JidaiGeki Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Don't forget that your high impact bolt also now deals splash damage. There are many added mechanisms to make this Tanking advanced class significantly more effective at dealing AOE damage. They even stated in the patch that it was felt each class is intended to fill a role so that all classes working together have synergy and no one class replaces another. HIB/RS will proc ion overload damage (not sure of the name of the vanguard equivalent), which is an extremely small amount. Yes, the group slow will be nice, but is that very minor gain worth the loss of 30% crit damage and 16% crit chance on the skill our entire tree revolves around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 HIB/RS will proc ion overload damage (not sure of the name of the vanguard equivalent), which is an extremely small amount. Yes, the group slow will be nice, but is that very minor gain worth the loss of 30% crit damage and 16% crit chance on the skill our entire tree revolves around? Your tree is changing. Let's not cry over it yet. I think they looked and saw that there were abilities that tanks were never using and decided to give you more of them. Now RP/SS is no longer your main ability it will just be one of your abilities. It becomes the let's use it now, but we can hit a few Surges just before we rp someone. The RS slow for pvp will be amazing. A 5 man slow is way more of a boost than the loss of RP/SS damage which not a single guy attacking you worried about. Think about it, we hate Juggernaught/Guardians and Sent/Mara's for that freaking slow that they spam aoe wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JidaiGeki Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Now RP/SS is no longer your main ability it will just be one of your abilities. It becomes the let's use it now, but we can hit a few Surges just before we rp someone. RP/SS is talented for a DOT, a snare, a crit chance bonus and a crit damage bonus. No other ability is talented as much in the tank tree as this one. It is clearly our main ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenFry Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 OK, I have to amend my previous comments. Doing Toth & Zorn on 8-man hard mode last night, there was one point in the fight (shortly before the second leap) that a ranged DPS would pull off me pretty consistently. So a buff to threat isn't ENTIRELY irrelevant. But I can still avoid that by firing off a single additional taunt at any point before that pull happens, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 OK, I have to amend my previous comments. Doing Toth & Zorn on 8-man hard mode last night, there was one point in the fight (shortly before the second leap) that a ranged DPS would pull off me pretty consistently. So a buff to threat isn't ENTIRELY irrelevant. But I can still avoid that by firing off a single additional taunt at any point before that pull happens, so... Than your melee dps is subpar or you have no melee dps. Vanguards and Marauders should be pushing your threat every single time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 RP/SS is talented for a DOT, a snare, a crit chance bonus and a crit damage bonus. No other ability is talented as much in the tank tree as this one. It is clearly our main ability. Incorrect SS has the ability to proc Ion's dot which has a slow attached to it. It does not have it's own snare and dot. Now you can use it to slow someone or you can use HiB to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JidaiGeki Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Incorrect SS has the ability to proc Ion's dot which has a slow attached to it. It does not have it's own snare and dot. Now you can use it to slow someone or you can use HiB to do it. That's splitting hairs- you knew what I meant. We put talent points into the tank tree for a 100% proc on the dot from rocket punch, and a 100% chance to snare, so yes, essentially, RP/SS is talented to produce a DOT/snare effect. Semantics do not detract from the fact that RP/SS is the bread-and-butter ability of the shieldtech/shield specialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 That's splitting hairs- you knew what I meant. We put talent points into the tank tree for a 100% proc on the dot from rocket punch, and a 100% chance to snare, so yes, essentially, RP/SS is talented to produce a DOT/snare effect. Semantics do not detract from the fact that RP/SS is the bread-and-butter ability of the shieldtech/shield specialist. I am aware of what you meant, but the snare is applied to the dot, and not the attack so the semantics are still valid. Regardless, my point still stands. It was your bread and butter because of it's damage the dot and slow were simply bonuses. Now your bread and butter will switch to a more versatile attack. How is this a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I am aware of what you meant, but the snare is applied to the dot, and not the attack so the semantics are still valid. Regardless, my point still stands. It was your bread and butter because of it's damage the dot and slow were simply bonuses. Now your bread and butter will switch to a more versatile attack. How is this a bad thing? Because sadly too many tanks are worried about loldamage as opposed to group role attacks/slows/etc. I'll take that slow anyday, as with rateds coming soon, this will only further enhance a tanks usefulness. I can live with some DPS loss in favor of a more viable utility in PvP. Seems all good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JidaiGeki Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I am aware of what you meant, but the snare is applied to the dot, and not the attack so the semantics are still valid. Regardless, my point still stands. It was your bread and butter because of it's damage the dot and slow were simply bonuses. Now your bread and butter will switch to a more versatile attack. How is this a bad thing? I can see your point, and I suppose that if these changes go live I'll find out for myself what the changes do for our utility. It's just hard to wrap my head around an out-of-the-blue nerf to our most heavily talented ability (we still have the CD reset and the critical damage chance, albeit nerfed significantly). The changes to threat are irrelevant to PvP, but two instant-cast free elemental AOE attacks is nothing to sniff at, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlyxDinas Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 The changes to threat management are nice but the way they are adjusting Shield spec's DoTs and such does not justify the immense nerf to Stockstrike. It will severely jeopardize the spec for PvP. It already wasn't a high output, burst build. But the removal of what is basically one of the cornerstones of player rotations is going to affect survivability. The defensive stats in PvP are nearly worthless. Some form of worthwhile single target burst is needed, if only as an "offense as defense" move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbus Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Because sadly too many tanks are worried about loldamage as opposed to group role attacks/slows/etc. I'll take that slow anyday, as with rateds coming soon, this will only further enhance a tanks usefulness. I can live with some DPS loss in favor of a more viable utility in PvP. Seems all good to me. I had a big post written up but decided it was not worth it. I will leave you with these 2 important facts. 1.- Defensive stats dont work hence tanks wear dps gear 2.- Single target dps trumps AOE anything be it slow or damage. Thats the reality of it and trying to spin it as a good thing does not change the simple facts in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosomanic Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 2.- Single target dps trumps AOE anything be it slow or damage. Not true. The best team will have a mix of pressure and burst. One good AoE player can put out far more damage than a healer can heal through. This means that the healing is nullified and then some, leaving the rest of the enemies extremely vulnerable to your burst. You need some burst on your team to win, but pressure has its place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Not true. The best team will have a mix of pressure and burst. One good AoE player can put out far more damage than a healer can heal through. This means that the healing is nullified and then some, leaving the rest of the enemies extremely vulnerable to your burst. You need some burst on your team to win, but pressure has its place. Correct, the more people a healer has to heal, the less energy, bullets, or force and time he has available to heal the target you are about to focus fire. If you drop a Dirty-Fighting Scoundrel, Focus Monkey, and VG tank on a group of people while your Sent, Shadow and Sniper single targeted focus fired someone down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeAndSee Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) http://youtu.be/6TKqkOWZVWY It's more like a 19-20% surge loss after DRings, not 30%. Stockstrike is still taking a huge double dip loss in the 20% surge bonus and 16% crit. Explosive Surge is a minor damage loss on crits as the new 12% passive boost makes up for the loss. Also, the 2 free Explosive Surges are useful for resource management, but it's no where as hard hitting as Ion Pulse (1100 crits vs 1500). I couldn't see Ion Cells real damage because it's bugged on the PTR. It only hits for 161 initial and 75 dots. Also, it has this really annoying lightning effect that shoots out of the target to you. High Impact Bolt applying Ion Cell MAY make up for the damage loss on Stockstrike, but there's still no reason to remove the surge bonus. Edited June 12, 2012 by ComeAndSee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ehral Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=482557 My take on 1.3 vanguard changes. Preview: I like them a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeAndSee Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=482557 My take on 1.3 vanguard changes. Preview: I like them a lot They're great if you PvE, but it's a big loss in PvP. You can see my response. They could do that...but the real issue is the problem that many MMOs have with tanks in PvP: our job of holding aggro and taking damage in PvE doesn't translate very well into PvP where players can simply ignore us. Having the ability to survive forever doesn't really matter if you can't help keep your team alive. Giving tanks some mobility and utility was a step in the right direction as well as the ability to debuff enemies with taunts. Guard was also somewhat of a solution to "force" players to attack the tank (although it's usually a better idea to kill the healer first, then the tank). What they need to do is give tanks something unique in return for our relative lack of survivability in PvP (when compared to PvE). Edited June 17, 2012 by ComeAndSee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glimmerstrike Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 SS is **** now. I did not trait the trait the 2 SS skills(on live) that are getting nerfed .. My SS hits 900-2300 now vs 2500 to 4000+ as it it now. SS is gutted . If you dot believe me un-trait the 2 talents in question and post you own number. Even if you use the 16% boost it's still a huge nerf. I am so bummed about I am no re-subbing not that anyone cares, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbus Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Correct, the more people a healer has to heal, the less energy, bullets, or force and time he has available to heal the target you are about to focus fire. If you drop a Dirty-Fighting Scoundrel, Focus Monkey, and VG tank on a group of people while your Sent, Shadow and Sniper single targeted focus fired someone down. Really have you tested the changes yet? From my runs on PTS explosive surge is hitting in the 600 to 800 range and criting around 1100. Yes its going to be more resource friendly after a storm but thats about it. At most you might use it to stop a node cap not as a major source of damage. HiB in ion spec is no game changer never has been so again no huge buff in that area. Ion cell still bugged to heck. Really Im amazed you guys even think your going to make a healer break a sweat with these changes. Good PVE change I suppose but just a god aweful change for PVP. I really feel bad for the super commando guys the tech guys can move over pretty easy but you guys are going to go from a low ouput tank with some ability to threaten a attacker on you guarded target, to a super low output tank damage sponge with little to no threat factor at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsolod Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) SS is **** now. I did not trait the trait the 2 SS skills(on live) that are getting nerfed .. My SS hits 900-2300 now vs 2500 to 4000+ as it it now. SS is gutted . If you dot believe me un-trait the 2 talents in question and post you own number. Even if you use the 16% boost it's still a huge nerf. I am so bummed about I am no re-subbing not that anyone cares, lol I just cancelled as well. I've tried playing assault and tactics but I just prefer the in your face style of shield spec. AoE damage may increase overall damage numbers, but single target damage is king in pvp and we just lost our only burst. FYI - The survey they give you afterwards really seems to indicate they are going to a free to play model eventually. Edited June 20, 2012 by handsolod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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