Holy Shadow Nerf! (1.3 PTS)

[DarthNuke]

Shadow

 

•Shadow Strike now displays the correct error message if this ability is used while player is not behind the target.

 

•Combat Technique now generates 100% additional threat while active. The healing generated by this ability has been reduced by approximately 50%. Its armor bonus has been reduced to 115% (down from 150%).

 

•Force Breach (Combat Technique) now generates a high amount of threat.

 

•Spinning Kick now costs 20 Force.

 

•Battle Readiness now increases the damage and healing dealt by all Techniques by 100% for 15 seconds.

 

Kinetic Combat

 

•Slow Time no longer damages a sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemy unless it is the primary target.

 

•Harnessed Shadows: The healing generated by Telekinetic Throw has been reduced to 8% total (down from 12%).

[kaydo_]

-i gain what appears to be significantly more aoe threat and damage

-i'm no longer aoe impotent with CCs nearby

-my healer doesn't get so bored running with me

 

i guess i'm ok with it.

Edited June 6, 2012 by kaydo_

[Groncho]

the amount of armor lowered is not right (125%-130% instead), remember the accuracy change in snipers

should be changed FAST

other changes are ok

[DarthNuke]

I expected a nerf. I was thinking they would drop the base damage while Combat Tech was active, to lower the DPS. Looks like they're ok with the DPS, but nerfed healing and mitigation. Kinda confusing, imo.

[Boarg]

The threat multiplier increase is something all tanks are getting. My biggest worry is this:

 

The healing generated by Combat Technique/Dark Charge has been reduced by approximately 50%.

The healing generated by Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness has been reduced to 8% in total (down from 12% in total).

The armor provided by Combat Technique/Dark Charge has been reduced to +115% (down from 150%).

 

Shadows were already pretty much considered the worst choice for end-game PvE tanking because they are the easiest to get gibbed. They had the least armor, the little self heals don't mean much when you're taking big boss damage, and their shield mechanic isn't as reliable.

 

You do all that and high-end guilds probably consider a shadow tank non-viable for PvE. The changes make more sense in a PvP setting with all the folks running dps gear, but I don't think it's worth breaking PvE tanking balance. It also probably makes real shadow tanks uncompetitive for real dedicated tanking roles in PvP too, because they are so far behind the other two tanking classes for overall durability for things like ball carrying, protecting main healers, and holding nodes on solo D long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Boarg

[DarthNuke]

The threat multiplier increase is something all tanks are getting. My biggest worry is this:

 

 

 

Shadows were already pretty much considered the worst choice for end-game PvE tanking because they are the easiest to get gibbed. They had the least armor, the little self heals don't mean much when you're taking big boss damage, and their shield mechanic isn't as reliable.

 

You do all that and high-end guilds probably consider a shadow tank non-viable for PvE. The changes make more sense in a PvP setting with all the folks running dps gear, but I don't think it's worth breaking PvE tanking balance. It also probably makes real shadow tanks uncompetitive for real dedicated tanking roles in PvP too, because they are so far behind the other two tanking classes for overall durability for thinkings like ball carrying, protecting main healers, and holding nodes on solo D long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

 

Good points. I'm hoping it's not as bad as it sounds. I'm also hoping this tank class doesn't just turn into Marauder and Pyro fodder.

 

On a side note...

 

My Shadow may be OP, I don't know, my server is dead and I can rarely play it. I was dreading missing this window of OP'ness....and it's happened. Stinks. For some reason I have a knack for picking gimp classes in MMOs at launch. This was my first time getting it right. Lol.

[KeyboardNinja]

Shadows were already pretty much considered the worst choice for end-game PvE tanking because they are the easiest to get gibbed. They had the least armor, the little self heals don't mean much when you're taking big boss damage, and their shield mechanic isn't as reliable.

 

The only people who had that opinion were those who have never run with a shadow tank. Kinetic shadows are *amazing* in PvE tanking. The level of passive survivability, especially against weapon attacks, is intensely high (more than 5% beyond guardians). As for the self-heal, it's no where near as useless as you think it is. The nerf today was about 40% of the total self-heal output, or roughly 90 HPS on a Rakata + Black Hole geared shadow. 90 HPS is a surprisingly large amount of survivability, being roughly equivalent to 15% added absorb (if you're just looking at weapon damage) on nightmare mode KP. That's significant.

 

You do all that and high-end guilds probably consider a shadow tank non-viable for PvE. The changes make more sense in a PvP setting with all the folks running dps gear, but I don't think it's worth breaking PvE tanking balance. It also probably makes real shadow tanks uncompetitive for real dedicated tanking roles in PvP too, because they are so far behind the other two tanking classes for overall durability for thinkings like ball carrying, protecting main healers, and holding nodes on solo D long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

 

I know several high-end guilds that run with assassin or shadow tanks. I myself am the main tank for a guild running nightmare modes and hard mode EC. I am certainly concerned about how these changes will affect my survivability in general. I would need to look at the math very carefully, but I think this puts shadow tanks behind vanguards in terms of PvE survivability, and nearly even with guardians (counting the new accuracy debuff).

 

In terms of PvP survivability, these are even more significant nerfs because of the nearly-valueless nature of the shield and defense ratings in PvP. Honestly, this pushes me even *further* in the stalker gear direction, since the survivor gear would only be valuable for the set bonus (which has been made much more attractive with the decreased cost of Spinning Kick) and the extra endurance. With that said though, right now I am a killing *machine* in PvP, easily dueling down even people who vastly out-gear me. They really did need to do something about that.

[Boarg]

The only people who had that opinion were those who have never run with a shadow tank. Kinetic shadows are *amazing* in PvE tanking. The level of passive survivability, especially against weapon attacks, is intensely high (more than 5% beyond guardians). As for the self-heal, it's no where near as useless as you think it is. The nerf today was about 40% of the total self-heal output, or roughly 90 HPS on a Rakata + Black Hole geared shadow. 90 HPS is a surprisingly large amount of survivability, being roughly equivalent to 15% added absorb (if you're just looking at weapon damage) on nightmare mode KP. That's significant.

 

I know several high-end guilds that run with assassin or shadow tanks. I myself am the main tank for a guild running nightmare modes and hard mode EC. I am certainly concerned about how these changes will affect my survivability in general. I would need to look at the math very carefully, but I think this puts shadow tanks behind vanguards in terms of PvE survivability, and nearly even with guardians (counting the new accuracy debuff).

 

In terms of PvP survivability, these are even more significant nerfs because of the nearly-valueless nature of the shield and defense ratings in PvP. Honestly, this pushes me even *further* in the stalker gear direction, since the survivor gear would only be valuable for the set bonus (which has been made much more attractive with the decreased cost of Spinning Kick) and the extra endurance. With that said though, right now I am a killing *machine* in PvP, easily dueling down even people who vastly out-gear me. They really did need to do something about that.

 

Honestly, I think the only reason Shadow tanks still work pretty good currently in high end PvE is just because the content isn't very hard. It doesn't push the boundaries of tank survivability that much. If the content ever gets more difficult, this will change and the driving factor on tanks will be the worst case scenarios as it is in most games. For example, it won't matter if 5% more avoidance on white damage puts Shadows competitive in average damage taken when the situations resulting in wipes are a chain of hard hitting boss abilities on a certain boss. When you're pushing the limits, it's all about effective health and guaranteed mitigation - and Shadows are the clear bottom of the barrel already in both of those catagories.

 

My current perception on ranking PvE tanks is a bit different than yours. I prioritize effective health, guaranteed mitigation, and cooldowns. Currently, it looks like:

 

Guardians->Vanguards->Shadows to me with the grouping at least fairly close. The changes just put Shadows noticeably behind.

 

The one big thing that the Shadow tanks will still have going for them is the Resilience cooldown. There will always be certain fights where that cooldown will let us cheese a boss mechanic and end up making fights much easier than what the other classes can do.

 

And you're right - it will drive even more PvPers into dps gear. However, the players will all be less effective than they are today.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Boarg

[DarthNuke]

Afaik, wasn't Balance supposed to get a buff? I know I read that from a Dev. Rumor was Infiltration would get tweaked too. According to the patch notes, the only changes were nerfs for tank spec.

[Tyresog]

Pretty taken aback by the nerf sledgehammer. More so because we got ZERO dps boost, and for progressive raiding shadow dps is known to be lower end. So now with our tank spec slapped with a significant nerf our endgame pve viability just took a big hit :/

[DarthNuke]

What is Biowares track record with nerfs on the test server?

 

I mean, do they normally go over the top, and then tone it down before pushing live? Or are these the changes we can expect to make live?

[NeverRose]

From PvP POV:

 

I'm ok with self heal changes (I guess?) but the armor nerf? I don't understand it.

 

The slow time change is interesting ;o

[nicolasMVP]

I'm not really worried about the tank shadows, but the removing of adrenals + on hit relics might be a slight problem for infiltration

[nicolasMVP]

From PvP POV:

 

I'm ok with self heal changes (I guess?) but the armor nerf? I don't understand it.

 

The slow time change is interesting ;o

 

I love the slow time change

[DarthNuke]

I love the slow time change

 

It doesnt break crowd control any more...

[NeverRose]

I'm not really worried about the tank shadows, but the removing of adrenals + on hit relics might be a slight problem for infiltration

 

Infiltration was always neglected tbh

[DarthVenizen]

It doesnt break crowd control any more...

 

wrong, it doesn't hit CC'd things anymore, big difference lol

[DarthVenizen]

What is Biowares track record with nerfs on the test server?

 

I mean, do they normally go over the top, and then tone it down before pushing live? Or are these the changes we can expect to make live?

 

those are the changes we can expect live, with maybe some MINOR tweaks, sorc's got small tweaks from their original statement with 1.2 but it didn't make that much of a difference

[KeyboardNinja]

Guardians->Vanguards->Shadows to me with the grouping at least fairly close. The changes just put Shadows noticeably behind.

 

Clearly, you've never tried to heal each of these in the highest-tier raid content of this game. Guardians are extremely squishy compared to shadows and *especially* compared to vanguards. The math shows this, as do the combat logs and practical experience. In terms of guaranteed mitigation, we (currently) have the following:

 

Vanguards >> Shadows > Guardians

 

I put shadows above guardians because of the self-heal, their health pool and their extremely high shield chance. However, if you want *really* guaranteed mitigation (as in, 100%), then guardians go above shadows. The thing though is that the "really" guaranteed mitigation of guardians has vastly inferior statistical value to the "almost" guaranteed mitigation of shadows.

 

In 1.3, shadows will drop to nearly even with equally-geared guardians in terms of statistical mitigation. Vanguards haven't been touched, which puzzles me a bit, since their guaranteed survivability is already well beyond the other two tanks (statistical survivability is currently in line with shadows).

 

We'll see how this works out. I'm not ready to panic yet. To be honest, I'm not particularly concerned with whether or my spec is statistically "better" or "worse" than the other tank classes. All that matters is I have enough survivability that the healers can keep me up without crippling their ability to keep the rest of the raid alive.

Edited June 6, 2012 by KeyboardNinja

[Boarg]

I'm not really worried about the tank shadows, but the removing of adrenals + on hit relics might be a slight problem for infiltration

 

Yeah, that has me scratching my head a bit on how bad it might or might not be.

 

It puts a big cramp in being able to burst people down fast, which was pretty much the best part of the spec. On the other hand, the worst part of the spec is GETTING bursted down fast by someone else.

 

For a class like Scoundrels with front loaded burst, it's a pretty clear lose situation having fights with longer ttk's. Infiltration on the other hand has ramp-up time, so there's cases where it actually gives us more of a chance to get our burst out. If Ttk's get too far out, we get force limited and transition to sustained damage, which isn't a strength of the spec.

 

Overall, I'm just gonna have to play it in the new environment and re-evaluate. My biggest question is whether or not ttk's get long enough to make Balance a strong PvP spec with it's sustained pressure and sustained self healing. I'm thinking probably not - ttk's will still be too short - but maybe.

[RangerBeo]

We'll see how this works out. I'm not ready to panic yet. To be honest, I'm not particularly concerned with whether or my spec is statistically "better" or "worse" than the other tank classes. All that matters is I have enough survivability that the healers can keep me up without crippling their ability to keep the rest of the raid alive.

 

Well said

[Boarg]

Clearly, you've never tried to heal each of these in the highest-tier raid content of this game. Guardians are extremely squishy compared to shadows and *especially* compared to vanguards. The math shows this, as do the combat logs and practical experience. In terms of guaranteed mitigation, we (currently) have the following:

 

Vanguards >> Shadows > Guardians

 

I put shadows above guardians because of the self-heal, their health pool and their extremely high shield chance. However, if you want *really* guaranteed mitigation (as in, 100%), then guardians go above shadows. The thing though is that the "really" guaranteed mitigation of guardians has vastly inferior statistical value to the "almost" guaranteed mitigation of shadows.

 

In 1.3, shadows will drop to nearly even with equally-geared guardians in terms of statistical mitigation. Vanguards haven't been touched, which puzzles me a bit, since their guaranteed survivability is already well beyond the other two tanks (statistical survivability is currently in line with shadows).

 

We'll see how this works out. I'm not ready to panic yet. To be honest, I'm not particularly concerned with whether or my spec is statistically "better" or "worse" than the other tank classes. All that matters is I have enough survivability that the healers can keep me up without crippling their ability to keep the rest of the raid alive.

 

I guess I've just been seeing different from Guardians in terms of objective numbers. Either way, I think you're probably safe in terms of being able to complete current content with your Shadow. So far their design philosophy on raid content has been to avoid using the threat of gibbed tanks as a tool for building difficulty into PvE encounters...if that ever changes....

[KeyboardNinja]

I guess I've just been seeing different from Guardians in terms of objective numbers. Either way, I think you're probably safe in terms of being able to complete current content with your Shadow. So far their design philosophy on raid content has been to avoid using the threat of gibbed tanks as a tool for building difficulty into PvE encounters...if that ever changes....

 

Well, there are a *couple* encounters where this sort of thing matters, but in these cases it is largely a matter of comparative cooldowns. Foreman Crusher is a good example of this. Kephess is probably the only encounter that really pushes tanks to their limits in ways that can't be trivially circumvented by cooldowns. I've seen this encounter with all three tank types now, and none of them really had much of a problem (except for the dramatically under-geared vanguard).

 

With that said, I *would* like to see BioWare putting out content that is balanced more tightly with respect to tanking. I don't think they can do it now, because of the ongoing cross-balance issues with tanks, but I feel like they're getting closer. Despite (because of?) the nerfs to shadows, it looks to me like the three tank classes are closer together now than they ever have been before. Vanguards are ahead on the guaranteed mitigation, and guardians are still behind in statistical mitigation, but at least shadows are no longer ahead in *both* categories.

[MimicUnleashed]

With that said, I *would* like to see BioWare putting out content that is balanced more tightly with respect to tanking. I don't think they can do it now, because of the ongoing cross-balance issues with tanks, but I feel like they're getting closer. Despite (because of?) the nerfs to shadows, it looks to me like the three tank classes are closer together now than they ever have been before. Vanguards are ahead on the guaranteed mitigation, and guardians are still behind in statistical mitigation, but at least shadows are no longer ahead in *both* categories.

 

Honestly I'll ride this out for now, but I really want to parse a fight before and after and see how large the hit is before I spout doom and gloom. I will go on record saying that I am worried about the armor reduction. Because in AOE situations when your ward falls you live on armor and defenses. And with armor nerfed decently, it's going to make me clench. I admit. Lord I hope they don't make me tank Sorno either. That rapid fire if no one can kick eats everything.

[BigUten]

The change in the Combat Technique armor just makes me sad. Because it did not only affect PVP it also did affect my already squishy shadow for PVE.