hybrid is unnecessary and not worth the work it takes to keep the rage. If your raid REALLY needs that extra damage, I feel sorry for you as a player that you have to play with such bad DPS. If your raid REALLY needs the 15% damage reduction off CD, I feel sorry for you as a player that you have to play with such terrible healers. All I can say is best of luck to you in your NMM Denova progression, hope whatever you choose works for you.

[vandana_]

This is clearly a losing battle, I see no point arguing further. Throw all the reasons you want, my opinion remains that hybrid is unnecessary and not worth the work it takes to keep the rage. If your raid REALLY needs that extra damage, I feel sorry for you as a player that you have to play with such bad DPS. If your raid REALLY needs the 15% damage reduction off CD, I feel sorry for you as a player that you have to play with such terrible healers. All I can say is best of luck to you in your NMM Denova progression, hope whatever you choose works for you.

 

What we REALLY need is a fixed class, a fixed Immortal tree and especially Crushing Blow. This is the point of this whole discussion which you call "an argument". To point out that Immortal spec is so broken that even unintended hybrid spec is better.

Edited July 5, 2012 by vandana_

[Invictos]

This is clearly a losing battle, I see no point arguing further. Throw all the reasons you want, my opinion remains that hybrid is unnecessary and not worth the work it takes to keep the rage. If your raid REALLY needs that extra damage, I feel sorry for you as a player that you have to play with such bad DPS. If your raid REALLY needs the 15% damage reduction off CD, I feel sorry for you as a player that you have to play with such terrible healers. All I can say is best of luck to you in your NMM Denova progression, hope whatever you choose works for you.

 

You made a claim that is obviously and demonstrably false. The hybrid has more raw survivability than the Immortal spec. Period. Whether that extra survivability is meaningful in practice, whether it's worth the extra resource-management constraints of the build -- those are interesting questions worthy of discussion.

 

But instead of simply acknowledging your mistake and moving onto the more productive discussion, you've decided to take your ball and go home, tossing ad hominems in your wake. Best of luck to you too, broski; enjoy nursing your fragile ego.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Invictos

[sithgreyguard]

i am a lvl 50 tank and working towards columi, rakata. a guild friend told me the whole immortal tree is now broken is this true? Edited July 5, 2012 by sithgreyguard

[Craxim]

i am a lvl 50 tank and working towards columi, rakata. a guild friend told me the whole immortal tree is now broken is this true?

 

Depends on who you want to believe. I clear 16 man HM EC and Nightmare Pilgrim weekly as full Immortal, as does our other Jugg tank who is full Immortal. Some people on these forums insist that the hybrid is better, and some of them clear the content with it too. So clearly, either works, it just comes down to whether or not you want/need the extra damage and are willing to increase the difficulty of your class significantly.

[vandana_]

i am a lvl 50 tank and working towards columi, rakata. a guild friend told me the whole immortal tree is now broken is this true?

 

Immortal is a great tree for beginners because it's easy to generate rage tanking in it. You won't really notice it's drawbacks until you get some experience and reach the endgame. What you are asking is - is immortal so broken it's impossible to play using it - the answer is no, not by a long shot

 

People who say it's broken (including myself) mean that being a dedicated tanking tree it has not that useful abilities for bosses in operations in the higher skill point tiers. And it's useless for PvP.

Edited July 5, 2012 by vandana_

[Elyx]

Saying the immortal tree is broken is vastly exaggerating the situation. Reminds me of my teenage son who's life is ending when the internet goes down and he can't play xbox.

 

It's not broke. It does less damage now (by around 15% or so overall), but threat is much higher. mitigations are similar now to what they were before.

 

I prefer to spec full immortal for tanking progression. IM comfortable with my rotations in full Immortal spec, and other then a damage decrease (which our sorcs make up for with their new augments), I don't noticed a difference at all.

 

The new Crushing blow is nice with its faster debuff stacking, and hitting 3 targets (smart targets I might add), even if the damage is reduced. backhand damage is painful to look at now...but it still does exactly what it's supposed to do....build high threat and stun a target.

 

So the changes aren't breaking....they are just irritating. most good players accepted them and moved on. My biggest gripe with it was I never understood the damage nerfs. But they are there now...and even with Bio silent on them, they aren't going away (any times soon). But they also haven't slowed me down.

 

currently running a hybrid for non progression stuff...it's not bad. with my DPS companion, things die about as fast as my vengeance spec (a little slower, but meh). and I can switch right over and tank HM's and heroics with ease. But i still use full immortal, and it's still enjoyable. I just tune out how much damage im doing and its all good.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Elyx

[Invictos]

Saying the immortal tree is broken is vastly exaggerating the situation. Reminds me of my teenage son who's life is ending when the internet goes down and he can't play xbox.

 

It's not broke. It does less damage now (by around 15% or so overall), but threat is much higher. mitigations are similar now to what they were before.

 

You're right; Immortal isn't broken in the sense that it's non-functional -- but from a design perspective, we can make a case that the Immortal skill tree is broken, or at least sorely in need of revision. The tree simply doesn't offer enough functional benefit for the investment, and what benefits it does offer appear to be assembled as if at random, their sum bereft of a coherent over-arching theme or progression.

 

To the extent that Immortal tree has any (arguable) unifying purpose, it's to reduce the resource-management penalties of the tank stance (Soresu), which Guardians and Juggernauts get for free. The developers, via the Guardian/Juggernaut and Immortal-tree design, are basically saying to the player, "Here's your best tool for tanking right off the bat; now you can level up and specialize in making that tool suck less."

 

All of the above was true even before patch 1.3; the Immortal spec's tangible tanking talents were all more or less collected at the bottom, with most of the higher-tier talents devoted to resource management. But prior to 1.2, the top-tier Immortal talent (Crushing Blow) was at least an obviously useful attack, a worthwhile prize (albeit perhaps not a particularly tank-focused prize) for having invested so heavily in the tree.

 

Now? Crushing Blow is at best redundant: the new threat boosts to Soresu form (both innate and via Single Saber Mastery) massively improve Smash and Sweeping Slash's AoE threat. And the new Crushing Fist talent, combined with the global revision to debuff stacking, render Crushing Blow's sundering effect functionally irrelevant. Both Smash and Sweeping Slash have, per my understanding, wider areas of effect than the context-dependent AoE of Crushing Blow, so if you're using those two tools as well as you can, you're not going to have any AoE aggro problems that 1.3-era Crushing Blow would fix.

 

And single-target aggro is even less an issue now than it was prior to 1.3, with or without Crushing Blow, which by the way only delivers roughly the same amount of damage as Vicious Slash -- which has no cooldown, costs no talent points, and costs 25% less Rage per activation.

 

The bottom line is that the nerf to Immortal's damage output was unnecessary. Personally, I don't care about the damage, per se; you don't need good damage to tank, after all. If the damage nerf had come packaged with a sensible re-design of the Immortal tree, then that would have been one thing. Instead, 1.3 gave us a rather large threat buff (which was aimed not at Juggernauts, but at all tanks) and a couple of low-tier talents in various trees that seem almost deliberately crafted to marginalize the now reduced-in-damage Crushing Blow.

TL; DR; The only area where 1.3-era Immortal is even remotely competitive with the hybrid is in group PvE. If you prefer the Immortal spec in that setting, then more power to you; I can't tell you you're wrong -- but just because you can make the Immortal spec work for you, it doesn't follow that the tree is well-designed, or that you're getting a good return on your skill points.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Invictos

[Invictos]

Oh, and a small note on this:

 

So the changes aren't breaking....they are just irritating. most good players accepted them and moved on. My biggest gripe with it was I never understood the damage nerfs. But they are there now...and even with Bio silent on them, they aren't going away (any times soon).

 

That's one of things that's so irritating about the change, actually. Bioware just got finished giving Guardians/Juggernauts a global damage buff in patch 1.2; then they did a 180-degree turn in patch 1.3, nerfing Jugg, and particularly Immortal Jugg, damage.

 

So I wouldn't say that we should just hang our heads and accept the inevitability of the nerf. If anything, history shows us that Bioware is unsure of what direction to take with the class. That isn't to say that we should all get our knives and pitchforks and stage a frothing-at-the-mouth protest, but we shouldn't necessarily resign ourselves, either. Perhaps if enough people respec out of Crushing Blow, Bioware will revisit the talent in 1.4, for example. I wouldn't be shocked if the tree got some attention in the future just based on PvP metrics, either. (Pretty much everyone seems to agree that full Immortal is a waste of time in PvP.)

Edited July 5, 2012 by Invictos

[vandana_]

So I wouldn't say that we should just hang our heads and accept the inevitability of the nerf. If anything, history shows us that Bioware is unsure of what direction to take with the class. That isn't to say that we should all get our knives and pitchforks and stage a frothing-at-the-mouth protest, but we shouldn't necessarily resign ourselves, either. Perhaps if enough people respec out of Crushing Blow, Bioware will revisit the talent in 1.4, for example. I wouldn't be shocked if the tree got some attention in the future just based on PvP metrics, either. (Pretty much everyone seems to agree that full Immortal is a waste of time in PvP.)

 

I see no reason why fixing the tree should wait until 1.4. It should happen as soon as possible for PVP and before introduction of EC Nightmare Mode for PvE. Bioware dealing with the Immortal tree and aoe threat reminds me of an old Czech cartoon "Pat & Mat " who would demolish half of a building in order to bring a piano to floor 5.

 

Seriously BW, remove this idiotic AOE from Crushing Blow. Example of how stupid this change is: CB now hits shield generator in Stormcaller and Firebrand when it could greatly help with some burst single target dps on adds.

 

P.S. Knives and pitchforks from those moaning about Jugg AOE threat was what brought us to this misery in the first place.

Edited July 6, 2012 by vandana_

[Craxim]

Saying the immortal tree is broken is vastly exaggerating the situation. Reminds me of my teenage son who's life is ending when the internet goes down and he can't play xbox.

 

It's not broke. It does less damage now (by around 15% or so overall), but threat is much higher. mitigations are similar now to what they were before.

 

I prefer to spec full immortal for tanking progression. IM comfortable with my rotations in full Immortal spec, and other then a damage decrease (which our sorcs make up for with their new augments), I don't noticed a difference at all.

 

The new Crushing blow is nice with its faster debuff stacking, and hitting 3 targets (smart targets I might add), even if the damage is reduced. backhand damage is painful to look at now...but it still does exactly what it's supposed to do....build high threat and stun a target.

 

So the changes aren't breaking....they are just irritating. most good players accepted them and moved on. My biggest gripe with it was I never understood the damage nerfs. But they are there now...and even with Bio silent on them, they aren't going away (any times soon). But they also haven't slowed me down.

 

currently running a hybrid for non progression stuff...it's not bad. with my DPS companion, things die about as fast as my vengeance spec (a little slower, but meh). and I can switch right over and tank HM's and heroics with ease. But i still use full immortal, and it's still enjoyable. I just tune out how much damage im doing and its all good.

 

I agree with this very much. To act like a hybrid is necessary or that it is somehow better is just hard for me to comprehend. I took the nerf like a player who is used to nerfs and moved on. I'm not in the guilds of the people crying nay over the damage nerfs, so I don't know what it's like for them, but personally, we saw absolutely 0 change to our damage nerfs. We have 2 jugg tanks, and a PT tank, which also got a nerf, they even changed the way debuffs are read and applied to damage on bosses, and we still didn't see a change. All of our DPS got some extra augments (most already have quite a few) and they continued to play at the top of their game as always and we've been clearing 16 man HM EC + NMP on Tuesdays every Tuesday since the patch. I just fail from my personal experience to see what the big deal is, seeing as I don't PvP (I recognize the importance of the damage nerf here). I don't agree with any of the nerfs, I'd like an explanation, etc, but the nerf didn't kill me, and the other things that came a long with it made me feel like I'd been buffed overall, so I was happy.

 

But the Immortal spec is FAR from broken, as I said, we clear the top tier content with 2 of them every week, just fine, and will dive in excitedly as full Immortal when NMM comes out. If we see then that a damage nerf was huge, and we're forced to respec hybrid to beat enrage, I'll happily come here and tell the world I was wrong and that Immortal was broken but as of now, I don't foresee that happening.

[errant_knight]

I don't know about immortal, but my Vengence Juggernaut, who used to do almost as much damage as my sniper, is now pretty horrible. He's spec'd for damage, so he has serious problems with the beating that the extra aggro brings and his hits are approximately 50% less powerful than they were. He can't end the fights quickly enough that near death isn't the norm. It's gone from being my favorite combat to a brutal, touch-and-go slog. Edited July 7, 2012 by errant_knight

[vandana_]

Ok now that Georg Zoeller has left the company can the new person look into Immortal tree and fix it please? It is unacceptable that the tanking tree is designed with fighting trash rather than bosses in mind. Besides this topic has been already discussed in this whole thread and backed with some very reasonable arguments. Thank you. Edited July 12, 2012 by vandana_

[a_beast_]

wow some good point here,

 

what id like to know is whats the best stats as an immortal jugger ?

 

am sitting at 28/50/50 as suggested my alot of forum reading/charts but ive also seen 20/45/70

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this is confusing as bw wont even tell me what the max is before DR ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[vandana_]

wow some good point here,

 

what id like to know is whats the best stats as an immortal jugger ?

 

am sitting at 28/50/50 as suggested my alot of forum reading/charts but ive also seen 20/45/70

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this is confusing as bw wont even tell me what the max is before DR ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

this article should answer your question regarding DR:

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/02/guides-shield-versus-defense.html

 

If you are 28/50/50 you are comfortable in any Denova fight. I'm guessing you have best in slots but if not - don't sacrifice too much health to get those mitigation stats. I personally sit at 26k fully buffed.

Edited July 22, 2012 by vandana_

[a_beast_]

this article should answer your question regarding DR:

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/02/guides-shield-versus-defense.html

 

If you are 28/50/50 you are comfortable in any Denova fight. I'm guessing you have best in slots but if not - don't sacrifice too much health to get those mitigation stats. I personally sit at 26k fully buffed.

 

 

ty for the reply,

 

u can see my confusion as the chart shows mitigation at 70% abs,

so there is a massive difference from (what ive read 50%abs to 70% abs) on the chart.

 

i do spike quite badly so ill increase my shi/abs to max as stated on the chart and see how that goes

 

i dont have a prob in denova but thats cos we have great healers, but the more easier i can make it for them the better

[feefty]

Question/questions...

OK so have level 50 jugg pretty much rakata/BH gear. I am still having a small problem keeping ae agro. Use think its sweeping slash and the instant 6 rage to keep pumping out the ae hits. Even with the armor stacking from smash still have a lot of problems when a dps using ae's goes at it. From what I understand assassins have relatively better ae agro... Is there going to be something to help us match their agro in the future?

[vandana_]

ty for the reply,

 

u can see my confusion as the chart shows mitigation at 70% abs,

so there is a massive difference from (what ive read 50%abs to 70% abs) on the chart.

 

i do spike quite badly so ill increase my shi/abs to max as stated on the chart and see how that goes

 

i dont have a prob in denova but thats cos we have great healers, but the more easier i can make it for them the better

 

you can see from the charts that you start hitting serious DR at around 28% defense and 60% shield/absorb. that's why you should get 28/50/50. it's hard to go much higher than that 50/50 shield/absorb without sacrificing too much health.

Edited July 23, 2012 by vandana_